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Glavine, Maddux and Thomas Cooperstown

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Glavine, Maddux and Thomas Cooperstown

Unread postby British_Pharaoh » Wed Jan 08, 2014 3:13 pm

Tom Glavine, Greg Maddux and the Big hurt are going to be immortalised in baseball's Pantheon this year

I think we all agree they were no-brainers

Any glaring omissions for people?
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Re: Glavine, Maddux and Thomas Cooperstown

Unread postby motherscratcher » Wed Jan 08, 2014 3:26 pm

Biggio missed it by two votes. This with assholes sending in blank cards out of protest or voting for nobody except Jack Morris. Ridiculous.

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Re: Glavine, Maddux and Thomas Cooperstown

Unread postby peeker643 » Wed Jan 08, 2014 3:33 pm

Those were three I would have taken. The process blows, but I have no issue with the results this year. Again, that's not an endorsement of the way they got in. It's a joke.
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Re: Glavine, Maddux and Thomas Cooperstown

Unread postby skatingtripods » Wed Jan 08, 2014 3:48 pm

Biggio should be there. Bonds and Clemens probably should be too, in spite of what they did.

As I said on Twitter, the Deadspin ballot may have been the best one of them all. Their ballot was: Maddux, Thomas, Glavine, Piazza, Biggio, E. Martinez, Bagwell, Clemens, Bonds, Schilling. Raines missed the cut by just 1.5%.

The entire voting process is an embarrassment and kudos to Dan Le Batard for what he did giving a vote to the masses.
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Re: Glavine, Maddux and Thomas Cooperstown

Unread postby Erie Warrior » Wed Jan 08, 2014 7:05 pm

skatingtripods wrote:Biggio should be there.


On a bullet train. It's more embarrassing that's he was left out than if Bonds/Clemens/ McGwire got in.

A fucking guy who played 3 completely different defensive positions at a high level over 20 years , and collected 3K hits. He's got Gold Gloves, Silver Sluggers, and All Star appearances.

BBWA is a fucking joke.
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Re: Glavine, Maddux and Thomas Cooperstown

Unread postby leadpipe » Wed Jan 08, 2014 8:32 pm

You could set your watch to the goings on these couple days every year.

You've got your "love me Daddy" writer who has to come out with some sort of prepostorous statement for the sole purpose of making a few people know he's alive. You've got a gaggle of humps that pull the old "Not first ballot worthy" bullshit. Than ya got another group of mini Bob Costas' preaching about the sacredness of the game.

Christ, I'm a baseball fan. Love the game, but really, we're talking about a building made for guys that are really good hitting a ball with a stick. Not sure anyone on GGE should be some sort of offended by anyone allowed thru the door.
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Re: Glavine, Maddux and Thomas Cooperstown

Unread postby motherscratcher » Wed Jan 08, 2014 8:52 pm

leadpipe wrote:You could set your watch to the goings on these couple days every year.

You've got your "love me Daddy" writer who has to come out with some sort of prepostorous statement for the sole purpose of making a few people know he's alive. You've got a gaggle of humps that pull the old "Not first ballot worthy" bullshit. Than ya got another group of mini Bob Costas' preaching about the sacredness of the game.

Christ, I'm a baseball fan. Love the game, but really, we're talking about a building made for guys that are really good hitting a ball with a stick. Not sure anyone on GGE should be some sort of offended by anyone allowed thru the door.


I'd like to take this post out to dinner and a movie then make sweet sweet love to it between the dumpsters behind the 7/11. I like it that much.
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Re: Glavine, Maddux and Thomas Cooperstown

Unread postby Adverb Harry » Wed Jan 08, 2014 9:22 pm

motherscratcher wrote:
leadpipe wrote:You could set your watch to the goings on these couple days every year.

You've got your "love me Daddy" writer who has to come out with some sort of prepostorous statement for the sole purpose of making a few people know he's alive. You've got a gaggle of humps that pull the old "Not first ballot worthy" bullshit. Than ya got another group of mini Bob Costas' preaching about the sacredness of the game.

Christ, I'm a baseball fan. Love the game, but really, we're talking about a building made for guys that are really good hitting a ball with a stick. Not sure anyone on GGE should be some sort of offended by anyone allowed thru the door.


I'd like to take this post out to dinner and a movie then make sweet sweet love to it between the dumpsters behind the 7/11. I like it that much.


Would you call it afterwards, or just leave it at that? I'm curious.
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Re: Glavine, Maddux and Thomas Cooperstown

Unread postby motherscratcher » Thu Jan 09, 2014 10:42 am

Adverb Harry wrote:
motherscratcher wrote:
leadpipe wrote:You could set your watch to the goings on these couple days every year.

You've got your "love me Daddy" writer who has to come out with some sort of prepostorous statement for the sole purpose of making a few people know he's alive. You've got a gaggle of humps that pull the old "Not first ballot worthy" bullshit. Than ya got another group of mini Bob Costas' preaching about the sacredness of the game.

Christ, I'm a baseball fan. Love the game, but really, we're talking about a building made for guys that are really good hitting a ball with a stick. Not sure anyone on GGE should be some sort of offended by anyone allowed thru the door.


I'd like to take this post out to dinner and a movie then make sweet sweet love to it between the dumpsters behind the 7/11. I like it that much.


Would you call it afterwards, or just leave it at that? I'm curious.


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Re: Glavine, Maddux and Thomas Cooperstown

Unread postby peeker643 » Thu Jan 09, 2014 10:57 am

So LeBatard is getting crucified by the baseball elitists and ivory tower tools for GIVING his ballot to Deadspin for their readers to vote.

Any thoughts?

I clearly have no issue with it. I trust the deadspin folks better than any fucking idiot that votes for Jacques Jones.
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Re: Glavine, Maddux and Thomas Cooperstown

Unread postby Larvell Blanks » Thu Jan 09, 2014 11:09 am

it's all BS. There's the one writer who left Maddux off b/c he refuses to vote anyomne in from the "steroid era".

As Lead said, this is their one time a year to be noticed by making a statement. No way Maddux should not have received 99.9% of the vote.
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Re: Glavine, Maddux and Thomas Cooperstown

Unread postby motherscratcher » Thu Jan 09, 2014 11:09 am

I thought LeBatard's explanation was pretty fair and well reasoned and I agree with every thing he said. I also wasn't surprised it was him. He was the most likely candidate that I could think of, although I figured it was far more likely to be someone I've never heard of.

It's also clear that the ballot that was turned in is a very justifiable ballot. Al of the players selected have strong HOF arguments, so it's not like ths turned into some kind of farce.

I hope this is the beginning of some changes, but I'm not holding my breath.

Did you see the sanctimonious bullshit that Korny and Wilbon hurled at the TV cameras for a few minutes? They sounded like morons.
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Re: Glavine, Maddux and Thomas Cooperstown

Unread postby Larvell Blanks » Thu Jan 09, 2014 11:14 am

http://msn.foxsports.com/buzzer/story/the-most-disgusting-thing-about-this-year-s-baseball-hall-of-fame-vote-010814

One of the guys who left Maddux off his ballot explained his decision earlier this week. We're talking about MLB.com's Ken Gurnick.

"To me, I didn't exclude Maddux. I excluded everybody from that era, everybody from the Steroid Era," Gurnick told The Associated Press. "It wasn't about Greg Maddux, it was about the entire era. I just don't know who did and who didn't."

Well, that makes a lot of sense, right? No? When you think about the Steroid Era do you even think about Greg Maddux?

Exactly.



yep nothing says performance enhancement like Maddux and his 89 pmh fastball
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Re: Glavine, Maddux and Thomas Cooperstown

Unread postby motherscratcher » Thu Jan 09, 2014 11:23 am

Larvell Blanks wrote:http://msn.foxsports.com/buzzer/story/the-most-disgusting-thing-about-this-year-s-baseball-hall-of-fame-vote-010814

One of the guys who left Maddux off his ballot explained his decision earlier this week. We're talking about MLB.com's Ken Gurnick.

"To me, I didn't exclude Maddux. I excluded everybody from that era, everybody from the Steroid Era," Gurnick told The Associated Press. "It wasn't about Greg Maddux, it was about the entire era. I just don't know who did and who didn't."

Well, that makes a lot of sense, right? No? When you think about the Steroid Era do you even think about Greg Maddux?

Exactly.



yep nothing says performance enhancement like Maddux and his 89 pmh fastball



Just because he wasn't running it up there at 100mph doesn't mean he wasn't juicing. There are other signs. I mean, just look at the guy's physique. A true Adonis.

Very suspicious
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Re: Glavine, Maddux and Thomas Cooperstown

Unread postby skatingtripods » Thu Jan 09, 2014 11:28 am

peeker643 wrote:So LeBatard is getting crucified by the baseball elitists and ivory tower tools for GIVING his ballot to Deadspin for their readers to vote.

Any thoughts?

I clearly have no issue with it. I trust the deadspin folks better than any fucking idiot that votes for Jacques Jones.


I loved it. The voting process is a sham and the BBWAA needs to change the restrictions. Some of the guys that have votes don't deserve to have them.

Le Batard gave his rationale in the Deadspin and, IMO, it was pretty sound. He had motives for doing it, namely, to promote himself, but he's also being excoriated by media brethren and his image with those guys may be irreparably damaged. So he did take some risk here.

Deadspin has a perception as being a predominantly satirical site, but they really do some great work over there. They have their dick pics and other TMZ-esque stuff, but they've done some great investigative reporting in the past as well. I think their reader base is more educated than media blowhards like Jon Heyman give it credit for.

As I said, I think Deadspin made have had one of the best ballots I've seen. From the comments on baseball articles and some of their other posts, it's a pretty educated group of baseball fans.

I'll say this for the BBHOF, over the last several decades, they don't just let anybody in. There are a lot of good, but not great, players in the NHL, NBA, and NFL HOFs. Baseball's is definitely the toughest to be enshrined in, and I'm fine with that for the most part.

I'm not really a big fan of the traditional statistics, but when you're talking about a guy like Craig Biggio, you're talking about a long career of consistency. All the rage in sabermetrics lately is trying to put values on a player's aging curve and production. To put up counting statistics like Biggio's, or even Barry Bonds, that's really impressive and deserves recognition.

Another inherent problem with the voting process is that some guys are dicks and no matter their numbers, some of the sand-filled vaginas with votes will never vote for them. Barry Bonds is an asshole. Has been an asshole. Always will be an asshole. But he was an asshole with elite plate discipline and tremendous power. He was also a very good OF once upon a time. In 2001 when he broke McGwire's tainted record, 37.6% of Bonds's plate appearances ended with a walk or a home run. That's ridiculous. (44.8% in 2004 when he drew 232 BB, though 120 were intentional) But, according to my Sports PR instructor in college, Bonds was an abrasive dick whose locker was not only barricaded off from reporters, but also from his teammates.

Keith Law said it best when he said that voters need to establish some kind of standards for evaluating the steroid-era players. Pitchers that those hitters were facing were on the juice too, but they're not placed under a microscope because hitting and run scoring is more exciting.

There are guys in the Hall who threw spitballs or took Greenies or put various other foreign substances on the ball. PEDs were mostly legal during the height of their use in MLB. I applaud guys who stayed straight and didn't use them to gain an edge, but I try not to hold it against the users for doing something baseball turned a blind eye to for years, as mentioned in this great article I read today from Grantland: http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/102 ... teroid-era

I'll be interested to see what happens as the saber generation gets more steam and starts to have a say in the voting process. Somebody like Jonah Keri, for example, who just became part of the BBWAA this past season. It'll be especially interesting to see how hitters are graded as pitchers have really been the name of the game for the last several seasons.
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Re: Glavine, Maddux and Thomas Cooperstown

Unread postby Pressrunnr » Thu Jan 09, 2014 11:40 am

All I wonder is, when Glavine gives his induction speech, will he stand a foot outside the podium while Bob Costas coos over how deftly he's painting the corners?
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Re: Glavine, Maddux and Thomas Cooperstown

Unread postby peeker643 » Thu Jan 09, 2014 5:12 pm

And LeBatard's vote permanently revoked.

http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/10269 ... -hall-fame
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Re: Glavine, Maddux and Thomas Cooperstown

Unread postby FUDU » Thu Jan 09, 2014 5:36 pm

Good for LeBatard.
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Re: Glavine, Maddux and Thomas Cooperstown

Unread postby peeker643 » Thu Jan 09, 2014 5:57 pm

Smart, really.

He's long said he's not a baseball expert despite being a baseball (among other topics) writer and that he's not qualified to have a vote.

So if it was disposable in his mind, and he thinks the system is shit and doesn't work, what better way to illustrate that than with a move like this. And I'd be surprised if he didn't expect the response and count on that to be more public than his actually giving away his vote.

Reminder- I've literally seen Paul Hoynes asleep in the press box. These are the miserable, lazy people who are angry with their lot in life and will see their vote as the one hammer they have to hold over people eminently more talented than they are.

I hope the system burns. It's antiquated and ineffective.

Jacques Fucking Jones was named on a ballot while someone else left off Greg Maddux.

That's your HoF panel.
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Re: Glavine, Maddux and Thomas Cooperstown

Unread postby British_Pharaoh » Thu Jan 09, 2014 6:33 pm

BBWAA need to root out whoever voted for Jones stick a radish up his arse
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Re: Glavine, Maddux and Thomas Cooperstown

Unread postby leadpipe » Thu Jan 09, 2014 8:01 pm

This isn't even the funniest vote in the LeBatard family. "Papi" has a Heisman vote - and he can't name 3 players in all of college football.

In the end LeBatard has said for years, he puts the allotted 10 people every year. So, the ballot that got turned in would be about identical should he have turned it in himself.
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Re: Glavine, Maddux and Thomas Cooperstown

Unread postby FUDU » Thu Jan 09, 2014 8:06 pm

Just curious, what system of voters and voting should replace the current one?
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Re: Glavine, Maddux and Thomas Cooperstown

Unread postby peeker643 » Thu Jan 09, 2014 8:49 pm

FUDU wrote:Just curious, what system of voters and voting should replace the current one?


No idea. Donny.

But when my truck is making noises and running rough I can tell you there's a problem without knowing how to fix it. ;-) ;) :wink:
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Re: Glavine, Maddux and Thomas Cooperstown

Unread postby skatingtripods » Thu Jan 09, 2014 8:50 pm

FUDU wrote:Just curious, what system of voters and voting should replace the current one?


The max vote of 10 needs to be taken away. While I don't want just anybody in the Hall of Fame, forcing people to decide between Larry Walker or Craig Biggio or Curt Schilling is ridiculous.

@JonBecker28 8 Jan
@KeithLaw I voted 10 and took Biggio off at last minute for Walker. Ugh! I would have voted for 14 guys this year.


They need to re-evaluate who votes. There are guys that haven't covered baseball in 15 years with HOF votes.

All ballots need to be made public so the idiocy of voting for Jacque Jones and Armando Benitez ends. If guys had to be accountable for their votes, maybe they'd take the process a lot more seriously. If faced with ridicule, maybe JT Snow doesn't get a vote, because he doesn't deserve one.

Personally, I think the 75% rule is too high. There are guys who won't put their own egos aside to vote for a deserving player who was a dick to them one too many times.

I really hate the public making choices, but the Deadspin ballot shows that the masses might be informed enough to make this decision. It's fans who visit the BBHOF. They should have some kind of say, even if it only accounts for one vote out of the entire electorate.

Something needs to be determined about the steroid era. There can't be a grey area. Either the BBWAA and the HOF recognize it and add asterisks or voters should be told to ignore it altogether. There are cheaters from all eras in the HOF. Some kind of standards need to be set for players in that era.

Did Clemens cheat? Yes. Was he facing hitters that were cheating? Yes. Wouldn't that, theoretically, balance it out somewhat? Were hitters facing pitchers on the juice? Absolutely. There's no sense in speculating who used, who didn't, and what impact it actually had on a player's performance.
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Re: Glavine, Maddux and Thomas Cooperstown

Unread postby FUDU » Fri Jan 10, 2014 7:47 am

The problem with the public vote, as LeBatard mentions, is players wouldn't get in just b/c a fan didn't like them. If you put Bonds to a fan vote he doesn't get in, people in general don't like him, they didn't before he took roids. Granted he was HOF bound prior to taking roids, the perception will out weigh the objectivity and logic needed to put a guy like him in.

Not sure I agree with or understand the 5 year waiting period either. Maybe in case a guy comes back the next year? You don't want a HOF player actually playing I suppose.
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Re: Glavine, Maddux and Thomas Cooperstown

Unread postby motherscratcher » Fri Jan 10, 2014 9:07 am

I'm not sure what you're trying to say FUDU

Are you saying the fans wouldn't put Bonds in because they don't like him? Or are you sayin they wouldn't put him in because of the roids?
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Re: Glavine, Maddux and Thomas Cooperstown

Unread postby pup » Fri Jan 10, 2014 9:46 am

If you are 10th or 11th or 14th on a ballot...odds are you should not be a Hall of Famer.

The Hall should include the no doubters. Let the veteran's committee handle the "close" guys.
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Re: Glavine, Maddux and Thomas Cooperstown

Unread postby FUDU » Fri Jan 10, 2014 12:31 pm

motherscratcher wrote:I'm not sure what you're trying to say FUDU

Are you saying the fans wouldn't put Bonds in because they don't like him? Or are you sayin they wouldn't put him in because of the roids?


I'm saying they won't put him in b/c they don't like him, never have.

Personally I think voters should be required to only vote for 5-6 guys.
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Re: Glavine, Maddux and Thomas Cooperstown

Unread postby skatingtripods » Fri Jan 10, 2014 12:45 pm

@AVSNY: BBWAA member Lawrence Rocca votes for Morris, Nomo, Raines, Trammell... and no one else.
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Re: Glavine, Maddux and Thomas Cooperstown

Unread postby motherscratcher » Fri Jan 10, 2014 4:46 pm

pup wrote:If you are 10th or 11th or 14th on a ballot...odds are you should not be a Hall of Famer.

The Hall should include the no doubters. Let the veteran's committee handle the "close" guys.



The problem is a lot of these guys you are talking about wouldn't be 10th or 11th on a ballot if there weren't so many jackasses keeping obvious HOFers like Bonds, Clemens, Piazza, and Bagwell out of the Hall and on the ballot. They didn't put anyone in last year so there's a huge backlog this year.

The hilarious thing is, all of the morons like Murray Chass who only voted for Jack Morris the last 5 years are probably the reason he never made it. If the ballot would have been clear of the guys who Chass would never vote for, maybe there's room on a lot more ballots for some of the guys to squeeze in Morris.
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Re: Glavine, Maddux and Thomas Cooperstown

Unread postby motherscratcher » Fri Jan 10, 2014 4:49 pm

FUDU wrote:
motherscratcher wrote:I'm not sure what you're trying to say FUDU

Are you saying the fans wouldn't put Bonds in because they don't like him? Or are you sayin they wouldn't put him in because of the roids?


I'm saying they won't put him in b/c they don't like him, never have.

Personally I think voters should be required to only vote for 5-6 guys.


If you're only allowing them to vote for 5-6 guys I assume you're also lowering the 75% requirement for enshrinement?
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Re: Glavine, Maddux and Thomas Cooperstown

Unread postby pup » Fri Jan 10, 2014 5:25 pm

motherscratcher wrote:
pup wrote:If you are 10th or 11th or 14th on a ballot...odds are you should not be a Hall of Famer.

The Hall should include the no doubters. Let the veteran's committee handle the "close" guys.



The problem is a lot of these guys you are talking about wouldn't be 10th or 11th on a ballot if there weren't so many jackasses keeping obvious HOFers like Bonds, Clemens, Piazza, and Bagwell out of the Hall and on the ballot. They didn't put anyone in last year so there's a huge backlog this year.

The hilarious thing is, all of the morons like Murray Chass who only voted for Jack Morris the last 5 years are probably the reason he never made it. If the ballot would have been clear of the guys who Chass would never vote for, maybe there's room on a lot more ballots for some of the guys to squeeze in Morris.


What is so clogged? Because someone didn't get to put Larry Walker on their ballot? Who gives a rats ass. He got 20% of the vote...not exactly damn just missed because Buster Olney decides to vote for guys that have no chance to get in instead of him. Craig Biggio? Exactly where he belongs. Fringe HoFer just missing in his 2nd year. So wait another year.
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Re: Glavine, Maddux and Thomas Cooperstown

Unread postby peeker643 » Fri Jan 10, 2014 5:52 pm

pup wrote:
motherscratcher wrote:
pup wrote:If you are 10th or 11th or 14th on a ballot...odds are you should not be a Hall of Famer.

The Hall should include the no doubters. Let the veteran's committee handle the "close" guys.



The problem is a lot of these guys you are talking about wouldn't be 10th or 11th on a ballot if there weren't so many jackasses keeping obvious HOFers like Bonds, Clemens, Piazza, and Bagwell out of the Hall and on the ballot. They didn't put anyone in last year so there's a huge backlog this year.

The hilarious thing is, all of the morons like Murray Chass who only voted for Jack Morris the last 5 years are probably the reason he never made it. If the ballot would have been clear of the guys who Chass would never vote for, maybe there's room on a lot more ballots for some of the guys to squeeze in Morris.


What is so clogged? Because someone didn't get to put Larry Walker on their ballot? Who gives a rats ass. He got 20% of the vote...not exactly damn just missed because Buster Olney decides to vote for guys that have no chance to get in instead of him. Craig Biggio? Exactly where he belongs. Fringe HoFer just missing in his 2nd year. So wait another year.


Like I said, I think the process blows and there are guys there who have no clue what they're doing. Their ballots annually more of a joke than LeBatard selling his to people serious about the process and the HoF.

But I agree with you that this year's guys are the right call. No one loves a guy like Biggio more than I do. But I also agree he's a fringe HoFer.

Sorry if people disagree with that.
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Re: Glavine, Maddux and Thomas Cooperstown

Unread postby FUDU » Fri Jan 10, 2014 7:16 pm

motherscratcher wrote:
FUDU wrote:
motherscratcher wrote:I'm not sure what you're trying to say FUDU

Are you saying the fans wouldn't put Bonds in because they don't like him? Or are you sayin they wouldn't put him in because of the roids?


I'm saying they won't put him in b/c they don't like him, never have.

Personally I think voters should be required to only vote for 5-6 guys.


If you're only allowing them to vote for 5-6 guys I assume you're also lowering the 75% requirement for enshrinement?


I'd have no problem with lowering the % requirement, but by maximizing the eligible players per year to 5-6 I don't think reaching the 75% would be a major problem. I think in some cases it would put certain deserving guys in sooner, like a Biggio.

The other part of the equation is who receives a vote, the fact long time baseball exPERTS and play by play guys don't have a vote compared to some schmuck who used to cover baseball back in 1988 is absurd.
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Re: Glavine, Maddux and Thomas Cooperstown

Unread postby FUDU » Fri Jan 10, 2014 7:22 pm

The other problem I have with HOF voting (in all sports) is the with Walker or Biggio examples already mentioned. If a guy doesn't make it in year X, why is he more deserving in year X+2 or X+7 etc? If the Hall is the Hall why do those type guys credentials become more impressive or deserving over time? Just b/c his competitors in that specific voting year are different or of lesser credentials?
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Re: Glavine, Maddux and Thomas Cooperstown

Unread postby motherscratcher » Fri Jan 10, 2014 7:30 pm

FUDU wrote:
motherscratcher wrote:
FUDU wrote:
motherscratcher wrote:I'm not sure what you're trying to say FUDU

Are you saying the fans wouldn't put Bonds in because they don't like him? Or are you sayin they wouldn't put him in because of the roids?


I'm saying they won't put him in b/c they don't like him, never have.

Personally I think voters should be required to only vote for 5-6 guys.


If you're only allowing them to vote for 5-6 guys I assume you're also lowering the 75% requirement for enshrinement?


I'd have no problem with lowering the % requirement, but by maximizing the eligible players per year to 5-6 I don't think reaching the 75% would be a major problem. I think in some cases it would put certain deserving guys in sooner, like a Biggio.

The other part of the equation is who receives a vote, the fact long time baseball exPERTS and play by play guys don't have a vote compared to some schmuck who used to cover baseball back in 1988 is absurd.


I think maybe you don't have a complete handle on how the voting works. There are something like 571 BBWAA voters. Let's round it to 600 to make the maths easier. Biggio in that case needs to appear on 450 ballots to get in. Explain to me how reducing ballot spots from 6,000 to 3,000-3,6000 ballot spots will make it easier for him to get in.

Biggio needed 2 more votes to get in. How short would he have been if you eliminate all of the votes for people that had him between 6-10 on their ballots?
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Re: Glavine, Maddux and Thomas Cooperstown

Unread postby FUDU » Fri Jan 10, 2014 8:40 pm

Maybe I'm assuming voters (the good ones) would avoid borderline players and be forced to put players they feel are legit only on their ballot.
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Re: Glavine, Maddux and Thomas Cooperstown

Unread postby leadpipe » Fri Jan 10, 2014 10:13 pm

FUDU wrote:
motherscratcher wrote:I'm not sure what you're trying to say FUDU

Are you saying the fans wouldn't put Bonds in because they don't like him? Or are you sayin they wouldn't put him in because of the roids?


I'm saying they won't put him in b/c they don't like him, never have.

Personally I think voters should be required to only vote for 5-6 guys.


On this topic, I think the fans would be very biased based on personal like/hate.

Which would make them no different than the writers, ex-players, or anyone the hell else they wanna give the vote to.

The 90% rule covers all disciplines.

And the only reason the 10 limit would ever be CLOSE to a problem would be the present - where a lot of "steroid" guys, that would've already been in, are backlogging things. Other than the initial years the joint was open, You'd be hard pressed to find 10 guys worthy in a single voting season.

Personally, as I've said before, if we gotta argue about you, you're out. Now, that's my definition. To which I would add, I'm happy for anyone that gets in there, and I'm not the least bit plussed should someone get in I don't think was Babe Ruth.

And there's jackasses out there - fans, writers, ex-players, that would've left Ruth off the ballot.
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Re: Glavine, Maddux and Thomas Cooperstown

Unread postby FUDU » Fri Jan 10, 2014 10:25 pm

I'm pretty much the same way, if we have to debate you well how deserving are you?
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Re: Glavine, Maddux and Thomas Cooperstown

Unread postby motherscratcher » Sat Jan 11, 2014 10:56 am

FUDU wrote:Maybe I'm assuming voters (the good ones) would avoid borderline players and be forced to put players they feel are legit only on their ballot.


So, the theory goes that some voters put borderline players on their ballots now and leave some legit players off, but if they had less spots they might leave off the borderline players that were on their ballots and add the legit players that they'd for some reason left off the bigger ballot?
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Re: Glavine, Maddux and Thomas Cooperstown

Unread postby motherscratcher » Sat Jan 11, 2014 10:58 am

FUDU wrote:I'm pretty much the same way, if we have to debate you well how deserving are you?


You guys are silly. Of course there should be debate, and the existence of a debate is no reason to declare someone unqualified for the hall.
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Re: Glavine, Maddux and Thomas Cooperstown

Unread postby FUDU » Sat Jan 11, 2014 1:59 pm

Well let's take a Larry Walker, obviously a very good player, but there are a few things you can nit pick about his numbers that make him "debatable" for the Hall, is the Hall something that should be debatable, IMO no, AS games are debatable not a place for qualifying all time achievements. I'm not big on the ball park effect on his numbers (he still hit the ball when pitched to him) but I can understand those who would hold Coors against him. He was among the elite hitters for about 7 years, that's not a cup of coffee but that's not a lifetime either. A consistent AS but not a guaranteed AS, and he missed a lot of games. There's plenty of room to suggest he's not Hall worthy.

Maybe I under value the term debate in this context, I'm not for a situation where there is NO discussion mind you, but I think there needs to be a few things that really standout about a player to be Hall worthy. Extraordinary numbers, longevity, unquestioned consistency of being better than average (if not extraordinary) things of that nature...for my money I have a hard time signing off on Larry Walker getting in, I mean if this was strat he'd be a shoe in for me, dude crushes RHP.
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Re: Glavine, Maddux and Thomas Cooperstown

Unread postby 1Perry » Sat Jan 11, 2014 4:30 pm

Biggio should be in. He will be. What LeBatard did with his ballot is certainly no more offensive than what other voters have done for years.

There is a valid reason for debate and it suits a good purpose. I thought it was great when Mazeroski finally got in. His was the best induction speech I've ever seen but he doesn't get in without the continued debate.

The same debate will be carried out when Vizquel becomes eligible. To me someone like Vizquel or Maz belongs in before we start voting DH's in. Many of them may very well belong but that's is the value of there being a debate.
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Re: Glavine, Maddux and Thomas Cooperstown

Unread postby FUDU » Sat Jan 11, 2014 4:41 pm

Interesting, as I don't see anything to debate about Vizquel. Defensively superior to all shortstops except MAYBE 1, as good offensively as that same 1 SS (who is in the Hall), longevity, consistency.
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Re: Glavine, Maddux and Thomas Cooperstown

Unread postby motherscratcher » Sat Jan 11, 2014 5:37 pm

Too late. Like it or not there is and will be a debate about Vizquel so by your own criteria he's already out.
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Re: Glavine, Maddux and Thomas Cooperstown

Unread postby FUDU » Sat Jan 11, 2014 6:09 pm

motherscratcher wrote:Too late. Like it or not there is and will be a debate about Vizquel so by your own criteria he's already out.


Oh he's in, but I get your point.
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Re: Glavine, Maddux and Thomas Cooperstown

Unread postby motherscratcher » Sat Jan 11, 2014 6:21 pm

FUDU wrote:
motherscratcher wrote:Too late. Like it or not there is and will be a debate about Vizquel so by your own criteria he's already out.


Oh he's in, but I get your point.


Do you really think he'll get in? I'd love to see it but I wonder. He's not a SABR darling like Raines or Trammell, and I don't know if he has as much support from the more old school traditional guys as a player like Morris did.

When did he retire? The next few ballots are going to be packed so the longer it will be before he appears the better it will be for him.
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Re: Glavine, Maddux and Thomas Cooperstown

Unread postby FUDU » Sat Jan 11, 2014 6:52 pm

Yes. I think all purists will put him in. He's eligible starting 2017 or 2018.
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Re: Glavine, Maddux and Thomas Cooperstown

Unread postby skatingtripods » Sat Jan 11, 2014 10:31 pm

FWIW, I don't think Vizquel gets in. I don't think the voting committee will weigh his defense heavily enough to get 75% of the vote.
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Re: Glavine, Maddux and Thomas Cooperstown

Unread postby 1Perry » Sun Jan 12, 2014 7:28 am

FUDU wrote:Interesting, as I don't see anything to debate about Vizquel. Defensively superior to all shortstops except MAYBE 1, as good offensively as that same 1 SS (who is in the Hall), longevity, consistency.


I completely agree. Not everyone will.
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