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Getting a head start on the Rule 5 Draft

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Unread postby MadThinker88 » Mon Nov 19, 2007 1:36 pm

Consigliere wrote:The Indians likely will not fill all 40 spots. They will probably leave 1-2 spots open for FAs or trades. Filling the entire 40-man means if you make ANY moves you then have to DFA someone.


So it would be just like last season when guys like Guthrie and Sikorski got moved off for the signings of Foulke and Nixon.


We should know very soon who and how many are added. The deadline is tomorrow (11/20) so I would imagine a number of items are getting finalized as this is being posted.
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Unread postby consigliere » Mon Nov 19, 2007 5:50 pm

Consigliere wrote:My protected: Adam Miller (RHP), Scott Lewis (LHP), Reid Santos (LHP), Tony Sipp (LHP), Wyatt Toregas (C)


Boy did I nail that 4 days ago.
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Unread postby MadThinker88 » Mon Nov 19, 2007 5:53 pm

I'm more surprised the roster is sitting at 39 myself. I hope that doesn't hurt us later.

As I listed on the other thread, I can see us losing Sean Smith, Luis Perdomo and 2 of Whitney, Gimenez and Barton. :-( :sad: :(
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Unread postby consigliere » Mon Nov 19, 2007 5:56 pm

They probably left the spot open in anticipation of signing a FA.

And, they won't lose as many guys as you think. They may lose a player or two, and the ones they lose most likely are returned. Mulhern and SMith could very well go, but I won't lose sleep over it.

I can't see anyone taking Whitney.
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Unread postby MadThinker88 » Mon Nov 19, 2007 11:34 pm

Tony/ Dennis/ Art/ etc,

With all of our focus on the Tribe's 40 man roster decisions, I wonder if anyone has some comments on other teams in the AL and AL Central.

Obviously if a team has all 40 man roster spots filled they cannot participate in the Rule 5, but I wonder if any other good minor league prospects were left unprotected.
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Unread postby Duane Kuiper » Mon Nov 19, 2007 11:41 pm

Max Ramirez was added to the Ranger's 40 man roster.
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Unread postby consigliere » Wed Nov 21, 2007 9:10 am

I threw some thoughts together on the choices on my blog...

http://indianstopprospects.blogspot.com ... ughts.html

Now that the Indians have decided on who they would add to the 40-man roster to protect from the Rule 5 Draft, I just wanted to break down quickly why they added who they did and what players they left unprotected who are now in danger of being selected.

The fact they protected Adam Miller, Reid Santos, Scott Lewis, Tony Sipp and Wyatt Toregas is not much of a surprise to me. I even nailed it with a prediction last week on our site message boards (my post is near the bottom dated Nov 15th at 1:05pm). Miller is a no brained, and while Sipp is currently recovering from Tommy John surgery they could not leave him unprotected because the acquiring team could essentially put him on the disabled list at will the next year or two while he recovers. Santos and Lewis are good left-handed pitching prospects with Lewis still considered a starter and Santos destined for a swing role or as a lefty in the bullpen. Some may say Toregas is a surprise, but not to me. He is an excellent defensive catcher with promise still as a hitter. The Indians need catching depth, as remember, when Victor got hurt in the “Snow Opener” last year, Mike Rose (??) was about to be summoned from Buffalo while Victor was heading to the disabled list.

The Rule 5 Draft is always tough to predict. Typically, versatile infielders that can play multiple positions, 4th outfielders, defensive catchers, lefty bullpen specialists, power arms, or guys with speed tend to get taken in the Rule 5 Draft. With that in mind, I posted the Indians Rule 5 eligibles awhile back, and here are the players I think could be selected:

Barton, Brian (OF): The Indians are very top heavy in the system in the outfield with the likes of Trevor Crowe, Brad Snyder, Ryan Goleski, Ben Francisco, and possibly even Jordan Brown battling Barton for time in the Buffalo outfield in 2008. Barton can run and play all three outfield positions, although his defense and plate discipline are still a work in progress. He looks like he could be selected, but the strikeouts to me may be a turnoff to teams. I think it is 50/50 he is not selected.

Constanza, Jose (OF): Constanza has yet to play a game at Double-A, but his speed and versatility could be attractive to a team looking for a Dave Roberts-like player off the bench. While he is not as far along in the system as Barton, his better bat control and plate discipline to go with plus speed may make him a more likely pick in the draft than Barton.

Gimenez, Chris (UT): This is the one player that I think we have the most chance of losing that will be a real loss. Gimenez can play any corner position in the infield and outfield, and can even play catcher. He has a potent bat with a lot of pop to go along with that versatility. Down the road, he could make an excellent super utility player, and he could get that shot next spring if he is selected.

Goleski, Ryan (OF): Goleski was the big loss last year after his outstanding 2006 campaign, but he struggled in spring with Oakland and ended up being returned. Goleski was never the same after that, and seemed to be ruined somewhat by being taken in the draft. He is eligible again, and while it does not look like he will be picked, if he is selected it may be best to part ways with the Indians.

Mulhern, Ryan (1B): It seems like Mulhern is a slam dunk to be selected. Some small market team with a void at first base likely will select Mulhern and make him their everyday first baseman in 2008 and live and die with him. Non-contending teams can do that. Mulhern is ready for a big league job, but with Ryan Garko, Travis Hafner and Victor Martinez manning first base in Cleveland, and Michael Aubrey and Jordan Brown crowding him out in Buffalo, Mulhern’s days in the Indians organization are all but numbered.

Newsom, Randy (RHP): Newsom is a great young man, and it would please me very much to see him get selected and fulfill his dream of making it to the majors. Newsom is a gimmick pitcher as he is a submarine pitcher, which is the type of pitcher you often see taken in the Rule 5 Draft. The Indians could use him down the road, but like Mulhern, Newsom may be the second most likely to be selected.

Perdomo, Luis (RHP): Perdomo has yet to pitch above Single-A, but his mid to upper 90s power fastball could entice someone to take him. Still, he is very green, so it would be a big surprise to see someone take him.

Smith, Sean (RHP): Smith is another likely draft selection, and would fill in adequately as a fifth starter for a non-contending team. Smith is probably at best a fifth starter or swing-4A guy, so even if the Indians lose him there should be no worries, especially considering the pitching depth in the organization.

Whitney, Matthew (1B): Whit had an unbelievable season last year, but he still has not played a single game t Double-A, still has plate discipline issues, is not a versatile player, and still needs to prove last year was not a fluke and that he can stay healthy. With all this said, Whitney should go undrafted. It would come as a complete surprise to me if he were selected.
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Unread postby MadThinker88 » Thu Nov 22, 2007 1:52 am

I found a listing (via Baseball America) of all the players that got added to the 40 man rosters right before the 11/20 deadline. I've also done a little digging into where each team stands with the 40 man roster.

I hope this helps all those that were wondering.

40 Arizona Diamondbacks
RHP Esmerling Vasquez
C Wilkin Castillo
OF Javier Brito

41 Atlanta Braves
RHP Jairo Cuevas
RHP Charlie Morton
RHP Zach Schreiber

36 Baltimore Orioles
RHP Fredy Deza
RHP Bob McCrory

37 Boston Red Sox
C Dusty Brown
1B Chris Carter
SS Argenis Diaz

38 Chicago Cubs
RHP Adam Harben

40 Chicago White Sox
RHP Jack Egbert
RHP Lucas Harrell
RHP Adam Russell
C Cole Armstrong

40 Cincinnati Reds
RHP Richie Gardner
RHP Ramon Ramirez
RHP Daryl Thompson
LHP Tyler Pelland
C Craig Tatum
SS Paul Janish

40 Cleveland Indians
RHP Adam Miller
LHP Scott Lewis
LHP Reid Santos
LHP Tony Sipp
C Wyatt Toregas

36 Colorado Rockies
RHP Esmil Rogers
RHP Pedro Strop

40 Detroit Tigers
None

37 Florida Marlins
RHP Scott Nestor
OF Jai Miller

34 Houston Astros
RHP Samuel Gervacio
RHP Brad James
RHP Chad Reineke

40 Kansas City Royals
RHP Julio Pimentel
LHP Tyler Lumsden
C Matt Tupman
3B Mario Lisson

39 Los Angeles Angels
RHP Nick Green
SS Sean Rodriguez

31 Los Angeles Dodgers
RHP Mario Alvarez
RHP James McDonald
RHP Justin Orenduff
RHP Ramon Troncoso
RHP Cory Wade
C Lucas May
OF Xavier Paul

40 Milwaukee Brewers
RHP Tim Dillard
RHP Luis Pena
C Lou Palmisano
1B Brad Nelson
SS Alcides Escobar

39 Minnesota Twins
RHP Bobby Korecky
2B Matt Tolbert
3B Matt Macri

35 New York Mets
None

39 New York Yankees
RHP Jeff Marquez
RHP Steven White
C Francisco Cervelli

38 Oakland Athletics
RHP Jeff Gray
RHP Henry Rodriguez
C Landon Powell
SS Gregorio Petit
OF Richie Robnett

38 Philadelphia Phillies
C Jason Jaramillo
2B Brad Harman

40 Pittsburgh Pirates
RHP Olivo Astacio
RHP Ronald Belisario
RHP Luis Munoz
SS Brian Bixler

39 St. Louis Cardinals
RHP Kyle McClellan
RHP Jason Motte
RHP Mike Parisi
RHP Mark Worrell
2B Jarrett Hoffpauir
OF Joe Mather

36 San Diego Padres
RHP Ernesto Frieri
RHP Wilton Lopez

40 San Francisco Giants
RHP Kelvin Pichardo
2B Travis Denker
OF John Bowker
OF Clay Timpner

39 Seattle Mariners
RHP Joe Woerman
2B Yung-Chi Chen

40 Tampa Bay Devil Rays
LHP James Houser
C John Jaso
OF Fernando Perez
OF Jason Pridie

40 Texas Rangers
RHP Thomas Diamond
LHP Matt Harrison
C Max Ramirez
OF Brandon Boggs

40 Toronto Blue Jays
LHP David Purcey

38 Washington Nationals
RHP Garrett Mock
LHP Justin Jones
1B Josh Whitesell
OF Rogearvin Bernadina
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Unread postby Mcreek » Thu Nov 22, 2007 9:57 am

Consigliere wrote:They probably left the spot open in anticipation of signing a FA.

And, they won't lose as many guys as you think. They may lose a player or two, and the ones they lose most likely are returned. Mulhern and SMith could very well go, but I won't lose sleep over it.

I can't see anyone taking Whitney.


Mulhern, Barton, Smith are either career AAAA players or fringe below average ML players that will struggle to stay on a 25 man roster.

Whitney could be taken mainly because of his pedigree (Former 1st round pick) and his big season last year. Some team may feel he has turned the corner.

If his plate discipline doesn't improve or his abilty to hit breaking balls then he will post Goleski's 2007 numbers.
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Unread postby drewd » Mon Nov 26, 2007 3:31 pm

Tribe's Mailbag by: Anthony Castrovince

The Indians protected five players (Adam Miller, Scott Lewis, Tony Sipp, Reid Santos and Wyatt Toregas) from the Rule 5 Draft. Which prospects may get selected by another team?

It's never easy to predict what other teams might be looking for in the Rule 5 Draft, Todd. Last year, I thought Jason Stanford, as a healthy left-handed arm with past Major League success, was a lock to get swiped (and, come to think of it, so did Stanford). Instead, the A's grabbed outfielder Ryan Goleski, the Phillies nabbed reliever Jim Ed Warden and Stanford went untouched. Shows how much I know.

The Rule 5 Draft can be a dangerous proposition for a player's development. When a player is selected in the Rule 5 Draft, he must either stick on the Opening Day roster with the big league club that selects him or be offered back to his original team. Neither Goleski nor Warden remained with their new teams last year, both were returned to the Tribe and neither had an especially inspiring season. Getting tantalizingly close to the Majors, then getting sent right back to Double-A with their original team couldn't have been easy on either player's psyche.

Anyway, looking at the list of Rule 5 eligibles from the Tribe for the Dec. 6 Draft, only a few names really jump out at me.

Goleski remains available. His performance declined at Akron, though he did still manage to drive in 73 runs. Still, I don't see him getting taken again.

Brian Barton might be more of a possibility. He had a .416 on-base percentage and swiped 20 bags at Akron before a late-season promotion to Triple-A Buffalo. He's 25 and, quietly, has been putting up very consistent numbers the last few years. And Ryan Mulhern is once again available, after batting .290 and leading Buffalo with 16 homers and 76 RBIs.

On the whole, though, looking at the list (especially in the pitching department), it seems to me the Indians protected the guys who are really worth protecting. And for those who asked, no, Jordan Brown, the Eastern League MVP this year, is not eligible for the Rule 5 Draft, and neither is Trevor Crowe.

Because I know people will inquire, here's the complete list of eligibles, in alphabetical order:

Barton, Cody Bunkelman, T.J. Burton, Mike Butia, Bubbie Buzachero, Armando Camacaro, Dan Cevette, Jose Constanza, Jason Cooper, Cirilo Cumberbatch, Chris De La Cruz, Brian Finegan, Chris Gimenez, Goleski, Yamid Haad, Jeff Harris, Justin Hoyman, Shaun Larkin, Mulhern, Randy Newsom, Chris Niesel, Shawn Nottingham, Nathan Panther, Luis Perdomo, Nick Pesco, Brandon Pinckney, Jorge Riera, Scott Roehl, Niuman Romero, Rich Rundles, Reid Santos, Sean Smith, Argenis Tavarez, Juan Valdes, Luis Valdez, David Wallace and Matt Whitney.


http://cleveland.indians.mlb.com/news/a ... p&c_id=cle
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Unread postby consigliere » Tue Nov 27, 2007 6:58 pm

Denny, excellent job on the Rule 5 piece today.

I really think Mulhern, Barton, Newsom and Smith are most at risk mostly because they could all step in right away and play. A team missing depth at a position could select one to fill a gap while they rebuild....sort of like how we picked up Blake in 2003. I know Blake was not a Rule 5 guy, but I could see a Mulhern or Barton filling in for a team like Blake did in 2003.
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Unread postby TribeNut » Tue Nov 27, 2007 11:06 pm

I see Barton getting taken, and I will find that to be disappointing.

Yes, I realize the odds of guys getting picked in the Rule V is low. But Brian has every 'tool' and could step onto a club and be a 4th OFer. Frankly, if a club wants to gamble on a guy with some speed, Brian would be worth that gamble.

For Mulhern's sake I hope he gets taken. He won't have a job with Jordan Brown coming up and it would do him good to move on.
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Unread postby Steve Buffum » Tue Nov 27, 2007 11:08 pm

TribeNut wrote:I see Barton getting taken, and I will find that to be disappointing.

I think in a league in which Nook Freaking Logan has a job, Brian Barton can stick on a roster.
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Unread postby dnosco » Tue Nov 27, 2007 11:54 pm

I think the most disconcerting thing I found in my research of the Rule 5 was how few catchers have actually been selected over the past 10 years. This makes the protecting of Toregas even more puzzling. On one hand you can say that with catching being as bad as it is in the majors and minors that guys like Toregas are at a premium. However, if that were true then you would have had more catchers selected, I think.

Look, Toregas came out of college as an offensive catcher. His offense has been so-so as a pro and I can't believe his defense is that good.

I will go on record right now and say that protecting Toregas was a huge mistake by the FO. I could easily be wrong but history tells me he was not at nearly the risk that Barton is of being selected.
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Unread postby consigliere » Wed Nov 28, 2007 12:52 am

dnosco wrote:I think the most disconcerting thing I found in my research of the Rule 5 was how few catchers have actually been selected over the past 10 years. This makes the protecting of Toregas even more puzzling. On one hand you can say that with catching being as bad as it is in the majors and minors that guys like Toregas are at a premium. However, if that were true then you would have had more catchers selected, I think.

Look, Toregas came out of college as an offensive catcher. His offense has been so-so as a pro and I can't believe his defense is that good.

I will go on record right now and say that protecting Toregas was a huge mistake by the FO. I could easily be wrong but history tells me he was not at nearly the risk that Barton is of being selected.


Of course, another way to look at it......is the reason so few catchers have been taken is teams realize the importance of catching and roster them to protect them. So, no one really gets taken. Eh?
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Unread postby christribeM » Wed Nov 28, 2007 4:21 am

If Cleveland hadnt protected Toreagas this year then we would have been giving away our only young catching depth in the upper system. You can debate his status as a legitimate prospect all day, but I think it was a pure depth and numbers game in his case.

If Barton doesnt go I'll be stunned. Surely Jim Bowden could do with another toolsy outfielder, no? I swear, if that man could play 9 outfielders, he would.

Great article Dennis. A must read for anyone unsure of the process or the impact of the Rule 5.
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Unread postby dnosco » Wed Nov 28, 2007 8:53 am

Guys,

What I failed to say in my post is that there have been a lot of catchers I have seen who were Rule 5 eligible over the years who didn't get picked. I can't name names right now as I would have to try to find my notes for those years but I have seen catchers who I thought were sure shots not get drafted.

Tony, you do have a point, though. I can't really prove that, over those years, teams didn't overprotect catchers. I'll have to look into that more.
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Unread postby MadThinker88 » Wed Nov 28, 2007 10:32 am

Kudos on the article Dennis. I shared it with a few people that didn't quite understand my passion for the minor league aspect of baseball or this type of draft.

They came away with a much better understanding of why after reading the article.
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Unread postby dazindiansfanuk » Wed Nov 28, 2007 5:56 pm

Brian Barton, of, Indians

Ever the enigma, Barton went undrafted in 2004 after clubs were scared off by his aerospace engineering major at Miami. The Indians signed him for $100,000 and an additional $100,000 in college funds after a brief showing in the Cape Cod League and Barton has not looked back. A five-tool player who can play all three outfield spots, Barton has been hampered by a lingering knee injury since his breakout year in 2006 when he hit .322 with 19 homers and swiped 41 bags in 49 attempts. Even with the knee problem, Barton still turned in a .305/.402/.420 season in 2007, finishing the year in Triple-A. Quiet and leading through example through his 2006 season, some scouts expressed concerns about Barton's demeanor. "I loved him that first year in Double-A," one scout from a National League club said. "But this past year, it was almost like he'd earned this elite status and you saw him have this lackadaisical approach to the game that wasn't there before. Where he was playing with chips on both shoulders with something to prove initially, that part of his game was replaced by some sort of false bravado. He's really tough to get a handle on, but the tools are very real."


Matt Whitney, 1b, Indians
Blasting 32 homers might be enough to get Whitney noticed


BA write-up on Rule 5 possibles. Only 2 Indians mentioned.

http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/pr ... 65252.html
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Unread postby dazindiansfanuk » Sun Dec 02, 2007 11:24 am

Rays Considering Brian Barton First In Rule 5?
The Rule 5 draft is coming up on Thursday, and the Rays have the first pick. They might be able to find something good - Josh Hamilton and Joakim Soria were selected last year. In '06 the Rays sold their first pick to the A's for $100K. Anyway, A reliable source has informed MLBTR that the Rays are eyeing 25 year-old outfielder Brian Barton from the Indians for the first pick. Barton was once fairly highly regarded, but the Tribe chose not to protect him this year.

Of course with the Rule 5 the selection has to stay on the Major League roster all year. Barton may be polished enough to do so without causing harm, as he's posted solid numbers in Double A. Barton is a center fielder by trade. Acquiring him makes sense for Tampa Bay given their subtraction of Delmon Young and Jason Pridie.

Barton may be near MLB-ready but some have questioned his ceiling. Said Baseball Prospectus' Kevin Goldstein: "He's always been old for his level and many scouts see him as a mistake hitter and minor league performer as opposed to a player with long-term major league value."


http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/
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Unread postby dnosco » Sun Dec 02, 2007 2:30 pm

As one writer said, this is probably the one and only time that the 40-man roster decisions rest squarely on the shoulders of the front office. No bad luck due to injuries but clearly only mistakes and correct decisions.

If Barton is lost due to a roster that includes Dellucci, Michaels, Toregas and other borderline, if that, major leaguers, especially when catchers aren't normally selected in the Rule 5, then this will be a large mistake.

Sure, you can make all the comments about how he isn't really lost because he has to stick with the team that selects him but the question you have to ask yourself is would Toregas have been selected if left exposed and would he have been able to stick. I think Barton's chances of sticking, based on his performance so far, are much better than Toregas.

IMHO Toregas is a career minor leaguer, much like our overdraft Javi Herrera.

But, as I said, this is squarely on the front office. If they screw this up they have lost an asset...or maybe more, depending on whether we lose anything else.

Small market teams just cannot afford to lose valuable assets that will be cheap for years to come.

Thus the additional problem with giving Dellucci a 3-year deal.

Right now I am not optimistic. When guys are talked about being drafted before the Rule 5 in the way that this link talks about him, they are usually drafted. As I said in my article, Barton is the highest ranked prospect eligible to be drafted in the Rule 5.
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Unread postby onlyindreams » Mon Dec 03, 2007 9:23 am

It was a mistake to protect Toregas over Barton. Let's just hope Barton doesn't stick in the majors this year. He probably has a good chance of contributing to a team in some way. I doubt Toregas would ever get selected.
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Unread postby MadThinker88 » Mon Dec 03, 2007 12:09 pm

Considering that some teams have interest in Barton, maybe Shapiro can swing a deal to trade Barton to one of them before Tampa selects him in the Rule 5.
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Unread postby pup » Mon Dec 03, 2007 12:10 pm

onlyindreams wrote:It was a mistake to protect Toregas over Barton. Let's just hope Barton doesn't stick in the majors this year. He probably has a good chance of contributing to a team in some way. I doubt Toregas would ever get selected.


Toregas was rostered because they are probably moving Shoppach.

Or Garko :eek: :o :-o
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Unread postby TribeNut » Mon Dec 03, 2007 1:31 pm

The best move for Barton at this point is probably moving on in the Rule V- unless it is to the Devil Rays, who still have their own cavalcade of marginal OFers and decent ones who are ahead of him.

His value is in CF, and he wouldn't be playing that in Tampa- that belongs to BJ.

The grumblings I kept reading about Barton bothered me during the year. THey bother me now. I don't want to see him go, but frankly I don't know if I would be torn at all if he does.

And someone made a good point about Toregas. If Shoppach goes, the Indians need a C high in the system who can step up or step in. I guess a good question is: do you see a club taking Brian Barton in trade for a viable b/u C? With the cost of a parttime, good C in Schneider+Ryan Church being Lastings Milledge? I don't.
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Unread postby consigliere » Mon Dec 03, 2007 1:33 pm

As usual, we usually fret over nothing once the Rule 5 has come and gone. I'm sure we will lose a couple players, but do not see us losing anything of major value. Barton is valuable, but he is also one outfielder in a logjam of outfielders in a system crowded with them in the upper levels.

Still, I'd hate to see him go. I'd like to see what he can do for a full year in Buffalo.
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Unread postby henshaw » Mon Dec 03, 2007 2:05 pm

dnosco wrote:As one writer said, this is probably the one and only time that the 40-man roster decisions rest squarely on the shoulders of the front office. No bad luck due to injuries but clearly only mistakes and correct decisions.

If Barton is lost due to a roster that includes Dellucci, Michaels, Toregas and other borderline, if that, major leaguers, especially when catchers aren't normally selected in the Rule 5, then this will be a large mistake.

Sure, you can make all the comments about how he isn't really lost because he has to stick with the team that selects him but the question you have to ask yourself is would Toregas have been selected if left exposed and would he have been able to stick. I think Barton's chances of sticking, based on his performance so far, are much better than Toregas.

IMHO Toregas is a career minor leaguer, much like our overdraft Javi Herrera.


dnosco wrote:As one writer said, this is probably the one and only time that the 40-man roster decisions rest squarely on the shoulders of the front office. No bad luck due to injuries but clearly only mistakes and correct decisions.

If Barton is lost due to a roster that includes Dellucci, Michaels, Toregas and other borderline, if that, major leaguers, especially when catchers aren't normally selected in the Rule 5, then this will be a large mistake.



In 2006 Rule 5, catcher Jesus Flores (age 22) was taken by the Nationals after he played in Class A ball. With the trade of Scheider, he is the starter (for now). he played in 79 games for the Nats. I thought the Tribe has stated time and again that for their Rule 5 players, they take into consideration the position and strengths of the organization. Toregas has been toutted as a ML ready defensive catcher. Isn't that more valuable than an "older" OF? Barton after all was "found" by the Tribe, not some other team. :?:
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Unread postby dnosco » Mon Dec 03, 2007 2:25 pm

First, I think Flores was the exception rather than the rule, based on the Rule 5 drafts of 1998-2005.

Second, no way is Toregas close to being ready for the majors so I don't think he wast rostered in case Shoppach was traded and, if he was, then he was rostered to replace Shoppach, something that doesn't seem to add up since he isn't close to being major league ready.

Third, do I remember incorrectly or was Toregas not signed out of college as an OFFENSIVE catcher albeit with a strong arm? I think Flores strength was and is his defense, at least according to Baseball America's 2007 prospect handbook that talks about his pop time, % thrown out, athletic ability to block balls in the dirt and his power potential as a hitter (although his career minor league average at A ball was .253).

Fourth, I do not believe that teams can add guys to their 40 man roster at this point UNLESS they are currently on another team's 40 man roster. That is against the spirit of the Rule 5 draft and I don't think it is legal.

Fifth, I see the Indians thinking Barton is the next coming of Jody Gerut and, therefore, why the wouldn't necessarily protect him. Just think it is wrong, but that is only MY opinion...until Dec. 6th, that is. :mrgreen:
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Unread postby henshaw » Tue Dec 04, 2007 12:04 pm

dnosco wrote:... I see the Indians thinking Barton is the next coming of Jody Gerut and, therefore, why the wouldn't necessarily protect him. Just think it is wrong, but that is only MY opinion...until Dec. 6th, that is. :mrgreen:


From the PD:

"Brian Barton, one of the players the Indians left exposed for the Rule 5 draft, underwent surgery on his left knee at the end of the year. Barton hit .314 (122-for-389) with nine homers and 59 RBI at Class AA Akron."

I had not seen this before - anyone know how extensive the surgery was? BB might well be the next Jody Gerut if his surgery was anything like the "minor" knee surgery Gerut had. This could also be another reason why Barton was left exposed. :?:
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Unread postby dazindiansfanuk » Tue Dec 04, 2007 12:07 pm

Barton's had the same knee problems for a couple of years now, i don't think this is the first time he's had surgery on them either.
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Unread postby MadThinker88 » Tue Dec 04, 2007 12:40 pm

This is the 1st time I heard of the surgery and after the fiasco last season with Goleski, I can only hope the Indians made sure they reported the surgery/ injury information.

Barton goes from a large 'why the hell was he left unprotected' to 'ok, a calculated risk' in my book.
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Unread postby cms2718 » Tue Dec 04, 2007 4:06 pm

i still think Barton will probably be taken in the draft which begs the question why are we protecting Aubrey, and Snyder? i don't see these guys ever producing/helping at the next level.
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Unread postby consigliere » Tue Dec 04, 2007 4:29 pm

cms2718 wrote:i still think Barton will probably be taken in the draft which begs the question why are we protecting Aubrey, and Snyder? i don't see these guys ever producing/helping at the next level.


Well, for starters, we would have to put Snyder and AUbrey on waivers if we remove them from the 40-man.

Also, Barton is by no means a better bet than these two to perform in the majors. Barton has a lot of the same strikeout woes that Snyder has, although Barton has consistently had a great OBP throughout the minors. THat said, Barton really struggled in his one month stay in Triple-A last year.

I just spoke to someone with ties to the organization, and he was suprised that Barton would be considered for a RUle 5 pick as he thinks he is not ready for the majors. Also, we have so much depth in the system in the outfield, there is bound to be someone of quality left unprotected.

Also, the knee injury was not serious, as heplayed through it most of last year, so he was just getting it fixed this offseason. Nagged him all year, and did not stop him from playing, and wanted to get it cleared up.
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Unread postby TribeNut » Tue Dec 04, 2007 4:36 pm

THe team would have to waive Snyder or Aubrey to clear a 40-man spot for Barton.

Any club that is interested in Barton would have to be taking the same look @ Snyder. Snyder has more power, rakes righties, can play CF, has speed, and can take a walk. Barton's edge, if he has one, is he can hit for better average. The club is also more optimistic about Aubrey @ this point. I know people don't like to hear it, but if the kid stays healthy he can hit- better than just about every other 1B in the system (including the guy in Cleveland).

Point is, they stand an equal chance of losing whomever they waive as they do of Barton getting selected. Barton has to actually stick with the drafting club. The waived player selected on waivers does not.
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Unread postby dnosco » Wed Dec 05, 2007 2:59 am

From BA:

http://www.baseballamerica.com/blog/prospects/?p=677

Barton not nearly a sure thing to be picked in the Rule 5. I still think if 5-10 teams pick a guy that we lose Barton in, at worst, the second round of the draft. You just can't let a guy like this get past you in this draft as he projects to fit nicely as a 4th outfielder that some club can stash on the end of their bench for minimum salary and see what they have after a season.

Still think it was a bonehead move not to protect him and to protect Toregas.

BTW, we all seem to forget that we could DFA Brian Slocum who probably has only one more option left and, so, may not be attractive if he is still not ready to pitch in ST.

Also, although I may be in the minority here, we need to put all the emotion aside. Unless there is some health or life insurance or pension issue involved, I can not for the life of me see why we can't DFA him and send him outright to Buffalo. If there is a financial reason for the family I can see holding tight but it is no slight to the player if his benefits and future benefits stay the same if he is on the Buffalo roster or the 40-man roster.

Can anyone help me out here why this isn't just a procedural move to clear a roster spot, although the Indians say they won't do it. Are they just not doing it for the principle of the thing and for appearances sake?
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Unread postby MadThinker88 » Wed Dec 05, 2007 8:10 am

Dennis, in the post above you suggest you might be in the minority and suggest that the Tribe DFA someone from the 40 man. Is that someone Slocum or are you referring to someone else??

Guess I got lost in the post.
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Unread postby consigliere » Wed Dec 05, 2007 8:52 am

dnosco wrote:Still think it was a bonehead move not to protect him and to protect Toregas.


Actually, it did not come down to Barton and Toregas.

THe Indians slot roster spots for positions. Their 40-man roster is "full" with outfielders. It actually came down to add Barton and removed Snyder, or leave Barton off and leave Snyder on.

Can anyone help me out here why this isn't just a procedural move to clear a roster spot, although the Indians say they won't do it. Are they just not doing it for the principle of the thing and for appearances sake?


It is the principle of the matter. Personally, I know it is a business, but I think it sends a very bad message if you go removing Lara from the 40-man right now while he is still hosptialized and in bad shape. I see no harm in keeping him on the 40-man roster for another few weeks until this story dies down, hopefully Lara is cleared to go home and we know how he is doing, and then we take him off.
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Unread postby TribeNut » Wed Dec 05, 2007 1:30 pm

Does being on the 40-man entitle Lara to union benefits? Does it increase his service time at all? Does it get him any pay bump during the offseason?

These are more important questions for someone coming off such an accident that are more vital than clearing a roster spot to draft the next Ryan Goleski.
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Unread postby dnosco » Wed Dec 05, 2007 1:43 pm

THe Indians slot roster spots for positions. Their 40-man roster is "full" with outfielders. It actually came down to add Barton and removed Snyder, or leave Barton off and leave Snyder on.

If this is how the Indians work it seems very shortsighted. I mean, so you roster a guy like Toregas instead of Barton just because, at the time, he was your best catching prospect who was Rule 5-eligible and because you have too many outfielders on your list.?!?! No way that makes any sense to me.

Tribenut, that, in a Buckeye shell, was my question. The ONLY reason he can stay on the roster, IMO, is if it is something like that. If he gets the same medical and pension benefits if he is on the 60-day DL or if he is on the Buffalo roster, I don't see the difference. As far as removing Lara from the roster later, there may not be a reason then. There is now.
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Unread postby consigliere » Wed Dec 05, 2007 1:47 pm

dnosco wrote:THe Indians slot roster spots for positions. Their 40-man roster is "full" with outfielders. It actually came down to add Barton and removed Snyder, or leave Barton off and leave Snyder on.

If this is how the Indians work it seems very shortsighted. I mean, so you roster a guy like Toregas instead of Barton just because, at the time, he was your best catching prospect who was Rule 5-eligible and because you have too many outfielders on your list.?!?! No way that makes any sense to me.


It is moreorless how they do it. Last year, when they were down to two roster spots I was told they had one spot open for a pitcher and it came down to Warden or Martin, and one spot for an outfielder (Francisco or Goleski). I believe I have the names right, but it was something to that effect with the names.
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Unread postby pup » Wed Dec 05, 2007 1:52 pm

How else can it be done? You have to have positional depth.
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Unread postby MadThinker88 » Wed Dec 05, 2007 1:52 pm

TribeNut wrote:Does being on the 40-man entitle Lara to union benefits? Does it increase his service time at all? Does it get him any pay bump during the offseason?

These are more important questions for someone coming off such an accident that are more vital than clearing a roster spot to draft the next Ryan Goleski.


Nut, I for one do not know those answers but I think there is 1 other question that should/needs to be answered: Can the Tribe, if it wanted to, reach a separate agreement with a player/ hsi agent (like Juan Lara) that could have the Tribe to the right thing in helping/ covering the player in their time of need and still remove a person from the 40 man roster?

Moves like that are done very often in football but I do not know if it is possible to make that type of move in the world of baseball. I have not advocated the outright kicking of Lara to the curp, but I have looked for a way to open Lara's spot with him still getting the medical care/ coverage he needs.

If a move/agreement like that isn't possible, I can agree with and support keeping Lara on the roster (from a human, PR, and business standpoint).

If a move/agreement like that CAN be done, then I do not understand why the Tribe has not pursued that avenue.
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Unread postby consigliere » Wed Dec 05, 2007 1:57 pm

Again, if/when the Indians need to sign a FA or make a trade where they need to clear roster space, they probably consider removing Lara at that time. Until then, it makes no difference if we remove him now or later, so the right thing to do here is leave him on.
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Unread postby TribeNut » Wed Dec 05, 2007 9:09 pm

MadThinker88 wrote:
TribeNut wrote:Does being on the 40-man entitle Lara to union benefits? Does it increase his service time at all? Does it get him any pay bump during the offseason?

These are more important questions for someone coming off such an accident that are more vital than clearing a roster spot to draft the next Ryan Goleski.


Nut, I for one do not know those answers but I think there is 1 other question that should/needs to be answered: Can the Tribe, if it wanted to, reach a separate agreement with a player/ hsi agent (like Juan Lara) that could have the Tribe to the right thing in helping/ covering the player in their time of need and still remove a person from the 40 man roster?

Moves like that are done very often in football but I do not know if it is possible to make that type of move in the world of baseball. I have not advocated the outright kicking of Lara to the curp, but I have looked for a way to open Lara's spot with him still getting the medical care/ coverage he needs.

If a move/agreement like that isn't possible, I can agree with and support keeping Lara on the roster (from a human, PR, and business standpoint).

If a move/agreement like that CAN be done, then I do not understand why the Tribe has not pursued that avenue.


That wouldn't need to be a deal between Lara and the Tribe, that would be Lara and the union. ANd yes, the NFL does that all the time- and they also let their HOFers fall into homelessness and mental illness caused by the game and don't give a crap until the guy dies. I wouldn't hold up the NFL as a bastion for ethical treatment of injured players.

Consigliere said it best- when it becomes an issue, make a move. Simply bumping him so the Indians can take a chance on the next Jared Camp seems pointless and ruthless.
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Unread postby MadThinker88 » Wed Dec 05, 2007 9:22 pm

Nut,
I was not looking to suggest the NFL was a model of ethical treatment. Its hard to even nudge in that direction when none of the contracts are guarenteed beyond the current season.

What I was trying to suggest is that there times when agreements between injured players and teams are reached so that a player can be taken care of due to their injury and the club could continue to operate as necessary. I've heard of that in football but not in baseball. Hence my question.

Fine, people do not want to remove Lara in order to take a flyer in the Rule 5 draft on Thursday. That's ok until you see we have no spots available in order to participate (even if we wanted to).

Shapiro is reported in the PD on Tuesday as wanting to use the Rule 5 draft to explore possibilities for utility infielder. Assuming Shapiro really did want to participate, who gets removed from the 40 man because unless someone is removed, the Tribe will NOT be particpating in the Rule 5 draft.
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Unread postby consigliere » Wed Dec 05, 2007 11:40 pm

MadThinker88 wrote:Assuming Shapiro really did want to participate, who gets removed from the 40 man because unless someone is removed, the Tribe will NOT be particpating in the Rule 5 draft.


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Unread postby dazindiansfanuk » Thu Dec 06, 2007 5:17 am

NASHVILLE–Word on the street in Music City in advance of Thursday’s Rule 5 draft came fast and furious late Wednesday night.

According to several sources, the Padres are planning on moving up to Tampa Bay’s No. 1 spot to take Indians outfielder Brian Barton.

Barton is a different breed of player–there is little question about that. After transferring from Loyola-Marymount to Miami to pursue baseball and an aerospace engineering degree, Barton climbed the ranks of Cleveland’s system, ranking as high as the No. 5 prospect in the system heading into the 2007 season.

Barton injured his right knee coming out of the batter’s box in 2006, and after playing through the injury, he required surgery this offseason. But Barton, who had the surgery in Miami while finishing up his degree, is perhaps even more eccentric than even we at Baseball America knew. The 25-year-old outfielder apparently traveled all season with a pet turtle (name unavailable).



http://www.baseballamerica.com/blog/prospects/?p=680
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Unread postby christribeM » Thu Dec 06, 2007 6:37 am

I love this line from the Barton report, typical Chris Kline...

:lol:

"The 25-year-old outfielder apparently traveled all season with a pet turtle (name unavailable)."

I cant believe Barton makes it past the first 2 picks. He gone.

That 2003 first round of the draft was a disaster. So many picks not even making it to their first cut....
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Unread postby slegend » Thu Dec 06, 2007 8:07 am

Brian Barton will be a MLB player in the next 1 to 2 years. He is a great athlete that has some very raw plate talent. He, like so many minor league players, simply needs to learn to sit back and take a normal cut at a breaking pitch...

The team that picks him up will pull a trade with Cleveland and we will get some useless piece of crap that will start at Lake County next season...

The Indians have some morons running the minor leagues after the previous people are now promoted and/or working on other teams....

We have become somewhat below average at the draft, well below average in developing talent, and just not a good sign for a team that must always have one of the top minor league systems to compete....

I like how people want to rip on our "aged" prospects because our staff likes to draft college kids. Calling guys like Ryan Garko "old for their level" might be the most retarded comment I have ever read about minor league prospects...
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Unread postby dnosco » Thu Dec 06, 2007 8:10 am

It is amazing to me how teams are lining up this year to draft players and making roster moves so they can be in a position to draft someone. I have never seen anything like this (i.e., teams releasing players on the verge of the Rule 5).

Let's hope this is not a blood bath for the Indians' minor league system.
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