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Unread postby Guest » Mon Dec 31, 2007 9:29 pm

I'm waiting for some feedback on my rankings.
There should some blockbusters in 2008
Happy New Year to boxing fans hopefully.
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Unread postby swerb » Wed Jan 02, 2008 2:41 pm

I've got Calzaghe higher, at #3 behind Floyd and Cotto. Pacqiuao/Marquez at 4-5, Kelly at 6.

I agree with you though, Pavlik is Fighter of the Year in my book for '07. Floyd had another great year ... but Kelly took three huge fights in '07, and dominated in them all. Zertuche in Jan, Miranda in April, Taylor in Sept.

Top Ten LB for LB

1. Mayweather
2. Cotto
3. Calzaghe
4 & 5. Pacquiao - Marquez
6. Pavlik
7. Juan Diaz
8. Vasquez
9. Klitschko
10. Hopkins

Fighter of Year 2007

1. Pavlik
2. Mayweather
3. Calzaghe/Cotto
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Unread postby bustedknuckles » Wed Jan 02, 2008 5:28 pm

Both lists are solid IMO, here's mine:

1. Mayweather, 2. Cotto, 3. Calzaghe, 4. Pavlik, 5. Klitschko, 6. Pacquiao, 7. P Williams, 8. Juan Diaz, 9. I. Vasquez, 10. Juan Manual Marquez.

With a special mention to Shane Mosley.

FOY could go to any of the top 4 depending on your point of view.
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Unread postby Guest » Wed Jan 02, 2008 7:06 pm

Marquez #10?
Please explain.
And why Calzaghe over Pavlik?
Just wondering.
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Unread postby bustedknuckles » Thu Jan 03, 2008 10:16 am

Dr-glad you asked.

On my list the primary factor for Calzaghe over Kelly is longevity...he's been performing at a PFP level for longer than Kelly. Although in my mind he's probably hit the terminal point on my list and will either maintain that spot or drop, while Kelly has the upside to move into one of the top two spots with another year like 07.

Also, I put a premium on an unblemished record. While not all wins are necessarily equal anything can happen in the ring. That is why I struggled with not having Williams-Diaz in the top 5-6. I just haven't seen them enough at this point.

Marquez has a loss in 06 (Chris John) that he has not avenged yet, that is why I don't have him higher. I believe that he and Vasquez are the only fighters with a loss in the last two years on my list, but Vasquez has already avenged his loss.

Now to my question for you and Swerb is why so little PFP love for the big boy. I recognize the questions about his chin, etc from the past, but one could make the argument that he outclasses his division more than Mayweather, Cotto, Pavlik or Calzaghe. IMO he is more dominant right now in his division than any other fighter on any of our lists. Floyd has competition from Cotto, Mosley,etc... Calzaghe has Hopkins, Taylor, Mundine, etc...same for Kelly. Who is legit competition for Klitschko? I understand that is not the end all/be all of PFP rankings, but it is why I have him higher than the other with a loss. It appears that you have him lower possibly for this same reason?
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Unread postby swerb » Thu Jan 03, 2008 10:45 am

IMO, Klitschko has a stronger hold on his division than anyone in the sport right now. And he has been impressive. Thing is though, I simply have failed to even be remotely impressed by anyone else in the division right now. Hopefully that changes with some of these up and coming kids that are lined up to get big step up fights in '08.

Klitschko probably deserves to be higher, but he's a victim of the trash hes fought IMO. No fault of his, he's generally took on the top contenders. They just all suck.

Fired up to see Povetkin and Eddie Chambers fight on Jan 26 on HBO. Winner gets Klitschko, and from what I've seen, stands to offer him his stiffest test yet.
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Unread postby bustedknuckles » Thu Jan 03, 2008 10:51 am

Swerb-I agree with you 100%, but in fairness isn't this the same theory that was used with Roy Jones Jr in his prime when he was smashing everyone? If I recall correctly he was always at, or near, the top of the PFP ranking, so nobody was holding that against him...why do we hold it against Vlad.
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Unread postby swerb » Thu Jan 03, 2008 10:59 am

Good point ... couple differences though.

Jones was much more dominant against equally shitty competition. No losses except the one where he hit Montell when he was on his knees. Klitschko is years removed from his losses, but they were BAD ones, to BAD boxers.

Also, I think the top 5-6 guys is more elite, harder to crack right now. Almost all unbeaten, unchallenged guys.
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Unread postby bustedknuckles » Thu Jan 03, 2008 12:56 pm

Again, I agree, but I'm cautious when making the "who has he fought/beat logic" as it can be tricky.

Until the Taylor fight that was the sentiment against Pavlik...he hasn't beat any quality opponents so he can't be that good...well was that really the case or is he just that good and makes others look inferior (see Roy Jones). My contention was always that Zuniga, McKart, Pierre, Zertuche and Miranda was an impressive string of wins against 5 solid fighters...that he made look bad.

I think the same thing can be said, although to a lesser extent, about Klitschko.
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Unread postby swerb » Thu Jan 03, 2008 1:28 pm

I think with Kelly it was a little different because of his age. Still young, fights had been getting progressively tougher. Miranda was a top tier contender when they fought. Favored in the fight. Significantly IIRC.

Jones ... he just dodged people. Sat at a weight class no one fights at. Wouldn't go down to middle, finally went up to heavy to face a couple stiffs (Ruiz, someone else).

Klitschko, neither of the above apply. Will unify a couple of the belts in a couple weeks vs Imbragimov. Will fight the Povetchkin/Chambers winner in the summer. Says and does all the right things. Wants big fights.

Bottom line, you're measured by how you fare against your best competition, and with Wlad ... we just don't know how good he truly is cause hes fought all meatballs (not his fault). We may very well find him atop this list in 18 months if he tears through Povetkin/Chambers, another top contender still emerging, and unifies all the belts in his next 3-4 fights.

I still question him between the ears a little. While hes night and day from the Corrie Sanders days thanks to Manny Steward, IMO we will find out a lot about Klitschko the next time hes seriously hurt in a fight, and how he resonds.
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Unread postby bustedknuckles » Thu Jan 03, 2008 2:33 pm

Swerb-no comparison will ever be 100% congruent, my comparisons follow my reasoning process (hopefully), that's all.

Manny has been great for Klitschko, which makes me wonder even more so what the heck happened with JT...clearly somebody's ore wasn't rowing deep enough into the water.

As long as he keeps the jab as active as it's been lately, I don't see him getting banged around or hurt...although if he reverts back to his preManny ways please disregard my last 4 posts.
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Unread postby swerb » Thu Jan 03, 2008 4:53 pm

From all I've seen from Manny as an analyst and a trainer ... if you got a problem with Manny, you're the one thats got the problem.

Taylor is a specimen. We saw in the first two rounds of the Pavlik fight what this kid is capable of.

There was a time I felt he would absolutely rule middleweight unbeaten for many years. I just don't think the cats got it between the ears.
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Unread postby Guest » Thu Jan 03, 2008 7:48 pm

I like Klitschko a lot also but it's just too hard to tell how good he is or can be.
If you have Marquez at 10 because of his loss recently then it would make sense to have Wlad lower because of how bad his losses were and who he lost to.

You will see how good he is in March and I can't wait.
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Unread postby bustedknuckles » Fri Jan 04, 2008 10:23 am

Dr-Klitschko's last loss was almost 4 years ago and he avenged that loss with an impressive KO of Brewster last year. I think the psychological baggage that you have to overcome to beat someone that has already knocked your spots off is tremendous...that's why I'm not holding that loss against him anymore...he atoned for it. I'm sure he'd do the same thing against Corrie Sanders or Ross Purity, but I don't him getting that opportunity anytime soon.

If/when Marquez avenges his loss to Chris John then we have a new ballgame.
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Unread postby Guest » Fri Jan 04, 2008 8:03 pm

Question then.
If Marquez beats Pac-man, he won't move up your list?
Call me crazy but he would have to no?
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Unread postby bustedknuckles » Mon Jan 07, 2008 4:37 pm

Dr-Yes, I follow you. Marquez probably takes Manny's spot on my list if he wins the rematch. A win against someone in the top 10 is a substantial boost.

On a related thought-where do you put Taylor if he wins the rematch against Kelly?

With all of the big fights scheduled in 2008 I fully anticipate revisiting and revising this list by mid-year...or maybe we should just do this every month for fun?

Also, I eagerly await the appearance of your UFC/MMA PFP list.
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Unread postby Guest » Mon Jan 07, 2008 8:01 pm

Here is the UFC list from a month and a half ago.

http://www.theclevelandfan.com/article_ ... blgId=2592

Not much of a change since then except Serra getting injured and Hughes getting beat down.

If Taylor wins?
It depends how he wins to be honest. I am a big Taylor fan and his style is out of whack. If he goes back to the old Jermain and wins a good fight he would move up, but not to where Kelly is currently.
Kelly has been dominating, that's why he's so high on my list.
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Unread postby bustedknuckles » Thu Jan 10, 2008 3:42 pm

Dr-did you see this list yet?

http://insider.espn.go.com/sports/boxin ... 3dtab7pos1

Hopkins at #4? and Paul Williams at #19...wow!
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Unread postby Guest » Thu Jan 10, 2008 8:17 pm

Any list that had Cotto at 7 and De La Hoya is garbage.
Winky Wright at 7?
Maybe the worst list I have ever seen.
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Unread postby swerb » Thu Jan 10, 2008 9:34 pm

Is that Paul Williams/Quintana fight on TV on Feb 9?
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Unread postby Guest » Fri Jan 11, 2008 7:23 am

That fight will be on HBO I think.
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