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The hydrogen future

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The hydrogen future

Unread postby jb » Wed Oct 16, 2013 10:29 am

Malthus will again be served:

http://autos.yahoo.com/blogs/motoramic/driving-car-toyota-wants-save-world-145312879.html

Only question is how much Big Energy can hold this back like the EV1.
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Re: The hydrogen future

Unread postby FUDU » Wed Oct 16, 2013 3:54 pm

It's is all about the law of thermodynamics/energy density/infrastructure.

What rarely gets reported, or what often gets forgotten about is the footprint of manufacturing these alternatives that are supposedly about making a smaller footprint. Love to see all the solutions in a side by side comparison in terms of their manufacturing footprint. My bet it's akin to seeing what in the food we eat.

Hydrogen is the holy grail here, but also the mos difficult to accomplish. As a short term solution many feel diesel, the new diesel, is the answer.

What's your guess on a viable infrastructure in the US. 15 years, 30, 50?
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Re: The hydrogen future

Unread postby GodHatesClevelandSport » Wed Oct 16, 2013 11:01 pm

FUDU wrote:It's is all about the law of thermodynamics/energy density/infrastructure.

What rarely gets reported, or what often gets forgotten about is the footprint of manufacturing these alternatives that are supposedly about making a smaller footprint. Love to see all the solutions in a side by side comparison in terms of their manufacturing footprint. My bet it's akin to seeing what in the food we eat.

Hydrogen is the holy grail here, but also the mos difficult to accomplish. As a short term solution many feel diesel, the new diesel, is the answer.

What's your guess on a viable infrastructure in the US. 15 years, 30, 50?


This could give you some of those answers. Short version -- never happening:

http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/w ... swers.html
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Re: The hydrogen future

Unread postby jb » Thu Oct 17, 2013 9:13 am

GodHatesClevelandSport wrote:
FUDU wrote:It's is all about the law of thermodynamics/energy density/infrastructure.

What rarely gets reported, or what often gets forgotten about is the footprint of manufacturing these alternatives that are supposedly about making a smaller footprint. Love to see all the solutions in a side by side comparison in terms of their manufacturing footprint. My bet it's akin to seeing what in the food we eat.

Hydrogen is the holy grail here, but also the mos difficult to accomplish. As a short term solution many feel diesel, the new diesel, is the answer.

What's your guess on a viable infrastructure in the US. 15 years, 30, 50?


This could give you some of those answers. Short version -- never happening:

http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/w ... swers.html



Thanks Malthus.

FUDU I don't think Ill see the transition in my lifetime but unless there is a bizarre Mad Max apocalyptic future Id say about 75 years. The curve of fossel fuels availability will demand it.
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Re: The hydrogen future

Unread postby mattvan1 » Thu Oct 17, 2013 1:16 pm

GodHatesClevelandSport wrote:
FUDU wrote:It's is all about the law of thermodynamics/energy density/infrastructure.

What rarely gets reported, or what often gets forgotten about is the footprint of manufacturing these alternatives that are supposedly about making a smaller footprint. Love to see all the solutions in a side by side comparison in terms of their manufacturing footprint. My bet it's akin to seeing what in the food we eat.

Hydrogen is the holy grail here, but also the mos difficult to accomplish. As a short term solution many feel diesel, the new diesel, is the answer.

What's your guess on a viable infrastructure in the US. 15 years, 30, 50?


This could give you some of those answers. Short version -- never happening:

http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/w ... swers.html


Uh, no offense, but that article was written 10 years ago, which is essentially on a geologic time scale with respect to technology innovation.

The real issue is now that the US shale boom is in full swing, not enough research will be done on alternative sources of automotive fuel.
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Re: The hydrogen future

Unread postby FUDU » Thu Oct 17, 2013 3:03 pm

jb wrote:
GodHatesClevelandSport wrote:
FUDU wrote:It's is all about the law of thermodynamics/energy density/infrastructure.

What rarely gets reported, or what often gets forgotten about is the footprint of manufacturing these alternatives that are supposedly about making a smaller footprint. Love to see all the solutions in a side by side comparison in terms of their manufacturing footprint. My bet it's akin to seeing what in the food we eat.

Hydrogen is the holy grail here, but also the mos difficult to accomplish. As a short term solution many feel diesel, the new diesel, is the answer.

What's your guess on a viable infrastructure in the US. 15 years, 30, 50?


This could give you some of those answers. Short version -- never happening:

http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/w ... swers.html



Thanks Malthus.

FUDU I don't think Ill see the transition in my lifetime but unless there is a bizarre Mad Max apocalyptic future Id say about 75 years. The curve of fossel fuels availability will demand it.

IMO if we reach the point in which the technology is deemed completely legit, safe and there is the opportunity for both private & public sector to profit we'll see the infrastructure up and running with few hiccups in 50 years. But as matt alludes, a few things could get in the way in the meantime. Plus we have to face the fact that nobody really knows the truth about just how much fossil fuel we have left.
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Re: The hydrogen future

Unread postby FUDU » Thu Oct 17, 2013 3:11 pm

GodHatesClevelandSport wrote:
FUDU wrote:It's is all about the law of thermodynamics/energy density/infrastructure.

What rarely gets reported, or what often gets forgotten about is the footprint of manufacturing these alternatives that are supposedly about making a smaller footprint. Love to see all the solutions in a side by side comparison in terms of their manufacturing footprint. My bet it's akin to seeing what in the food we eat.

Hydrogen is the holy grail here, but also the mos difficult to accomplish. As a short term solution many feel diesel, the new diesel, is the answer.

What's your guess on a viable infrastructure in the US. 15 years, 30, 50?


This could give you some of those answers. Short version -- never happening:

http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/w ... swers.html


I understand that, as I said, law of thermodynamics and all. Don't get me started on today's push for EVs.
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Re: The hydrogen future

Unread postby pod2dawg » Thu Oct 17, 2013 3:38 pm

75-100 more years.
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Re: The hydrogen future

Unread postby GodHatesClevelandSport » Fri Oct 18, 2013 7:10 pm

Besides the age of the article, what else is wrong about it?
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Re: The hydrogen future

Unread postby Erie Warrior » Sat Oct 19, 2013 6:44 am

GodHatesClevelandSport wrote:Besides the age of the article, what else is wrong about it?


Mostly the source. Michael Ruppert is most famous for saying the CIA is selling drugs to poor people and that Dick Cheney, the government and Wall Street were in cohoots on 9-11. I think he moved out of the country because the govt was trying to kill him.

He could be right. Or not.
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Re: The hydrogen future

Unread postby FUDU » Sun Oct 20, 2013 8:28 pm

I dug up an old article on the topic, it's a short solid read. It's hard to argue with really.

http://www.energyandcapital.com/articles/hydrogen-economy-fuel+cell/480
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Re: The hydrogen future

Unread postby GodHatesClevelandSport » Mon Oct 21, 2013 3:54 pm

I know all about Rupert. Peak Oil is my favorite apocalypse theory. I used to read forums about it all the time.

Whether you believe Rupert on his other theories is beside the point on this one. His analysis of hydrogen as a replacement for transportation fuel is filled with science and facts. Not much crackpot stuff in there. A lot of it is backed up in the article FUDU posted.
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Re: The hydrogen future

Unread postby jb » Wed Oct 23, 2013 10:39 am

Hydrogen is a renewable infinately abundant fuel source. It is a matter of when, not if.
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Re: The hydrogen future

Unread postby FUDU » Wed Oct 23, 2013 10:51 am

jb wrote:Hydrogen is a renewable infinately abundant fuel source. It is a matter of when, not if.


LOL, and you want to talk smack about science to me.

Read the info, it's all out there. If you can't get to it, you aren't using it. There no hydrogen well waiting to be tapped.

Sure we can get some and use it right now, but inefficiently and honestly and what cost? Like I said, just read all the info.
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Re: The hydrogen future

Unread postby pod2dawg » Wed Oct 23, 2013 11:40 am

Hydrogen is a renewable infinitely abundant fuel source...which is grossly inefficient and too costly to be practical....for 75-100yrs.
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Re: The hydrogen future

Unread postby FUDU » Wed Oct 23, 2013 12:25 pm

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Re: The hydrogen future

Unread postby jb » Wed Oct 30, 2013 3:19 pm

FUDU wrote:
jb wrote:Hydrogen is a renewable infinately abundant fuel source. It is a matter of when, not if.


LOL, and you want to talk smack about science to me.

Read the info, it's all out there. If you can't get to it, you aren't using it. There no hydrogen well waiting to be tapped.

Sure we can get some and use it right now, but inefficiently and honestly and what cost? Like I said, just read all the info.


You really are one malthusean dip shit, aren't you?

It is always impossible. Until it's not.

http://www.fee.org/the_freeman/detail/the-great-horse-manure-crisis-of-1894#axzz2jEbSBLh3

PS - AIDS was likly cured in an infant last month.

Not a matter of if but when.
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Re: The hydrogen future

Unread postby FUDU » Wed Oct 30, 2013 3:43 pm

LOL, you don't even understand the science jb, hell you think hydrogen is a fuel, and you think it exists every where in a user friendly form. It doesn't work that way. We can use hydrogen today, we could have used it 40 years ago, that isn't the issue. I mean for fucks sake you want to buy into science when global warming is dicsucced but you don't want to buy into science about this. Not to mention your comparing this to a 19th century problem whose solution was no restricted by science/physics, the solution to the horse crap problem (the automobile) could have been invented 100 years prior, it wasn't science that restricted that.


...and the AIDS thing, while great news, is a completely different scenario.
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Re: The hydrogen future

Unread postby jb » Fri Nov 01, 2013 1:50 pm

FUDU wrote:LOL, you don't even understand the science jb, hell you think hydrogen is a fuel, and you think it exists every where in a user friendly form. It doesn't work that way. We can use hydrogen today, we could have used it 40 years ago, that isn't the issue. I mean for fucks sake you want to buy into science when global warming is dicsucced but you don't want to buy into science about this. Not to mention your comparing this to a 19th century problem whose solution was no restricted by science/physics, the solution to the horse crap problem (the automobile) could have been invented 100 years prior, it wasn't science that restricted that.


...and the AIDS thing, while great news, is a completely different scenario.



You keep telling me what is. I'm telling you what is is not what will be. The course of man's very existance over the millenia has proven this as axiomatic.

Someone much smarter than me will develop the sceince to create a parctical fuel source out of this element.

Someone much more driven than me with a corporation with the resources will productize that when the market creates the imperative to do so.

Someone smarter than you will understand these two obvious and very reasonable scenarios.

I really don't understand why you keep laughing at yourself.
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Re: The hydrogen future

Unread postby FUDU » Fri Nov 01, 2013 5:01 pm

So someone is going to change the laws of science and physics? What I'm telling you is that without an unprecedented break through in technology that is world changing what you are suggesting isn't going to happen. Just b/c company A (say Toyota) makes a hydrogen car doesn't mean we've obtained that holy grail energy solution.

Go back and review:

what hydrogen is?
where it is?
how to get it?
what uses there are once we get it?
what we have to do in order to actually use it, for those things we decide we can use it for?
how much money and resources it will take to do all of the above?
what we will do to the Earth while accomplishing those things above?
what the differences between EVs and HVs are?
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Re: The hydrogen future

Unread postby FUDU » Wed Nov 13, 2013 6:23 pm

There's a better chance of a CNG world than a hydrogen world JB.

http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2013/11/chryslers_cng_fuel_tank_breakthrough.html

It's not the perfect solution, but it's very attainable.
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Re: The hydrogen future

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Thu Nov 14, 2013 12:29 am

The future (maybe): Refuel your car once every hundred years.

http://now.msn.com/thorium-powered-car- ... -100-years
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Re: The hydrogen future

Unread postby FUDU » Thu Nov 14, 2013 5:08 pm

Sounds interesting, gotta love the radiation aspect of it.
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Re: The hydrogen future

Unread postby jb » Thu Nov 14, 2013 5:09 pm

FUDU wrote:Sounds interesting, gotta love the radiation aspect of it.



Reading the article, I think your brain is made of Thorium, Donny.
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Re: The hydrogen future

Unread postby FUDU » Thu Nov 14, 2013 5:21 pm

jb wrote:
FUDU wrote:Sounds interesting, gotta love the radiation aspect of it.



Reading the article, I think your brain is made of Thorium, Donny.


What do you think fuels the world you live in JB. You can thank me in a 100 years.

Your mistake is mistaking me for being curmudgeon when it comes to this stuff, I'm quite the opposite, I just want people to understand energy is not some kind of magic dust you sprinkle around.

Like I said above, all these ideas need to be thought through completely, for lay-men like you and me to fully grasp, or at least you.

;-) ;) :wink:
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Re: The hydrogen future

Unread postby jb » Thu Nov 14, 2013 5:33 pm

FUDU wrote:
jb wrote:
FUDU wrote:Sounds interesting, gotta love the radiation aspect of it.



Reading the article, I think your brain is made of Thorium, Donny.


What do you think fuels the world you live in JB. You can thank me in a 100 years.

Your mistake is mistaking me for being curmudgeon when it comes to this stuff, I'm quite the opposite, I just want people to understand energy is not some kind of magic dust you sprinkle around.

Like I said above, all these ideas need to be thought through completely, for lay-men like you and me to fully grasp, or at least you.

;-) ;) :wink:



You think we'll still be bitchin at each other in 100 years on line?
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Re: The hydrogen future

Unread postby FUDU » Thu Nov 14, 2013 5:36 pm

I'm in it for the long haul.

I got 5Gs that by then the rivalry is 97-52-1, Eds. Figure 5Gs then will be like 20 bucks.
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