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Getting a head start on the Rule 5 Draft

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Unread postby consigliere » Thu Dec 13, 2007 12:04 pm

Newsom is my favorite person in the org. Can't wait to sit down and talk to him, as he has such a great down-to-earth personality and is hilarious.

That was a great read.

By the way, from what I was told, he got out of his contract okay and is finally home (I believe that piece was actually penned a few days ago).
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Unread postby dnosco » Sat Dec 15, 2007 10:28 am

The Cardinals traded Jim Edmonds to San Diego for a high Class A third base prospect.

They now have 5 outfielders on their roster: Chris Duncan, Rick Ankiel, Ryan Ludwick, Skip Schumaker and Brian Barton. Of those, only Schumaker has a legitimate chance to play CF...aside from Barton and St. Louis' top prospect, Colby Rasmus, who has not played above AA.

Looking more and more like Barton isn't coming back.

Ouch, a top 10 or top 20 prospect being lost in the Rule 5 draft.
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Unread postby paulcousineau » Sat Dec 15, 2007 10:40 am

dnosco wrote:The Cardinals traded Jim Edmonds to San Diego for a high Class A third base prospect.

They now have 5 outfielders on their roster: Chris Duncan, Rick Ankiel, Ryan Ludwick, Skip Schumaker and Brian Barton. Of those, only Schumaker has a legitimate chance to play CF...aside from Barton and St. Louis' top prospect, Colby Rasmus, who has not played above AA.

Looking more and more like Barton isn't coming back.

Ouch, a top 10 or top 20 prospect being lost in the Rule 5 draft.


Agreed that Barton was a nice prospect, but isn't he behind the likes of Gutierrez, Francisco, and Choo with Jordan Brown and Trevor Crowe (though I'm far from high on T-Crowe going back a while) coming soon in the organizational pecking order?

Considering that Sizemore will man CF, there's only so much stockpiling of OF prospects that we can stash on the 40-man, particularly if some of them merely project as 4th OF. With the dearth of upper-level MI prospects (after AstroCab), nothing behind Torregas at C, and the young corner guys further down the line, the team needed to prioritize their OF and protect accordingly.

I agree that Barton is a nice prospect, but he's also tremendously old for the levels that he has played at and I'd prefer to keep the higher-ceiling players like Brad Snyder or Michael Aubrey (I'm wincing as I write that) whose talent COULD someday translate to more than a bench/platoon role as it seems that Barton does.
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Unread postby consigliere » Sat Dec 15, 2007 2:50 pm

The DiaTriber wrote:Considering that Sizemore will man CF, there's only so much stockpiling of OF prospects that we can stash on the 40-man, particularly if some of them merely project as 4th OF. With the dearth of upper-level MI prospects (after AstroCab), nothing behind Torregas at C, and the young corner guys further down the line, the team needed to prioritize their OF and protect accordingly.


I have to concur 110% with this.

I hate losing Barton, but with such a crowded situation in the outfield in the system, we were bound to lose someone. Next year, it gets even crazier as Crowe and Brown need to be protected, among others.

I'd be a ton more upset had we lost a top middle infield prospect because we are severely lacking there. Plus, losing a player like Barton to me just shows how deep the system is. We can't protect everyone. And while people will say we could have removed a Snyder, Aubrey, Slocum, Lara, etc.....it still goes back to filling the extra 15 spots for the 40-man as depth for the 25-man roster....and you can't have too many outfielders on there.
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Unread postby dnosco » Sat Dec 15, 2007 3:52 pm

Diatriber,

I have always had a problem with the, well, we have so many prospects at that position it's not that much of a problem. Usually this result is used to justify bad trades, losses to waivers or the Rule and things like that. While I agree that makes Barton EXPENDABLE I don't believe it makes him WORTHLESS OR CLOSE TO WORTHLESS. Sorry for the caps but that is the argument. Expendable is far from worthless. The guy was our #5 prospect entering this year and, except for a power outage, was every bit of that #5 prospect. The only question about him IS whether his power will ever come back and he will ever be more than a 4th outfielder. It's quite a gamble to say that he won't be given his lofty prospect status less than a year ago and his 2007 numbers.

I hate losing Barton, but with such a crowded situation in the outfield in the system, we were bound to lose someone.

Tony, we were bound to have someone be expendable for trade in the future and there was no way to keep all these guys for all of their careers. There is a difference and it seems that, in many cases, expendable and worthless (or worth giving away for nothing because we have excess) are being used interchangably. You protect your top 40 guys, and don't fail to protect an outfielder because you have more outfielders than you need. Sure, trade the guy but with some of the guys who remained on our 40-man roster I think we had enough fluff to clear room for Barton.

Guys, just because the loss doesn't hurt our OF depth doesn't mean it isn't a really bad waste of resources.
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Unread postby paulcousineau » Sat Dec 15, 2007 4:49 pm

dnosco wrote:Diatriber,

I have always had a problem with the, well, we have so many prospects at that position it's not that much of a problem. Usually this result is used to justify bad trades, losses to waivers or the Rule and things like that. While I agree that makes Barton EXPENDABLE I don't believe it makes him WORTHLESS OR CLOSE TO WORTHLESS. Sorry for the caps but that is the argument. Expendable is far from worthless. The guy was our #5 prospect entering this year and, except for a power outage, was every bit of that #5 prospect. The only question about him IS whether his power will ever come back and he will ever be more than a 4th outfielder. It's quite a gamble to say that he won't be given his lofty prospect status less than a year ago and his 2007 numbers.


I do agree with this to a point. At some point you have to slot your talent to prioritize it by position. Obviously, you can't merely keep all OF on the 40-man because you'll be caught short elsewere.

I don't think Barton is worthless at all (STL doesn't think so), I think that he slots lower than other OF in our organization which made him more expendable than the other prospects.

His age (he'll be 26 in April) has to also play a huge role. If you're figuring that he spends 2008 in Buffalo and gets a shot in Cleveland in 2009, you're talking about a 28-year-old rookie trying to break in.
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Unread postby Duane Kuiper » Sat Dec 15, 2007 7:58 pm

dnosco wrote:While I agree that makes Barton EXPENDABLE I don't believe it makes him WORTHLESS OR CLOSE TO WORTHLESS.

Exactly. You don't spend years of development on a guy, get him to be a top 10 prospect in your system, to give him away for $50,000.
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Unread postby consigliere » Sun Dec 16, 2007 12:28 am

No one is saying Barton is worthless. All I am saying is he was caught in a numbers game. Again, it came down to keeping Snyder, Choo, Francisco and others on.....or removing one of them to add Barton.

I just can't get worked up about that.

Now, what I can get a little worked up about is that we maybe were not proactive in trade talks with him (then again, maybe we were and don't know it). Also, we lost Barton because we have Michaels on this team (or Dellucci). Now THAT is worth arguing about.
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Unread postby dnosco » Wed Dec 19, 2007 2:24 pm

I post this only for the comic value:

http://www.talk-sports.net/mlb/sucks.aspx/Wyatt_Toregas

No, I didn't start this and I don't think that about Toregas. It just shows that on the internet you can find just about anything.
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Unread postby MadThinker88 » Wed Dec 19, 2007 2:37 pm

Dennis,

I'm glad you didn't start that page but it just goes to show that some people have WAAAAAYYYYYYY too much time on their hands.

While I saw the page, I didn't any posts or comments there against/ about Wyatt.
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Unread postby dnosco » Sun Feb 10, 2008 1:08 pm

From today's news reports:

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sports ... enDocument

z"8. Who are the long shots with the best chance to stick?

Rasmus' making the club would likely come at Schumaker's expense. Barton must either make the opening-day roster or be offered back to the Cleveland Indians for $25,000.

The Cardinals will open the season with 12 pitchers. Two catchers and likely seven infielders leave room for only four outfielders. Ankiel and Duncan are set. Ryan Ludwick offers righthanded power. Barring a convincing spring by Juan Gonzalez, there probably will be room for one of the three — Rasmus, Schumaker and Barton. Righthanded bat Joe Mather, who cranked 31 home runs between Springfield and Memphis, could shake up camp by reproducing last summer's power stroke."

Still think this one will end up in a trade as I don't think Barton will be ready and most of the rest of the guys appear to be more ready and are already on LaRussa's radar. I am eyeing Mitchell Boggs, a righthanded pitcher (BA's #9 prospect in the Cardinals' organization) and Blake King (#26) in return. Given that Barton is rated as their #4 prospect this seems like a reasonable return to me.

Not a lot on Whitney right now.
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Unread postby MadThinker88 » Sun Feb 10, 2008 4:16 pm

Interesting ideas Dennis. I think I would be trying to restock the middlie of the infield.

One other thing, I doubt Shapiro would take back players that need to be on the 40 man roster right after the 08 season.
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Unread postby dnosco » Sun Feb 10, 2008 5:23 pm

Boggs does and King doesn't have to be on the 40, I think. Besides, he may want bodies to compete for open starting pitching positions next year if we lose CC and Byrd...and you can never have too much pitching.
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Unread postby dnosco » Mon Feb 18, 2008 11:54 am

Nick Johnson appears strong and Dimitri Young is a former all-star plus they have other guys on the Nationals who could beat out Whitney.

Given that I am looking at getting back Adam Carr and Stephen King. Carr was #13 in BA and #8 in Sickels and King was #26 in BA.

Carr is a reliever who is up to AA and throws 97 mph and King is a middle infielder drafted out of HS a couple of years ago.
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Unread postby dnosco » Wed Mar 05, 2008 5:24 pm

Barton 4-5 today. Six hits in his last two games. The chances of him coming back took a big downturn today although the chances of us getting decent value for him if the Cardinals want to send him down took an upturn.

Whitney still 0-fer. Hasn't played in a couple of days.
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Unread postby ArtGold » Wed Mar 05, 2008 8:23 pm

Whitney is the one I want to make sure we get back.

I think Barton will make the major league squad, I envision him having the type of abilities matching up to a Doug Glanville type of hitter. I wouldn't be surprised to see him develop into a .280 batter with acceptable walk rate and a dozen HRs a year with good speed. Nothing special, but definitely competent.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/g/glanvdo01.shtml
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Unread postby dnosco » Sun Mar 16, 2008 10:06 am

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sports ... enDocument

If Mark Shapiro has a brain in his head he starts negotiating hard with the Cardinals who clearly would like the flexibility to send Barton to the minors but, given that that is not an option, will probably keep him on their ML roster. If we can give St. Louis that flexibility now in exchange for a decent prospect or two (see my suggestion above) I would do it in a heartbeat because this flexibility thing is the only leverage we have right now.
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Unread postby WiscTribeFan » Sun Mar 16, 2008 12:58 pm

dnosco wrote:http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sports/stories.nsf/cardinals/story/91EC8FEEAB80803D8625740E000D9484?OpenDocument

If Mark Shapiro has a brain in his head he starts negotiating hard with the Cardinals who clearly would like the flexibility to send Barton to the minors but, given that that is not an option, will probably keep him on their ML roster. If we can give St. Louis that flexibility now in exchange for a decent prospect or two (see my suggestion above) I would do it in a heartbeat because this flexibility thing is the only leverage we have right now.


With Juan Gone's issues, I think it's pretty likely that Barton can and will make the Cardinals roster out of ST. The article itself stated the obvious:

Should the Cardinals fail to keep Barton on their opening day roster, he must be offered back to the Cleveland Indians for $25,000, an offer the Indians certainly would accept. Barton's play has been so strong, according to organizational thinking, the Indians are unlikely to accept a trade that would allow the Cardinals to option Barton to Triple-A Memphis.
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Unread postby dnosco » Mon Mar 17, 2008 11:10 am

Wisc,

Probably true but if I am Shapiro I am making an offer right now to give the Cardinals flexibility. I wonder if that flexibility is worth anything to St. Louis? If it is, and we all know Barton is not coming back, maybe we capitalize on our only chance to get something for him right now.
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Unread postby TribeNut » Mon Mar 17, 2008 12:41 pm

Why would Shapiro have to start negotiating hard? If the Cards are the team that wants him, wouldn't that make it their priority to negotiate hard?

I find it strange that a team with that weak of an OF situation is not finding room for Brian Barton. You mean to tell me he is being held back by a hGH freak platoon player (Ankiel), a walking injury (Ludwick), Chris Duncan, and Juan Gonzalez? If the Cards, who are going to be a below .500 team, can't find a roster spot for Barton when their OF is THAT awful then I don't see how hard bargaining is going to get the Cards' GM to budge. Why would he trade a prospect when he has readily available 25-man spots that would make Barton 'free'? He probably has pipedreams of his team competing, but still.

If their GM is really that dumb, I say screw the Cards and happily accept Brian back. Find another team to deal him to, b/c if he is already being roadblocked in the worst OF in baseball then it would be a disservice to send him there.
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Unread postby ArtGold » Mon Mar 17, 2008 11:41 pm

I agree with Dennis, we should be looking at what kind of trade we could make with the Cards to allow them to keep Barton. I'm kind of thinking RHP Tyler Herron and LHP Brad Furnish (BA prospects #10 and #18. Both are young and a few years away, giving us more long term competitive pitching depth.
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Unread postby dnosco » Tue Mar 18, 2008 1:12 pm

TribeNut wrote:Why would Shapiro have to start negotiating hard? If the Cards are the team that wants him, wouldn't that make it their priority to negotiate hard?

I find it strange that a team with that weak of an OF situation is not finding room for Brian Barton. You mean to tell me he is being held back by a hGH freak platoon player (Ankiel), a walking injury (Ludwick), Chris Duncan, and Juan Gonzalez? If the Cards, who are going to be a below .500 team, can't find a roster spot for Barton when their OF is THAT awful then I don't see how hard bargaining is going to get the Cards' GM to budge. Why would he trade a prospect when he has readily available 25-man spots that would make Barton 'free'? He probably has pipedreams of his team competing, but still.

If their GM is really that dumb, I say screw the Cards and happily accept Brian back. Find another team to deal him to, b/c if he is already being roadblocked in the worst OF in baseball then it would be a disservice to send him there.


Yeah, low odds this is going to happen but he is not coming back and the only question is do the Cardinals definitely feel he is going to make the team or are they still on the fence. Don't you think this flexibility might be worth something to the Cardinals if Barton was to struggle at some point during the year?

Hey, it's a wild thought.

Regarding the Cardinals wanting to negotiate hard, why should they? He is looking more like a lock to make the opening day roster. The only reason to trade with the Indians now is to make sure they have flexibility later in the year.

And, yes, I definitely think Shapiro should be exploring this avenue hard or we get nothing for Barton.
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Unread postby Indians88 » Sat Mar 22, 2008 12:16 pm

We've got Whitney back fellas.

Via mlb.com
VIERA, Fla. -- The Nationals have returned first baseman Matthew Whitney to the Indians, per Rule 5 Draft guidelines, and reassigned left-hander Mike O'Connor to Minor League camp.

Washington's roster is now at 32.

The Nationals selected Whitney in the Rule 5 Draft last December in hopes that he could be a power hitter off the bench, but the Nationals already have enough quality reserves on their roster.

This spring, Whitney went 3-for-28 (.107) with a homer and six RBIs. The Nationals will get back half of the $50,000 they spent for selecting Whitney in the Rule 5 Draft.
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Unread postby British_Pharaoh » Sat Mar 22, 2008 12:19 pm

coolios
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Unread postby MadThinker88 » Sat Mar 22, 2008 12:55 pm

Give PRAISE to the Lord for Whitney hath Returned.
:cheers: :cheers: :cheers:

Now get him up to Kinston to start the year and up to Akron by June 1.

(agree) :-) :smile: :)
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Unread postby dazindiansfanuk » Sat Mar 22, 2008 1:05 pm

Great, but expected, news!

Hopefully he won't suffer a hangover like Goleski did.
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Unread postby Mcreek » Sat Mar 22, 2008 2:40 pm

Glad MW is back but there is a huge logjam at first base with the likes of Aubrey, Jordan Brown, Brad Mills, Stephen Head and MW. Of that group only Whitney is a righthanded hitter.

The Goleski comparison is a valid one but hopefully MW develops more plate discipline and plate coverage.
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Unread postby consigliere » Sat Mar 22, 2008 3:35 pm

Yeah, Whit will be in camp tomorrow (Sun). Looking forward to tracking him down if possible.

Man, we are loaded at 1B right now. With Brown and Mulhern splitting at 1B/DH in Buffalo, Whitney and Aubrey splitting at DH/1B in Akron, Martin/Mills splitting at 1B in Kinston, Nash/Realini at 1B in Lake County.....wow.

Nash may be the best of the bunch before long. Big power. Kid should be a power forward for the Cavaliers and was a D-1 recruit as a tight end, but chose to play baseball. Great family and head on his shoulders.
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Unread postby dnosco » Wed Mar 26, 2008 4:10 pm

Barton was hit in the face by a 3-2 pitch in his second at bat today, taken off the field bleeding from the face. Given the account on the Cardinals forum on a certain unnamed website, it was the 3rd pitch up around Barton's head in the at bat!
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Unread postby dnosco » Wed Mar 26, 2008 5:14 pm

Now appears was possibly a curveball that glanced off his shoulder before hitting him in the nose. No official word yet but doesn't appear as bad as I first thought, thank goodness.
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Unread postby dnosco » Thu Mar 27, 2008 9:51 am

St. Louis papers reporting Barton is fine.
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Unread postby chitowntribephan » Mon Mar 31, 2008 12:54 pm

However you feel about the Indians choosing not to protect Brian Barton and him getting picked up by StL, I would think just about everybody on this board has to be thrilled (and envious!) when a guy like this gets to have this experience:

http://web.minorleaguebaseball.com/news ... &fext=.jsp

Brian Barton is living the dream.

The St. Louis Cardinals rookie outfielder sat at his locker in the Busch Stadium clubhouse on Sunday afternoon and unpacked his gear. A few feet away were established big leaguers like Albert Pujols and Troy Glaus and now, for the first time in his career, he was a Major Leaguer, too.

"It's a dream come true," Barton said. "This is one of those things where you've seen where all the hard work over the years paid off and just never giving up. It's kind of one of those things where you hear a lot, 'Don't give up on your dreams,' but a lot of people don't really know the meaning of that until they actually see something that they've worked so hard for come true."


Doesn't happen very often but this is really the kind of opportunity the Rule 5 Draft should provide. While I wish the Indians weren't losing a talented player, it's great to see a guy get an opportunity and then take advantage of it.
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Unread postby consigliere » Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:02 pm

I'm going to monitor the Barton situation closely. If he goes out and does well, you have to start wondering about the org's philosophy to not push these guys a little more. Course, if he struggles, then some of their decisions are more justified.

Either way, I hope he plays well and congrats to him.
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Unread postby dnosco » Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:32 pm

I have been biting my tongue but I'll let the cat out of the bag. Back in January I asked Rich if I could do an article where I followed Whitney and Barton through spring training, interviewing them periodically. An article will appear on the website either later today or tomorrow that chronicles their spring trainings to their conclusion, Rule 5-wise. I would like to thank Brian and Matt for agreeing to be interviewed even as they were in the fight for a roster spot which, in itself, can be very stressful and Tony and Rich for helping me get this done.

As far as the Indians' not protecting Barton, I've spoken my peace on that in the Nashville Two-Step article and in this thread so I will leave that one alone.

One last point. Right before I talked to Brian Barton last night, I watched "The Rookie". I couldn't help but flash back to Barton and the similarities between how he probably felt and how the character Dennis Quaid portrayed felt and how, by Quaid's facial expressions, you could see what was going on in his mind.

Good luck to Brian in his first major league game and Matt in his climb to the majors. I wish them both the best. They both appear to be great guys and they both deserve to have their 'dream' come true.
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Unread postby consigliere » Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:41 pm

Looking forward to it Denny. Will be cool to sort of get the thoughts and perspective of these guys as they went through the Rule 5 Draft process and trying to make a team.
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Unread postby Duane Kuiper » Thu Apr 03, 2008 12:02 am

Here's the BA article on the Rule 5 picks for 2008.

http://www.baseballamerica.com/blog/prospects/?p=841#more-841

This was interesting.

Brian Barton, of, 25, Cardinals
Transactions: Signed as nondrafted free agent by Indians from Miami, May 14, 2005.
The Goods: Power, average speed, above-average defense and arm.
Status: Barton made the Cardinals’ roster as one of three rookies. The most intriguing Rule 5 selection, Barton’s exposure to the Rule 5 process may go down as a gamble as bad as the Mets decision to leave Flores, then just 22, unprotected in 2006. Barton had surgery to repair his injured right knee in the offseason, an injury that hindered him a bit in 2007 as he struggled to repeat his breakout 2006 campaign.
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