DUI (continuing from another forum)

[FUDU]

OK JB, you made some comments in the Rey DUI thread that seem interesting enough to ask you to elaborate on. Also you recently said this forum has tons of potential, so not much more a controversial topic to try to get things rollin huh? NOTE: this is not singling you out just looking to continue the topic in the more appropriate forum.

And Ricky, the point is Rey didn't hurt anyonme but himself. Oh, sure, he COULD have. What other set of laws prejudges with penalties thousands if not millions based on what they COULD do other than restrictivegun ownership laws and baseless DUI laws?

Kill someone driving drunk, then you comitted a crime. If you can get home OK, it shoudln't be illegal. Rey should be charged with a failure to control accident. The rest is trumped up morality that nakes law enforcemnt and lawyers billions.

And I love you all.

I'm not strating personal fights no more. Just 1st Ammedning my peace.

Those are some curious comments, I'm probably in more agreement with you than disagreement but I'd like to hear more (from anyone with the same perspective). There is plenty of stuff in regards to DUI's that is very questionable (IE: check points and the legal validity as in probably cause etc...) but the opposite ends of the DUI spectrum in killing somebody or making it home fine seems an almost unreasonably extreme segway.

I don't want to get into it too much until I hear you elaborate more but just to touch the surface...driving is not necessarily an inherent right granted to us by the Constitution (I'm sure there is an argument out there somewhere stating how it could be). However it is a right once you meet the legal qualifications required to operate a motor vehicle, agreed? Having said that would you not think other cars on the road have a right to travel in relative peace and safety with some protections from the law providing some level of assurance that somebody else won't take them out for reasons of the fact they were not coherent enough to safely operate a car? I personally look at this a lot like you do, until I think to myself, how do you say (exactly what you said) to parents that lost a child due to a drunk driver (or a child losing a parent etc).

FTR, I (like a good number of people here) am not innocent of driving while drunk. While no excuse I had my DD days in my early 20's. The things I did in my car, regardless of sober or drunk, definitely warranted my losing my driving privileges for years. 19 yr old kids should not have cars with 500HP without a dad around, no way no how, speaking from 1st hand experience.

[Cerebral_DownTime]

Driving is not a right.

Check points are bullshit.

[jb]

Fudu, not much time right now.

Oversimplified....

DUI is a billion dollar industry that springs from the politics of victimization. Now let's be clear, I drink more than 2 / 3 Without food or hours of metabolizing I walk, cab, or hotel now.

But I don't demonize alcohol or even intoxication. I look at a western tradition millenia old, not a bunch of hysterical ninnies. I am unapologetic .

That said, there IS a point where people are too F'd up to operate machinery. But that is subjective across a range of variables and factors. To say I am proven guilty and suspended if a cop thinks theysmell beer on me and I don't give up my 4th rights or unsafe to drive after 3 drinks ( .08 ) is outgageous. And because of PC issues no one is allowed to stand up and yell "bull shit! ". .08 my ass.

IMO DUI should be like a hate crime or armed robbery. In and of itself not illegal - at all. But if you fail to control or cause harm it should elicit huge penalties.

Look, I feel horrible for victims and families, but that doesn't stop me from calling a cash cow and overreaction what it is.


Lastly, if anyone has private property, I'd bet $100 I could drive in cones the width of a lane and follow street signs up until a 12er or more on a non-empty stomach.

[Cerebral_DownTime]

Cops don't pull you over because they can smell you're breath, they pull you over because you can't properly maintain control of your car. I have no sympathy for people who get busted, if you're drunk and driving you're a hazard to other people. If they pull you over for another reason and you admit to drinking (when and if you're asked), they will give you a sobriety test. If you fail, you're an idiot for getting behind the wheel of a car, if you pass you're gonna be on your way.

I'm as pro 4th Amendment as anyone here, i'm pro alcohol as anyone on here. It doesn't take a rocket surgeon to understand these laws are in place to protect people.

[Erie Warrior]

Lastly, if anyone has private property, I'd bet $100 I could drive in cones the width of a lane and follow street signs up until a 12er or more on a non-empty stomach.

Interesting idea. Since alcohol effects everyone differently, I propose a drunk driving class. Pay some money, Set up a beer truck on a closed course, take driving tests until you fail. Record the BAC. Then you have a reasonable legal limit. Do it on an empty stomach, just in case.

I bet I'm good for at least a .13. Parallel parking as well.

[hermanfontenot]

Cops don't pull you over because they can smell you're breath, they pull you over because you can't properly maintain control of your car.

That isn't true. Cops don't need that kind of pretext to pull you over. They can pull you over for missing a license-plate light, a tail-light, or for claiming you went left-of-center- even if you didn't. They can make up pretty much any rationale they want.

And if you're driving at a certain time of night, you can get pulled over for pretty much no reason at all. Cops troll for drunk drivers in the small hours. I worked at a postal facility in Akron some years back, 6:00 PM-midnight, and I must have been pulled over a half-dozen times on my way back home in Kent by cops that were simply fishing for drunks.

I don't even want to get into checkpoints, which are an absolute travesty.

[Cerebral_DownTime]

Cops don't pull you over because they can smell you're breath, they pull you over because you can't properly maintain control of your car.

That isn't true. Cops don't need that kind of pretext to pull you over. They can pull you over for missing a license-plate light, a tail-light, or for claiming you went left-of-center- even if you didn't. They can make up pretty much any rationale they want.

And if you're driving at a certain time of night, you can get pulled over for pretty much no reason at all. Cops troll for drunk drivers in the small hours. I worked at a postal facility in Akron some years back, 6:00 PM-midnight, and I must have been pulled over a half-dozen times on my way back home in Kent by cops that were simply fishing for drunks.

I don't even want to get into checkpoints, which are an absolute travesty.

You must really have some shitty cops in your neck of the woods.

[hermanfontenot]

You must really have some shitty cops in your neck of the woods.

Kent cops are awful.

But the point is, cops have the power to be awful or good. If they want to pull bullshit they can, and there isn't a damned thing you can do about it. All they need is their own whim.

[Cerebral_DownTime]

You must really have some shitty cops in your neck of the woods.

Kent cops are awful.

But the point is, cops have the power to be awful or good. If they want to pull bullshit they can, and there isn't a damned thing you can do about it. All they need is their own whim.

Which is the case for anything.

But whadda you gonna do?

I'd bet 90% of DUI arrests are because the person caught, did something to tip off the cops they were drunk (swerving or driving eracticly). If someone gets busted for DUI because they got pulled over for a broken taillight, that's fine with me. They're still drunk and on the roads.

[pup]

Cops don't pull you over because they can smell you're breath, they pull you over because you can't properly maintain control of your car.

That isn't true. Cops don't need that kind of pretext to pull you over. They can pull you over for missing a license-plate light, a tail-light, or for claiming you went left-of-center- even if you didn't. They can make up pretty much any rationale they want.

And if you're driving at a certain time of night, you can get pulled over for pretty much no reason at all. Cops troll for drunk drivers in the small hours. I worked at a postal facility in Akron some years back, 6:00 PM-midnight, and I must have been pulled over a half-dozen times on my way back home in Kent by cops that were simply fishing for drunks.

I don't even want to get into checkpoints, which are an absolute travesty.

How many of those half a dozen did you get a DUI? I am guessing zero. Know why? You weren't breaking the freaking law.

Dudes. You ain't gotta like the rules, but you sure as fuck have to live by them. Drive drunk and get caught? Do the time.

[FUDU]

Hey anyone who has driven drunk on multiple occasions thinks their good at it, especially if you make it home without hitting anyone or thing. I'll admit in my days of taking those chances I was always, and I mean always more concerned with getting busted by the law than I was with hitting something or someone. You ever see a video of yourself driving drunk?

JB of course there is money to be made in all this. I've said for years that many of these laws put into place for "safety" are nothing more than chances to grab money....hell IIRC school buses still don't have seat belts, right?

DD is not going away, probably the ONLY way to come close to preventing it on a large scale would be with breathalyzer equipment equipped in all cars from the manufacturer, that isn't going to happen so......

I'm definitely in agreement about the check points, and about the .08 crap but I don't how comfortable I am in going to the extreme of saying if a drunk driver can make it home alright kudos to him.

ETA: DD is so damn common that the first time somebody gets a DUI it is truly all about wrong place wrong time (95% of the time).

[stonepm]

I was working outta town once on the corner of nowhere and bum f@#$ and the only thing to do, or eat,for miles was to go to the local bar. One night, on the way back to the hotel I kept thinking 'WTF is wrong with my headlights, I can't see shit" Back at the hotel, I noticed someone had put duct tape on my lights (tail lights too). I was pissed that somebody was messing with my truck, but just thought it was stupid. Next day I was bitching to the bar maid about it and she said that it was the cops. They notice your car in the bar parking lot too long, they put tape on your lights so if they pass you (or get behind you) on your way home, they know immediately where you were and assume you are drunk since you had been there so long. They then pull you over for whatever and off you go. I drove around for the next 2 months with tape on my lights. Then I hung a sign off my tailgate that said " I've been here since___" and filled in a time.

[Motherscratcher]

Cops don't pull you over because they can smell you're breath, they pull you over because you can't properly maintain control of your car.

That isn't true. Cops don't need that kind of pretext to pull you over. They can pull you over for missing a license-plate light, a tail-light, or for claiming you went left-of-center- even if you didn't. They can make up pretty much any rationale they want.

And if you're driving at a certain time of night, you can get pulled over for pretty much no reason at all. Cops troll for drunk drivers in the small hours. I worked at a postal facility in Akron some years back, 6:00 PM-midnight, and I must have been pulled over a half-dozen times on my way back home in Kent by cops that were simply fishing for drunks.

I don't even want to get into checkpoints, which are an absolute travesty.

Damn right. I was in Boardman at BW3 a few years back. My friend and I left around 1AM to go to Perkins with the intention of assaulting a couple of Belgian waffles (which is well within our rights). Perkins was probably 1/2 mile away. A cop had followed me out of the parking lot and pulled me over for changing lanes without using my turn signal. I was 1mph over the speed limit. There was hardly another car on the road.

As soon as I talked he must have known I was straight. He had me blow in the little tube. I was well under and he told me to have a nice night.

He was technically legit to pull me over I guess, but he did it for no other reason than he saw me leaving a bar.

[pup]

Cops don't pull you over because they can smell you're breath, they pull you over because you can't properly maintain control of your car.

That isn't true. Cops don't need that kind of pretext to pull you over. They can pull you over for missing a license-plate light, a tail-light, or for claiming you went left-of-center- even if you didn't. They can make up pretty much any rationale they want.

And if you're driving at a certain time of night, you can get pulled over for pretty much no reason at all. Cops troll for drunk drivers in the small hours. I worked at a postal facility in Akron some years back, 6:00 PM-midnight, and I must have been pulled over a half-dozen times on my way back home in Kent by cops that were simply fishing for drunks.

I don't even want to get into checkpoints, which are an absolute travesty.

Damn right. I was in Boardman at BW3 a few years back. My friend and I left around 1AM to go to Perkins with the intention of assaulting a couple of Belgian waffles (which is well within our rights). Perkins was probably 1/2 mile away. A cop had followed me out of the parking lot and pulled me over for changing lanes without using my turn signal. I was 1mph over the speed limit. There was hardly another car on the road.

As soon as I talked he must have known I was straight. He had me blow in the little tube. I was well under and he told me to have a nice night.

He was technically legit to pull me over I guess, but he did it for no other reason than he saw me leaving a bar.

Again. Another example of if you aren't driving drunk, even if you are pulled over, you have nothing to worry about.

I am yet to hear the story of, "the cop pulled me over for no reason, made be take field tests which I passed, then he made me take a breathalyzer which I passed before finally he tied me down and poured a bottle of whiskey down my throat and took me to jail."

[Motherscratcher]

Again. Another example of if you aren't driving drunk, even if you are pulled over, you have nothing to worry about.

I am yet to hear the story of, "the cop pulled me over for no reason, made be take field tests which I passed, then he made me take a breathalyzer which I passed before finally he tied me down and poured a bottle of whiskey down my throat and took me to jail."

I know, and you're right. I think that some of us object to and are leery of the "if you aren't doing anything wrong then you have nothing to worry about" mindset. Then there's cameras on corners, in houses, monitoring, slippery slope, Big Brother and all that shit.

If the cops/government can do what they want when they want, then aren't we living in a police state? I guess living in a police state isn't bad, as long as your doing what you are supposed to.

Orwell and whatnot.

[View from 171]

Friend of mine works at a bar in Columbus (Polaris area). Throughout the course of her shift, she had a few drinks but was not drunk. Cop pulls her over for changing lanes without using blinker. She is not drunk so she takes breathalyzer. Passes breathalyzer but cops arrest her anyway for operating a vehicle while impaired (or some other bullshit...I can't remember the exact language).

She beat the charge in court (but it cost her $5K to do it).

If you pass the breathalyzer, you should be on your way.....just my two cents.

[Cerebral_DownTime]

How many of those half a dozen did you get a DUI? I am guessing zero. Know why? You weren't breaking the freaking law.

In Herm's defense, if he wasn't breaking any laws he shouldn't of been pulled over. Now if he had a broken taillight or something of that nature, I undertsand. But if was just a random stop, it's kinda shitty.

Like I said, i'd bet 90% of the people arrested for DUI are pulled over because they can't drive straight. Which is good, because I don't want those jackasses near other people.

[swerb]

Friend of mine works at a bar in Columbus (Polaris area). Throughout the course of her shift, she had a few drinks but was not drunk. Cop pulls her over for changing lanes without using blinker. She is not drunk so she takes breathalyzer. Passes breathalyzer but cops arrest her anyway for operating a vehicle while impaired (or some other bullshit...I can't remember the exact language).

She beat the charge in court (but it cost her $5K to do it).

If you pass the breathalyzer, you should be on your way.....just my two cents.

That's why you never take the breathalyzer, even if you've had just 1-2 beers and believe yourself to be below the legal limit.

That's the thing people don't realize. You don't have to be at the legal limit to get a DUI. If the legal limit is 0.10, and you blow 0.08 and don't use your turn signal, if you don't got a lawyer worth a shit, you're still going to get charged with DUI ... and either get convicted, or have to pay 5k to beat it. Once you blow, they got evidence you were drinking.

Never blow. Ever. Especially if you suspect you are at or above the legal limit. Yes, you automatically lose your license for a year, but a good lawyer will get you expansive priveleges (unless your record is horrible) quickly, and without that tangible evidence it makes it very hard for them to convict you.

I could not agree more with whoever said that you should be off the hook if you blow below the legal limit. It should be cut and dry. The fact that it's not has led to a growing % of people not taking the test, and tying up the legal system, and punishing the people that don't have the smarts or means to lawyer up correctly, and rewarding the serial abusers that hire these DUI specialists high priced lawyers.

[justmebd]

From working in the legal system for several years, I can tell you for 100% certainty that most people charged for DUI were not pulled over for suspicion of being drunk.

Most were pulled over for something totally trivial (Blown taillight, headlight, etc.) in the wee hours of the morning and blew a .09 or .1

The only people I ever saw charged with DUI where the report came right out and said "suspicion of DUI" were people who blew .14 or higher.

The .08 limit is total BS. A friend of mine got pulled over last week around 7 p.m. for "running a red light." First of all, he didn't run the light, but that's a whole other story. Anyway, the cop asked him where he was going. My friend told him he was coming to my house.

"Who's your friend?" The cop asked. When my name didn't ring a bell with the cop, he said, "I don't know him, step out of the car, please."

That's the kind of BS drivers have to put up with and why every single DUI law needs changed. JB is right, it's a multi-billion dollar business for the lawyers because no politician had the balls to say "You're going too far, this is wrong."

My friend blew a .06 and only got a ticket for running the light (which I guarantee you, he didn't run). And MAN was that cop PISSED. I drove by and saw what was going on and that cop didn't look happy at all he couldn't make a DUI arrest.

[hermanfontenot]

I think that some of us object to and are leery of the "if you aren't doing anything wrong then you have nothing to worry about" mindset.

And for good reason. That's exactly the phrase used by interrogators from the KGB.

[dem425]

I was tempted to jump into this hornets' nest, but discretion is the better part of valor.

I did hear though that having a suspended license from a refusal to blow, even with work privledges, still cost about $400-$1000 a month extra for high-risk insurance.

DUI enforcement is a VERY slippery slope.........

[Cease]

Good thread. Interested in whether Swerb's "Don't Blow" advice his generally supported by all. Should ask my cop friends... If so, I'll try like hell to remember it.

The relationship b/w DUI and cops is amazing to me. I've got extended family that are policemen/detectives around the Eastern Cleveland 'burbs. On off nights, they drive rings around 271, 480 & 90 way over the limit for both speed and BAC. They get pulled over time and time again by other cops who let them on their merry drunken way.

The stories make them all laugh that "thin blue laugh," but really make me ill.

[FUDU]

I have had cops tell me the same thing, never blow, IMO it is a bit of a common sense thing. Also, and I bet dem backs me up on this, never lie about if you were drinking or "how much" if asked by LE. "I had a couple" is also probably a really bad answer, just tell em straight up, IMO your chances of getting off go up simply b/c you are being straight forward and not insulting their intelligence, it leaves them the ability to apply their own judgment which just might favor you if the cop is a normal guy.

[dem425]

FUDU: The joke for years was that nearly everyone who had been stopped for drinking and driving would tell a cop they had "one beer" and then blow a .18.........

As far as letting people off; in my early years of law enforcement (late 70's/early 80's ) cops had MUCH more discretion as to how they enforced DUI stops (things like hawking bar parking lots and arresting people in their driveways was frowned upon by the decent cops and taking people home happened frequently). In todays world with MADD and SADD breathing down everyone's neck, department administration have chosen to limit officer discretion and mandate arrests where warranted. Just like domestic violence calls. You will always find some departments that seriously stress DUI enforcement (OSP) and others that enforce as needed. But no department wants to be on the 11 o'clock news reporting that they let a "suspected" drunk driver go who went down the road and killed someone.

I personally know of a pissing contest that took place many years ago between a law enforcement department and the OSP. The department had several bars in their jurisdiction that was being "staked out" by OSP for DUI arrests. The liquor dealers association was such a strong lobby in that area that they forced the head of the law enforcement agency to tell the OSP to get the hell out of their yard. They were killing business!

Like I said.......a slippery slope

[justmebd]

This is why I think anyone who has been pulled over and blows over the limit should just be taken home. If you haven't really done anything except drink too much, just get them off the road. Quit choking up the legal system with BS DUI tickets and ruining people's lives over the "Might Have" aspect of all this.

I might have swerved to miss a deer and flipped my car 10 times and killed three people on the way into the ditch while being completely sober -- but I didn't. That's what pisses me off about how DUI laws are enforced today, it's all based off of "Well you might have . . "

It's bullshit and someone needs to have the balls to step up and change things.

But that won't happen.

One last thing, if the cops angle changes from one of predator *Get the DUI, look good on TV*, to the original purpose of local law enforcement *To serve and protect*, you would have a lot less problems. How many drunks run from the cops because they figure "What Have I got to lose at this point?"

This is not a difficult issue to resolve, it's just no one has the guts to do it.

[Cerebral_DownTime]

This is why I think anyone who has been pulled over and blows over the limit should just be taken home.

The Police department is not a Taxi service. If you want to avoid blowing a breathalyzer, call a goddamn cab or bring a DD. This shit is not complicated.

The notion that these people are being arrested for what they "might do" is absurd, they did do something, they drank too much and got behind the wheel of a car.

One last thing, if the cops angle changes from one of predator *Get the DUI, look good on TV*, to the original purpose of local law enforcement *To serve and protect*, you would have a lot less problems

Right, cops arrest drunks to "look good on tv"...... How many cops have you seen on TV after arresting Joe Schmoe for DUI? Getting drunks off the road before they kill or hurt someone is the definition of protecting.

How many drunks run from the cops because they figure "What Have I got to lose at this point?"

Christ on a jet ski, it's friggin amazing that the cops are the bad guys for enforcing laws that do good. I guess the fucking douche bag who gets hammered and drives down the road is just the innocent victim. He doesn't have to be responsible for his actions, it's the laws' fault. We shouldn't pull over drunks because they might run from the cops...... Wow.

[leadpipe]

This is why I think anyone who has been pulled over and blows over the limit should just be taken home. If you haven't really done anything except drink too much, just get them off the road. Quit choking up the legal system with BS DUI tickets and ruining people's lives over the "Might Have" aspect of all this.

I might have swerved to miss a deer and flipped my car 10 times and killed three people on the way into the ditch while being completely sober -- but I didn't. That's what pisses me off about how DUI laws are enforced today, it's all based off of "Well you might have . . "

It's bullshit and someone needs to have the balls to step up and change things.

But that won't happen.

One last thing, if the cops angle changes from one of predator *Get the DUI, look good on TV*, to the original purpose of local law enforcement *To serve and protect*, you would have a lot less problems. How many drunks run from the cops because they figure "What Have I got to lose at this point?"

This is not a difficult issue to resolve, it's just no one has the guts to do it.

If I go into a bank, and am an awful shot, and miss the teller - can I get a lift home?

Look, just like about anything else, the system has it's flaws. And of course when money is involved...... but there has to be SOME accoutablilty. Christ, how many more deaths would there be every wekend if people knew that if they got pulled over and blew over the limit they'd get a ride home?

Life's about lessons learned. And with each passing year there are less lessons being taught because we're afraid in this PC world. Oh yeah, and stupid.

Similiar to the taser shit - yeah, some get boned by the DUI laws, but at the end of the day waaaaaaaaaaayyyy more get Dui's because they deserved them. And multiple offenders, you know, the guy the cops happen to "screw" over three times....how many of those jag-off are bouncing around.

If you fall short of a full existence in this life, odds are it will be as a result of something happening in your car.

Wise-up, don't drink, pay attention when you're on that fucking phone and don't text.

And you toes will be tappin'

That is all.

[hebner20]

This is why I think anyone who has been pulled over and blows over the limit should just be taken home. If you haven't really done anything except drink too much, just get them off the road. Quit choking up the legal system with BS DUI tickets and ruining people's lives over the "Might Have" aspect of all this.

I might have swerved to miss a deer and flipped my car 10 times and killed three people on the way into the ditch while being completely sober -- but I didn't. That's what pisses me off about how DUI laws are enforced today, it's all based off of "Well you might have . . "

It's bullshit and someone needs to have the balls to step up and change things.

But that won't happen.

One last thing, if the cops angle changes from one of predator *Get the DUI, look good on TV*, to the original purpose of local law enforcement *To serve and protect*, you would have a lot less problems. How many drunks run from the cops because they figure "What Have I got to lose at this point?"

This is not a difficult issue to resolve, it's just no one has the guts to do it.

If I go into a bank, and am an awful shot, and miss the teller - can I get a lift home?

Look, just like about anything else, the system has it's flaws. And of course when money is involved...... but there has to be SOME accoutablilty. Christ, how many more deaths would there be every wekend if people knew that if they got pulled over and blew over the limit they'd get a ride home?

Life's about lessons learned. And with each passing year there are less lessons being taught because we're afraid in this PC world. Oh yeah, and stupid.

Similiar to the taser shit - yeah, some get boned by the DUI laws, but at the end of the day waaaaaaaaaaayyyy more get Dui's because they deserved them. And multiple offenders, you know, the guy the cops happen to "screw" over three times....how many of those jag-off are bouncing around.

If you fall short of a full existence in this life, odds are it will be as a result of something happening in your car.

Wise-up, don't drink, pay attention when you're on that fucking phone and don't text.

And you toes will be tappin'

That is all.

Amen. I can't really believe some of what is being said in this thread.

[Rat_Tail]

Maybe people shouldn't drink and drive period. Whether you've had 1 or 10.

[Motherscratcher]

Maybe black people shouldn't drink and drive period. Whether they've had 1 or 10.

Fixed it just for you Rat_Tail.

[Cerebral_DownTime]

Maybe black people shouldn't drink and drive period. Whether they've had 1 or 10.

Fixed it just for you Rat_Tail.

Poor bastard is never going to live that down.

[Cease]

Maybe black people shouldn't drink and drive period. Whether they've had 1 or 10.

Fixed it just for you Rat_Tail.

FUDU crosses the timeline over to Downtime, Dowtime cross court to LeadPipe, LeadPipe between the circles, dribbling, cross court to Rat Tail. Rat Tail lobs one up to MotherScratcher...

Wham with the right hand!

[Rat_Tail]

Maybe black people shouldn't drink and drive period. Whether they've had 1 or 10.

Fixed it just for you Rat_Tail.

If it makes you feel better. I don't really care. None of you are as bad as e0y.

[Cerebral_DownTime]

. None of you are as bad as e0y.

Very few are.

You need extensive message board experience to reach his level of dickitude.

[Rat_Tail]

Gordon Bombay seems to think it's alright.

Skip to 6:12.