Cleveland Cavaliers & The NBA

by **Prosecutor** » Thu Oct 29, 2009 10:39 pm

From what I saw from the Celtics game, Shaq is pretty much a non-factor and he doesn't fit with this team.

He's slow - very, very slow. He can really be exploited on defense. Whatever big man he is guarding sets a pick for a quick guard. Shaq tries to switch off on the guard and force him away from the basket like Z and AV do, but he's too slow. The guard goes right by him and into the lane. Meanwhile, the big man who set the pick sloughs off for the open jumper.

On offense Shaq is really limited. He can't get up and down the court - he needs a set offense. He can't shoot from outside if you leave him alone like Z can. I didn't see any offensive rebounds. He can't shoot foul shots. He only has one shot - a jump hook which he rushes and clangs off the rim most of the time.

You can't have him run a pick and roll on offense because if he's open after setting the pick he can't knock down the outside shot like Z. And he can't drive to the hoop after getting the pass because he's way too slow and can't dribble.

He can't be on the floor at the end of close games because of his foul shooting.

Kendrick Perkins was the better center, IMO. And the Raptors ran circles around him from what Brian Windhorst wrote. I checked the box score and the Cavs were -25 when Shaq was in the game. Nobody else was even close.

Maybe he was tired against the Raptors. Maybe he doesn't match up well against the quicker, more athletic big men. Rasheed Wallace just went outside and knocked down 3-pointers on him. But I'm concerned that his skills have diminished to the point where he's just an average center. He's an excellent defensive rebounder but he's easily exploited on defense by the quicker, more athletic big men and he has no offensive game except for the occasional jump hook that goes in. He doesn't open up the outside shot because they don't double-team him in the post. The strategy is to just stay between him and the basket and let him throw up that jump hook. He'll miss most of them.

I don't see a good fit here. And Shaq's skills are limited to defensive rebounding and a low post bump and grind game that is offensive to watch, even when he gets the shot to drop. I hope I'm wrong but I'm thinking they made a big mistake in trading for Shaq.

by **StewieG** » Thu Oct 29, 2009 11:07 pm

It's possible, but I'd like to give it more than 2 games to make a decision on this. Let's see where we stand come December.

by **FUDU** » Thu Oct 29, 2009 11:27 pm

Shaq has become a notorious slow starter as he has aged, it's that Roger Clemens I don't want to go through training syndrome. If Shaq has anything left, I assume he does, we will start to see it as the season goes on. He has looked way better in March the past 2 season then he has in November IIRC.

by **aoxo1** » Fri Oct 30, 2009 1:34 am

I know, Shaq is a really poor shooter from the field. I mean, he only shot 60.9% last year. Those shots he is taking have been missing the bucket nearly 40% of the time over the past few years.

And the brutal thing is that they didn't even sign him.

by **tired** » Fri Oct 30, 2009 1:39 am

It's hard to tell. I think the reason the cavs got him was to get over the hump with the magic and Howard.

by **Prosecutor** » Fri Oct 30, 2009 6:15 am

What concerns me is that he has only two offensive rebounds in 54 minutes. Which suggests that he's either not trying or that he's lost some quickness and mobility. Take away the offensive rebounds and he's not much of an offensive force. He's averaging 11 ppg.

So far he's shooting 48.7%. Hopefully that will improve to 60% as the season goes along. Maybe he's just pacing himself for the long season.

Defensively he's slow and can be taken advantage of by a mobile big man or one that has an outside shot. Perkins, Sheed, and Bargnini have abused him so far. Maybe not so much Perkins. From what I saw, he was knocking down the short baseline jumper after Shaq switched off him to pick up a penetrator, so you can't blame Shaq. But his inability to effectively defense the pick-and-roll away from the hoop is a big concern.

Website · by **pup** » Fri Oct 30, 2009 6:24 am

The decision on if this trade was effective will be based on 2 things:

1. Does Shaq round into shape over the course of the season and become a beast in the playoffs?

2. Can Z figure out how to be an effective role player coming off the bench?

It will not be decided based on these 2 things:

1. Game 1

2. Game 2

by **Prosecutor** » Fri Oct 30, 2009 9:34 am

From Terry Pluto's column this morning:

You don't need to be Lenny Wilkens to know putting two plodding big men on the same court against Toronto's mobile front line with Chris Bosh and Andrea Bargnani would be a disaster. Yet the Cavs did that two times in Toronto, and they were outscored, 19-8, when the 7-3 Ilgauskas and 7-1 O'Neal played together.

Play one big guy at a time. Or even go smaller at some points in the game with Anderson Varejao in the middle and LeBron James at power forward. This is a quick, athletic league. Big is not always better.

That's the point of my question. This is a quick, athletic league. Shaq is neither quick nor athletic. Neither is Z. I'm not liking what I'm seeing so far. Maybe Shaq is a slow starter who is saving himself for the playoffs. Maybe Brown figures out how to better use him on offense and compensate for his defensive shortcomings. But like Pluto, I'm concerned by what I've seen so far.

by **FUDU** » Fri Oct 30, 2009 9:53 am

aoxo1 wrote:I know, Shaq is a really poor shooter from the field. I mean, he only shot 60.9% last year. Those shots he is taking have been missing the bucket nearly 40% of the time over the past few years.

And the brutal thing is that they didn't even sign him.

To be fair aoxo I think the point here and for the most part of the early season is that Shaq can only shoot the ball from point blank. Yeah 60% from the block is great, something Z could NEVER do, BUT if Z got stuck 11-12 feet away from the hoop he could knock down the shot 45-55% of the time. Shaq has no hope of knocking down a 15 footer let alone a 10 footer so he has to be kept near the hoop in order to put the ball in the basket. Which of course brings up the other big problem a few of us have mentioned (eye says it everyday) Shaq being in LeBron's way. A good opposing coach will eventually use Shaq against us as sort of another defender.

by rk » Fri Oct 30, 2009 11:50 am

No.

And people are ridiculous for judging anything after a game against one of the best teams in the NBA and then a back-to-back travel game against another playoff team.

I love how many people read about how this team would need some time to gel, nodded their heads in agreement a week ago, and are now getting nervous.

The Cavs are going to the playoffs, people, and if Shaq stays healthy we'll all be happy he's on the team for those matchups.

by **papacass** » Fri Oct 30, 2009 2:01 pm

rk wrote:No.

And people are ridiculous for judging anything after a game against one of the best teams in the NBA and then a back-to-back travel game against another playoff team.

I love how many people read about how this team would need some time to gel, nodded their heads in agreement a week ago, and are now getting nervous.

The Cavs are going to the playoffs, people, and if Shaq stays healthy we'll all be happy he's on the team for those matchups.

This.

by **Andrew** » Fri Oct 30, 2009 7:29 pm

Damn, its only been 2 games. Do you have any patience?

by **Goozer** » Sat Oct 31, 2009 1:14 am

Christ.

I don't think I've posted in 12 months, but the melt in here over the past 72 hours is beyond comprehension. Not picking on you, Pros, cause i easily could have picked one of the other umpteen sky is falling threads, but Jumping Jeezus on a Pogo Stick, the Cavs are exactly where they were 365 days ago record wise and we know how the '08/'09 regular season ended. The current roster is easily better than last years roster ... but the 800 pound gorilla in the room (pun intended wrt Shaq) is going to lead to some bumps in the road over the first quarter of the season. But, there's no doubt that the Shaq trade had to be made. In addition, Hot Sauce In My Bag's(tm) situation is creating Mike Brown to gork his rotations in the early going.

Give it some time. Either that or troll the Lakers (yes, you gknow those guys that have already been annointed as the last man standing circa June 15, 2010) boards as the Mavs just took them to the woodshed.

Now, where'd I put that damn Xmas Ale?

by **Prosecutor** » Sat Oct 31, 2009 7:59 am

Check out Mary Schmidt Boyer's column in the PD today about the T-Wolves game. The story's lead was that when Shaq went out with foul trouble the Cavs put in last year's 66-win unit and immediately took control of the game. With Shaq in the game they were essentially tied with a weak team.

That's my concern - that Shaq is not a good fit with this team. And that he's no longer a force individually, just a solid defensive rebounder with a very limited offensive game who lacks the quickness to keep up with a lot of the guys he's assigned to defend.

Mike Brown admitted that Shaq is not in "great game shape" yet and hasnt' yet "got his feet under him." Hopefully that's what I'm seeing. I assume that as the season goes on the Cavs will figure out how to best use Shaq's strengths while he gradually gets into better shape. By the time the playoffs start it might all be good. Worst case, we now have someone to joust with Howard in the paint if we catch the Magic in the playoffs.

by **Orenthal** » Sat Oct 31, 2009 9:32 am

Ben Wallace and Sasha made the trade a no brainer.

Dwight Howard killed us last year because he would get position deep in the paint, feet from the rim, from there he does damage. Double teams creating open looks, or simply jump and slam or be fouled. That is playoff basketball. This team will begin to gel, and realize when to get the ball into Shaq. Not when he is 10ft from the hoop, but on possessions where the D did not body up soon enough and he is mere feet from the basket. Also looks like Shaq is really clogging the lane and killing LeBron's numbers...

Plus I luv how Shaq handles guys driving into the lane... Another facet of Playoff basketball the Cavaliers lacked was toughness in the paint...

:salute:

by **FUDU** » Sat Oct 31, 2009 9:51 am

The problem with Cavaliers nation right now is understandable and to be expected in this town due to our suffering. With expectations high for this team every game will be scrutinized and the team's progress will be measured on a nightly basis regardless of the fact this is a long season and we know the whole thing changes come play off time.

It may take more patience but the better way to evaluate this team is month by month, and after last season an even better way is to take way more credence in our play v the top 5-6 teams in the league instead of staring at our 15-18 point victories over the have nots.

by **consigliere** » Sat Oct 31, 2009 10:08 am

Prosecutor wrote:Check out Mary Schmidt Boyer's column in the PD today about the T-Wolves game. The story's lead was that when Shaq went out with foul trouble the Cavs put in last year's 66-win unit and immediately took control of the game. With Shaq in the game they were essentially tied with a weak team.

That's my concern - that Shaq is not a good fit with this team. And that he's no longer a force individually, just a solid defensive rebounder with a very limited offensive game who lacks the quickness to keep up with a lot of the guys he's assigned to defend.

Mike Brown admitted that Shaq is not in "great game shape" yet and hasnt' yet "got his feet under him." Hopefully that's what I'm seeing. I assume that as the season goes on the Cavs will figure out how to best use Shaq's strengths while he gradually gets into better shape. By the time the playoffs start it might all be good. Worst case, we now have someone to joust with Howard in the paint if we catch the Magic in the playoffs.

Maybe I was expecting too much with Shaq, and I know he is not the dominant force he once was (which is why he has been traded a few times recently). But damn, color me very unimpressed with anything he has done since getting here. I would think the opposite would be the case where at the start of the season the guy is fresh with energy and at his best, yet he's been very average so far and that is being kind. He's really hurting the team when he is in there.

I hope it works out and there certainly is a chance things could be better. But nothing wrong with sharing some concern after a game or two about the big fella in the middle.

by **papacass** » Sat Oct 31, 2009 12:04 pm

Consigliere wrote:
Prosecutor wrote:Check out Mary Schmidt Boyer's column in the PD today about the T-Wolves game. The story's lead was that when Shaq went out with foul trouble the Cavs put in last year's 66-win unit and immediately took control of the game. With Shaq in the game they were essentially tied with a weak team.

That's my concern - that Shaq is not a good fit with this team. And that he's no longer a force individually, just a solid defensive rebounder with a very limited offensive game who lacks the quickness to keep up with a lot of the guys he's assigned to defend.

Mike Brown admitted that Shaq is not in "great game shape" yet and hasnt' yet "got his feet under him." Hopefully that's what I'm seeing. I assume that as the season goes on the Cavs will figure out how to best use Shaq's strengths while he gradually gets into better shape. By the time the playoffs start it might all be good. Worst case, we now have someone to joust with Howard in the paint if we catch the Magic in the playoffs.

Maybe I was expecting too much with Shaq, and I know he is not the dominant force he once was (which is why he has been traded a few times recently). But damn, color me very unimpressed with anything he has done since getting here. I would think the opposite would be the case where at the start of the season the guy is fresh with energy and at his best, yet he's been very average so far and that is being kind. He's really hurting the team when he is in there.

I hope it works out and there certainly is a chance things could be better. But nothing wrong with sharing some concern after a game or two about the big fella in the middle.

Shaq isn't a good fit right now. That's what I've been saying pretty much all week. Shaq runs contrary to how they won last year. He's a mismatched part. We knew he would be heading into the year.

The team has to work at making him a good fit for later in the year. That's going to take a while. As in, maybe sometime between Thanksgiving and Christmas, he starts to look like he belongs here. Of course, it would help expedite the process if Shaq could get into game shape sometime soon.

by **peeker643** » Sat Oct 31, 2009 12:15 pm

Papa Cass wrote:
Consigliere wrote:
Prosecutor wrote:Check out Mary Schmidt Boyer's column in the PD today about the T-Wolves game. The story's lead was that when Shaq went out with foul trouble the Cavs put in last year's 66-win unit and immediately took control of the game. With Shaq in the game they were essentially tied with a weak team.

That's my concern - that Shaq is not a good fit with this team. And that he's no longer a force individually, just a solid defensive rebounder with a very limited offensive game who lacks the quickness to keep up with a lot of the guys he's assigned to defend.

Mike Brown admitted that Shaq is not in "great game shape" yet and hasnt' yet "got his feet under him." Hopefully that's what I'm seeing. I assume that as the season goes on the Cavs will figure out how to best use Shaq's strengths while he gradually gets into better shape. By the time the playoffs start it might all be good. Worst case, we now have someone to joust with Howard in the paint if we catch the Magic in the playoffs.

Maybe I was expecting too much with Shaq, and I know he is not the dominant force he once was (which is why he has been traded a few times recently). But damn, color me very unimpressed with anything he has done since getting here. I would think the opposite would be the case where at the start of the season the guy is fresh with energy and at his best, yet he's been very average so far and that is being kind. He's really hurting the team when he is in there.

I hope it works out and there certainly is a chance things could be better. But nothing wrong with sharing some concern after a game or two about the big fella in the middle.

Shaq isn't a good fit right now. That's what I've been saying pretty much all week. Shaq runs contrary to how they won last year. He's a mismatched part. We knew he would be heading into the year.

The team has to work at making him a good fit for later in the year. That's going to take a while. As in, maybe sometime between Thanksgiving and Christmas, he starts to look like he belongs here. Of course, it would help expedite the process if Shaq could get into game shape sometime soon.

If he's in shape, and I have no idea if he's motivated to get there or not but you'd think another contract and a chance at another ring would be enough, they're simply a better team in May 2010 than they were in May 2009.

They just are.

They'll find a way to fit him in and get him integrated. If they don't then they get called on it and Brown is likely looking for work.

by **consigliere** » Sat Oct 31, 2009 12:26 pm

Papa Cass wrote:The team has to work at making him a good fit for later in the year. That's going to take a while. As in, maybe sometime between Thanksgiving and Christmas, he starts to look like he belongs here. Of course, it would help expedite the process if Shaq could get into game shape sometime soon.

I don't intend to be crass, because I legitmately am concerned with how this guy fits in and whether or not he is done. But as Denzel once said, explain to me like I am a four-year old (no comment necessary from the righteous one Peek) because right now I see a square peg round hole thing. How do they make him fit?

by **FUDU** » Sat Oct 31, 2009 12:33 pm

Peeker643 wrote:
Papa Cass wrote:
Consigliere wrote:
Prosecutor wrote:Check out Mary Schmidt Boyer's column in the PD today about the T-Wolves game. The story's lead was that when Shaq went out with foul trouble the Cavs put in last year's 66-win unit and immediately took control of the game. With Shaq in the game they were essentially tied with a weak team.

That's my concern - that Shaq is not a good fit with this team. And that he's no longer a force individually, just a solid defensive rebounder with a very limited offensive game who lacks the quickness to keep up with a lot of the guys he's assigned to defend.

Mike Brown admitted that Shaq is not in "great game shape" yet and hasnt' yet "got his feet under him." Hopefully that's what I'm seeing. I assume that as the season goes on the Cavs will figure out how to best use Shaq's strengths while he gradually gets into better shape. By the time the playoffs start it might all be good. Worst case, we now have someone to joust with Howard in the paint if we catch the Magic in the playoffs.

Maybe I was expecting too much with Shaq, and I know he is not the dominant force he once was (which is why he has been traded a few times recently). But damn, color me very unimpressed with anything he has done since getting here. I would think the opposite would be the case where at the start of the season the guy is fresh with energy and at his best, yet he's been very average so far and that is being kind. He's really hurting the team when he is in there.

I hope it works out and there certainly is a chance things could be better. But nothing wrong with sharing some concern after a game or two about the big fella in the middle.

Shaq isn't a good fit right now. That's what I've been saying pretty much all week. Shaq runs contrary to how they won last year. He's a mismatched part. We knew he would be heading into the year.

The team has to work at making him a good fit for later in the year. That's going to take a while. As in, maybe sometime between Thanksgiving and Christmas, he starts to look like he belongs here. Of course, it would help expedite the process if Shaq could get into game shape sometime soon.

If he's in shape, and I have no idea if he's motivated to get there or not but you'd think another contract and a chance at another ring would be enough, they're simply a better team in May 2010 than they were in May 2009.

They just are.

They'll find a way to fit him in and get him integrated. If they don't then they get called on it and Brown is likely looking for work.

IF and ONLY if they get him out of LeBron's way.

If not I don't care if Shaq loses 60lbs and shoots 80% from the floor or line it won't work well.

by **e0y2e3** » Sat Oct 31, 2009 12:54 pm

Haven't read this entire thread yet, but I gotta call out Goozer for showing back up out of nowhere.

Maybe we'll get lucky and he'll stay this time.

Probably not though.

by **aoxo1** » Sat Oct 31, 2009 1:04 pm

FUDU wrote:If not I don't care if Shaq loses 60lbs and shoots 80% from the floor or line it won't work well.

If Shaq is shooting 80% from the floor and this team can't figure out how to play with him, it's on Brown and LeBron. LeBron needs to learn how to play within an offense consistently and for stretches of time, and Brown has to run that offense and force LeBron to do it. Driving to the basket over and over for 40 minutes a game is not an offense no matter how many times he kicks it out and I am sick of it, and thus far LeBron has shown no real ability to integrate his game into the overall idea and movement of a legitimate NBA offense for more than a few possessions at a time.

edit to add: and don't say he showed it last year, he didn't. He still, for the most part, played the game he played while the rest of the offense showed some semblance of functionality. Yeah, he would occasionally catch one on a cut and throw it down, but again, consistency not a few possessions at a time.

by **papacass** » Sat Oct 31, 2009 1:05 pm

Consigliere wrote:I don't intend to be crass, because I legitmately am concerned with how this guy fits in and whether or not he is done. But as Denzel once said, explain to me like I am a four-year old (no comment necessary from the righteous one Peek) because right now I see a square peg round hole thing. How do they make him fit?

I'm not going to explain it to you like you're a four year old. If I have to use Barbie and Ken dolls to get my points across, you should be doing some research before you post here. You've already admitted that you don't watch or research basketball a ton, so that might be part of the problem. Just MHO.

I've already given my thoughts on the Shaq situation in this and other threads, at least one as recently as yesterday. I'm not going to try to convince you, because I frankly don't think anything I or anyone else says is going to convince you that Shaq is anything besides what you think he is. Any explanation I give, no matter how thorough, you'll counter with "I just don't see it that way" or the like. It's kind of like preaching the Bible to the National Association of Atheists, or whatever analogy you want to use.

All I'll say are the following few points:

1. If Shaq was done, he wouldn't still be playing. Dude has has a massive ego and interests all across the board. If his basketball talent was used up to the point where he was embarrassing himself playing the sport, he'd be chasing down perps or producing reality shows. No one is saying he's even close to his Lakers self, but he's not done. If you want to rush to that judgment after three games, methinks you already had your mind made up, or you're hopeful for a certain outcome, and are looking for evidence to support your pre-made belief.

2. I go back to my "current condition vs. permanent state of being" argument that I mentioned a couple of threads ago. Just because Shaq is a mismatched part now doesn't mean that it's all he'll ever be. His teammates and the coaching staff are working every day to fit him into the system, so that they can reap the hopeful benefits down the road against other contenders. It's not like the Cavs traded for Shaq, and he just is what he is. Everyone is putting untold work in behind the scenes to integrate Shaq. It's like extra BP or bullpen sessions or anything in baseball. There is always work going on between games.

3. I can't help but wonder, if Ferry had passed on Shaq and he had gone to, say, Chicago, who would be lambasting Ferry for not having the guts to pull the trigger on a bold move? Who would be wetting their pants and predicting Chicago to win the division? Even if Shaq had gotten off to a slow start for the Bulls, who among us would be saying "It's only a matter of time before he gets his act together, and when he does, we're going to have to go through Shaq, Howard and KG to win the East!! OMG WE'RE SO FUCKED!!!!" More than a few, that's who.

I'm not going to sit here all season and try to make points to the people who already have their minds made up. Sooner or later, it becomes like slamming my head against a wall repeatedly.

by **peeker643** » Sat Oct 31, 2009 1:07 pm

FUDU wrote:
Peeker643 wrote:
Papa Cass wrote:
Consigliere wrote:
Prosecutor wrote:Check out Mary Schmidt Boyer's column in the PD today about the T-Wolves game. The story's lead was that when Shaq went out with foul trouble the Cavs put in last year's 66-win unit and immediately took control of the game. With Shaq in the game they were essentially tied with a weak team.

That's my concern - that Shaq is not a good fit with this team. And that he's no longer a force individually, just a solid defensive rebounder with a very limited offensive game who lacks the quickness to keep up with a lot of the guys he's assigned to defend.

Mike Brown admitted that Shaq is not in "great game shape" yet and hasnt' yet "got his feet under him." Hopefully that's what I'm seeing. I assume that as the season goes on the Cavs will figure out how to best use Shaq's strengths while he gradually gets into better shape. By the time the playoffs start it might all be good. Worst case, we now have someone to joust with Howard in the paint if we catch the Magic in the playoffs.

Maybe I was expecting too much with Shaq, and I know he is not the dominant force he once was (which is why he has been traded a few times recently). But damn, color me very unimpressed with anything he has done since getting here. I would think the opposite would be the case where at the start of the season the guy is fresh with energy and at his best, yet he's been very average so far and that is being kind. He's really hurting the team when he is in there.

I hope it works out and there certainly is a chance things could be better. But nothing wrong with sharing some concern after a game or two about the big fella in the middle.

Shaq isn't a good fit right now. That's what I've been saying pretty much all week. Shaq runs contrary to how they won last year. He's a mismatched part. We knew he would be heading into the year.

The team has to work at making him a good fit for later in the year. That's going to take a while. As in, maybe sometime between Thanksgiving and Christmas, he starts to look like he belongs here. Of course, it would help expedite the process if Shaq could get into game shape sometime soon.

If he's in shape, and I have no idea if he's motivated to get there or not but you'd think another contract and a chance at another ring would be enough, they're simply a better team in May 2010 than they were in May 2009.

They just are.

They'll find a way to fit him in and get him integrated. If they don't then they get called on it and Brown is likely looking for work.

IF and ONLY if they get him out of LeBron's way.

If not I don't care if Shaq loses 60lbs and shoots 80% from the floor or line it won't work well.

Hopefully he's self-actualized. Hopefully he understands that at his age and with miles on that body he's a complementary player and not a co-host. He can earn himself another $30m over the next three years if he'll allow himself to see it and be it. He's capable of dominating a given game but not a season.

If he gets that the Cavs will be fine IMO. If he doesn't they will be focked.

Because he's still a beast and a handful down low.

by **consigliere** » Sat Oct 31, 2009 1:28 pm

Papa Cass wrote:I've already given my thoughts on the Shaq situation in this and other threads, at least one as recently as yesterday. I'm not going to try to convince you, because I frankly don't think anything I or anyone else says is going to convince you that Shaq is anything besides what you think he is. Any explanation I give, no matter how thorough, you'll counter with "I just don't see it that way" or the like. It's kind of like preaching the Bible to the National Association of Atheists, or whatever analogy you want to use.

That's not entirely true. I will certainly admit my opinion can be hard to change and I am as rigid as they come. It's like that with anything. But, if you go back, you'll see that I was a big proponent of getting Shaq at the deadline and also a big fan of us picking him up. All I am saying, is what if we are wrong on the guy? Time will say so otherwise, but there are warning signs along the way and so far other than a big PR boost he looks miscast on this team. Maybe things are different in 20 games or in May, I definitely hope so. But if people can't lay out their concerns even in game one, then we might as well shut down the boards or not have a game thread until halfway through the season.

And for the record, you softened my stance a lot on some of this Cavaliers stuff, as I told you the other day. So, my mind and view can be changed/altered or whatever you want to call it. (agree)

by **Jon Cohodas** » Sat Oct 31, 2009 2:38 pm

My 2 cents:
Shaq is not playoff or even mid-season ready yet. He spent the summer playing volleyball and a million other sports. He is old. He has been to the finals enough times with good teams to know it is a marathon and not a sprint. I got the impression from Phil Jackson's book that Shaq does not warm up enough to get game ready all the time. That would make me think that it is possible he is not game ready now.

The real question, as others have alluded, is will he be ready come the Spring?

Website · by **pup** » Sat Oct 31, 2009 3:58 pm

Remember the days when we all got pissed because this team played like the regular season did not matter?

Then last year, they played like it meant everything?

Seems like they found out that wasn't the magic pill. Unbeatable at home and home court throughout did not get it done.

Have they decided that "wasting" the effort in October/November/December just isn't worth it?

Of course, they were 1-2 last year as well, so maybe they just hate October.

Will they all fall into line with Shaq and cruise through a few months? And is that OK?

by **FUDU** » Sat Oct 31, 2009 4:04 pm

Hopefully he's self-actualized. Hopefully he understands that at his age and with miles on that body he's a complementary player and not a co-host. He can earn himself another $30m over the next three years if he'll allow himself to see it and be it. He's capable of dominating a given game but not a season.

If he gets that the Cavs will be fine IMO. If he doesn't they will be focked.

Because he's still a beast and a handful down low.

Agreed for the most part but all I am saying (as a few others have mentioned already this early season) it really doesn't matter how good a shape Shaq is in or how motivated, if MB and his staff cannot find a way to get Shaq out of LeBron lanes then it is going to be a long hard road, reg or post season.

Phil was able to keep Shaq out of Kobe's way when Kobe needed a lane but let's not forget Kobe could stop and pop without getting all the way to Shaq. LeBron for some strange reason still doesn't have that in his bag o tricks, or he doesn't like to use it anyway. Also for LeBron to post his man up (like all of us have wanted him to do for 3 years) there is no way he can do that with frequent success if Shaq is roasting marshmallows under the rim.

by **OldDawg** » Sat Oct 31, 2009 9:34 pm

Random thoughts on Shaq and some comments in this thread.

1) Shaq for Wallace/Sasha IS a no-brainer. We were a good team last year without Big Ben or Sasha. Only issue is we did not force the team to play with Ben and Sasha. We will force the team to play with Shaq.

2) Always concerned that basketball now is an afterthought with Shaq. He has all of his other distractions that control his life. This affects his conditioning/weight/etc. Shaq probably hasn't touched a basketball since last season. I am sorry. When you get paid what he get's paid, he there should be some expectation of off-season preparation. However, I am sure the Cavs (and anyone else taking Shaq) know that's the way it is.

3) I would have felt better about "how to use Shaq and Lebron together" had we not lost our OC to Detroit. Making Shaq fit is all on the staff.

4) Shaq and Z NEVER belong on the floor at the same time. In the summer I joked about this possibility in the summer, thinking it would never happen. Talk about not defending the perimeter or pick and roll!!

5) Will Brown have the tesitcular fortitude to not play Shaq at the end of tight games. Zs 80% at the FT line makes more sense than Shaq's 08%

by CP » Sat Oct 31, 2009 9:45 pm

Way too early to even start talking about this subject... Brown is going to run the team and offense like he always has until they work on something else in live action enough to change it up, so I fully expect to see that defense where Shaq struggles for a month or so.

He can't play that same defense with Shaq showing on the pick and roll, and he'll figure it out. This acquisition will do nothing but help keep Z fresh, Shaq fresh and let the Cavs have some options all year. No longer will we see Ben Wallace and Joe Smith play 20-30 minutes a game in the front court. Team will learn to play with Shaq on both ends of the floor.

by **Orenthal** » Sun Nov 01, 2009 11:09 am

FUDU wrote:IF and ONLY if they get him out of LeBron's way.

If not I don't care if Shaq loses 60lbs and shoots 80% from the floor or line it won't work well.

Minus a few PPG in these first four, ony 14 last night, LeBron's stat line doesn't look much different from last year...

by **Prosecutor** » Sun Nov 01, 2009 9:09 pm

Writes Bob Finnan for the News Herald and Lorain Morning Journal:

O'Neal is one of the all-time great centers, arguably in the top five. But he has a way of clogging up the machinery on the court.

It's probably no coincidence the Cavs' offense flowed way more efficiently after O'Neal was sent to the bench with foul trouble in Minnesota on Friday.

Cavs coach Mike Brown has been trying to pawn the offense's problems off on new personnel. This observer thinks it has more to do with the Cavs trying to force-feed O'Neal into their system.

That's all I'm saying.

Yes, it was a no-brainer to trade Wallace and Sasha for Shaq. We basically got him for nothing. I'm just wondering if eventually Z will end up playing more minutes, and playing the critical minutes. Because right now the Cavs are better with Z in the game and Shaq on the bench.

by **scott** » Mon Nov 02, 2009 11:23 am

Three things about Shaq on the Cavs.

1) He starts slow. He started slow 5 years ago. They guy doesn't round into shape until a couple months into the system.

2) All the concern was over how having Shaq on the floor would affect LeBron's game. It won't, but it has had a negative effect on Z. His game before was to float between the low block and out to the elbow. When he floated out to the elbow his guy was usually following the ball and he got an uncontested 15 footer. With Shaq on the low post he doesn't know where to stand and his defender can just sit on him outside.

3) All these rumors about trading Z. I get that the team that trades for him could buy him out and he could come back. I haven't seen mentioned on a message board or by the media the possibility that Shaq gets traded. That 20 mil could bring something back in a last ditch salvage effort if this team isn't getting it together by the deadline (end of Jan) or if Shaq is really done. Maybe the legs don't come back this year. Why wouldn't they look to trade him? There will be a couple teams desperate to shed salary by then and the Cavs could take on a long term deal or two. Get back a scoring PF and a defensive big man to slow down D12 (i.e. what Shaq was brought here to do for a lot less $).

by **Guest** » Mon Nov 02, 2009 12:29 pm

Shaq is not a slow starter. Not sure where that urban myth started.

Oh, and Ben Wallace is averaging 4.3 ppg and 10.3 rpg. He also plays defense.

Z has played more minutes and scored more points than Shaq so far.

by **papacass** » Mon Nov 02, 2009 2:22 pm

GodHatesClevelandSports wrote:Shaq is not a slow starter. Not sure where that urban myth started.

Oh, and Ben Wallace is averaging 4.3 ppg and 10.3 rpg. He also plays defense.

Z has played more minutes and scored more points than Shaq so far.

Would anyone care to go to the tale of the tape? We have one side assuming that Shaq is a slow starter, and another assuming that the whole notion is folklore. Evidence for either side, please?

As for Wallace averaging 10 rebounds per game? He's starting at C for the Pistons again. This would be a Pistons team now without Dice, Sheed or any other interior defensive presence to speak of. Tayshaun Prince is Detroit's second-leading rebounder at five per game.

I haven't had a chance to watch the Pistons yet, but if it's anything like the Pistons teams of mid-decade, the other four guys are outletting as soon as the ball hits the rim. There is no rebounding-by-committee. One man, one job. No one else is grabbing boards for the Pistons besides Wallace.

Last year, as a PF, he was surrounded by Z, LBJ and Andy, who all grabbed more than seven rebounds per game. Then he broke his leg and really wasn't the same after.

So if you're trying to use Wallace's start vs. Shaq's start as evidence that maybe the Cavs would have just been better off holding onto Big Ben, I'm here to peel back the onion layers on that one.

by **Guest** » Mon Nov 02, 2009 2:51 pm

I'm just stating the facts. Opinion from the facts could be stated as the Cavs didn't exactly give up NOTHING to get Shaq if one of the guys they gave up is 12th in the league in rebounds per game. Shaq's not exactly the $20 you found in your jeans pocket this morning.

Now, where Wallace goes from here, who knows. It's doubtful that he's found the fountain of youth and most likely will settle into the area of declining numbers he's found himself in the last three years. It could just be that he's benefitted team playing against two of the top three bricklaying teams in the NBA so far for a team that emphasizes defense and allows the fourth-lowest FG% in the league. But it could also be that the difference in Shaq and Ben Wallace is no longer as wide as Shaq's wingspan.

The fallacy that Shaq is a slow starter can be disputed simply by looking up Shaq's stats.

2008: 16 games in October/November = 14.9 ppg, 8.5 rpg (finished 17.8, 8.4)
2007: 15 games in November = 16.3 ppg, 7.7 rpg (finished 13.6, 9.1)
2006: injured much of the year until February -- I guess that counts as a slow start
2005: injured most of November -- ditto
2004: 16 games in November = 20.9 ppg, 12.1 rpg (finished 22.9, 10.4)

Looks like when he's not injured, he finishes pretty much as he starts.

Does any of this mean the Cavs should not have made the trade? Perhaps it's not an either/or, make the trade or don't make the trade. Maybe there were other roads the team could have traveled. Nobody would have been clamoring for this trade to be made if Shaq's name were Udonis Haslem. But so far, that's who the Cavs got.

by **papacass** » Tue Nov 03, 2009 10:32 am

GodHatesClevelandSports wrote:I'm just stating the facts. Opinion from the facts could be stated as the Cavs didn't exactly give up NOTHING to get Shaq if one of the guys they gave up is 12th in the league in rebounds per game. Shaq's not exactly the $20 you found in your jeans pocket this morning.

Now, where Wallace goes from here, who knows. It's doubtful that he's found the fountain of youth and most likely will settle into the area of declining numbers he's found himself in the last three years. It could just be that he's benefitted team playing against two of the top three bricklaying teams in the NBA so far for a team that emphasizes defense and allows the fourth-lowest FG% in the league. But it could also be that the difference in Shaq and Ben Wallace is no longer as wide as Shaq's wingspan.

The fallacy that Shaq is a slow starter can be disputed simply by looking up Shaq's stats.

2008: 16 games in October/November = 14.9 ppg, 8.5 rpg (finished 17.8, 8.4)
2007: 15 games in November = 16.3 ppg, 7.7 rpg (finished 13.6, 9.1)
2006: injured much of the year until February -- I guess that counts as a slow start
2005: injured most of November -- ditto
2004: 16 games in November = 20.9 ppg, 12.1 rpg (finished 22.9, 10.4)

Looks like when he's not injured, he finishes pretty much as he starts.

Does any of this mean the Cavs should not have made the trade? Perhaps it's not an either/or, make the trade or don't make the trade. Maybe there were other roads the team could have traveled. Nobody would have been clamoring for this trade to be made if Shaq's name were Udonis Haslem. But so far, that's who the Cavs got.

You stated the facts, but you didn't state all the facts in your last post. There is a reason why Ben is averaging 10 RPG, and it has everything to do with 1) being helathy for now and 2) playing on a team that severely lacks interior players besides him. Charlie Villanueva is their starting PF.

As for his D, which Shaq allegedly can't play anymore, who among us wasn't crying out for the Cavs to get bigger interior players after the ECF? Maybe Shaq is used up, but he's still 7'-1" and 330 pounds of used up. Wallace is a fine defender when he's healthy, but he's still an exaggerated 6'-9" (probably more like 6'-7"). No way I want to go into another battle against the Magic or a healthy Celtics team with an advanced-age Ben Wallace as my best interior presence. There are way too many talented 7-footers the Cavs need to get through to win a title.

by jb » Tue Nov 03, 2009 11:11 am

Yes or no.

It comes down to expectations.

If anyone, worst of all Shaq, thinks that he is still a key cog and the O should regularly go to him, then yes, huge mistake.

If he's seen as a situational player for certain games and matchups, he could be the last prt of the puzzle.....if Delonte isn't nutso.... if Mo can get his stroke back.... if Powe heals ..... if Bonston tires..... if the Magic struggle.... if Roker can make it work.... if Shaq's ego can subjegate and he stays healthy...

by **aoxo1** » Tue Nov 03, 2009 11:37 am

GodHatesClevelandSports wrote:I'm just stating the facts. Opinion from the facts could be stated as the Cavs didn't exactly give up NOTHING to get Shaq if one of the guys they gave up is 12th in the league in rebounds per game.

No, they did give up essentially nothing. Do you think Ben Wallace is anything more than a name on the IL for a contender?

Exactly how much did he help us last year?

Christ.

What is this, a Dave Berri column?

by **CTownYaga** » Tue Nov 03, 2009 12:19 pm

Ben Wallace is a joke these days. He may have had an energy spurt in the first week of the season, but watch, soon enough he will devolve back into the waste of a roster spot 30-something over the hill former NBA star that he was last year.

by **Guest** » Tue Nov 03, 2009 12:31 pm

aoxo1 wrote:
GodHatesClevelandSports wrote:I'm just stating the facts. Opinion from the facts could be stated as the Cavs didn't exactly give up NOTHING to get Shaq if one of the guys they gave up is 12th in the league in rebounds per game.

No, they did give up essentially nothing. Do you think Ben Wallace is anything more than a name on the IL for a contender?

Exactly how much did he help us last year?

Christ.

What is this, a Dave Berri column?

Ben Wallace is 12th in the league in rebounds.

Sorry, that's not nothing.

Shaq has almost the exact same stats as Udonis Haslem. No one would have gone crazy over the Cavs trading for Udonis Haslem.

Sure, the jury is still out. Plenty of season for things to turn out the way they were envisioned. But this is what is right now.

I believe tonight's game is a big indicator for the rest of the season. Washington gave the Cavs trouble last year as a dog team. Now Agent Zero is back and they have a nice, young inside presence in Andray Blatche, who is hitting 71% of his shots while playing 32 minutes per game. This is a real test for Shaq and the Cavs interior defense. They might need to use Andy on Blatche tonite.

by **e0y2e3** » Tue Nov 03, 2009 12:37 pm

To be fair (and I am in no way agreeding w/ this silly take, that said I am still not sure Shaq is the answer) Big Ben pre injury last year had some of the highest plus-minus impacts on the team. Data suggests he had a great impact on everyone around him.

That said we have already discussed Wayne Winston refusing to trade for KDurant because of his terrible adjusted +/- and at this very moment the you can do some five man rotation +/- analysis and conclude... well... this:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=3855

by **papacass** » Tue Nov 03, 2009 12:46 pm

GodHatesClevelandSports wrote:
aoxo1 wrote:
GodHatesClevelandSports wrote:I'm just stating the facts. Opinion from the facts could be stated as the Cavs didn't exactly give up NOTHING to get Shaq if one of the guys they gave up is 12th in the league in rebounds per game.

No, they did give up essentially nothing. Do you think Ben Wallace is anything more than a name on the IL for a contender?

Exactly how much did he help us last year?

Christ.

What is this, a Dave Berri column?

Ben Wallace is 12th in the league in rebounds.

Sorry, that's not nothing.

Shaq has almost the exact same stats as Udonis Haslem. No one would have gone crazy over the Cavs trading for Udonis Haslem.

Sure, the jury is still out. Plenty of season for things to turn out the way they were envisioned. But this is what is right now.

I believe tonight's game is a big indicator for the rest of the season. Washington gave the Cavs trouble last year as a dog team. Now Agent Zero is back and they have a nice, young inside presence in Andray Blatche, who is hitting 71% of his shots while playing 32 minutes per game. This is a real test for Shaq and the Cavs interior defense. They might need to use Andy on Blatche tonite.

Stat matching is, again, not the basis for a good argument in this case. Nobody would have gone crazy over Udonis Haslem because -- well, first of all, he's not Shaq -- but second, he's a 6'-8", 230-pound PF. The Cavs don't need a 6'-8", 230-pound PF to match up with other teams' centers.

Shaq was brought in to patrol the paint on D and give the Cavs a post-scoring presence when needed, which frankly won't be often. I think that over the past weekend, Roker started to see that you don't need to force-feed Shaq the ball on the block. Give him a few token touches at the start of the game like you did with Z when he started, and then let LBJ and Mo do what they did last year.

Shaq is a matcup guy on the Dwight Howards of the league, and I honestly don't care if he matches up while averaging 18 PPG and 10 RPG, or 10 and 7. Just level the playing field on Howard, Bynum, Gasol etc. enough so that they don't run amok. If Shaq can do that next spring, I really don't care how many PPG he has. He'll need to grab some boards, but with Andy, Z and LBJ, he doesn't have to be a one-man glass cleaner, either.

Ferry went out and got Shaq because he thinks Shaq can help them in their particular situation. Maybe he will, maybe he won't. But the fact that Wallace is grabbing more boards in a different team set-up, or a guy who is five inches shorter and 100 pounds lighter is putting up similar stats, is irrelevant.

EDIT: Wiz are still going to be without Jamison, and might be without Butler tonight as well. If that's the case, you're not going to get a great rest-of-season litmus test out of the Wizards tonight. If the Cavs lose to the Wiz sans Jamison and Butler, it will be because they played crappy basketball against Gilbert Arenas and Mike Miller, and Blatche was a one-man wrecking crew inside. In other words, a bag-over-head kind of game.

by **Guest** » Tue Nov 03, 2009 1:03 pm

The fact that Ben Wallace is 12th in rebounds means he can still play. Now, that does not mean he would still be able to fit in with the Cavs. It means he is not washed up. Yes, we all know that Shaq was brought in to handle Dwight Howard and Pau Gasol and whatever other big men the good teams have. If he can't handle the big men on the bad teams, that should erode confidence that he's suddenly going to turn Howard into DeSegana Diop just because that's how Danny Ferry imagines it.

The Cavs should have serious concerns if Washington fries them inside tonight.

by **Prosecutor** » Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:42 am

Here's the +/- after six games:

AV +63
LBJ +42
AP +33
Mo +18
West +16
Boobie +13
Shaq +4
Z +2
Moon -22
JJ -36

That pretty much agrees with what I'm seeing. Andy is playing exceptionally well. He gets every rebound, he disrupts the opponent's offense by deflecting passes and creating turnovers, he gets easy buckets on perfectly timed cuts off LBJ drives, and he gets offensive boards and tips rebounds to other players. His mobility on defense enables the Cavs to switch defending the pick-and-roll, which they can't do with Z an Shaq, as Windhorst pointed out in the column on the Bulls loss. He's not taking as many charges as in previous years, but that could be because the refs are on to his flopping and he's not getting the calls as much.

Shaq is +4, meaning he's neutral. He's not killing the team when he's on the floor but he's not really helping either - less than a point a game. Somebody said he's a matchup player for the Dwight Howards of the league - unfortunately that may be the case.

Hopefully Brown will stop experimenting with Shaq and Z on the court together and that will improve their +/- numbers. We also need JJ Hickson to get his head out of his butt and contribute something; Andy can't play 48 minutes a night. Either JJ or Moon needs to step up. Moon has fallen so low he didn't play a minute in a 1 point loss to the Bulls, and that was a game where Z and JJ combined for 0-for-13 from the field. Brown needs to find a way to get something out of JJ or Moon. Otherwise they need to find a way to get Joe Smith or Ben Wallace back.

by **aoxo1** » Fri Nov 06, 2009 3:03 pm

Prosecutor wrote:Here's the +/- after six games:

AV +63
LBJ +42
AP +33
Mo +18
West +16
Boobie +13
Shaq +4
Z +2
Moon -22
JJ -36

That pretty much agrees with what I'm seeing. Andy is playing exceptionally well. He gets every rebound, he disrupts the opponent's offense by deflecting passes and creating turnovers, he gets easy buckets on perfectly timed cuts off LBJ drives, and he gets offensive boards and tips rebounds to other players. His mobility on defense enables the Cavs to switch defending the pick-and-roll, which they can't do with Z an Shaq, as Windhorst pointed out in the column on the Bulls loss. He's not taking as many charges as in previous years, but that could be because the refs are on to his flopping and he's not getting the calls as much.

Shaq is +4, meaning he's neutral. He's not killing the team when he's on the floor but he's not really helping either - less than a point a game. Somebody said he's a matchup player for the Dwight Howards of the league - unfortunately that may be the case.

Hopefully Brown will stop experimenting with Shaq and Z on the court together and that will improve their +/- numbers. We also need JJ Hickson to get his head out of his butt and contribute something; Andy can't play 48 minutes a night. Either JJ or Moon needs to step up. Moon has fallen so low he didn't play a minute in a 1 point loss to the Bulls, and that was a game where Z and JJ combined for 0-for-13 from the field. Brown needs to find a way to get something out of JJ or Moon. Otherwise they need to find a way to get Joe Smith or Ben Wallace back.

Besides the fact that this is after 6 games and is nearly meaningless because of it, you hit on exactly why it is ridiculous to think it is a fair assessment of Shaq. If you can separate out his +/- with and without Z on the floor, it would have some credibility. 82games doesn't have any of their stuff up for this year yet.

by **e0y2e3** » Fri Nov 06, 2009 3:08 pm

Yeah, only way to look at it is the 5 man rotations.

That said if I get the incling I may email Pelton at Basketball Prospectus for some real analysis on exactly how bad Z is hurting this team statistically in a few weeks.

by **Prosecutor** » Fri Nov 06, 2009 5:06 pm

People keep saying the sample size is too small and there's nothing to worry about. The Cavs have played 298 minutes of basketball against opponents ranging from the undefeated Celtics to the 1-4 Timberwolves, so I'd say that's enough to draw some valid conclusions.

Charles Barkley thinks the Cavs are a good but not great team. Based on the results so far, he's right.

They lost to Boston (6-0) and Chicago (3-2) at home, and Toronto (2-2) on the road.

They beat Charlotte (2-2), Washington (2-3), and Minn (1-4).

That breaks down to 0-2 against winning teams, 1-1 against .500 teams, and 2-0 against losing teams.

Looks like a mediocre team so far.

OK, it's obvious Brown is experimenting with the rotation and different player combinations. It looks like West missing all the preseason games and most of the practices is affecting his game. Hickson and Moon are completely lost out there, but there's plenty of time for them to find a role. So it's realistic to expect some improvement as West gets into his groove and Brown figures out which combinations work the best.

There's a lot of work to be done before this team will be able to compete for a Championship. The real question is whether it's just a matter of time and tweaking, or are the right pieces just not there. I'm hoping it's the first but it's starting to look like the second.

by **Guest** » Fri Nov 06, 2009 6:11 pm

Furthermore, the Cavs were 6-1 against Chicago and Toronto last year. They've averaged just 44 wins a season during LeBron's career, so this year's team is right in line with that. Now, you can take out his first season (35 wins) and say they've really averaged 50 wins per season since LeBron established himself.

It's looking more and more like last year's 66 wins were the aberration.

Cleveland Cavaliers & The NBA

Who is online

Who is online