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Does an undefeated OSU team make the NCG?

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Re: Does an undefeated OSU team make the NCG?

Unread postby jb » Tue Dec 03, 2013 4:52 pm

FUDU wrote:As this season has progressed, and after this weekend and reading all sorts of different articles and PsOV I am thoroughly convinced CFB in general is arguably as biased and corrupt as any single other sport in this country. Every single fan base is the same when it comes to objectivity, and degrees of hypocrisy (at least about on what transpires on the field), regional honks are all the same with their bias'. If it weren't for the actual on the field action, and the overall excitement a CFB brings it wouldn't be worth watching at all.

I really don't think anything will change until the sport is rid of old money, old boys club and a playoff format that is run off of 4 super conferences and 16 teams are eligible.



WTF have I been telling you for about a month now, FUDU?

Welcome to the mountain top view.

There is a reason why the BCS / D1A is different from every other NCAA or even NAIA sport. That reason is money and corruption.
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Re: Does an undefeated OSU team make the NCG?

Unread postby FUDU » Tue Dec 03, 2013 5:29 pm

Oh I've heard it before JB, I've believed it too, but have convinced myself so many times that "oh it's not that bad". It is, to me it is akin to our struggles with politics/government.

Close friend of mine, huge CFB fan, Buckeye fan, walked away from being a fan of the sport the day the BCS came about. He didn't buy it, said it was way too suspicious in its inception, the people pushing for it, the people in charge, those who they sublet the process out to, 100%. I laughed at him. He won't even watch THE game on TV, reminds me of so many old timers and boycotting Art b/c of Paul Brown.

Garbage in, garbage out.
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Re: Does an undefeated OSU team make the NCG?

Unread postby Love child of shawn kemp » Tue Dec 03, 2013 6:02 pm

One of my friends is so biased against the Big 10 that he bet me a 6 pack of my choice that Auburn was going to jump OSU in the BCS this past week after they beat Alabama. Free GL XMas ale is going to taste even better.
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Re: Does an undefeated OSU team make the NCG?

Unread postby leadpipe » Tue Dec 03, 2013 8:45 pm

Not sure why everyone want to blame the BCS. It was just as bad before the BCS. If not worse. Michigan beating a .500 team in the Holiday Bowl to win the NC, the President of the United Stated crowning a team, and the same biased bullshit that goes on today.

Not solving it on the field is, and always has been the issue, not the BCS.
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Re: Does an undefeated OSU team make the NCG?

Unread postby furls » Tue Dec 03, 2013 9:03 pm

Love child of shawn kemp wrote:One of my friends is so biased against the Big 10 that he bet me a 6 pack of my choice that Auburn was going to jump OSU in the BCS this past week after they beat Alabama. Free GL XMas ale is going to taste even better.


Well done. What blows me away is how little anyone actually understands about the process. Calculating a BCS score is just multiplication (with a little division). It really isn't that complicated, once you know the computer rankings. Why is it that sports broadcasters, who obviously know very little about it, feel free to comment on whether or not teams will jump other teams?

After looking at the computer poll numbers, the actual data, I am 100% convinced that there is NO WAY that Auburn jumps Ohio State even if they win by 1,000 this week. It would take a poll rigging so blatant that even a Soviet Premier would be embarrassed.

Your friend obviously fell victim to the immediately after the game, uninformed drivel that was at best ignorant at worst seeking cheap site clicks. They roped me in. I didn't realize the computer margins were that big. Computers HATE losses.
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Re: Does an undefeated OSU team make the NCG?

Unread postby furls » Tue Dec 03, 2013 9:05 pm

leadpipe wrote:Not sure why everyone want to blame the BCS. It was just as bad before the BCS. If not worse. Michigan beating a .500 team in the Holiday Bowl to win the NC, the President of the United Stated crowning a team, and the same biased bullshit that goes on today.

Not solving it on the field is, and always has been the issue, not the BCS.


As sad as it is, you are spot on. The BCS is actually better than the old system, by a long ways. At least it forces some good teams to play some other good teams.
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Re: Does an undefeated OSU team make the NCG?

Unread postby FUDU » Tue Dec 03, 2013 9:31 pm

Well the BCS gets some backlash, and IMO somewhat justified, b/c of where it came from. The fundamental flaw of preseason rankings perpetuates the pre-BCS issues as well.

Semi related, this is an interesting read, lots of solid points, some pretty sound logic, and documented history that seems to get underplayed in the perpetual national debate about regional supremacy.

http://www.thepostgame.com/commentary/201208/better-without-em-northern-manifesto-southern-secession-chuck-thompson-sec-bcs
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Re: Does an undefeated OSU team make the NCG?

Unread postby furls » Tue Dec 03, 2013 9:53 pm

FUDU wrote:Well the BCS gets some backlash, and IMO somewhat justified, b/c of where it came from. The fundamental flaw of preseason rankings perpetuates the pre-BCS issues as well.

Semi related, this is an interesting read, lots of solid points, some pretty sound logic, and documented history that seems to get underplayed in the perpetual national debate about regional supremacy.

http://www.thepostgame.com/commentary/201208/better-without-em-northern-manifesto-southern-secession-chuck-thompson-sec-bcs


Very good read. Touches on the preseason ranking bias. It really is interesting to see how preseason rankings compare to end of season rankings. Clemson is a prime example of what is wrong with preseason rankings. Clemson's preseason position this year was primarily based on one game last year, the LSU game.

So Clemson starts the year ranked at 8, not completely unreasonable, and then goes on to beat a UGA team ranked 5 (obviously a huge mistake). This seemingly big win bumps Clemson to 4 and ultimately to 3 a week later. It turns out that Clemson is not special for beating UGA, apparently everyone does that.

Clemson goes on to get housed by FSU who beats another paper tiger fabricated by preseason polls (Miami) to compile the majority of its unscrutinized resume. FSU has won its games decisively, but people still look at those games like they were big wins. That Clemson win was sooo big that Clemson was actually a 5 point dog to USCe and USCe covered. Clemson was and is nothing special.
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Re: Does an undefeated OSU team make the NCG?

Unread postby FUDU » Tue Dec 03, 2013 10:08 pm

IMO preseason rankings also get impacted by big name players on a roster, and our Buckeye's have received that benefit at times no doubt. Clemson might have been benefactors of such preseason hype due to Boyd?

The comprehensive W-L records of the BCS era are also interesting, and does provide an example of just how perceptions can manifest themselves, while not always being what I call a clean truth. They don't just discount the accomplishments of the past 6 years, but do shed light on a wider more larger sample size.

Very frustrating to think of just how long CFB has stuck with such a flawed methodology, especially seeing as how many cerebral universities CFB at it's disposal.
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Re: Does an undefeated OSU team make the NCG?

Unread postby motherscratcher » Tue Dec 03, 2013 11:00 pm

FUDU wrote:Well the BCS gets some backlash, and IMO somewhat justified, b/c of where it came from. The fundamental flaw of preseason rankings perpetuates the pre-BCS issues as well.

Semi related, this is an interesting read, lots of solid points, some pretty sound logic, and documented history that seems to get underplayed in the perpetual national debate about regional supremacy.

http://www.thepostgame.com/commentary/201208/better-without-em-northern-manifesto-southern-secession-chuck-thompson-sec-bcs


That was a great read. It articulated a lot of shit that I already thought. And it also brought up a lot of great points that I hadn't really considered, such as the self fulfilling prophesy of the preseason polls. I mean, I knew they were silly, but I never really put it into context how they effect everything that follows to such a degree.
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Re: Does an undefeated OSU team make the NCG?

Unread postby motherscratcher » Tue Dec 03, 2013 11:01 pm

Basically, I'm going to bookmark it and read it twice a day. Then I'm going to go looking for any SEC fans that turn up at my Christmas parties.
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Re: Does an undefeated OSU team make the NCG?

Unread postby jb » Wed Dec 04, 2013 10:59 am

leadpipe wrote:Not sure why everyone want to blame the BCS. It was just as bad before the BCS. If not worse. Michigan beating a .500 team in the Holiday Bowl to win the NC, the President of the United Stated crowning a team, and the same biased bullshit that goes on today.

Not solving it on the field is, and always has been the issue, not the BCS.



Piper, you write in terms as if the BCS is somehow separate from what was in effect prior. It's not. It's a hood ornament on a Volare. The BCS is just a collection of bowl committee members and football centric AD's from the large conferences that slapped a veneer on the old system and played matchmaker. It's a bunch of old boys smoking cigars stacking hundreds in a bill counting machine. If you recall, the first BCS rules placed heavier stock on computerized rankings. Oh NO! Can't have THAT!

The BCS is the same as what was, with a twist.

The bowl committees need to be taken out of this. There needs to be a 16 team playoff. period, end of story.
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Re: Does an undefeated OSU team make the NCG?

Unread postby FUDU » Wed Dec 04, 2013 11:41 am

The foundation of the prior system was 100% subjective, the foundation of today's system still has significant subjectivity (you can argue exactly how much on your own). In the end that means truth isn't always evident, manipulation is possible and satisfaction is difficult to provide.

So while I agree that 16 team playoff is probably best (in the past I've believed 8), can we do the former without subjectivity tied to the process? IOW how are we getting down to 16? One inherent problem is that this is football and it has to be one & done, and the fact that you can only have each team play one game a week. So season longevity DOES come into play.
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Re: Does an undefeated OSU team make the NCG?

Unread postby pup » Wed Dec 04, 2013 11:45 am

The problem isn't E$PN pushing an agenda.

It is the morons who actually vote for these things following their agenda.
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Re: Does an undefeated OSU team make the NCG?

Unread postby danwismar » Wed Dec 04, 2013 12:31 pm

jb wrote:
leadpipe wrote:Not sure why everyone want to blame the BCS. It was just as bad before the BCS. If not worse. Michigan beating a .500 team in the Holiday Bowl to win the NC, the President of the United Stated crowning a team, and the same biased bullshit that goes on today.

Not solving it on the field is, and always has been the issue, not the BCS.



Piper, you write in terms as if the BCS is somehow separate from what was in effect prior. It's not. It's a hood ornament on a Volare. The BCS is just a collection of bowl committee members and football centric AD's from the large conferences that slapped a veneer on the old system and played matchmaker. It's a bunch of old boys smoking cigars stacking hundreds in a bill counting machine. If you recall, the first BCS rules placed heavier stock on computerized rankings. Oh NO! Can't have THAT!

The BCS is the same as what was, with a twist.

The bowl committees need to be taken out of this. There needs to be a 16 team playoff. period, end of story.


So...we move on to a system with even less apparent objectivity...a committee composed of...you guessed it...largely athletic directors from football-dominated programs and other long time CFB good old boys (Osborne, Alvarez, Luck, etc) who will go into a room next December and come out with four teams to play off, which by no means have to be the top four teams in any ranking, computer or otherwise. There will be an emphasis on conference championship winners over teams like say, Alabama this year...who are arguably (certainly?) one of the best four teams, but didn't win the SEC championship. Heard one guy (Brad Edwards?) saying yesterday, he thought that if this year's circumstances occurred next year, the committee would likely select Oklahoma St (assuming they win Big 12 CG) over Alabama (to join FSU, OSU, Auburn).

The committee has one token media representative and a couple of other wild cards (college football expert Condi Rice for one) but it's essentially the same crowd we have now.
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Re: Does an undefeated OSU team make the NCG?

Unread postby FUDU » Wed Dec 04, 2013 12:56 pm

Still part of the problem, that is subtly touched on in the article linked a few post above, is when we deem a team not as good as we thought or better than we thought based on ONE game they have either won or lost, v. specific competition?

For instance, Bama is a good team, but are they a very good team? They lost one game, but they lost that one game to a team that won their share of games this year in not so real convincing manner and also lost convincingly to a two loss team. That team also escaped certain defeat by means of the most improbable of circumstance, one of those game being against Bama. So does that make Auburn good, or does that make Bama not as good, b/c it can't be both, unless that same benefit is afforded every team in ever conference. Subjectivity rules the day in those circumstance, but that same subjectivity is not implemented across the board, at least not consistent logic in doing so. It's borderline retarded in many cases. So it begs the question, how are wins and losses valued, b/c they are not consistently valued in opposition, not even close.
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Re: Does an undefeated OSU team make the NCG?

Unread postby leadpipe » Wed Dec 04, 2013 7:45 pm

jb wrote:
leadpipe wrote:Not sure why everyone want to blame the BCS. It was just as bad before the BCS. If not worse. Michigan beating a .500 team in the Holiday Bowl to win the NC, the President of the United Stated crowning a team, and the same biased bullshit that goes on today.

Not solving it on the field is, and always has been the issue, not the BCS.



Piper, you write in terms as if the BCS is somehow separate from what was in effect prior. It's not. It's a hood ornament on a Volare. The BCS is just a collection of bowl committee members and football centric AD's from the large conferences that slapped a veneer on the old system and played matchmaker. It's a bunch of old boys smoking cigars stacking hundreds in a bill counting machine. If you recall, the first BCS rules placed heavier stock on computerized rankings. Oh NO! Can't have THAT!

The BCS is the same as what was, with a twist.

The bowl committees need to be taken out of this. There needs to be a 16 team playoff. period, end of story.


I'm perfectly well aware of all of this. I'm not the one whining about the BCS, cause it's always been basically the same issues. Other people act like the BCS fell from the sky and ruined college football, when, in all actuality, it was in some ways WORSE BEFORE the BCS.
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Re: Does an undefeated OSU team make the NCG?

Unread postby jb » Wed Dec 04, 2013 11:53 pm

Good points raised.

My foil is it is one thing to be screwed out of bein 16 & quite another out of 2.
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