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Concussions & the Future of Football

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Re: Not a peep on Martin here?

Unread postby Hikohadon » Thu Nov 07, 2013 2:35 pm

Worst concussion I ever had was in soccer. Two guys go up to head a ball, one heads it, the other heads the first guy's head.

Also got kicked in the face a couple times when playing goalie.
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Re: Not a peep on Martin here?

Unread postby FUDU » Thu Nov 07, 2013 2:44 pm

I'm not so sure googleeph was referring to JUST concussions. Lots of injury reasons to not want to pursue football.
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Re: Not a peep on Martin here?

Unread postby jb » Thu Nov 07, 2013 2:48 pm

peeker643 wrote:
You want a fall sport without concussions then play golf .....



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Re: Not a peep on Martin here?

Unread postby jb » Thu Nov 07, 2013 2:48 pm

Hikohadon wrote:Also got kicked in the face a couple times when playing goalie.



Wsa the ball nearby or were you just bein you?

;-) ;) :wink:
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Re: Not a peep on Martin here?

Unread postby Hikohadon » Thu Nov 07, 2013 3:01 pm

jb wrote:
Hikohadon wrote:Also got kicked in the face a couple times when playing goalie.



Wsa the ball nearby or were you just bein you?

;-) ;) :wink:


Probably a bit of both.

Only got kicked in the face on purpose once that I know of, and that's because I was a stupid American.
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Re: Not a peep on Martin here?

Unread postby Hikohadon » Thu Nov 07, 2013 3:04 pm

FUDU wrote:I'm not so sure googleeph was referring to JUST concussions. Lots of injury reasons to not want to pursue football.


I'm sure the vast majority of the reserve is due to concussion/spinal injury worries. You can fuck up your knees/legs/shoulders/elbows in any sport.
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Re: Not a peep on Martin here?

Unread postby peeker643 » Thu Nov 07, 2013 3:11 pm

FUDU wrote:I'm not so sure googleeph was referring to JUST concussions. Lots of injury reasons to not want to pursue football.


Really? Like specifically what football-only kind of injuries?

Like MCLs, and ACLs and ankles and achilles? Or is there another football specific injury you're talking about?

Because the numbers and studies are there and football is less a concern in terms of ACLs/MCLs than girls volleyball and basketball. In terms of concussions it's matched (if not overtaken by soccer) and boys ice hockey.

So, if you're talking concussions then just kill all football, boys and girls soccer, boys ice hockey, lacrosse/field hockey along with football.

And if you're talking knees and ankles then just kill all sports and be done with it.

Because if it's a matter of liability carriers getting spooked then all these sports need to go.
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Re: Not a peep on Martin here?

Unread postby peeker643 » Thu Nov 07, 2013 3:18 pm

And how'd we make a left trun off Incognito and Martin to here?

This topic ahould have its own thread if it doesn't already.
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Concussions & the Future of Football

Unread postby peeker643 » Thu Nov 07, 2013 3:20 pm

Needed a thread as a clearinghouse on the subject.
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Re: Not a peep on Martin here?

Unread postby danwismar » Thu Nov 07, 2013 3:25 pm

But since we're here...I'm curious what Peeker the insurance guy has to say about the possibility I floated above....that all the injuries and lawsuits against school systems and school boards may eventually cause insurance companies to refuse liability coverage for school systems,(or make the premiums prohibitively high.) School systems in turn would not be able or willing to self-insure, putting taxpayers on the hook...and so H.S. football would go the way of the Dodo.

Is this a misplaced concern?
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Re: Not a peep on Martin here?

Unread postby peeker643 » Thu Nov 07, 2013 3:42 pm

danwismar wrote:But since we're here...I'm curious what Peeker the insurance guy has to say about the possibility I floated above....that all the injuries and lawsuits against school systems and school boards may eventually cause insurance companies to refuse liability coverage for school systems,(or make the premiums prohibitively high.) School systems in turn would not be able or willing to self-insure, putting taxpayers on the hook...and so H.S. football would go the way of the Dodo.

Is this a misplaced concern?


I don't think it's a misplaced concern, no. I mean, look how many communities have already gone pay to play to defer other costs associated with sports. And I think that's what would/will happen first.

I think costs will initially be shared between Pee Wee kids and medical insurers whereby a cognitive baseline is probably established. Then I think at every, single level kids will likely be required to buy their own equipment. Best way to avoid a lawsuit is to not be the guy who handed out that helmet. It'll be put on each kid/family for the entirety of their amatuer (through high school) career.

There will be the baselines and the old 'physicals' where someone grabbed your balls and had you cough will be a bit more detailed. Like annual cognitive testing/relation to baseline. Kids with too much divergence will not be permitted to play.

Schools/conferences will have doctors on site and the decisions on returning to games will be taken out of coach's hands ( http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/06/sport ... sions.html ).

Likewise, kids will have to get a release as they do now for return to play after a concussion/head injury from a PERSONAL physician (keep that school doc's nose out of the potential lawsuit).

My 15 yr old volleyball player had a teammate this season who had a concussion after hitting the floor. Ended her season midway through as a senior. Couldn't pass the test to get back. For senior night she wanted to serve first service and play one point.

Nope.

The school made her doctor sign off, had her doctor attend the game, she served once and had to stand behind the service line and watch the point play out.

Schools are getting it. Football is behind because of the mentaility but that's got to change and the risk managers who run school districts now are starting to see that.

But the cost and the onus will go to the individual player so that the school provides as little as possible.

You think Lacrosse and hockey are expensive? Wait'll people see football as it goes forward.
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Re: Concussions & the Future of Football

Unread postby peeker643 » Thu Nov 07, 2013 4:33 pm

Not concussion-specific, but interesting and at least somehat health-motivated (it appears).


http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1839 ... &hpt=hp_t2
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Re: Concussions & the Future of Football

Unread postby peeker643 » Thu Nov 07, 2013 4:38 pm

Just saw this today on Tony D, Joe D and Leonard Marshall and CTE:

http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/ ... oncussions
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Re: Concussions & the Future of Football

Unread postby googleeph2 » Thu Nov 07, 2013 5:51 pm

Not disagreeing, but I wonder how long it will be before a league gets sued and is able to have success in saying, "Sorry you have ongoing physical problems. We took every precaution, and are further insulated by (it was your equipment, etc. etc.). Let's talk about your childhood in general. Have you ever fallen/had a bicycle accident/etc. outside of your association with this sport? Exactly what type of physical care did you receive?" Causing doubt as to the source of the problems.

And if I were an NFL team, I'd look at Moffitt and try as hard as possible to make contracts bonus-heavy, making repayment necessary if the player quits.
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Re: Concussions & the Future of Football

Unread postby Erie Warrior » Thu Nov 07, 2013 7:38 pm

Competition cheer is perhaps an ADs worst nightmare for concussions. I had nearly as many cheerleaders go down with concussions as football players.

Toss a 100lb girl 20 feet in the air and pray they catch her. And if they do, there's a good chance the girls on the bottom are going to get an elbow or knee to the face.
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Re: Concussions & the Future of Football

Unread postby peeker643 » Fri Nov 08, 2013 5:13 am

googleeph2 wrote:Not disagreeing, but I wonder how long it will be before a league gets sued and is able to have success in saying, "Sorry you have ongoing physical problems. We took every precaution, and are further insulated by (it was your equipment, etc. etc.). Let's talk about your childhood in general. Have you ever fallen/had a bicycle accident/etc. outside of your association with this sport? Exactly what type of physical care did you receive?" Causing doubt as to the source of the problems.

And if I were an NFL team, I'd look at Moffitt and try as hard as possible to make contracts bonus-heavy, making repayment necessary if the player quits.


I don't think you need to wonder. The NFL "won" by paying out less than $800million on claims worth probably 20 times that because of that very defense. None of those plaintiffs could prove their issues weren't the result of elementary school, high school, college or Pop Warner collisions.

But wait til Tim Misny starts sending 6-yr olds to neurologists and establishing those baselines.

I know where you work, Greg. So not many here understand as well as you do: the price to obtain a defense verdict on one (much less many) of these files that go into litigation can sometimes be higher than the verdict itself.

You may win. You still lose. And if you lose, you lose twice and you lose huge. There's ridiculous risk on any of these suits like this right now.

Multiply that by X number of suits. And then see what an entity's appetite for such risk actually is. Particularly when that entity is a school or school district that can no longer provide books, buses and a full days' worth of classes to kids because they have no money. What about when that entity is a local Pop Warner League with less money than the school district?

I'm saying that in 25-30 years it's quite possible the NFL as you know it doesn't exist. Mostly because the feeder systems (youth leagues, high school) have been priced right out of the game.

I know, I know. Too big to fail.

Like the world's biggest banks.
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Re: Concussions & the Future of Football

Unread postby jb » Fri Nov 08, 2013 11:38 am

peeker643 wrote:
googleeph2 wrote:Not disagreeing, but I wonder how long it will be before a league gets sued and is able to have success in saying, "Sorry you have ongoing physical problems. We took every precaution, and are further insulated by (it was your equipment, etc. etc.). Let's talk about your childhood in general. Have you ever fallen/had a bicycle accident/etc. outside of your association with this sport? Exactly what type of physical care did you receive?" Causing doubt as to the source of the problems.

And if I were an NFL team, I'd look at Moffitt and try as hard as possible to make contracts bonus-heavy, making repayment necessary if the player quits.


I don't think you need to wonder. The NFL "won" by paying out less than $800million on claims worth probably 20 times that because of that very defense. None of those plaintiffs could prove their issues weren't the result of elementary school, high school, college or Pop Warner collisions.

But wait til Tim Misny starts sending 6-yr olds to neurologists and establishing those baselines.

I know where you work, Greg. So not many here understand as well as you do: the price to obtain a defense verdict on one (much less many) of these files that go into litigation can sometimes be higher than the verdict itself.

You may win. You still lose. And if you lose, you lose twice and you lose huge. There's ridiculous risk on any of these suits like this right now.

Multiply that by X number of suits. And then see what an entity's appetite for such risk actually is. Particularly when that entity is a school or school district that can no longer provide books, buses and a full days' worth of classes to kids because they have no money. What about when that entity is a local Pop Warner League with less money than the school district?

I'm saying that in 25-30 years it's quite possible the NFL as you know it doesn't exist. Mostly because the feeder systems (youth leagues, high school) have been priced right out of the game.

I know, I know. Too big to fail.

Like the world's biggest banks.



You're such a knowitall.

What are you, some INSURANCE industry expert of something?
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Re: Concussions & the Future of Football

Unread postby justmebd » Fri Nov 08, 2013 11:47 am

I know booze, which can cause concussions. Do I get to join a class action lawsuit?

On a side note, I also know tabletop RPGs, which can lead to fistfights, which can lead to concussions.

I'm apparently a guy who lives on the edge.
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Re: Concussions & the Future of Football

Unread postby googleeph2 » Fri Nov 08, 2013 12:46 pm

Erie Warrior wrote:Competition cheer is perhaps an ADs worst nightmare for concussions. I had nearly as many cheerleaders go down with concussions as football players.

Toss a 100lb girl 20 feet in the air and pray they catch her. And if they do, there's a good chance the girls on the bottom are going to get an elbow or knee to the face.


Oh man you are not kidding. We went through 11 years with 2 daughters getting thrown up in the air as if from a trampoline, doing a pose or a move up in the air, and coming down and being caught without looking. My wife watched recordings seconds later, but usually turned away live. We tried not to think about practices, when we weren't there. To me, football cheering was the worst. All that grass out there, and they are doing that stuff on the 6-lane track.
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