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An even more bizarre Question

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An even more bizarre Question

Unread postby jb » Fri May 09, 2008 11:57 pm

Is LeBron "great" ?

Or does he just fill a stat line?
I mean, like, Bogey and Becall in "Casablanca" , we'll always have Game 5 in Detroit last year, but I just saw Boozer and Kobe play game 3.

They were "great".

Bron? Not so much.

Those two demanded the rock and got it done in a wage of war for the ages. Bron is just struggling, fronting, putting up CRAP.

Crush me for "what haveyahdone4mel8ly syndrome, but dang. All I know is what I see.

Is Bron George McInnis, Dominique, or Marvin Barnes, or is he really the shizznit?

Are we even allowed to ask?
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Unread postby hermanfontenot » Sat May 10, 2008 12:39 am

Are we seriously going to have this conversation again? The Pistons series didn't put this to bed? It wasn't as if LBJ just showed up for Game 5, he took over Games 3 & 4 too.

Did you see what Boozer did in the first two games of that series?
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Unread postby buckeye319 » Sat May 10, 2008 4:43 am

What. the. f*ck.
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Unread postby pup » Sat May 10, 2008 8:31 am

:x :mad: :-x :x :mad: :-x :x :mad: :-x :x :mad: :-x

Brotha. You take too many Papa Johns 23 centers to the head Thursday? Maybe?

Take the 8 playoff teams left.

Trade Bron for their best player, staight up.

Bron wins A) MVP, B) Title. This year.
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Unread postby jb » Sat May 10, 2008 10:10 am

HermanFontenot wrote:Are we seriously going to have this conversation again? The Pistons series didn't put this to bed? It wasn't as if LBJ just showed up for Game 5, he took over Games 3 & 4 too.

Did you see what Boozer did in the first two games of that series?


Yes. Bron had a game against Detroit last year.

Like Bernard King in the day.

The he did diddly vs the Spurs. We blamed eh'ryone but Bron.

Can you tell me he is great this playoff year?

Again, the dif here is that I'm asking and thinking. Not concluding. But I am open to the aknowledging the data points Bron is now putting up. You all are reflexive and reacting, and perhaps even protesting too much. I would say putting your hands over yer ears and yelling "LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU", but that would be too combative. :P :-P :razz:

Two - three sentance replies.

Bron is not above critique.

I saw Rick Berry in 74.

I saw MJ in the 90's.

Scottie Pippin. 50 greatest. Bitchces please. Z would be, too, if Bron were MJ.

I know what one man with surrounding mediocrity can do.

A cast of Z , Walleye, Gibson as John Paxson/Steve Kerr redux, let alone a former all NBA defender like Wallace when healthy, and Wallace in not THAT bad.

Some y'all act like he plays for the DC Generals.

So I say again to those with open minds:

Are we even allowed to ask?

If your answer to that question is "no", let the thread die then.
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Unread postby hermanfontenot » Sat May 10, 2008 10:40 am

We can ask any question here. Even absurd ones. :P :-P :razz:

It's just your post smacks of knee-jerkism.

The series isn't over yet. It isn't time to make these kinds of assessments yet. It's been two games on the road, two games Boston was expected to win and should have won. I know LeBron has been awful so far. You don't see me here blaming the supporting cast or Mike Brown. He's the superstar, he should take the responsibility, fair or not.

You bring up Carlos Boozer in the Lake Show series, well he was pretty much a non-entity in the first two games out in L.A. before he got his shit together in Game 3. Everybody struggles. Magic committed, what, 35 turnovers in the '84 Finals? As close as that series was, you could make an argument that he was primarily responsible for the Lake Show losing.

Well... MJ didn't struggle. Everyone knows he was perfect and never missed a shot or a free throw (except the ones that could have put away the '89 series v. the Cavs in Game 4) or committed a turnover or made a bad decision on the court. :roll :roll:

You have to make the call- is the real LeBron James the LeBron of the last four games of the Detroit series, or is he the LeBron of the first two games of this series? I know what I think. I've seen the man be great too many times to think otherwise.

But if you want to stand by with a shovel to bury LBJ every single time he doesn't perform up to the standards of the immortals, hey... rock out witchur cock out.
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Unread postby osucrazy18 » Sat May 10, 2008 11:07 am

ya no jb your usually pretty smart
but your completely off the wall here
we'll see after tonight, then u can start talking
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Unread postby leadpipe » Sat May 10, 2008 12:19 pm

He's great.

Take the filled stat lines and throw them out.

If you can't see how great a player is by WATCHING him, I'm not sure what there is to say.

So, you are certainly entitled to ask, but you can't stop any sane person from considering it a stupid question.
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Unread postby peeker643 » Sat May 10, 2008 1:04 pm

HermanFontenot wrote:We can ask any question here. Even absurd ones. :P :-P :razz:

It's just your post smacks of knee-jerkism.

The series isn't over yet. It isn't time to make these kinds of assessments yet. It's been two games on the road, two games Boston was expected to win and should have won. I know LeBron has been awful so far. You don't see me here blaming the supporting cast or Mike Brown. He's the superstar, he should take the responsibility, fair or not.

You bring up Carlos Boozer in the Lake Show series, well he was pretty much a non-entity in the first two games out in L.A. before he got his shit together in Game 3. Everybody struggles. Magic committed, what, 35 turnovers in the '84 Finals? As close as that series was, you could make an argument that he was primarily responsible for the Lake Show losing.

Well... MJ didn't struggle. Everyone knows he was perfect and never missed a shot or a free throw (except the ones that could have put away the '89 series v. the Cavs in Game 4) or committed a turnover or made a bad decision on the court. :roll :roll:

You have to make the call- is the real LeBron James the LeBron of the last four games of the Detroit series, or is he the LeBron of the first two games of this series? I know what I think. I've seen the man be great too many times to think otherwise.

But if you want to stand by with a shovel to bury LBJ every single time he doesn't perform up to the standards of the immortals, hey... rock out witchur cock out.


What he said. I certainly haven't said it like that but that's the moneyball. Except the 'cock out' part. Keep that where it goes. 8) :cool: 8-)
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Unread postby Lubber » Sat May 10, 2008 2:09 pm

He could have 2 more terrible games against the Celtics and he will still be "great".

You are comparing him to Bernard King? King could score, but he averaged like 6 rebounds a game, and under 4 assists per game

It is tough to score when you are playing one-on-five.
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Unread postby jb » Sat May 10, 2008 2:39 pm

HermanFontenot wrote:We can ask any question here. Even absurd ones. :P :-P :razz:

It's just your post smacks of knee-jerkism.

The series isn't over yet. It isn't time to make these kinds of assessments yet. It's been two games on the road, two games Boston was expected to win and should have won. I know LeBron has been awful so far. You don't see me here blaming the supporting cast or Mike Brown. He's the superstar, he should take the responsibility, fair or not.

You bring up Carlos Boozer in the Lake Show series, well he was pretty much a non-entity in the first two games out in L.A. before he got his shit together in Game 3. Everybody struggles. Magic committed, what, 35 turnovers in the '84 Finals? As close as that series was, you could make an argument that he was primarily responsible for the Lake Show losing.

Well... MJ didn't struggle. Everyone knows he was perfect and never missed a shot or a free throw (except the ones that could have put away the '89 series v. the Cavs in Game 4) or committed a turnover or made a bad decision on the court. :roll :roll:

You have to make the call- is the real LeBron James the LeBron of the last four games of the Detroit series, or is he the LeBron of the first two games of this series? I know what I think. I've seen the man be great too many times to think otherwise.

But if you want to stand by with a shovel to bury LBJ every single time he doesn't perform up to the standards of the immortals, hey... rock out witchur cock out.


Not burying him yet. But to those with Bron's talents the comparisons w/ the very, very best will always be there. They should be.

Not sure if you've noticed but the is L e B R O N J A M E S we're talking about.

Bron has no legacy yet fellas. He's an open book, a blank canvas.

The irony I really see here is that I'm not concluding anything. Those who have him in Springfield already are.

Right now his post season legacy is regressing. It is far from final, tho. I know that.

I recall media peeps burying Magic in '86.

Right now I'm Wesley and yer all Woody but FUDU. You are listening to Jimi but you ainn't hearing Jimi.
Last edited by jb on Sat May 10, 2008 2:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread postby jb » Sat May 10, 2008 2:41 pm

lubber wrote:He could have 2 more terrible games against the Celtics and he will still be "great".

You are comparing him to Bernard King? King could score, but he averaged like 6 rebounds a game, and under 4 assists per game

It is tough to score when you are playing one-on-five.


Do not concur. Bron's getting his shots. Even he says so. They aren't falling. Now. In the clutch. Why?

That's all I'm asking.
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Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Sat May 10, 2008 3:31 pm

Right now I'm Wesley and yer all Woody but FUDU. You are listening to Jimi but you ainn't hearing Jimi.


Wow.... A "White Men Cant Jump" refrence. +1 sir.
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Unread postby FUDU » Sat May 10, 2008 4:12 pm

IMO this question is fine, just incomplete, similar to LeBron's game.

Is he great...at ________ (fill in the blank)?

He IS great at impacting how often the basketball goes through the hoop, by being a great scorer (but as we're witnessing right now with a more limited range of attack), by being very unselfish and finding his mates and understanding the basketball side of that approach, by being able to play inspired D at times taking rebounds and steals..all of which fill stat lines at unprecedented balance.

He is great at many of these things but there are some quirks in his game that really add validity to the original question. There are two glaring flaws in his game that players of his talent/style/position have all acquired or had naturally, the ability to square up and consistently hit open jump shots and make free throws. Making FTs is a fundamental of shooting and shooting well (at least within one's range when open) is a borderline fundamental of basketball. He has not conquered the latter yet, he looks like he's come close from Nov 1 to May 1 but he is still not there yet. Other greats had to work at learning that trade as well, and LeBron probably will to but until he does he might not be great at winning, and what will make him truly great at winning isn't the shots falling it will be the recognition of the need and the hard work that gets him to that point. This is something that he needs an off season to cure, he cannot remedy this on the go in live action (could/can other great players?)

I consider him great, b/c on any given day he can and is, but when somebody comes along and takes Pittsburgh Steelers straight forward approach and says this is what we are going to let you do and not let you do Lebron and he cannot overcome that then the wavering of one's confidence in him (meaning us the fans) is warranted.

I'm betting he has a great great game in him before this series is over, but also betting another game similar to gm1 or 2 is not out of the question.
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Unread postby swerb » Sat May 10, 2008 4:25 pm

It's a loaded question and a flawed argument.

Define "great". Is having jewelry a prerequisite? Is Jordan the bar?

Cause I know this. Kobe wouldn't have won a sausage with this Cavs team last year had he been in Brons place. And we wouldn't be any better this season with Kobe in place of Bron.

LeBron James is the best player in the NBA right now. To me, that's great. And to make this argument down 0-2 after two poor games, it's weak. Let the artist finish his painting before you tear it to shit. Especially in the wake of last seasons playoff performance, where The King came back from a very poor first two games against the Pistons, who believe it or not, were just as big of favorites to beat the Cavs last year as the Celtics were this year. He was spectacular four straight. Four straight wins against a heavily favored opponent.

Im not making excuses, but lets be honest here. He has the weakest supporting cast of any of the great stars left. A head coach that knows as much about offensive schemes and adjustments as I do about sewing a fucking quilt. And hes playing one of the greatest defensive teams I've seen in a long time, and hasn't even played a game at home against em.

Come on now.

Even mentioning LeBron's name in the same sentence as Carlos Boozer and Bernard King is a joke. It makes the LeSettle takes look prophetic.

Dudes jumper has been off for a couple games. It happens. Happened to Mike. Happens to Kobe. It will happen to LeBron again.

My guess is that LeBron will do what he always does over the next week. Blame no one but himself, rise up, excel, and carry this team on his back to get back in the series against a team, on paper, they have no business winning more than one game against.

And make this take look really, really bad.

The same way he made all the similar takes after game two vs Detroit look last season.
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Unread postby FUDU » Sat May 10, 2008 4:28 pm

nm
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Unread postby Madre Hill, Superstar » Sat May 10, 2008 5:04 pm

JB, Professional Ledger. If Lebron has any flaw, its that he's a point forward in an offense that needs a point guard. And that's more of a shared flaw between him and Mike Brown, to be honest.

(Maybe its time for Danny 'n Mike to ditch the San Antonio system and bring in a Tex Winter disciple to run the offense.)
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Unread postby leadpipe » Sat May 10, 2008 11:33 pm

I'd be willing to bet that in the history of the game, nobody will have created more wide open shots for his teammates. As Mark Jackson stated today, and his quote was the exact same as Hubie Brown's a few weeks back, "Lebron James is one of the finest passers this game has ever seen." When you combine his passing skill with the permanent double teams caused by his scoring ability, you are getting a different animal. So, right now he is GREAT in a number of facets. There are some things he's not great at. But right now, at age 23, I'll take a guy who is a GREAT scorer, a GREAT transition player (will probably be the best of all-time here playing with a good guard) a GREAT passer - along with an uncanny ability to make GREAT decisions by getting the ball to the correxct man, and, to top it off, he's STILL GETTING BETTER.

His junmper isn't there, but it's improving. His defense wasn't good a few years back, now he's on the doorstep of all defensive teams.

He drops dead today - he's great.
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Unread postby cmstophe » Sun May 11, 2008 2:58 am

Yes, he is. Dumb thread.

BTW, no one man can win a title by himself. The Cavaliers will win the NBA Championship once they get LeBron another All Star caliber player to team with (or even better, two more)

You will see the one night in the playoffs where Kobe did not have a good game (used relatively), Gasol had a huge game. That is how it works in the NBA. Your superstar must have help.
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Re: An even more bizarre Question

Unread postby diminishingskills » Sun May 11, 2008 8:39 pm

JB wrote:Is LeBron "great" ? Or does he just fill a stat line?
I mean, like, Bogey and Becall in "Casablanca" , we'll always have Game 5 in Detroit last year, but I just saw Boozer and Kobe play game 3.

They were "great". Bron? Not so much. Those two demanded the rock and got it done in a wage of war for the ages. Bron is just struggling, fronting, putting up CRAP.

Is Bron George McInnis, Dominique, or Marvin Barnes, or is he really the shizznit?

Are we even allowed to ask?


JB, JB, JB.

First you leave your "I'm Rick James, Bitch!" hat at home for Guys' Night Out at the Tribe game, now this. You got a blazing fastball, and yet you're throwing these weak curves toward the plate. You're better than this. It's painful, it really is. It's like watching the Boss play a dinner theater in the Catskills and reminding folks to "tip their waiter" just before launching into Born to Run.

Can you do me a favor, and tell me what Kobe had accomplished by age 23? Or what he has accomplished, period? He wasn't even the best player on his own TEAM when he won his hardware, as the Diesel was still running strong then. Let's see what he can do when he's kicking out passes to the Donyell Marshalls of the world. Oh wait, he did do that -- it's called 2004-2007. How many memorable high-profile playoff games did he have then?

And Benedict Boozer ... you're seriously gonna leapfrog him over Bron based on one good playoff game? Dude is next in the line of second-tier stars who can take the Mormons to the playoffs, maybe even win a series or two, and then exit stage left. And his wife pussy-whips him in a way that Jackie Christie can only hope to achieve someday.

It's not a matter of being "allowed" to ask the question. Of course you can ask. That doesn't make it a good question.

Let's not worry about whether The King is the "next" MJ or Kobe or Nique or whatever, and enjoy him for being the FIRST LeBron James.
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Unread postby FUDU » Sun May 11, 2008 9:27 pm

Can you do me a favor, and tell me what Kobe had accomplished by age 23? Or what he has accomplished, period? He wasn't even the best player on his own TEAM when he won his hardware, as the Diesel was still running strong then. Let's see what he can do when he's kicking out passes to the Donyell Marshalls of the world. Oh wait, he did do that -- it's called 2004-2007. How many memorable high-profile playoff games did he have then?


Completely unfair and undo able comparison b/c Kobe played very very little compared to LeBron in his first two seasons, however Kobe was a better outside shooter than Lebron right out of the gate.

I will save the Kobe Lebron comparison discussion for another time, but I have not often been of the opinion Kobe is better than LeBron, I am leaning toward changing my mind on that right now though.

But for this discussion and its relevance to our current series I do believe Kobe would have done more for the Cavaliers success in games 1 and 2 as opposed to Lebron. The reason I say this is b/c the Celtics took away LeBron's trump card leaving him to rely on a part of his game that is very inconsistent and unpolished, outside shooting. Kobe while not THE best outside shooter is considerably more reliable taking jump shots from the 12-23' range than LeBron is. That ability would have had a significant impact on the meat of game 2. Also Kobe has a lot more experience at the pressure of being the man and saving a game. In hindsight I would rather of had Kobe in game 2 than LeBron.
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Unread postby Lubber » Sun May 11, 2008 10:35 pm

How is that unfair?
They both went right to the NBA from high school.

Kobe still played in 71 games and 79 games in his 1st two years. Just because he did not rack up as many minutes as LeBron is a testimony to both how great LeBron is and also to his lack of supporting cast.

Tim Duncan is a great player, he has some MVP trophies. Do you think the Cavs win as many games the last 3 years with Tim instead of LeBron? I do not think so.
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Unread postby Guest » Mon May 12, 2008 2:22 am

Is LeBron "great" ?

Or does he just fill a stat line?
I mean, like, Bogey and Becall in "Casablanca" , we'll always have Game 5 in Detroit last year, but I just saw Boozer and Kobe play game 3.


JB... you're so wrong on this.

Bacall wasn't in Casablanca. Bergman was.

And you're probably wrong on that other thing too.
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Unread postby diminishingskills » Mon May 12, 2008 6:46 am

In hindsight I would rather of had Kobe in game 2 than LeBron.


Shit, I would have rather had Derrick Chievous in Game Two than LeBron. We don't prove a thing by cherry-picking one of the worst games of a guy's career and then wondering who could have done better.

The trap that JB fell into -- and now you've joined him -- is in comparing a 23 year old LeBron to a 29 year old Kobe, or to retired guys whose complete careers are already known (like the other names JB mentioned). If we're really gonna compare players, then we need to control for as many variables as possible. Scientific method and all that.

And one of the biggest variables is age. It's simply not fair to compare LeBron to Kobe. If you want to make it fair, then compare LeBron to what Kobe had accomplished by age 23. (Or MJ, or Magic, or whoever your point of reference is.) There's no way that any 23 year old superstar could compare with the body of work for a 29 year old superstar ... or with the career of a Hall of Famer.
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Re: An even more bizarre Question

Unread postby jb » Mon May 12, 2008 12:05 pm

see below
Last edited by jb on Mon May 12, 2008 12:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: An even more bizarre Question

Unread postby jb » Mon May 12, 2008 12:10 pm

JB wrote:
DiminishingSkills wrote:
JB wrote:Is LeBron "great" ? Or does he just fill a stat line?
I mean, like, Bogey and Becall in "Casablanca" , we'll always have Game 5 in Detroit last year, but I just saw Boozer and Kobe play game 3.

They were "great". Bron? Not so much. Those two demanded the rock and got it done in a wage of war for the ages. Bron is just struggling, fronting, putting up CRAP.

Is Bron George McInnis, Dominique, or Marvin Barnes, or is he really the shizznit?

Are we even allowed to ask?


JB, JB, JB.

First you leave your "I'm Rick James, Bitch!" hat at home for Guys' Night Out at the Tribe game, now this. You got a blazing fastball, and yet you're throwing these weak curves toward the plate. You're better than this. It's painful, it really is. It's like watching the Boss play a dinner theater in the Catskills and reminding folks to "tip their waiter" just before launching into Born to Run.

Can you do me a favor, and tell me what Kobe had accomplished by age 23? Or what he has accomplished, period? He wasn't even the best player on his own TEAM when he won his hardware, as the Diesel was still running strong then. Let's see what he can do when he's kicking out passes to the Donyell Marshalls of the world. Oh wait, he did do that -- it's called 2004-2007. How many memorable high-profile playoff games did he have then?

And Benedict Boozer ... you're seriously gonna leapfrog him over Bron based on one good playoff game? Dude is next in the line of second-tier stars who can take the Mormons to the playoffs, maybe even win a series or two, and then exit stage left. And his wife pussy-whips him in a way that Jackie Christie can only hope to achieve someday.

It's not a matter of being "allowed" to ask the question. Of course you can ask. That doesn't make it a good question.

Let's not worry about whether The King is the "next" MJ or Kobe or Nique or whatever, and enjoy him for being the FIRST LeBron James.


Etc etc etc...

Got it.

I should expect a young Shawn Kemp, and should not hold Bron up to the yardstick of greatness.

Is that what I am to understand?

Psssst - Isn't he a 5 year vet by now? Dawg - come correct. Bron is a finished product by now. In another few years that raw athleticsm will strat to be a "diminishing skill". His window is wide ass open now.

Again, this is only for thse who wanna play, not those who wanna shout down. This isn't the old school PFB or anything, but frankly, freak your two line non-analysis (unless you are correcting me on Casblanca) . I got no use for it. I say that generally, not at this point you raise , DS.

Let me ask you this: do you yourself think if Bron himself was asked the question "Have you played "great" consistently during this year's playoffs" he'd say "yes" ?

I have a hard time believeing it.

I am not saying Bron isn't a great player who fills up a stat line, but I have watched playoff basketball for one or two years now. I may not know hoops X's and O's and nuance like some, but I know all-time postseason greatness. We withneesed it, to coin a phrase, in Detroit last spring.

It may be unrealistic to expect that all the time. Magic couldn't do that. Larry didn't do that. MJ most often did that. I'm not saying he should, although MJ came damn close.

But I haven't seen Bron do it enough yet for the talent he posessses this off season, and my $ 0.02 is that the taent around him now isn't THAT bad. I think people exaggerate how bad the team is. The problem is it is so jump-shot oriented now it is inconsistent.

But all in all, in NBA season 5, with Finals' experience, forget chronological age when it comes to this guy, he's not playing "great" this playoff searies. Vs DC, even he admitted he blew game 5 at home down the stretch.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?playerId=1966

Stat line - same as RS vs DC , badly dipping vs Boston. My DC game 5 take is subjective. That he is not playing as well as ha should, and certainly not great vs Boston, should be met with "water is wet" reaction, not a bunch of politbureau members suggesting I just erased the mustache of Stalin.

If you read that as fan damnation of the man, you couldn't be more off in communicating w/ me. The foacl point in analysis will always be the focal point, and Bron is obviously the focal point. If this forum is limited to cheerleading, then eff it. Bail on analystical threads if you want.

I have no idea whatsoever why this is even controversial.

And while Boozer is no LeBron James, his efort vs LA the other night was "greater" than anything I've seen out of James this post season. That is what it is at face value for that data point.

And for as much as you want to vilify Mr CeCe, and I don't belame you, there is no doubt he's the talent that is now missing.

We should have paid him and increased his role in the offense and acted as agents act. That collosal blunder makes cutting Brandon Phillpps look like releasing Julian Tavares.
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Re: An even more bizarre Question

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Mon May 12, 2008 12:24 pm

JB wrote:
Etc etc etc...

Got it.

I should expect a young Shawn Kemp, and should not hold Bron up to the yardstick of greatness.

Is that what I am to understand?

( Psssst - Isn't he a 5 year vet by now? )

Let me ask you this: do you yourself think if Bron himself was asked the question "Have you played "great" consistently during this year's playoffs" he'd say "yes" ?

I have a hard time believeing it.

I am not saying Bron isn't a great player who fills up a stat line, but I have watched playoff basketball for one or two years now. I may not know hoops X's and O's and nuance like some, but I know all-time postseason greatness. We withneesed it, to coin a phrase, in Detroit last spring.

It may be unrealistic to expect that all the time. Magic couldn't do that. Larry didn't do that. MJ most often did that.

But I haven't seen Bron do it enough yet for the talent he posessses, and my $ 0.02 is that the taent around him now isn't THAT bad. I think people exaggerate how bad the team is. The problem is it is so jump-shot oriented now it is inconsistent.

But all in all, in NBA season 5, with Finals' experience, forget chronological age when it comes to this guy, he's not playing "great" this playoff searies. Vs DC, even he admitted he blew game 5 at home down the stretch.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?playerId=1966

If you read that as fan damnation of the man, you couldn't be more off in communicating w/ me. The foacl point in analysis will always be the focal point, and Bron is obviously the focal point. If this forum is limited to cheerleading, then eff it. Bail on analystical threads if you want.

I have no idea whatsoever why this is even controversial.

And while Boozer is no LeBron James, his efort vs LA the other night was "greater" than anything I've seen out of James this post season. That is what it is at face value for that data point.

And for as much as you want to vilify Mr CeCe, and I don't belame you, there is no doubt he's the talent that is now missing.

We should have paid him and increased his role in the offense and acted as agents act. That collosal blunder makes cutting Brandon Phillpps look like releasing Julian Tavares.


I swear you wrote this exact same post after game two against the Pistons last year.

It's becoming annual and predictable.

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Re: An even more bizarre Question

Unread postby jb » Mon May 12, 2008 12:32 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:
JB wrote:
Etc etc etc...

Got it.

I should expect a young Shawn Kemp, and should not hold Bron up to the yardstick of greatness.

Is that what I am to understand?

( Psssst - Isn't he a 5 year vet by now? )

Let me ask you this: do you yourself think if Bron himself was asked the question "Have you played "great" consistently during this year's playoffs" he'd say "yes" ?

I have a hard time believeing it.

I am not saying Bron isn't a great player who fills up a stat line, but I have watched playoff basketball for one or two years now. I may not know hoops X's and O's and nuance like some, but I know all-time postseason greatness. We withneesed it, to coin a phrase, in Detroit last spring.

It may be unrealistic to expect that all the time. Magic couldn't do that. Larry didn't do that. MJ most often did that.

But I haven't seen Bron do it enough yet for the talent he posessses, and my $ 0.02 is that the taent around him now isn't THAT bad. I think people exaggerate how bad the team is. The problem is it is so jump-shot oriented now it is inconsistent.

But all in all, in NBA season 5, with Finals' experience, forget chronological age when it comes to this guy, he's not playing "great" this playoff searies. Vs DC, even he admitted he blew game 5 at home down the stretch.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?playerId=1966

If you read that as fan damnation of the man, you couldn't be more off in communicating w/ me. The foacl point in analysis will always be the focal point, and Bron is obviously the focal point. If this forum is limited to cheerleading, then eff it. Bail on analystical threads if you want.

I have no idea whatsoever why this is even controversial.

And while Boozer is no LeBron James, his efort vs LA the other night was "greater" than anything I've seen out of James this post season. That is what it is at face value for that data point.

And for as much as you want to vilify Mr CeCe, and I don't belame you, there is no doubt he's the talent that is now missing.

We should have paid him and increased his role in the offense and acted as agents act. That collosal blunder makes cutting Brandon Phillpps look like releasing Julian Tavares.


I swear you wrote this exact same post after game two against the Pistons last year.

It's becoming annual and predictable.

Just sayin'


If that is so, let's see him have at it.

Again, no one seems to ahve the slightest clue what I am saying about "Post Season Greatness" but FUDU. I am talking about the shit the nation will be discuiing in a decade, not really good stats.

Maybe it is too vague and esoteric for writing.

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Unread postby FUDU » Mon May 12, 2008 12:38 pm

DiminishingSkills wrote:
In hindsight I would rather of had Kobe in game 2 than LeBron.


Shit, I would have rather had Derrick Chievous in Game Two than LeBron. We don't prove a thing by cherry-picking one of the worst games of a guy's career and then wondering who could have done better.

The trap that JB fell into -- and now you've joined him -- is in comparing a 23 year old LeBron to a 29 year old Kobe, or to retired guys whose complete careers are already known (like the other names JB mentioned). If we're really gonna compare players, then we need to control for as many variables as possible. Scientific method and all that.

And one of the biggest variables is age. It's simply not fair to compare LeBron to Kobe. If you want to make it fair, then compare LeBron to what Kobe had accomplished by age 23. (Or MJ, or Magic, or whoever your point of reference is.) There's no way that any 23 year old superstar could compare with the body of work for a 29 year old superstar ... or with the career of a Hall of Famer.


My point about rather having Kobe in game 2 was about rather having his game and pedigree than about having number 24, if that makes any sense to you. Kobe's game on offense has more outs, when prohibited from doing what he does best (which is getting to the rim or hitting 6 footers) he can call on plan B (take what the D is giving him and knock the deep shot down), LeBron cannot do that to the point of whenever he wants to to have an impact.

While I agree with your point about comparing players I already showed you that one cannot compare Kobe and LeBron simply by what they did at or by LeBron's current age. Kobe simply didn't play enough and wasn't needed as much or rushed into things with such a full load of responsibility as Lebron. LeBron was saving a franchise the moment he graduated HS, Kobe wasn't, it is relevant.

But having said that we can compare the two in the sense that they are at the top of the food chain in the NBA and have been there done that. LeBron doesn't get a free pass b/c he is 23 and Kobe is 30. LeBron is a veteran, he's been doing this for 5 years now. There are no surprises as to what is expected from him on or off the court. Him not having help is not the news of the day anymore. So he has to live and die by the fact that in his 5th year, 3rd go round in the playoffs, in which he has dazzled all on his own in the past, to the tune of the Finals, that he will be held accountable when it all goes south. Why ?,b/c it is all on him, it is every other day of the year whether somebody else scores 25 or not, when that happens it is all b/c of Lebron. So when it doesn't happen it why wouldn't it be on him?

When LeBron is heads up against Kobe we don't hear excuses/reasoning either way about age or tenure, it's superstar v superstar, possible greatest ever v possible greatest ever...they are on the same level no matter how high that level is compared to the rest of the league. Kobe isn't 30 when he goes 0-3 in the 4th in Gund Arena, Kobe was guarded by Lebron when that happens. When LeBron goes through 4 defenders on his way to a dunk it isn't that he is still 23 able to do that and Kobe once could, it's b/c he has been that talented for 7 years running.

LeBron has game, but on the side of the ball in which the Cavaliers need the most help his game is open to criticism when compared to a Kobe at this time of season.

It's not about jumping off the bandwagon to try to save face and heartbreak from another Cleveland sports disappointment when calling him out. It's about the fact that our man, THE MAN, is looking conquerable in a situation when he is needed more than ever and a situation which greatness thrives on and is defined.
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Unread postby jb » Mon May 12, 2008 12:43 pm

My point about rather having Kobe in game 2 was about rather having his game and pedigree than about having number 24, if that makes any sense to you. Kobe's game on offense has more outs, when prohibited from doing what he does best (which is getting to the rim or hitting 6 footers) he can call on plan B (take what the D is giving him and knock the deep shot down), LeBron cannot do that.


I think he can.

He's just not doing it now.

Why?

And it isn't all Boston's D or that he allegedly has no surrounding talent when he has 4 former all stars playing with him plus West and Boobie who are soild role players.

SSB can sprain his ankle any time now, tho..
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Unread postby FUDU » Mon May 12, 2008 12:45 pm

I edited that take (one line) to be more accurate and fair, reread.
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Re: An even more bizarre Question

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Mon May 12, 2008 1:18 pm

JB wrote:
If that is so, let's see him have at it.

Again, no one seems to ahve the slightest clue what I am saying about "Post Season Greatness" but FUDU. I am talking about the shit the nation will be discuiing in a decade, not really good stats.

Maybe it is too vague and esoteric for writing.

I remain Wesley.


JB, I don't think a single person will argue that he played poorly in games 1 and 2 and just above average in game three.

I think the problem people are having with your takes here is that the read like you are speaking absolutes. The face value of your takes is "LBJ chokes in the playoffs." LBJ has shown stints of greatness in the playoffs at a younger age than just about anyone else. There are and were bound to be bumps in the road, and he deserves criticism. This entire mess started not because of people criticising LBJ, but because people were melting all over the boards Tree on Timmuh style.

You want people to cede that he has struggled and that is a fair point. However, jumping to judge a guy in the middle of a series (and when you started it was a series that he had not played a home game in) at age 23 for two bad games and a bad series against the spurs with the worst teams in the history of the NBA finals is a bit much.

Ride out this series, collect a few more data points, then we can talk. Kobe has had games like this annually in the playoffs, he just has never done it on back to back night (this coming from a coworker from LA that worships Kobe).

FUDU and you both want to talk before it is time to talk, that is the issue. Just like last year after game two when LBJ came back and won 4 straight by himself.
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Unread postby e0y2e3 » Mon May 12, 2008 1:25 pm

Psssst - Isn't he a 5 year vet by now? Dawg - come correct. Bron is a finished product by now. In another few years that raw athleticsm will strat to be a "diminishing skill". His window is wide ass open now.

And on this JB, come on man.... DS is right you are better than that.

Kobe lost his athleticism and perfected his jumper and is a much better player today because of it. LBJ is not a finished product at all, his jumper is not near where it will be later. LBJ can afford to lose some athleticism if his shot becomes a dagger.

The above quote is just way out there whack man.
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Unread postby mattvan1 » Mon May 12, 2008 1:41 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:Psssst - Isn't he a 5 year vet by now? Dawg - come correct. Bron is a finished product by now. In another few years that raw athleticsm will strat to be a "diminishing skill". His window is wide ass open now.

And on this JB, come on man.... DS is right you are better than that.

Kobe lost his athleticism and perfected his jumper and is a much better player today because of it. LBJ is not a finished product at all, his jumper is not near where it will be later. LBJ can afford to lose some athleticism if his shot becomes a dagger.

The above quote is just way out there whack man.


MJ was a finished product the 3 years the Bulls got thumped by the Pistons. It took a coaching change, an offense designed specifically to help share the load, and a migraine-free Pippen before MJ broke thru.
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Re: An even more bizarre Question

Unread postby jb » Mon May 12, 2008 1:44 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:
JB wrote:
If that is so, let's see him have at it.

Again, no one seems to ahve the slightest clue what I am saying about "Post Season Greatness" but FUDU. I am talking about the shit the nation will be discuiing in a decade, not really good stats.

Maybe it is too vague and esoteric for writing.

I remain Wesley.


JB, I don't think a single person will argue that he played poorly in games 1 and 2 and just above average in game three.

I think the problem people are having with your takes here is that the read like you are speaking absolutes. The face value of your takes is "LBJ chokes in the playoffs." LBJ has shown stints of greatness in the playoffs at a younger age than just about anyone else. There are and were bound to be bumps in the road, and he deserves criticism. This entire mess started not because of people criticising LBJ, but because people were melting all over the boards Tree on Timmuh style.

You want people to cede that he has struggled and that is a fair point. However, jumping to judge a guy in the middle of a series (and when you started it was a series that he had not played a home game in) at age 23 for two bad games and a bad series against the spurs with the worst teams in the history of the NBA finals is a bit much.

Ride out this series, collect a few more data points, then we can talk. Kobe has had games like this annually in the playoffs, he just has never done it on back to back night (this coming from a coworker from LA that worships Kobe).

FUDU and you both want to talk before it is time to talk, that is the issue. Just like last year after game two when LBJ came back and won 4 straight by himself.


Lee, you've helped me understand the disconnect better.

However, I do categorically deny having inferred or actually written any of the things below. If I did, cut n paste:

* the read like you are speaking absolutes.

* "LBJ chokes in the playoffs."

Here is what I did infer and write:

* He played poorly in games 1 and 2.

So far, Bron is not neing great, nor even consistent for this playoff year. He's had stretches of very good.

Show me where I was : melting all over the boards Tree on Timmuh style.

And while I concur with: Ride out this series, collect a few more data points, then we can talk.

All I was doing was offering up what is really a most sound observation about his post season play this far.

Here is the one thing you wrote that I do not agree with : he deserves criticism.

Nope. The majority of counter takes was reflexive knee jerking syllogisms of "Bron is a great player, therefore he is always great".

Bull crap. So far he's yet to be "great" this post season given the expectations he has upon him.

He had the chance to put DC away at home and turned it into a 1 : 1 contest where he missed all his shots. Then came a team blow out in which he played his usual signifiant roll, but everyone stepped it up. The jumpshots were all falling.

Game one vs Boston, many players stepped it up. Bron plays anywhere near normal and we're up 1 - 0. No one can really dispute that IMO. Game 2 he and everyone laid an egg. Game 3, I understand it was so-so for Bron, West shined, and a few other good efforts.

So thus far, I've seen great. I know great. Great right now, Bron ain't. It is a regression of his "great" vs Detroit. Just more data points on an evaluation I won't finalize for another decade, probably.

Like I said elsewhere, I truly doubt the man himself would disagree.

So how all of this is whack on my part? Nope. No way.


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Re: An even more bizarre Question

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Mon May 12, 2008 1:50 pm

JB, you've never melted Tree style, I was talking about the ridiculousness that occured in the game threads... you were entirely seperate from that grouping. However, I do think it influenced how people have taken your criticism here.

As far as how your takes are reading, I getchya and see where you are coming from, I just also see people consistently taking you the wrong way. How you read and what you meant are not one in the same, you know this.

JB wrote:
All I was doing was offering up what is really a most sound observation about his post season play this far.

Here is the one thing you wrote that I do not agree with : he deserves criticism.

Nope. The majority of counter takes was reflexive knee jerking syllogisms of "Bron is a great player, therefore he is always great".

Bull crap. So far he's yet to be "great" this post season given the expectations he has upon him.

He had the chance to put DC away at home and turned it into a 1 : 1 contest where he missed all his shots. Then came a team blow out in which he played his usual signifiant roll, but everyone stepped it up. The jumpshots were all falling.

Game one vs Boston, many players stepped it up. Bron plays anywhere near normal and we're up 1 - 0. No one can really dispute that IMO. Game 2 he and everyone laid an egg. Game 3, I understand it was so-so for Bron, West shined, and a few other good efforts.

So thus far, I've seen great. I know great. Great right now, Bron ain't. It is a regression of his "great" vs Detroit. Just more data points on an evaluation I won't finalize for another decade, probably.

Like I said elsewhere, I truly doubt the man himself would disagree.

So how all of this is whack on my part? Nope. No way.




I agree with everything you wrote above. He does need to be great this post season at some point or it is a wasted year and opens the door for questions going into the playoffs next year.
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Unread postby FUDU » Mon May 12, 2008 1:55 pm

Kobe lost his athleticism and perfected his jumper and is a much better player today because of it. LBJ is not a finished product at all, his jumper is not near where it will be later.


He is closer to a finished product than we want to admit I'd bet.

Seriously besides his outside shot, FT and D how much better is he going to get?

Does anyone think he going to significantly improve at getting to the rim in his bullish athletic style, b/c he isn't going to develop a better first step to do it all of a sudden? The closer he gets to Howard's size the fewer times he will get to the rim.

Is he going to become that much better at seeing the floor and getting others in volved? That is god given not something you drill for.

Is he going to become a Rodmanesque rebounder all of a sudden?

Also we have to face the fact that he may not develop those other flaws to the point of significant improvement like others before him have. Sure I believe he'll do his best to improve, but who knows if he sees the results?

MJ never really became a good 3 pt shooter, he was good for some brief moments but overall he was just OK usually.

LBJ needs to really improve his shot and FT's, FTs are the easiest of the easys to improve and he hasn't done so hot in that area after 4 years. So where will he top out, 85% 91%, I'd be happy with 79.9 or 80%. What about his D, he has improved, how much better will he be, all D team, eh I doubt it. D is as much about wanting to do it as anything else and he until this year hasn't wanted to do it. When is he is going to want to do it in year 8 or year 11?

Shooting is the area where he can make the biggest improvement and still to what point does he top out? Is he going to reach a Kerr level, Peja level, or a Paul Pierce level?

Jordan was the best b/c of non stat line stuff as much as stat line stuff, will LeBron improve in that fashion as well?

He still has rooms full of highlight reels to fill but to think he is going to be significantly better in many areas than he is now is a bit unrealistic.
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Define "great"

Unread postby Madre Hill, Superstar » Mon May 12, 2008 2:09 pm

Is Magic great without Kareem and Big Game James?
Bird without McHale or the Chief?
Jordan without Pippen?
Kobe without Shaq?
DWade without Shaq?
Shaq without Kobe or DWade?
Duncan without Manu, Parker, Elliott, or the Admiral?

One man is not a team, no matter how great his talent and skill may be. Lebron ain't Superman, but neither was MJ. Every man struggles, its how they do when the chips are aligned with them that show true greatness. Lebron's supporting cast... may not be all the way there yet. Talk to me next season if/when we pick up Elton Brand.
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Unread postby peeker643 » Mon May 12, 2008 2:10 pm

He is closer to a finished product than we want to admit I'd bet.

Seriously besides his outside shot, FT and D how much better is he going to get?


Once he masters those things to go with what he's already got? I don't know, maybe he'll stop chewing his nails.

If what you wrote was just a joke FUDU, I apologize. Didn't read like it. God knows it's hard to ascertain tongue-in-cheek or a lot of other things in reading forum posts. If it wasn't a joke you should have put a smiley face there to confuse the issue.

I can just see you and JB typing this stuff while talking on the phone saying "How much farther can we take it before it's stone cold obvious?"
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Unread postby FUDU » Mon May 12, 2008 2:14 pm

No I was serious when asking, how much better do we think he is going to get?

He only needs to play it out as is for 10-14 years to maybe go down as best ever, right? So do we actually think he is going to significantly improve for 4-7 of those years?

It is not realistic to think he will.
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Unread postby e0y2e3 » Mon May 12, 2008 2:14 pm

Peeker643 wrote:
He is closer to a finished product than we want to admit I'd bet.

Seriously besides his outside shot, FT and D how much better is he going to get?


Once he masters those things to go with what he's already got? I don't know, maybe he'll stop chewing his nails.

If what you wrote was just a joke FUDU, I apologize. Didn't read like it. God knows it's hard to ascertain tongue-in-cheek or a lot of other things in reading forum posts. If it wasn't a joke you should have put a smiley face there to confuse the issue.

I can just see you and JB typing this stuff while talking on the phone saying "How much farther can we take it before it's stone cold obvious?"


What Peek said, if it wasn't a joke FUDU you may have just taken the worst NBA take award back.
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Unread postby swerb » Mon May 12, 2008 2:19 pm

FUDU wrote:No I was serious when asking, how much better do we think he is going to get?

He only needs to play it out as is for 10-14 years to maybe go down as best ever, right? So do we actually think he is going to significantly improve for 4-7 of those years?

It is not realistic to think he will.

LeBron has been pretty open about the fact that he tenaciously addresses one major area of his game each off-season.

Two years ago, the jumper. This past off-season, on the ball defense. He made a comment to someone that he will be shooting hundreds of free throws every day this summer.

Scary part is ... I think LeBron still can bring his game up several levels. And a better supporting cast may shave a couple ppg off his average, but make him a better overall player. His jumper ... these last three games aside, it's pretty good. Despite all the Johnny Come Lately complaining about his jumper, that's not the facet that worries me.

~Free throw shooting
~Defensive consistency
~Moving without the ball on offense

First one is on him. So is the second one, though that's only really a problem in the regular season. Third one is as much a biproduct of personnel as it is on him.
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Unread postby FUDU » Mon May 12, 2008 2:21 pm

This is what JB is talking about. One question mark about him and the whole world goes hay wire.

I take those replies as you expect him to be the best at just about everything shortly then.
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Unread postby e0y2e3 » Mon May 12, 2008 2:24 pm

FUDU wrote:This is what JB is talking about. One question mark about him and the whole world goes hay wire.

I take those replies as you expect him to be the best at just about everything shortly then.


It's not that FUDU.

It is that you asked what can he improve, then qualified it by listing 75% of his skills being able to be improved.

If LBJ ups his FTs, jumper, and D he will be an unmatched force.

The rest of your post is reasonable.
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Unread postby peeker643 » Mon May 12, 2008 2:33 pm

FUDU wrote:This is what JB is talking about. One question mark about him and the whole world goes hay wire.

I take those replies as you expect him to be the best at just about everything shortly then.


You can look at it that way sir. It's indicative of how you're looking at the entire situation IMO. Bass ackward.

Others, the vast majority in fact, will look at it and say "one or two poor games from him and a couple of posters go hay wire".

Guy had a couple bad games. Team's not in a position to take many, if any, more. Still has to thinggs to work on. Great, great player regardless.

There are a couple guys in this thread who are GREAT posters. IMO they've put together a couple bad threads. They're still great posters.

I love reading Hiko. Great writer. Couple columns I didn't think were as good as others. Still, great writer.

That's all. Long way to go to make my point. Apologize for the long windedness.
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Unread postby MacGregor78 » Mon May 12, 2008 3:21 pm

FUDU wrote:No I was serious when asking, how much better do we think he is going to get?

He only needs to play it out as is for 10-14 years to maybe go down as best ever, right? So do we actually think he is going to significantly improve for 4-7 of those years?

It is not realistic to think he will.


Ummm...how many players do you know that peaked at age 23?

Yes, he will significantly improve over the next 4-7 years.

Look at what Kobe is now compared to when he was 23. Your argument that Kobe didn't play much when he got in the league just further proves my point. Kobe wasn't good enough to play when he got to the league and look at him now.

2 bad games and people are calling him Bernard King. Just ridiculous. Maybe we should trade him for someone with more upside since he has obviously tapped all of his potential. I mean, a shooting slump is an obvious sign that he is not improving right?

That chase down block of Rondo was more just a stat line filler really, not an example of effort and ability. :roll :roll:
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Unread postby jb » Mon May 12, 2008 3:32 pm

FUDU wrote:No I was serious when asking, how much better do we think he is going to get?

He only needs to play it out as is for 10-14 years to maybe go down as best ever, right? So do we actually think he is going to significantly improve for 4-7 of those years?

It is not realistic to think he will.


I can see his game changing, but I don't know if it'll get better. I can see him losing something for what he gains.

I know Dr J changed a ton. He became a jump shooting mid-range player after looking like Bron when he was younger (relative to the players' size in eras) . I can see Bron growing into Karl Malone when he's 30. Seriously. Either that or Magic once his spring starts to regress. He could be nasty on the blocks. That's one area he has very little development going on. Can you imagine him revolutionizing the 2 man game into the 5 man game as a back to the basket player? He'd make Bill Walton look like Terry Catledge. Or he could pass over anyone like Magic if he'd just break out of the the macho ball pounding I'm-gonna-take-you-or-stick-the-J And 1 mentailty and be an actual evolved NBA point player.

But again, is he 23 in the sense that almost all 23 years olds are 1st and 2nd year players?? Or is he a 6'9" 260 pound, five year vet starter with Finals' experience who is a MVP candidate who is preternaturally precocious as The Chosen One who merely happens to be 23, and is to be evaluated as his own broken mold dictates?
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Unread postby MacGregor78 » Mon May 12, 2008 3:38 pm

JB wrote:Or he could pass over anyone like Magic if he'd just break out of the the macho ball pounding I'm-gonna-take-you-or-stick-the-J And 1 mentailty and be an actual evolved NBA point player.



This is a coaching issue.
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Unread postby mikebrownz26 » Mon May 12, 2008 3:42 pm

MacGregor78 wrote:
JB wrote:Or he could pass over anyone like Magic if he'd just break out of the the macho ball pounding I'm-gonna-take-you-or-stick-the-J And 1 mentailty and be an actual evolved NBA point player.



This is a coaching issue.


No its essentially not. Mike Brown does not tell Lebron to pound the ball for 20 seconds every possession despite how much some of you want to believe he is. Lebron should be smart enough to make adjustments to his own game.

Is this what some of you teach your kids? "Don't worry Johnny, its not your fault you failed your spelling test, your teacher just didn't teach you well enough!"
Last edited by mikebrownz26 on Mon May 12, 2008 3:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread postby Steve Buffum » Mon May 12, 2008 3:42 pm

mikebrownz26 wrote:No its essentially not. Mike Brown does not tell Lebron to pound the ball for 20 seconds every possession despite how much some of you want to believe he is.


Does he tell him not to?
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