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Tom Verducci "Bonus At Bat"

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Should we adopt "the Bonus-At-Bat"

Yes, it would make the game more interesting
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Maybe, we should look into it further
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No
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AW HELL NO, why you wasting my time bookelly!?!
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Total votes : 11

Tom Verducci "Bonus At Bat"

Unread postby bookelly » Thu Nov 07, 2013 6:55 am

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Re: Tom Verducci "Bonus At Bat"

Unread postby motherscratcher » Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:55 am

Ok! I read through that link 3 times and I still don't see an explanation of what a bonus bat is.
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Re: Tom Verducci "Bonus At Bat"

Unread postby skatingtripods » Thu Nov 07, 2013 10:11 am

Verducci's generally clueless. A lot of the saber guys I follow on Twitter spend a good amount of time laughing at him. About the only thing I take away from this article is another reason why the pitcher having to bat is fucking stupid.
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Re: Tom Verducci "Bonus At Bat"

Unread postby motherscratcher » Thu Nov 07, 2013 10:46 am

skatingtripods wrote:Verducci's generally clueless. A lot of the saber guys I follow on Twitter spend a good amount of time laughing at him. About the only thing I take away from this article is another reason why the pitcher having to bat is fucking stupid.


No way, man. You just don't appreciate the intricacies and beauty of the double switch, which is nearly impossible to implement, much less understand unless you are a genius, I.e. a national league fan.

Just look at what happened to poor Boston. Farrell (an American League Guy) tried and failed to double switch and his head literally exploded in the dugout. Salty had to clean it off the wall. He's dead now, because he tried to bring his bush league simple bullshit to the National league and couldn't hang with the big boys.

Anyone who doesn't see the beauty in watching a pitcher strike out 3 times a game and in the middle of rallies doesn't truly understand baseball. I mean, David Ortiz?...who would ever want to see that fat lump of shit hit. How boring.
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Re: Tom Verducci "Bonus At Bat"

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Thu Nov 07, 2013 12:03 pm

Fucking hell...... just get rid of the batting pitcher. The only people who want to keep that boring ass product are the baseball purists and romantics who still live in the 1920's.

If you love watching a pitcher bat, then watching me taking a shit would blow your goddamn socks off.
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Re: Tom Verducci "Bonus At Bat"

Unread postby bookelly » Thu Nov 07, 2013 6:37 pm

motherscratcher wrote:Ok! I read through that link 3 times and I still don't see an explanation of what a bonus bat is.


The idea is that once per game you could bat any player out of order. So...should you walk Ortiz because 1B is empty, a pinch runner could take his place there and Ortiz could take a "bonus at-bat" now with the bases loaded.

I dunno why we just don't go with the "ghost runner on 1st" like we did as kids, but hey...ask Verduchi.
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Re: Tom Verducci "Bonus At Bat"

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Thu Nov 07, 2013 8:00 pm

Ghost runners were impossible to throw out when they tried to steal a base.
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Re: Tom Verducci "Bonus At Bat"

Unread postby bookelly » Thu Nov 07, 2013 8:02 pm

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:Ghost runners were impossible to throw out when they tried to steal a base.


Yeah...I always had Ty Cobb and Honus Wagner as my ghost runners. They could go 1st to home on a pop-up.

/yes I was a nerdy kid.
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Re: Tom Verducci "Bonus At Bat"

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Thu Nov 07, 2013 8:31 pm

I still remember the first time we broke a neighbor's window with a baseball. Must have been a funny sight for anyone watching, a half dozen kids scattering in different directions. Like the scene from Holy Grail "RUNAWAY RUNAWAY!".
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Re: Tom Verducci "Bonus At Bat"

Unread postby ChoccoIndians » Thu Nov 07, 2013 8:42 pm

I think when you brin in things like "Bonus" you are trying to discuss changing a game that is over a 100 years old, lets not go anywhere near a rule change like this.
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Re: Tom Verducci "Bonus At Bat"

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Thu Nov 07, 2013 8:44 pm

Just because something is old, doesn't mean it should be immune to change. That said, the bonus at bat is a really stupid idea.
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Re: Tom Verducci "Bonus At Bat"

Unread postby leadpipe » Thu Nov 07, 2013 11:45 pm

I like the pitcher hitting.

If you are a starting pitcher on this earth, you might have the most free time of anyone that has a "job." Put a little work into it.

I find it interesting that guys that are known for fanatical workout regiments in regard to their pitching craft, also somehow find time to handle the bat as well.

And I'm not a baseball purist. The games "unwritten rules" are generally dopey and Verducci's idea is ridiculous.
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Re: Tom Verducci "Bonus At Bat"

Unread postby skatingtripods » Fri Nov 08, 2013 10:02 am

Nothing like a pitcher hurting an oblique or breaking his hand because of a pointless at bat. Pitchers are far too valuable in their craft to worry about hitting. I'd much rather my pitchers be breaking down slow motion video of their mechanics or studying opposing hitters than practicing ground outs to second.

If you want the pitcher to hit, then it needs to be done in both leagues.
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Re: Tom Verducci "Bonus At Bat"

Unread postby pup » Fri Nov 08, 2013 10:14 am

Few more years, all you knuckleheads will have what you want.

Softball.

The game of baseball is beautiful because of strategy. Because of having to think ahead for future situations while considering the current one.

Let's double the rosters and have an offense and a defense! Hooray.
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Re: Tom Verducci "Bonus At Bat"

Unread postby motherscratcher » Fri Nov 08, 2013 10:56 am

leadpipe wrote:I like the pitcher hitting.

If you are a starting pitcher on this earth, you might have the most free time of anyone that has a "job." Put a little work into it.

I find it interesting that guys that are known for fanatical workout regiments in regard to their pitching craft, also somehow find time to handle the bat as well.

And I'm not a baseball purist. The games "unwritten rules" are generally dopey and Verducci's idea is ridiculous.


I thought you were the guy who liked to use your eyes? Despite the fact that you think pitchers "should" be able to handle the bat, what do your eyes tell you after watching them try to do it for the last 9 or 10 decades? Shoulda coulda woulda...they don't. Pitchers hitting sucks. Ortiz hitting doesn't suck.

And yeah, Verducci's idea is the dumbest thing since Cop Rock.
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Re: Tom Verducci "Bonus At Bat"

Unread postby skatingtripods » Fri Nov 08, 2013 11:31 am

pup wrote:The game of baseball is beautiful because of strategy. Because of having to think ahead for future situations while considering the current one.


Situations and strategies that involve numbers and statistics and sabermetrics.

Always knew you were a closet numbers guy.
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Re: Tom Verducci "Bonus At Bat"

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Fri Nov 08, 2013 12:01 pm

Pitchers are lower than pond scum. Robot pitchers, that's the future.
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Re: Tom Verducci "Bonus At Bat"

Unread postby leadpipe » Fri Nov 08, 2013 8:42 pm

skatingtripods wrote:Nothing like a pitcher hurting an oblique or breaking his hand because of a pointless at bat. Pitchers are far too valuable in their craft to worry about hitting. I'd much rather my pitchers be breaking down slow motion video of their mechanics or studying opposing hitters than practicing ground outs to second.

If you want the pitcher to hit, then it needs to be done in both leagues.


Adding 8 minutes to a starting pitchers work week will still give them about every other GD minute of the week to do the breakdowns - and learn how to help themselves and the team with the bat.

The both leagues deal is a valid one - and taking it further breaks down a main issue ILO, that is, the use of the DH from high school on. If there wwere no DH in the advanced ball they played coming up, you'd have a lot more pitchers that could hit. When you have guys that don't really need to pick up a bat from age 13 to the National League, you've got some sorry hitters.
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Re: Tom Verducci "Bonus At Bat"

Unread postby leadpipe » Fri Nov 08, 2013 8:49 pm

motherscratcher wrote:
leadpipe wrote:I like the pitcher hitting.

If you are a starting pitcher on this earth, you might have the most free time of anyone that has a "job." Put a little work into it.

I find it interesting that guys that are known for fanatical workout regiments in regard to their pitching craft, also somehow find time to handle the bat as well.

And I'm not a baseball purist. The games "unwritten rules" are generally dopey and Verducci's idea is ridiculous.


I thought you were the guy who liked to use your eyes? Despite the fact that you think pitchers "should" be able to handle the bat, what do your eyes tell you after watching them try to do it for the last 9 or 10 decades? Shoulda coulda woulda...they don't. Pitchers hitting sucks. Ortiz hitting doesn't suck.

And yeah, Verducci's idea is the dumbest thing since Cop Rock.


My eyes tell me that a shmuck like Greg Maddux can pay half attention in the off-season and do some things to help him win games while guys bigger, faster, stronger and better athletes go 0-40 cause they're lazy.

And again, my eyes tell me that it's no real suprise that your Hall of Fame level pitchers have been good with the bat relative to the position.

By the way, not a hot button topic for me, if you like the DH, that's great. I like the NL way. I'm probably the minority, but there's no point in me lying about it.

Lastly, we've been around pro/collegiate sports long enough, the reason the leagues are split on it is cause there's no monetary value one way or another. Trust me, if they could make more money by having the pitcher hit, David Ortiz would be in the river with the tea.
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Re: Tom Verducci "Bonus At Bat"

Unread postby peeker643 » Fri Nov 08, 2013 9:01 pm

leadpipe wrote:
skatingtripods wrote:Nothing like a pitcher hurting an oblique or breaking his hand because of a pointless at bat. Pitchers are far too valuable in their craft to worry about hitting. I'd much rather my pitchers be breaking down slow motion video of their mechanics or studying opposing hitters than practicing ground outs to second.

If you want the pitcher to hit, then it needs to be done in both leagues.


Adding 8 minutes to a starting pitchers work week will still give them about every other GD minute of the week to do the breakdowns - and learn how to help themselves and the team with the bat.

The both leagues deal is a valid one - and taking it further breaks down a main issue ILO, that is, the use of the DH from high school on. If there wwere no DH in the advanced ball they played coming up, you'd have a lot more pitchers that could hit. When you have guys that don't really need to pick up a bat from age 13 to the National League, you've got some sorry hitters.


Pitchers always hit in high school when I was in the lineup. ;-) ;) :wink:
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Re: Tom Verducci "Bonus At Bat"

Unread postby pup » Sat Nov 09, 2013 12:42 am

skatingtripods wrote:
pup wrote:The game of baseball is beautiful because of strategy. Because of having to think ahead for future situations while considering the current one.


Situations and strategies that involve numbers and statistics and sabermetrics.

Always knew you were a closet numbers guy.


There has been strategy a lot longer than nerds trying to figure out the strategy.

You know the worst coaches in football? The guys that need a spreadsheet to tell them when to go for 2.
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Re: Tom Verducci "Bonus At Bat"

Unread postby 7foot3 » Tue Nov 12, 2013 8:40 pm

leadpipe wrote:My eyes tell me that a shmuck like Greg Maddux can pay half attention in the off-season and do some things to help him win games while guys bigger, faster, stronger and better athletes go 0-40 cause they're lazy.

And again, my eyes tell me that it's no real suprise that your Hall of Fame level pitchers have been good with the bat relative to the position.

By the way, not a hot button topic for me, if you like the DH, that's great. I like the NL way. I'm probably the minority, but there's no point in me lying about it.

Lastly, we've been around pro/collegiate sports long enough, the reason the leagues are split on it is cause there's no monetary value one way or another. Trust me, if they could make more money by having the pitcher hit, David Ortiz would be in the river with the tea.


Greg Maddux of the career .171/.191/.205 line? Since the DH began, the best hitting pitcher (min 300 PA, only about half a season for a position player) has a 75 OPS+, kudos to the not-quite-HoFer Dontrelle Willis. In other words, one pitcher in the modern era has been able to outhit Alvaro Espinoza.

The median OPS for a HoF pitcher is a pitiful .458. We have to increase the sample size of PAs to look at the list of non-HOFers on BB-ref's play index (up to 610 PAs) to get the median for them, and it is .469. No HoFer topped a .700 OPS. Pitchers, regardless of pitching ability, just can't hit. Period.
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Re: Tom Verducci "Bonus At Bat"

Unread postby leadpipe » Tue Nov 12, 2013 9:53 pm

7foot3 wrote:
leadpipe wrote:My eyes tell me that a shmuck like Greg Maddux can pay half attention in the off-season and do some things to help him win games while guys bigger, faster, stronger and better athletes go 0-40 cause they're lazy.

And again, my eyes tell me that it's no real suprise that your Hall of Fame level pitchers have been good with the bat relative to the position.

By the way, not a hot button topic for me, if you like the DH, that's great. I like the NL way. I'm probably the minority, but there's no point in me lying about it.

Lastly, we've been around pro/collegiate sports long enough, the reason the leagues are split on it is cause there's no monetary value one way or another. Trust me, if they could make more money by having the pitcher hit, David Ortiz would be in the river with the tea.


Greg Maddux of the career .171/.191/.205 line? Since the DH began, the best hitting pitcher (min 300 PA, only about half a season for a position player) has a 75 OPS+, kudos to the not-quite-HoFer Dontrelle Willis. In other words, one pitcher in the modern era has been able to outhit Alvaro Espinoza.

The median OPS for a HoF pitcher is a pitiful .458. We have to increase the sample size of PAs to look at the list of non-HOFers on BB-ref's play index (up to 610 PAs) to get the median for them, and it is .469. No HoFer topped a .700 OPS. Pitchers, regardless of pitching ability, just can't hit. Period.


I'd be interested in the numbers before the DH began, simply for the curiosity of, A. How things might change when they KNEW they were gonna hit all year, every year and B. The fact there wasn't the "coddling" of million dollar babies that arose in the modern era.

Anyways, chief reason I like NL is from a strategy standpoint, not because I'm enchanted with the OPS' of the pitchers.

Again, if they voted tomorrow DH forever, I ain't missin' a bite of my lunch.
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Re: Tom Verducci "Bonus At Bat"

Unread postby 7foot3 » Thu Nov 14, 2013 9:07 pm

leadpipe wrote:I'd be interested in the numbers before the DH began, simply for the curiosity of, A. How things might change when they KNEW they were gonna hit all year, every year and B. The fact there wasn't the "coddling" of million dollar babies that arose in the modern era.

Anyways, chief reason I like NL is from a strategy standpoint, not because I'm enchanted with the OPS' of the pitchers.

Again, if they voted tomorrow DH forever, I ain't missin' a bite of my lunch.



The "coddling" was simply recognizing how many arms were being blown out before the kid could actually contribute to the major league team, it had nothing to do with the money.

And I did use DH only years, as there may have been a difference. I'll leave you to looking up the next set of facts.

And as has been already said here, I don't know what this extra strategy is. Walking the #8 hitter or performing a double switch is something a 13 year old can figure out how to on his xbox MLB2k13 game.
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Re: Tom Verducci "Bonus At Bat"

Unread postby pup » Thu Nov 14, 2013 10:19 pm

If each of those moves happened in a vacuum, sure the 13 year old can handle the mechanics of the move.

Fortunately for those that enjoy that side of the game those moves are each effected by a whole shit ton of factors, from the past, at the present and in the future.
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Re: Tom Verducci "Bonus At Bat"

Unread postby 7foot3 » Fri Nov 15, 2013 1:27 pm

pup wrote:If each of those moves happened in a vacuum, sure the 13 year old can handle the mechanics of the move.

Fortunately for those that enjoy that side of the game those moves are each effected by a whole shit ton of factors, from the past, at the present and in the future.


Yeah, I guess I can see how it can be difficult to figure out when to walk the #8 hitter when you think things like giving away free outs to the other team is a good idea.
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