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Chris Grant's first 3 drafts

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Chris Grant's first 3 drafts

Unread postby YahooFanChicago » Tue Jan 21, 2014 12:37 am

Year One:

Kyrie Irving - Grant didn't blow this one. He could of but didn't. Was no strong concensus #1 going into this draft. Many considered Irving the highest upside but there were some experts calling for Williams. It is very hard to crtiticize Grant for selecting Kyrie. Definitely the right call.

TT - At the time we all hated this pick and thought Grant was nuts and made a stupid, high-risk reach. It might still have been a high risk reach but at this point TT has performed better than the other players being considered with this selection:
TT- 2014 Avg Points/game = 12.2 rebounds/game = 9.8
Career Avg Point/game = 10.6 rebounds/game = 8.5

JV 2014 Avg Points/game = 10.2 rebounds/game = 8.5
Career Avg Point/game = 9.4 rebounds/game = 7.0

Kanter 2014 Avg Points/game = 11.4 rebounds/game = 6.1
Career Avg Points/game = 7.2 rebounds/game = 4.7
*Kanter was also selected before TT

T. Robinson - super crappy numbers, not worth the time posting them
* Robinson was drafted in the next year's draft but I include him
as a comp since many of us felt that if we wouldn't have taken TT
we may have taken Robinson in the next draft.

I think in hindsight, at this stage Grant made a good call on TT. Particularly if he keeps developing and improving.

Year 2:

Waiters - another pick we all hated and thought strongly that Grant screwed-up. Even though Waiters has been very inconsistent he is performing better than the other players that were available at that pick. He is even doing better than the player I wanted us to draft who was picked before us (MKG)


Waiters 2014 14.8 points/game 5.6 (assists + steals)/game
Career 14.7 points/game 5.5 (assists + steals)/game



MKG 8.9 points/game 7.1 (assiss + steals/game




H. Barnes 2014 10.7 points/game 5.5 (assists + steals/game
Career 9.7 points/game 5.3 (assists + steals) game





In hindsight, even the Waiters pick looks like it might have been the right one.


YEAR 3

It's still very early days but obviously this Bennett pick looks like a blown pick. That said, the other high picks are looking quite bad also. Very weak draft.
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Re: Chris Grant's first 3 drafts

Unread postby YahooFanChicago » Tue Jan 21, 2014 12:50 am

Based on the above I think you could make a strong case that Grant did a pretty good job of selecting the best player available in 3 out of those 4 selections. You could say that the drafts were pretty weak and I would agree.

You could also argue that Grant did a bad job of selecting complimentary talent. I wouldn't agree with that since I think that you should draft the best talent available and then either find a way to fit them together or make subsequent trades/moves to optimize the roster.

So far Grant has not done a good job of optimizing the roster but hopefully Deng is the first move to address that.
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Re: Chris Grant's first 3 drafts

Unread postby Kingpin74 » Tue Jan 21, 2014 11:13 am

If you look at Waiters in a vacuum, he's fine. But he was a terrible match with Kyrie and Barnes would have been a perfect one. Numbers don't tell the whole story there (although at least we fixed the 3 spot now with Deng).
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Re: Chris Grant's first 3 drafts

Unread postby bookelly » Sun Jan 26, 2014 9:28 pm

You have to consider he re-hired Mike Brown which is arguably a worse move than Bennett.
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Re: Chris Grant's first 3 drafts

Unread postby Spin » Sun Jan 26, 2014 11:05 pm

The Deng move is only a good one if he resigns. Or he's a rental and we make the playoffs.

Getting rid of Bynum makes it impossible for this to be a bad deal. But to make it a good deal one of the two things above have to happen.

IMHO YMMV
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Re: Chris Grant's first 3 drafts

Unread postby Kingpin74 » Mon Jan 27, 2014 11:18 am

If they're still playing like garbage in 3 weeks though, do any of you think they'd move Deng before the deadline, recoup the draft pick, and re-tank? I highly doubt it given all their bravado since last year's lottery, but it may be the smart play. I assumed once they made the Deng trade they'd be in the mix for the 6 seed or higher and hence some actual playoff success that these guys can build on. But I don't want to sacrifice a plum spot in the best draft in 10 years just for a moderate chance at the right to get slaughtered by Miami or Indiana in Round 1. Only 3 games separate the #3 and #10 teams in the lottery right now, that's the difference between a star and a rotation guy.
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Re: Chris Grant's first 3 drafts

Unread postby googleeph2 » Mon Jan 27, 2014 1:39 pm

Last night wasn't a complete surprise to any of us. Assuming we agree the collapse happened due to a lack of poise, stemming from a lack of winning culture, stemming from a lack of savvy veterans. At some point, then, the yearly stream of rookies has to stop. Earlier the better, I'd guess, with respect to the ticket base, not to mention Irving's eventual ability to bolt.
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Re: Chris Grant's first 3 drafts

Unread postby peeker643 » Mon Jan 27, 2014 2:37 pm

If I'm understanding the line of thinking correctly, that makes Mike Brown a GD genius for last night's first half where he coached his team to 61 points and held one of the highest scoring teams in the league to 43?

Right?

Man. This team has an overrated PG, a good 'three' who's been here two weeks and then three other guys who might, MIGHT, be in a really good team's top 7 rotation (two of whom are pretty much redundant to the other).

Phil Jackson couldn't win with this roster. I'm not a Mike Brown guy. I don't care what happens to him. But people believing anyone can win with this collection of crap are crazy.
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Re: Chris Grant's first 3 drafts

Unread postby googleeph2 » Mon Jan 27, 2014 2:43 pm

peeker643 wrote: But people believing anyone can win with this collection of crap are crazy.


So: tank?
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Re: Chris Grant's first 3 drafts

Unread postby jerryroche » Mon Jan 27, 2014 2:58 pm

peeker643 wrote:Phil Jackson couldn't win with this roster. I'm not a Mike Brown guy. I don't care what happens to him. But people believing anyone can win with this collection of crap are crazy.


Got to respectfully disagree, Peek. Any decent franchise with two No.1s (overall), two No.4s (overall), Luol Deng and Andy Varejao should be able to win more than 50% of its games. Problem is not entirely with Mike Brown, though some of it is his fault. You've got one No.1 (Bennett) and one No.4 (Waiters) who can't even crack the starting lineup for one of the shittiest teams in the league. That part of the problem is Chris Grant, who has assembled a roster that has too many similar parts and not enough chemistry.

Biggest difference last night was lack of movement in the second half. The broadcasters would say "lack of energy," but it's basically the same thing. That shouldn't happen. We've seen that Kyrie can hit the open man for 10 dimes a game, IF there are open men! But too often, it's Kyrie doing the LBJ thing, dribbling around, looking for a seam in the defense or hoping someone will come open--and the four others on the floor just get apathetic.

Those guys are so youthful that expending 30 to 36 minutes of NBA-level energy every two nights should NOT be a problem, ever. That's on Brown.
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Re: Chris Grant's first 3 drafts

Unread postby peeker643 » Mon Jan 27, 2014 3:39 pm

jerryroche wrote:
peeker643 wrote:Phil Jackson couldn't win with this roster. I'm not a Mike Brown guy. I don't care what happens to him. But people believing anyone can win with this collection of crap are crazy.


Got to respectfully disagree, Peek. Any decent franchise with two No.1s (overall), two No.4s (overall), Luol Deng and Andy Varejao should be able to win more than 50% of its games. Problem is not entirely with Mike Brown, though some of it is his fault. You've got one No.1 (Bennett) and one No.4 (Waiters) who can't even crack the starting lineup for one of the shittiest teams in the league. That part of the problem is Chris Grant, who has assembled a roster that has too many similar parts and not enough chemistry.

Biggest difference last night was lack of movement in the second half. The broadcasters would say "lack of energy," but it's basically the same thing. That shouldn't happen. We've seen that Kyrie can hit the open man for 10 dimes a game, IF there are open men! But too often, it's Kyrie doing the LBJ thing, dribbling around, looking for a seam in the defense or hoping someone will come open--and the four others on the floor just get apathetic.

Those guys are so youthful that expending 30 to 36 minutes of NBA-level energy every two nights should NOT be a problem, ever. That's on Brown.


Kyrie is what he's going to be short of growing up and being in an environment where he's not expected to do the LBJ iso-crap. He was asked to do that his first two years and had to under Scott, etc. And that was straight outta Duke and with a dozen or so college games under his belt. He knows nothing else. That's not on Brown and it takes more than 50 games of Brown, 10 games of Deng and the frenetic but unrefined energy of Thompson and Varejao. Waiters is a vacuum. Ball goes to him it ain't coming back out. Bennett is a mess right now and virtually useless.

Thompson and Varejao are active. They move. They're just not skilled. Deng is skilled and moves but not comfortable enough yet to know where and when and whether it matters. Waiters is a bad fit and Bennett ain't there at all yet. So four #1's is, relatively speaking, meaningless.

So, like I said, Brown may be a part of the issue, he may not. Doesn't matter to me. The biggest issue is the 'superstar' who ain't and the cast around him that is limited, inefficient and ineffective.

Just my opinion. I just think the roster is toxic, selfish and not talented enough for any coach to wring results out of.
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Re: Chris Grant's first 3 drafts

Unread postby pup » Mon Jan 27, 2014 4:34 pm

2013-2014 Cleveland Cavaliers - "The whole is less than the sum of its parts"
Home Run Leaders as RHB 5/7/13

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Re: Chris Grant's first 3 drafts

Unread postby peeker643 » Mon Jan 27, 2014 5:18 pm

pup wrote:2013-2014 Cleveland Cavaliers - "The whole is less than the sum of its parts"


I'd say it's equal to the sum of its parts.

Shitty parts.
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Re: Chris Grant's first 3 drafts

Unread postby pup » Mon Jan 27, 2014 6:04 pm

peeker643 wrote:
pup wrote:2013-2014 Cleveland Cavaliers - "The whole is less than the sum of its parts"


I'd say it's equal to the sum of its parts.

Shitty parts.


I think the parts are better than shitty, but can't play in a way that creates winning. Dion Waiters can play. TT can play. Andy can play. Kyrie can play. Deng can play. Miles can play. "Talent" wise, this group has more than any group that was in Cleveland when LBJ was here, minus having him. Problem is, creating a good team requires more than talent.
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Re: Chris Grant's first 3 drafts

Unread postby bookelly » Mon Jan 27, 2014 8:00 pm

It's pretty simple to me; when they move the ball on offense they score at will and are able to get back on D, when they do the Kyrie "Leslo" they wind up chucking up a poor off balance shot and give up easy buckets in transition. The bigs need to get physical in the post and run the 2-man game on either side with Miles waiting for a kick-out.

That is 110% Coach Browns fault.
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Re: Chris Grant's first 3 drafts

Unread postby peeker643 » Tue Jan 28, 2014 12:48 pm

pup wrote:
peeker643 wrote:
pup wrote:2013-2014 Cleveland Cavaliers - "The whole is less than the sum of its parts"


I'd say it's equal to the sum of its parts.

Shitty parts.


I think the parts are better than shitty, but can't play in a way that creates winning. Dion Waiters can play. TT can play. Andy can play. Kyrie can play. Deng can play. Miles can play. "Talent" wise, this group has more than any group that was in Cleveland when LBJ was here, minus having him. Problem is, creating a good team requires more than talent.


I don't think they have a single "special" player in a league that requires them. Kyrie is special offensively but gives nothing on defense. TT and Waiters are dime-a-dozen in the NBA. Andy is an excellent energy guy who may still be the most valuable guy on the team for the second chances he creates on a team that often fucks up their first chances. Miles is 'meh'. Like a lot of shooters he can get white-hot. But he can also go a week or more and give you next to nothing. Even if he creates space it's not put to use often enough.

I guess if people want to blame Brown for, as yet, not being able to communicate to Kyrie and Waiters, et al, the importance of playing both ends and involving everyone on the floor I'd be okay with that. And his inbound plays are amusing. But he's trying to turn crap into filet mignon in many ways, IMO.
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Re: Chris Grant's first 3 drafts

Unread postby pup » Tue Jan 28, 2014 1:52 pm

We can certainly agree on the lack of "special".
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Re: Chris Grant's first 3 drafts

Unread postby YahooFanChicago » Tue Jan 28, 2014 11:18 pm

I am utterly disapointed in this team and as a long-term Cleveland fan I should have known better. I was never a fan of bringing Brown back but I thought the D would certainly improve with him.

I really thought it would take 2-3 months for the team to start grasping the new system on D and I also thought with another year of experience that players like Kyrie, Dion and TT would continue to devlop and that right now we would be playing pretty well.

Then we traded for Deng who I watched a lot in Chicago and thought we would be into some good stuff right now.

We saw signs on the west coast trip and that last win on the road was sweet. The rebounding was amazing and the offense looked to be in synch.

Fast foward to the past 3 games and I am completely disgusted and don't know how in the world they fix this.
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Re: Chris Grant's first 3 drafts

Unread postby Doc » Wed Jan 29, 2014 5:43 pm

Image

I have a bad feeling this won't post correctly, but an epic picture nonetheless.

Edit, it works!
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Re: Chris Grant's first 3 drafts

Unread postby Doc » Wed Jan 29, 2014 6:13 pm

What's the fix? I dislike Brown as a coach, but I don't think he is terrible and I doubt he's going anywhere anytime soon. You have a 4 (quality) guard rotation, except 3 of them are similar, and dominate the ball too much. They obviously need another big if they are going to compete this year. On one hand, I want Bennett to get minutes, on the other, they need something vaguely reliable, because Tyler Zeller is your third big. I think if we could swap Jack for a big of a similar contract. Just browsing, Jack for Ilyasova or Landry/Jason Thompson in SAC might be the closest we can find. If not, someone needs to get these guys to stop hogging the ball. That's my magic fix.
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Re: Chris Grant's first 3 drafts

Unread postby bookelly » Fri Jan 31, 2014 3:34 am

Starts with the coach. He's got to get them to pass the fucking rock. Period.
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Re: Chris Grant's first 3 drafts

Unread postby rebelwithoutaclue » Fri Jan 31, 2014 3:00 pm

Doc wrote:What's the fix?



Invent a time machine and go back and actually interview outside candidates after Ferry was fired instead of just hiring in-house loser Chris Grant.



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Re: Chris Grant's first 3 drafts

Unread postby jerryroche » Fri Jan 31, 2014 9:20 pm

jerryroche wrote:This roster needs blowing up. Nuclear blowing up, judging by how the players have not been very competitive and their interior defense has been atrocious. Either talent is lacking, or desire is lacking, or perhaps even both.
To get back on track (and to quiet all the venom coming from their fan base), the Cavaliers need a new starting two-guard and two new starting forwards, all three of whom can consistently score and play at least a little defense. A decent center to back up Anderson Varejao wouldn’t hurt, either. And some bench strength.
Only two players on the current roster might be solid starters on a contending ballclub, and you know their names: Varejao and rookie Kyrie Irving. Both are virtually “untouchable,” even though Varejao could be too old to make any heavy contributions by the time the rest of the squad is playoff-ready.

This quote from a post I made on the home page on April 5, 2012 is not meant to look like me blowing my own horn. It's meant to point out how so little has changed in 21 months, despite some high draft picks, free-agent signings and the addition of Luol Deng.

They've got their "new starting two-guard" (Waiters), "two new starting forwards" (Deng and TT) and a young back-up to Varejao at center (Zeller). They've even got a new set of coaches. But the sorry truth is that, so far, the result remains the same.

There is something radically wrong with this franchise, but I haven't heard anyone put a definitive finger on it yet.
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Re: Chris Grant's first 3 drafts

Unread postby leadpipe » Sat Feb 01, 2014 8:22 am

jerryroche wrote:
jerryroche wrote:This roster needs blowing up. Nuclear blowing up, judging by how the players have not been very competitive and their interior defense has been atrocious. Either talent is lacking, or desire is lacking, or perhaps even both.
To get back on track (and to quiet all the venom coming from their fan base), the Cavaliers need a new starting two-guard and two new starting forwards, all three of whom can consistently score and play at least a little defense. A decent center to back up Anderson Varejao wouldn’t hurt, either. And some bench strength.
Only two players on the current roster might be solid starters on a contending ballclub, and you know their names: Varejao and rookie Kyrie Irving. Both are virtually “untouchable,” even though Varejao could be too old to make any heavy contributions by the time the rest of the squad is playoff-ready.

This quote from a post I made on the home page on April 5, 2012 is not meant to look like me blowing my own horn. It's meant to point out how so little has changed in 21 months, despite some high draft picks, free-agent signings and the addition of Luol Deng.

They've got their "new starting two-guard" (Waiters), "two new starting forwards" (Deng and TT) and a young back-up to Varejao at center (Zeller). They've even got a new set of coaches. But the sorry truth is that, so far, the result remains the same.

There is something radically wrong with this franchise, but I haven't heard anyone put a definitive finger on it yet.


Put a finger on it?

The only reason one might not be able to do that is a finger ain't enough.

They've been basically a 40 year old joke. Filled with horrible ownership, horrible coaching and horrible players. They can't draft, and nobody the hell wants to be ion Cleveland.

That's how you pretty much stink wire to wire.

Good holy Christ, for all of you gufawwing at Mike Brown's offense and inbounds plays, did you forget about John Lucas?
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