There were plenty of opinions in Northeast Ohio and from Browns fans all over the country that the Browns offense was actually better off without Kellen Winslow being a member of it. Now we will get to find out for sure. With the news that K2 was traded to Tampa Bay on Friday, this quickly became hot topic number one on The Cleveland Fan message boards.
"The Trade Thread" provides an interesting case study in the hopes and expectations of Browns fans. The thread starts out with some of us hoping it was a first round pick, and quickly turns into some being shocked we were able to rob the Buccaneers blind for this "has-been".
osucrazy18 quite possibly sums up the feel of a majority of Browns fans with this take:
"It's not about numbers with winslow, its about lineing up outside the tackle and making a safety stay inside for the fear that if a ball is anywhere close to him hes going to catch it. He's a GRINDER ya i said it and a warrior, the guy simply catches everything. Im dissapointed and glad at the same time, because i hated his attitude off the field but loved it on"
dpdad makes a very good point regarding the constant drama and injuries that come with Kellen Winslow being on your team:
"If it's a second this year and conditional next year, I don't have any problem with this move. K2 is talented, we all know, but I was getting tired of the constant soap opera. Plus I don't think he has more than two or three good years left, given the condition of his knees, and his constant nagging injuries. With Heiden and Rucker the Browns will be OK."
Ziner is one of the loudest voices talking about what it is the Browns actually gave up:
"No he is an elite (I say top 5) because of his performance in 2006 where he lead the league in receptions by TE's and in 2007 when he had a top 3 year. Just because he got staph last year from the Browns effed up facility and had to deal with 2 Qb's and our offensive clusterflip doesnt take away from that fact that he is still elite. At least for a few more years."
Hornet84 wonders if there is not a little bit of an ulterior motive to this deal:
"It looks like ManKok has your attention. It only took one trade to get everyone talking Browns again. I don't know how I feel about this. I think this franchise needs as many draft picks as it can compile. The quick fix is not the answer here. There is some talent , but not enough to challenge next year. KW2 is just another example of what might have been in Cleveland sports history. He was very good , but he could have been so much more."
After debating whether The Browns got enough value for Winslow, we got around to discussing the bigger picture in What Winslow Deal Means. Most importantly, was it a white flag re-re-re-rebuild, or just a single move meant to get the most value out of a particular player?
OSU819903 thinks it is step one:
"Just quick reflection on the trade. I think it signifies a "blow-up" of sorts. I've always leaned this way, but I think DA is for sure gone. If the right deal is there for BE, I think he's gone. I think they're going to try and work it out with Rogers, but if they can't he's gone. And please don't ask me to fill in all the holes that would be created, the thread asked for impressions of what this deal indicates. To me it indicates that they want to stock up and fill the roster with their type of players. All in all, I will take this approach as opposed to trading all of our picks last year for player."
Justmebd believes it is pretty clear:
"This, to me, is clearly the beginning of a rebuild. I also expect DA to be gone very soon (If not by the end of the day). BE goes for the right deal, ManKok aren't going to give him up for middle ground stuff. Rogers is it's own animal but if he's not on board this train, then they'll toss him off. As long as they have a plan (And assuming it's a good one) this could be the start of something good. But that's only about the 10th time we've said that lately."
Hornet84 brings his logic over from the trade thread to offer a different opinion:
"I don't think this signals a rebuild. You traded a TE with a history of injuries and the threat of walking out if he did not get a new contract. Does TE play a big part in Magini's offense? The next few weeks will tell a lot. The owner may be willing to be patient, but the fans are not. I hope ManKok is smart enough to realize that a total rebuild is not acceptable. I understand that the new regime want to put their own stamp on this franchise, but I hope they don't just blow the whole thing up. I am ok with trading K2 and DA, but I would not do a total house cleaning. I am hoping the powers that be are thinking along similar lines."
Newbie el67ko makes a strong first impression:
"K2 is one of my favorites but I don't mind the trade at all. It would be hard for anyone to argue with a straight face that any player on a horrific 4-12 team is the "best player", or indispensible. We saw Kellen's ceiling in 07. He is a good player. But we need many good players to even get back to competitive. Many many good players who don't have their bodies held together with glue and bubblegum. So I say stockpile the draft picks Mankok and lets see what you got in April. Keep the faith boys"
Had you asked me Friday morning, I would have guaranteed this thread would garner top billing. "Big Baby" Shaun Rogers is living up to his nickname all right. It appears like he is not too happy that new Head Coach Eric Mangini has asked him to show up in shape, does not say hi to him every time they pass within a county of each other, and possibly laid off his favorite public relations lady.
BadBecks hits the nail directly on its head about the real problem Shaun is having:
"C'mon guys, he's about to watch Albert Haynesworth get a potential $100 million contract, the team is maybe a hair better than Detroit in terms of competence, and the coach has twice blown the guy off. What would you do if you were in his situation? Remember, he didn't grow up here so pretend we are not talking about a team with Orange helmets for a minute before you answer. Gimme one good reason why he would want to be here right now."
4thquarterglory might have some fortune telling powers we were not aware of, based on his Thursday post:
"On one hand, im thinking "what a big baby Shaun Rodgers is. You play in 16 games a year and make more then 50 middle class families combined. Do your job, listen to your boss, suck it up. On the other hand, "just trade Shaun, Braylon, DA, and K2. Get as many draft picks you can, and gut the hell out of this team. Build thru the draft, the right way. Sure were going to lose for a few more years, but we probably are going to lose with those guys too"
Want to know the sure fire way to know Spring Training has started? Pretty simple, we have a thread called, Miller out. How does the board feel about this?
Chris, "Oh well. We all hoped he'd stay healthy but, the odds were against it."
The Tribe Zone, "The guys an injury waiting for a good time to happen."
Thankfully, CDAV6, lends a voice of reason,
"I love the optimism around here. It is a minor injury and it is way early in camp. If you feel yourselves going into a deep depression think of Josh Beckett. He probably had more injury issues than Miller and I would like to think all of us would like to have Josh in our rotation. Adam has a power arm and most pitchers with this God given talent are more apt to injuries especially when they are young and have inconsistancies in their deliveries. So here's hoping for the best because if he is healthy he gives us the best backend duo in all of baseball imo."
Could the Indians consider moving Grady Sizemore out of centerfield to make room for Michael Brantley some day? It seems like a friend of a friend of a message board poster who read something posted by Brantley's agent that gave this indication.
Dazindiansfanuk seems some sense in the agent maybe saying this:
"In terms of him talking Brantley up as a CFer, well it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest! Brantley is his client, so his job is to pretty much give the best reports possible on Brantleys progress. Add to that the fact that it's likely Brantley is the starting CFer in Columbus this season, then I'm not surprised that Kuschnik is talking him up as staying in CF, if indeed he's actually said anything."
DesertWahoo takes some time to relay a fitting story:
"While at the game on Wed against the Giants, I ran into Brantley's father. Sounds weird I know however it did happen and we got to talking about where he thought Michael will be positioned if/when he gets the promotion to the big club. He was under the impression that the club will be putting him in a corner outfield slot. It was a good conversation with the guy. Had alot of positive things to say aout Matt LaPorta too."
You should definitely take the time to read through the thread, as it provides some solid information about Brantley's defensive abilities and some possible misconceptions people have about him.
Another good thread to read through is Disappointing returns thus far in Goodyear. Don't be alarmed though, it is about the lack of attendance at the first couple of Tribe Spring games. Not about the performance of the Indians playing in those games.
Of course, the big buyout news was Celtics to get Starbury. Does it help them? Hurt them? Both of the options get covered in that thread.
Jfiling gets is rolling:
"Off the bench, he could be a real threat against the second team. I joked earlier this season that I'd have rather gotten Starbury than Vince Carter, but seeing him go to Boston for the minimum (presumably) can't help us."
On the other hand, Noles1, does not think so highly:
"Between this and Mikki it's starting to look a lot like desparation from the Celts..."
Does JordanKramer have an angle for Mike Brown to play off:
"i see all these Celtics moves as them just being scared shitless of the Cavs in a 7-game series. so i guess these moves can be seen as a good thing. if i'm Mike Brown i'm preaching this in the locker room."
Fundamentals fails to see what Cavs fans are so happy about after the acquisition:
"Desperation? It's call attempting to shore up weaknesses. The Celtics have no other true point guard besides Rondo and with Garnett out, they need another "big" to get some minutes although it's been fun for Ralph Malph (Scalabrine) to get into games again. As Peeker said in another thread, if the Cavaliers picked up one of these available guys, he would be heralded as a conquering hero upon his arrival into town."
You can put MadreHillSuperstar firmly in the camp of the Celtics getting what they deserve:
"Maybe KG and Pierce help him find Jesus (Shuttlesworth), and maybe Eric Snow still has a jump shot. Yeah, the C's are trying to shore up a gaping hole behind Rondo, but if there's addition by subtraction there's also subtraction by addition. Mark me as totally not surprised if Marbury offers up some Grade A Quit if/when the C's backs are against the wall."
What will be the Cavs answer to the Starbury acquisition? Why of course, it could be Joe Smith.
Triple-S likes the idea:
"I hope he does. I liked him very much for the short time he was here and him being able to help out us would be awesome."
The Joe Smith thread was quickly derailed when GreatGoo mentioned a few other buyout candidates:
"Potiential names being mentioned. Boozer, Sheed, AI, Marion."
That quickly turns it into a Rasheed or no Rasheed thread.
StewieG, says, quite simply:
"Dear God, no Sheed. Dude is now Donyell Marshall."
The Sheed thing has now taken on a life, and thread of its own. Let's just say, for a guy who was just one of the top vote getters in TCF's Most Disliked, this could get very interesting.
Post of the Week:
This week, we have a rare occasion for post of the week. Since I am a committee of one that nominates and selects the post of the week, the odds of it ever being something that I do not 100% agree with are slim. Not this week. I hate the trade of Kellen Winslow. He was my favorite Brown. However, DrPoove offers up a great take and that even had me think twice about the trade after reading it. Still hate it, but a second thought is way more than I give most things.
"Torn on this. Browns are obviously a worse team today without K2. But if they do get a 2 and a 5 for him by "selling high" isn't that the right thing to do? Isn't that what a lot of us bitched about what Savage did not do last year with the DA non-deal? So if they did the right thing by selling high, got max value and don't botch the picks is that better than keeping K2? Dunno, only time will tell. Personally, I wasn't expecting much, record wise, from the Browns this season. Maybe is it because after three turd sandwiches I want to see a winner before I believe in Take #4. Would K2 have helped in 2009? Yes. Would him being here put us over the top? IMHO, no. DA is gonna be gone so that doesn't affect "reboot status" but if they part ways with Rogers and some other veterans who otherwise would stick around like Shaffer or Tucker (Stallworth does not count) then to me that would trigger a reboot. If they only trade or cut those who are expected; DA, Davis, Stallworth (please); then I wouldn't consider than a reboot. But I still don't expect much in 2009. If that makes sense to anyone."