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Baltimore @ Cleveland - Welcome back Weeden edition

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Re: Baltimore @ Cleveland - Welcome back Weeden edition

Unread postby Hikohadon » Tue Nov 05, 2013 12:52 pm

jb wrote:
Hikohadon wrote: - the lessons of 2007/2008 are not forgotten.


I think this is a great point.

Common factors to flash in the pan season?

Easy Schedule

Differences?

07 we caught damn near every break imaginable except that bad OOB call on Souljah.

07 was a quick team band aided on vets after Savage got fired for the first time. It was 3 seasons into Opie.

This is a very young team where it matters. There are many young, developed players stepping up. The FA's are in prime.

This sucka is built to last.


You almost got me there. Sometimes it's hard to tell when you're kidding.
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Re: Baltimore @ Cleveland - Welcome back Weeden edition

Unread postby jb » Tue Nov 05, 2013 1:00 pm

Hikohadon wrote:
jb wrote:
Hikohadon wrote: - the lessons of 2007/2008 are not forgotten.


I think this is a great point.

Common factors to flash in the pan season?

Easy Schedule

Differences?

07 we caught damn near every break imaginable except that bad OOB call on Souljah.

07 was a quick team band aided on vets after Savage got fired for the first time. It was 3 seasons into Opie.

This is a very young team where it matters. There are many young, developed players stepping up. The FA's are in prime.

This sucka is built to last.


You almost got me there. Sometimes it's hard to tell when you're kidding.



Christ. You're so intrasigent its like you morphed into peeker's on line doppleganger.

What is the wide wide world of sports is going on here?
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Re: Baltimore @ Cleveland - Welcome back Weeden edition

Unread postby Hikohadon » Tue Nov 05, 2013 1:10 pm

jb wrote:
Hikohadon wrote:
jb wrote:
Hikohadon wrote: - the lessons of 2007/2008 are not forgotten.


I think this is a great point.

Common factors to flash in the pan season?

Easy Schedule

Differences?

07 we caught damn near every break imaginable except that bad OOB call on Souljah.

07 was a quick team band aided on vets after Savage got fired for the first time. It was 3 seasons into Opie.

This is a very young team where it matters. There are many young, developed players stepping up. The FA's are in prime.

This sucka is built to last.


You almost got me there. Sometimes it's hard to tell when you're kidding.



Christ. You're so intrasigent its like you morphed into peeker's on line doppleganger.

What is the wide wide world of sports is going on here?


Ha! True. Acting especially bitchy today.

I just don't know how y'all don't employ a higher degree of emotional caution when y'all have seen/felt this way about the team before (many times).

I know, I know, things are different this time. :woot:

Again, I personally will wait a sight longer before I proclaim that this team has turned any corner - like well into next season. I felt that 2007/DA was a bit of a sham even when it was happening, but I can safely say I didn't expect 2008.

And that 2008 somehow lasted until NOW.

I see the same things you guys do, but I've thought I saw them many other times before now as well, and whether y'all recognize it or not you have too. So I will wait for the results that I think might happen to happen before I get excited.

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Re: Baltimore @ Cleveland - Welcome back Weeden edition

Unread postby Love child of shawn kemp » Tue Nov 05, 2013 1:11 pm

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Re: Baltimore @ Cleveland - Welcome back Weeden edition

Unread postby FUDU » Tue Nov 05, 2013 1:15 pm

Do you consider this season's schedule hard?

...and seriously give up on the Winslow OOB call, it's been 6 years, the correct call was enforced.

Again, I'm in agreement almost all the way with what you two are saying, but I'm just suggesting it wasn't a real difficult corner to turn, seeing as it's Jason Campbell, I mean Jason F'n Campbell has turned this team into a viable roadblock for the majority of our opponents.

I actually give credit to the HC for making sure he saw enough of Weeden this year to know he'd dumping an incapable asset. Not sure he should have waited as long as he apparently was going to (considering the injury is the only reason Hoyer was called upon), but Chud did his diligence I guess.

Now we know, and knowledge is 4-5!!!
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Re: Baltimore @ Cleveland - Welcome back Weeden edition

Unread postby HoodooMan » Tue Nov 05, 2013 1:19 pm

Hikohadon wrote:I just don't know how y'all don't employ a higher degree of emotional caution when y'all have seen/felt this way about the team before (many times).


I hate to go all Tracy McGrady here, but we haven't seen a regime get 7+ wins in its first season since Butch Davis in 2001.

:shrug
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Re: Baltimore @ Cleveland - Welcome back Weeden edition

Unread postby Hikohadon » Tue Nov 05, 2013 1:21 pm

HoodooMan wrote:
Hikohadon wrote:I just don't know how y'all don't employ a higher degree of emotional caution when y'all have seen/felt this way about the team before (many times).


I hate to go all Tracy McGrady here, but we haven't seen a regime get 7+ wins in its first season since Butch Davis in 2001.

:shrug


Yeah, and that ended so well.

If we have gotten to the point where a Butch Davis-type run is exciting, I'm not the one who's beaten down.
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Re: Baltimore @ Cleveland - Welcome back Weeden edition

Unread postby HoodooMan » Tue Nov 05, 2013 1:23 pm

Hikohadon wrote:
HoodooMan wrote:
Hikohadon wrote:I just don't know how y'all don't employ a higher degree of emotional caution when y'all have seen/felt this way about the team before (many times).


I hate to go all Tracy McGrady here, but we haven't seen a regime get 7+ wins in its first season since Butch Davis in 2001.

:shrug


Yeah, and that ended so well.

If we have gotten to the point where a Butch Davis-type run is exciting, I'm not the one who's beaten down.


Cynicism for cynicism's sake.
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...doesn't mean we cannot call you a spade when you are one. (donnyunitas, 10/21/09)

Plus it's kinda personal for me... I have a lot of family and friends who are Ducks... (angrybeaver, 11/08/09)
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Re: Baltimore @ Cleveland - Welcome back Weeden edition

Unread postby Hikohadon » Tue Nov 05, 2013 1:37 pm

Cynicism is a good guy, I do a lot for his sake.

With Butch, there was excitement since you had improvement and you thought it could be sustained through quality coaching and a "franchise" QB (Couch). And it didn't happen.

Now, we don't even have a "franchise" QB with which we can say "Yes, I feel confident that they can not only sustain the 7 to 8 win success, but improve upon it to the level where this is a viable championship team in the next 2 to 3 years."

What we've got right now is AT BEST the Bengals - the kind of team that can maybe make the playoffs every few years and then promptly lose meekly.

You look at Cincy as an example of a way to pull a team out of a decade-long doldrum. I look at Cincy as an example of a team that is just good enough to never be great, whose window will close in a few years with really nothing to show for it other than "Hey, at least we didn't totally suck." In 5 years, people will forget that they even made the playoffs.

I am so NOT interested in being the Bengals. That team is flat Wal-Mart (if Wal-Mart can be used as adjective). And being Wal-Mart is the VERY BEST we could expect from this team as currently comprised. Most likely, they'll end up Dollar Store.
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Re: Baltimore @ Cleveland - Welcome back Weeden edition

Unread postby peeker643 » Tue Nov 05, 2013 1:55 pm

Not even talking wins, per se.

Look at the defense and look at the depth. Talent and depth beget more wins. What you're seeing isn't an accident. It's not by any means enough, but if you can't see talent, depth and actual improvement then you ain't looking or looking at it right.

If that's meh then so be it. I'm not saying it's orgasmic. I'm just saying it's there.
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Re: Baltimore @ Cleveland - Welcome back Weeden edition

Unread postby HoodooMan » Tue Nov 05, 2013 2:04 pm

You're not making any sense. You're really just cynically wallowing in suck, as far as I can tell.

"We've seen this many times before"

We haven't.

"But the one time we did, it didn't end well."

OK.

I'm telling you that I think winning right away is a necessary step to snapping out of a historic run of suck. That's how the Bengals finally did it with Marvin Lewis. That's how the Bucs finally did it with Dungy. (He didn't quite get to 7 wins in his first year; he got 6--the most for a first year HC in TB history at that time--and he had them in the playoffs in his second year.) If you have a good counter-example, please share.

ETA: and while 7 wins in 2001 was awesome and all, and made for a great feeling after Palmer's two years, and made for a lot of optimism surrounding Butch Davis, 7 wins in 2013, after a historic run of suck, means more, IMO. To the point where it's something different entirely. Does it end up working out so that we're contenders for a SB in a few years? F if I know. But it's a necessary first step, and it's nice to see it happening.
Last edited by HoodooMan on Tue Nov 05, 2013 2:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Q: What is the best/craziest location you've ever gotten lucky A: Mens room. Death Valley. (Fire Marshall Bill, 08/13/10)

...doesn't mean we cannot call you a spade when you are one. (donnyunitas, 10/21/09)

Plus it's kinda personal for me... I have a lot of family and friends who are Ducks... (angrybeaver, 11/08/09)
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Re: Baltimore @ Cleveland - Welcome back Weeden edition

Unread postby Madre Hill, Superstar » Tue Nov 05, 2013 2:11 pm

To summarize Hiko's posts:

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Re: Baltimore @ Cleveland - Welcome back Weeden edition

Unread postby FUDU » Tue Nov 05, 2013 2:14 pm

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Re: Baltimore @ Cleveland - Welcome back Weeden edition

Unread postby peeker643 » Tue Nov 05, 2013 2:19 pm

Just don't ask me, JB or HooDoo for playoff tickets, Hiko.

You're out.

The three out four dentists who recommend Crest don't hang out with the one who still thinks Closeup is the right choice.

Sorry. Nothing personal.

And that playoff get together is going to be epic. Boozy broads with low moral character... on a tour bus... with open bar... pig roast... all the weed and blow you can survive... Winger playing in the parking lot...whole 9 yards.

Missing out, dude.

You just stay in your dark, smoky room, listening to The Wall and looking at your '86 Media Guide.

;-) ;) :wink: ;-) ;) :wink:
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Re: Baltimore @ Cleveland - Welcome back Weeden edition

Unread postby jb » Tue Nov 05, 2013 2:42 pm

FUDU wrote:Do you consider this season's schedule hard?

...and seriously give up on the Winslow OOB call, it's been 6 years, the correct call was enforced.

Again, I'm in agreement almost all the way with what you two are saying, but I'm just suggesting it wasn't a real difficult corner to turn, seeing as it's Jason Campbell, I mean Jason F'n Campbell has turned this team into a viable roadblock for the majority of our opponents.



I don't groc.

I just dont think JC is a "bad" QB. Thought he was young in DC. Thought he was playing well before we snapped his collebone. Though the was in like 1 game in Chicago & blew.

I think he's serviceable until we do better.
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Re: Baltimore @ Cleveland - Welcome back Weeden edition

Unread postby jb » Tue Nov 05, 2013 2:44 pm

peeker643 wrote:Not even talking wins, per se.

Look at the defense and look at the depth. Talent and depth beget more wins. What you're seeing isn't an accident. It's not by any means enough, but if you can't see talent, depth and actual improvement then you ain't looking or looking at it right.

If that's meh then so be it. I'm not saying it's orgasmic. I'm just saying it's there.


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Re: Baltimore @ Cleveland - Welcome back Weeden edition

Unread postby Hikohadon » Tue Nov 05, 2013 2:46 pm

HoodooMan wrote:You're not making any sense. You're really just cynically wallowing in suck, as far as I can tell.


I see it as not being reactionary, but que sera sera.

HoodooMan wrote:"We've seen this many times before"

We haven't.


Oh, that's right! This Time Is Different!*

*Never said before since The Return.

HoodooMan wrote:I'm telling you that I think winning right away is a necessary step to snapping out of a historic run of suck. That's how the Bengals finally did it with Marvin Lewis. That's how the Bucs finally did it with Dungy. (He didn't quite get to 7 wins in his first year; he got 6--the most for a first year HC in TB history at that time--and he had them in the playoffs in his second year.) If you have a good counter-example, please share.


Of course there are teams that went from 7 wins to glory and of course most teams need to build-it-to-get-there. There are also countless teams that went from 7 wins to 7 wins, or 7 wins to poo. 7 or 8 wins might be nice in the locker room, but it means very little long term. What matters long term is talent, and they're gonna need plenty more of that for me to feel like THIS team can turn into something good long term, especially if we have to go the "eke into the playoffs and hope your game manager QB gets on a historic hot streak or hope your Defense is historically dominant" route because we have a mediocre QB (AKA The High Road or The Road Less Traveled).

Hence, my wariness to get excited. This team (as currently comprised) that might go 7-9 or 8-8 could just as easily turn into a Butch Davis/Romeo Crennell disaster as turn into a real contender.

I desperately hope they have a great offseason and I can walk into TC in 2015/2016 with LEGITIMATE hope for a championship season, but I'll wait til it actually fuckin' happens.

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Re: Baltimore @ Cleveland - Welcome back Weeden edition

Unread postby HoodooMan » Tue Nov 05, 2013 3:25 pm

So you have no counter-examples, yet still prefer to continue wallowing.

OK.

I'm not saying I'm doing cartwheels because I just know in my wee little heart that Joey Bannaz & Chud are going to lead us to the promised land. I'm simply saying we're on the right path. And that the "one more 3-4 win season for a franchise QB" path was always going to be the wrong one.

But, eh, wallow on.
Q: What is the best/craziest location you've ever gotten lucky A: Mens room. Death Valley. (Fire Marshall Bill, 08/13/10)

...doesn't mean we cannot call you a spade when you are one. (donnyunitas, 10/21/09)

Plus it's kinda personal for me... I have a lot of family and friends who are Ducks... (angrybeaver, 11/08/09)
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Re: Baltimore @ Cleveland - Welcome back Weeden edition

Unread postby mattvan1 » Tue Nov 05, 2013 3:50 pm

jb wrote:
mattvan1 wrote:
jb wrote:You don't go from abject hopeless rudderless suck to the 85 Bears overnight, but there is a path to get there.

For some y'all to miss out on understanding the path and enjoying the journey is a damn shame for y'all.


What is there to understand? Seriously, not picking a fight. The only path I see is pretty much the only one that exists.

(competent management) + (competent coaching) + (average to above average talent) + ( barely marginal QB play) = meh.

Don't get me wrong - I enjoy watching real football. Yesterday's game was actually fun. But just remember what Morpheus said to Neo - sooner or later you're going to realize just as I did that there's a difference between knowing the path and walking the path



Did you really just drop a Matrix take on me?

My disillusion is strong.

If you don't want to believe your Lyin eyes think about this.

Last time a Browns D was in the top 10 in the 2nd half of the season was?

Last time we beat the division leaders & 2nd place team was?

Last time we were in the top half of the division 9 games in was?

Last time the D led the NFL in yards per play was?

You can call JCs QB play meh. Well, the Rats were giving up 16 pts a game the last several games leading in. JC put TDs on the board with the likes of Bess & Little. SOMEONE has to get the credit. It's either them or him. They won with RBs that should be working at Lowes. They essentially ran out the last 6 minutes to close out. SOMEONE is doing SOMETHING more than meh. Of anyone thinks a rook is playing better at that level not named Teddy or Marcus they spliefted.

It's happening right before our eyes right now. But ehrone be all harrumph grumble grumble.

This is now a bona fide NFL team. After a half decade of 4-12 s and unwatchable football it is what it is.

Bus load of cap room, 5 picks in the first 3 rounds. Young players stepping up. Hard caught division wins. A D that was strong, exposed, and adjusted back to strong.

The journey is well underway.

You can be Ferris or Cam but don't look now but we're the sausage kings of Chicago and all logical, realistic signs point to it getting better.


We are in complete agreement that "it's happening right before our eyes". And I, for one, am cautiously optimistic. I just don't see any mythical Banner formula for success. It's "building an org 101". Just basic stuff. Except its 14 years delayed.

So when your journey down the path begins more than a decade after it was scheduled, I just can't get all warm and fuzzy after the first couple of steps.
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Re: Baltimore @ Cleveland - Welcome back Weeden edition

Unread postby Hikohadon » Tue Nov 05, 2013 3:54 pm

HoodooMan wrote:So you have no counter-examples, yet still prefer to continue wallowing.

OK.

I'm not saying I'm doing cartwheels because I just know in my wee little heart that Joey Bannaz & Chud are going to lead us to the promised land. I'm simply saying we're on the right path. And that the "one more 3-4 win season for a franchise QB" path was always going to be the wrong one.

But, eh, wallow on.


Counter-examples of what?

Teams that went from 3 wins to 13? I'm sure there are some. Not nearly as many as teams that go from 7 wins to 13, I'm sure, but who cares since I already conceded that it's easier to get to 13 from 7.

I just don't think THIS team will be going to 13 wins (or 11) from 3 or 5 or 7 as currently comprised, and they'd better have a helluva offseason for that to change for me. Hell, if they win 7 this year and 9 next, I'll jump right on the wagon witcha.

And you make it sound like just last year 3 rookies didn't take previously bad teams to the playoffs, but I don't give a shit about going from 3 to 13. I care about actually getting to 13.

I CARE ABOUT WINNING A SUPER BOWL.

That's it. That's all.

So, fuck yes, I'd gladly sacrifice this season and next season for a QB that gives us more long-term opportunities to accomplish that rather than become the Bengals just so we can be mildly entertained on Sundays and the locker room can get off their depression meds. But we're not talking about that. We're talking about how this team is a long way off and how I'm reserving caution on it until I am better convinced that it is truly "headed in the right direction".

Because this team/coaching staff/FO is 4-5 after only 9 games and has accomplished nothing that the teams before them haven't accomplished at one point or another. If you think they have, we need to stop this conversation because it's useless.

Man, I don't know why y'all is all bitchy about me not dancing around the maypole with ya. I'm sorry, I apologize, I've just done the optimism thing before, and I'm way too tired these days to muster up the necessary delusion.
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Re: Baltimore @ Cleveland - Welcome back Weeden edition

Unread postby peeker643 » Tue Nov 05, 2013 4:24 pm

^^^^

I blame Weeden.

He killed Dancing Hiko.

Killed him deader than a Kennedy.

Fucking Weeden. It was bad enough that he was an incompetent, dumb, slow, unathletic hayseed, 30-yr old asshole when they reached for his wrinkled, inaccurate, no touch, no balls, no brains ass on draft night, but killing Hiko's spirit is the last straw.

May Weeden rot in hell for that crime only.
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Re: Baltimore @ Cleveland - Welcome back Weeden edition

Unread postby HoodooMan » Tue Nov 05, 2013 4:24 pm

Hikohadon wrote:Man, I don't know why y'all is all bitchy about me not dancing around the maypole with ya.


Because empty cynicism is at least as annoying as empty optimism.

But hey, I found you a counter-example. If you need to ask "for what," you could always just go back and read what I've already written.

A quick run through pro football reference yields what IMO are the kinds of historical runs of suck we've been mired in:

The first 19 years of the Saints organization, the first 20 years of the Bucs organization, the 91-02 Bengals, and I'd also count the 90-06 Cards along with the current Raiders (going back 10 years) & Browns (going back 14). And then you have the 01-10 Lions.

-The Saints finally snapped their run of ineptitude with their hiring of Mora, who won 7 games his first year there.

-The Bucs finally snapped their run of ineptitude with their hiring of Dungy, who won 6 games his first year there (as noted above, a franchise record at the time, and he went 10-6 and to the playoffs in his 2nd season)

-The Bengals finally snapped their run of ineptitude with their hiring of Lewis, who won 8 games his first year there.

-The Cards finally snapped their run of ineptitude with their hiring of Whisenhunt, who won 8 games his first year there.

Those were historically-bad organizations that finally extracted themselves from the stench of their own histories by hiring a HC who won right away and in doing so at least graduated from "Ugh, the ____s" to just-another-teamhood. Culture Change! Maybe Chud joins them, maybe he doesn't. But someone is going to need to do it at some point, and it might very well be him.

[The Lions were a nightmare for 10 years (the shortest span of any team in that group if you include them) and sucked their way into Stafford & Suh before graduating to just-another-teamhood in 2011 in Schwartz's 3rd year there. So there's your exception, if you want it.]
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...doesn't mean we cannot call you a spade when you are one. (donnyunitas, 10/21/09)

Plus it's kinda personal for me... I have a lot of family and friends who are Ducks... (angrybeaver, 11/08/09)
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Re: Baltimore @ Cleveland - Welcome back Weeden edition

Unread postby Hikohadon » Tue Nov 05, 2013 5:07 pm

Yeah, no way was I doing the research to prove a point I don't even care about.

None of what you say do I disagree with, other than I don't feel that this culture IS changed yet and likely won't feel that way no matter what this season brings (outside of a playoff appearance). I want to see what the offseason brings, and the resultant play of the 2014 team before I buy the package. This team is more than capable of losing the next 3 to go 4-8 and then suddenly the culture done spoiled.

They finish this season semi-strong (not a tall order with the Steelers at historic suck levels) and have a strong offseason and start 2014 off well, then I'll probably feel that the worm has indeed turned.

Which probably won't assuage my fear that they'll just be another one of those teams that's ah-ight for a couple years before dying due to their QB sitch, but that truly is just empty cynicism. My current cynicism is half-full (see what I did there?).

PS - Just checking the Cards and not going back too far... Buddy Ryan, 8-8 in first year (1994), didn't stop the Culture of Suck. Vince Tobin, 7-9 first year (1996), didn't stop the Culture of Suck. Dave McGinnis, 7-9 first year (2001), didn't stop the Culture of Suck. Dennis Green, 6-10 (not 7-9, but close) first year (2004), didn't stop the Culture of Suck...
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Re: Baltimore @ Cleveland - Welcome back Weeden edition

Unread postby Nicastro13 » Tue Nov 05, 2013 5:59 pm

peeker643 wrote:Just don't ask me, JB or HooDoo for playoff tickets, Hiko.

You're out.

The three out four dentists who recommend Crest don't hang out with the one who still thinks Closeup is the right choice.

Sorry. Nothing personal.

And that playoff get together is going to be epic. Boozy broads with low moral character... on a tour bus... with open bar... pig roast... all the weed and blow you can survive... Winger playing in the parking lot...whole 9 yards.

Missing out, dude.

You just stay in your dark, smoky room, listening to The Wall and looking at your '86 Media Guide.

;-) ;) :wink: ;-) ;) :wink:




So is this gonna be an invite only, or will it be open to the public???? I'll gladly pay the cover charge!!!
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Re: Baltimore @ Cleveland - Welcome back Weeden edition

Unread postby HoodooMan » Tue Nov 05, 2013 6:13 pm

Hikohadon wrote:PS - Just checking the Cards and not going back too far... Buddy Ryan, 8-8 in first year (1994), didn't stop the Culture of Suck. Vince Tobin, 7-9 first year (1996), didn't stop the Culture of Suck. Dave McGinnis, 7-9 first year (2001), didn't stop the Culture of Suck. Dennis Green, 6-10 (not 7-9, but close) first year (2004), didn't stop the Culture of Suck...


True, the engine making the right noise when you hit the start button doesn't prevent you from running off the road once you get going. But it sure beats hearing groans and pphtflppts for the Nth time.
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Plus it's kinda personal for me... I have a lot of family and friends who are Ducks... (angrybeaver, 11/08/09)
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Re: Baltimore @ Cleveland - Welcome back Weeden edition

Unread postby bac5665 » Tue Nov 05, 2013 7:03 pm

This next game against the Bungles is a huge test for the culture change of this team. If we win, it sets us up for the rest of the schedule. If we lose, we'll have to work hard to get to 8-8.

If Chud wins this next game (in two weeks) I'll have bought in. And I would think even Hiko would have to take notice of our being in the hunt not just for a WC but for the division still at week 11.

But if we lose, we'll be two games under 500 and out of the playoff hunt heading into NE. That's a sequence that can kill our newfound confidence.
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Re: Baltimore @ Cleveland - Welcome back Weeden edition

Unread postby motherscratcher » Tue Nov 05, 2013 8:57 pm

Hiko = Art

According to my sources CDT farts in the tub and bites the bubbles.
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Re: Baltimore @ Cleveland - Welcome back Weeden edition

Unread postby motherscratcher » Tue Nov 05, 2013 9:16 pm

I can't help but be optimistic with this team. Back in 2007 it did seem like a lot of smoke and mirrors, and it caught up with them at the end of the season. And despite the yahoos in Berea chanting Superbowl in 2008 spring training, I never really bought into that team.

But, this time it's different! ;-) ;) :wink:

This team feels like they are a legitimately good team that doesn't have to be as lucky going forward. And I'm not sure why Campbell/Hoyer couldn't catch the Flacco/Eli fire if put in that position while surrounded by a team with enough talent (which I know we aren't...yet). I understand that it's the tougher road to hoe, but I'm not seeing an alternative. We aren't, and won't for the forseeable future, be picking at the top of the draft in order to pick the stud-du-jour.

So, no matter what, it's Campbell/Hoyer and a project. But I'm going to enjoy the competence while it's here and hope/expect better in the future.
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Re: Baltimore @ Cleveland - Welcome back Weeden edition

Unread postby jerryroche » Tue Nov 05, 2013 10:20 pm

motherscratcher wrote:I can't help but be optimistic with this team. I'm going to enjoy the competence while it's here and hope/expect better in the future.

Fully agree with mother. Will be watching the rest of the season, guardedly hoping for the best, say 8-8. But there's a long history restraining me from going back to being the wigged-out groupie I once was.

This team is one or two players from having a Top 3 defense and maybe two or three players from having an offense that can put enough points on the board and control the ball long enough to win most of its games -- and that includes playoff games.

Except for dumping Phil Dawson and choosing WeDone over Hoyer and Campbell, the current regime has made some damned good personnel decisions. (And even Cundiff hasn't FUBARed the kicking game--yet.) So at least there's a light at the end of the tunnel that hasn't existed since way before the crazy, mixed-up, sorry-ass seasons lost to Crennel, Mangini and Shurmur.
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Re: Baltimore @ Cleveland - Welcome back Weeden edition

Unread postby jb » Wed Nov 06, 2013 9:37 am

mattvan1 wrote:
jb wrote:
mattvan1 wrote:
jb wrote:You don't go from abject hopeless rudderless suck to the 85 Bears overnight, but there is a path to get there.

For some y'all to miss out on understanding the path and enjoying the journey is a damn shame for y'all.


What is there to understand? Seriously, not picking a fight. The only path I see is pretty much the only one that exists.

(competent management) + (competent coaching) + (average to above average talent) + ( barely marginal QB play) = meh.

Don't get me wrong - I enjoy watching real football. Yesterday's game was actually fun. But just remember what Morpheus said to Neo - sooner or later you're going to realize just as I did that there's a difference between knowing the path and walking the path



Did you really just drop a Matrix take on me?

My disillusion is strong.

If you don't want to believe your Lyin eyes think about this.

Last time a Browns D was in the top 10 in the 2nd half of the season was?

Last time we beat the division leaders & 2nd place team was?

Last time we were in the top half of the division 9 games in was?

Last time the D led the NFL in yards per play was?

You can call JCs QB play meh. Well, the Rats were giving up 16 pts a game the last several games leading in. JC put TDs on the board with the likes of Bess & Little. SOMEONE has to get the credit. It's either them or him. They won with RBs that should be working at Lowes. They essentially ran out the last 6 minutes to close out. SOMEONE is doing SOMETHING more than meh. Of anyone thinks a rook is playing better at that level not named Teddy or Marcus they spliefted.

It's happening right before our eyes right now. But ehrone be all harrumph grumble grumble.

This is now a bona fide NFL team. After a half decade of 4-12 s and unwatchable football it is what it is.

Bus load of cap room, 5 picks in the first 3 rounds. Young players stepping up. Hard caught division wins. A D that was strong, exposed, and adjusted back to strong.

The journey is well underway.

You can be Ferris or Cam but don't look now but we're the sausage kings of Chicago and all logical, realistic signs point to it getting better.


We are in complete agreement that "it's happening right before our eyes". And I, for one, am cautiously optimistic. I just don't see any mythical Banner formula for success. It's "building an org 101". Just basic stuff. Except its 14 years delayed.

So when your journey down the path begins more than a decade after it was scheduled, I just can't get all warm and fuzzy after the first couple of steps.



Don't get me wrong. I'm not going down the path of penning some Hometic epic about Banner & Lombardo. It may be heresy but there were some solid blocks left here by Heckert. The top of his signature draft turned out to be a football Ishtar but if you look at the roster there's core players and some good depth. For every Marecic ther's a Cameron. Gordon was controversial. Haden & Taylor were boring building blocks. No FO could turn in a year.

The new guys made some awful FA decisions. He'll they cut half their own FOs.

But here's what they've done right:

Soft reboot. They came in to evaluation without prejudice. Sure it saddled us with a half season in the Weeds but overall guys we thought were bums or overrated are starting to emerge. Ida cut Little, Skrine never played Gipson and come to 2012 conclusions on others. Hopefully this open minded ness of players that aren't "their guys" continues.

Hired the best coach they could outside their network & surrounded him with vet coordinators.

Seized opportunity with TRich.

Showed patient strategic thinking.

Those aren't novel ideas - unless you're a Browns fan. Then they're novel to see.

Step one, cleansing the stank, like as if is a shower getting the radiation off in an old Bond flick is complete.

The far more important task is yet to come.
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Re: Baltimore @ Cleveland - Welcome back Weeden edition

Unread postby danwismar » Wed Nov 06, 2013 1:16 pm

There's a front page piece in there somewhere, Mansfield.

Just make sure to include these turns of phrase...

"half a season in the Weeds..."

"...his signature draft was a football Ishtar..."

"...they won with RB's that should be working at Lowes..."

That's entertainment!
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Re: Baltimore @ Cleveland - Welcome back Weeden edition

Unread postby googleeph2 » Wed Nov 06, 2013 1:42 pm

"cynicism is half-full"
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Re: Baltimore @ Cleveland - Welcome back Weeden edition

Unread postby Hikohadon » Wed Nov 06, 2013 2:42 pm

bac5665 wrote:This next game against the Bungles is a huge test for the culture change of this team. If we win, it sets us up for the rest of the schedule. If we lose, we'll have to work hard to get to 8-8.

If Chud wins this next game (in two weeks) I'll have bought in. And I would think even Hiko would have to take notice of our being in the hunt not just for a WC but for the division still at week 11.

But if we lose, we'll be two games under 500 and out of the playoff hunt heading into NE. That's a sequence that can kill our newfound confidence.


You are correct. They win against Cincy (potentially putting them only a half-game out of first depending on the Bengal result this weekend) and I will set aside my caution regarding long term viability for The Present, which would be a possible playoff run right now in 2013 with this flawed but sometimes interesting team.

Right now I'm not even considering playoff contention for this season, but if they win that game, I have no choice but to consider it.
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Re: Baltimore @ Cleveland - Welcome back Weeden edition

Unread postby HoodooMan » Wed Nov 06, 2013 3:12 pm

I don't think we're going to win that game.

I think we have a better chance of upsetting New England or Chicago for a breakthrough "Ooooh, maybe playoffs!"-win.

Right now my crystal balls say:

@CIN-L
PIT-W
JAX-W
@NE-L
CHI-W
@NYJ-W
@PIT-???
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Plus it's kinda personal for me... I have a lot of family and friends who are Ducks... (angrybeaver, 11/08/09)
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Re: Baltimore @ Cleveland - Welcome back Weeden edition

Unread postby jb » Wed Nov 06, 2013 3:12 pm

Hikohadon wrote:
bac5665 wrote:This next game against the Bungles is a huge test for the culture change of this team. If we win, it sets us up for the rest of the schedule. If we lose, we'll have to work hard to get to 8-8.

If Chud wins this next game (in two weeks) I'll have bought in. And I would think even Hiko would have to take notice of our being in the hunt not just for a WC but for the division still at week 11.

But if we lose, we'll be two games under 500 and out of the playoff hunt heading into NE. That's a sequence that can kill our newfound confidence.


You are correct. They win against Cincy (potentially putting them only a half-game out of first depending on the Bengal result this weekend) and I will set aside my caution regarding long term viability for The Present, which would be a possible playoff run right now in 2013 with this flawed but sometimes interesting team.

Right now I'm not even considering playoff contention for this season, but if they win that game, I have no choice but to consider it.


Shit - Someone get this to Berea for the bullatain board - stat! This win would get Hiko on board.

;-) ;) :wink:
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Re: Baltimore @ Cleveland - Welcome back Weeden edition

Unread postby Hikohadon » Wed Nov 06, 2013 3:55 pm

jb wrote:
Hikohadon wrote:
bac5665 wrote:This next game against the Bungles is a huge test for the culture change of this team. If we win, it sets us up for the rest of the schedule. If we lose, we'll have to work hard to get to 8-8.

If Chud wins this next game (in two weeks) I'll have bought in. And I would think even Hiko would have to take notice of our being in the hunt not just for a WC but for the division still at week 11.

But if we lose, we'll be two games under 500 and out of the playoff hunt heading into NE. That's a sequence that can kill our newfound confidence.


You are correct. They win against Cincy (potentially putting them only a half-game out of first depending on the Bengal result this weekend) and I will set aside my caution regarding long term viability for The Present, which would be a possible playoff run right now in 2013 with this flawed but sometimes interesting team.

Right now I'm not even considering playoff contention for this season, but if they win that game, I have no choice but to consider it.


Shit - Someone get this to Berea for the bullatain board - stat! This win would get Hiko on board.

;-) ;) :wink:


Maybe. If they win and Campbell gets hurt, I'm back in the pouty seat.
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Re: Baltimore @ Cleveland - Welcome back Weeden edition

Unread postby bac5665 » Wed Nov 06, 2013 4:55 pm

I have the win at Cinci more likely than a win over CHI. Cutler will be back by then and they'll be vying for the division with GB, now that Rogers is out and GB has a chance to be unseated.

Cinci, meanwhile, is Cinci, and we've been able to beat them lately.

I think if we beat Cinci, playoffs are a real possibility. Our season comes down to Cinci, and NYJ, and taking one from NE/CHI. If we go 2-2 in those 4, we're in, with the AFC being this bad. But my strong suspicion is that we'll go 1-3 in those games.
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Re: Baltimore @ Cleveland - Welcome back Weeden edition

Unread postby Hikohadon » Wed Nov 06, 2013 5:06 pm

NE and Chicago will not be good matchups for our D, and we don't have the O to make up the difference. Never say never, but they will never win those games. ;-) ;) :wink:
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Re: Baltimore @ Cleveland - Welcome back Weeden edition

Unread postby googleeph2 » Wed Nov 06, 2013 6:33 pm

Wow, imagine a fighting-for-playoffs Browns team at season-long-over Pittsburgh.

I'd want a suitable-for-framing photo of Heinx field, the stands adorned in orange.
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Re: Baltimore @ Cleveland - Welcome back Weeden edition

Unread postby mattvan1 » Wed Nov 06, 2013 10:48 pm

jb wrote:
mattvan1 wrote:
jb wrote:
mattvan1 wrote:
jb wrote:You don't go from abject hopeless rudderless suck to the 85 Bears overnight, but there is a path to get there.

For some y'all to miss out on understanding the path and enjoying the journey is a damn shame for y'all.


What is there to understand? Seriously, not picking a fight. The only path I see is pretty much the only one that exists.

(competent management) + (competent coaching) + (average to above average talent) + ( barely marginal QB play) = meh.

Don't get me wrong - I enjoy watching real football. Yesterday's game was actually fun. But just remember what Morpheus said to Neo - sooner or later you're going to realize just as I did that there's a difference between knowing the path and walking the path



Did you really just drop a Matrix take on me?

My disillusion is strong.

If you don't want to believe your Lyin eyes think about this.

Last time a Browns D was in the top 10 in the 2nd half of the season was?

Last time we beat the division leaders & 2nd place team was?

Last time we were in the top half of the division 9 games in was?

Last time the D led the NFL in yards per play was?

You can call JCs QB play meh. Well, the Rats were giving up 16 pts a game the last several games leading in. JC put TDs on the board with the likes of Bess & Little. SOMEONE has to get the credit. It's either them or him. They won with RBs that should be working at Lowes. They essentially ran out the last 6 minutes to close out. SOMEONE is doing SOMETHING more than meh. Of anyone thinks a rook is playing better at that level not named Teddy or Marcus they spliefted.

It's happening right before our eyes right now. But ehrone be all harrumph grumble grumble.

This is now a bona fide NFL team. After a half decade of 4-12 s and unwatchable football it is what it is.

Bus load of cap room, 5 picks in the first 3 rounds. Young players stepping up. Hard caught division wins. A D that was strong, exposed, and adjusted back to strong.

The journey is well underway.

You can be Ferris or Cam but don't look now but we're the sausage kings of Chicago and all logical, realistic signs point to it getting better.


We are in complete agreement that "it's happening right before our eyes". And I, for one, am cautiously optimistic. I just don't see any mythical Banner formula for success. It's "building an org 101". Just basic stuff. Except its 14 years delayed.

So when your journey down the path begins more than a decade after it was scheduled, I just can't get all warm and fuzzy after the first couple of steps.



Don't get me wrong. I'm not going down the path of penning some Hometic epic about Banner & Lombardo. It may be heresy but there were some solid blocks left here by Heckert. The top of his signature draft turned out to be a football Ishtar but if you look at the roster there's core players and some good depth. For every Marecic ther's a Cameron. Gordon was controversial. Haden & Taylor were boring building blocks. No FO could turn in a year.

The new guys made some awful FA decisions. He'll they cut half their own FOs.

But here's what they've done right:

Soft reboot. They came in to evaluation without prejudice. Sure it saddled us with a half season in the Weeds but overall guys we thought were bums or overrated are starting to emerge. Ida cut Little, Skrine never played Gipson and come to 2012 conclusions on others. Hopefully this open minded ness of players that aren't "their guys" continues.

Hired the best coach they could outside their network & surrounded him with vet coordinators.

Seized opportunity with TRich.

Showed patient strategic thinking.

Those aren't novel ideas - unless you're a Browns fan. Then they're novel to see.

Step one, cleansing the stank, like as if is a shower getting the radiation off in an old Bond flick is complete.

The far more important task is yet to come.


We are in lockstep on the "what they've done right". Will be interesting how they handle the 2014 draft with respect to "go for it now" or continue to add depth for the impending FA exodus after next season.

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Re: Baltimore @ Cleveland - Welcome back Weeden edition

Unread postby jb » Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:28 am

To me this is all about expectations & perspective. I don't think the Browns are "good ". I think they are average now (up from dreadful & hopeless) and have the resources and player development trajectory that puts them in position to be good.

From that context beating Brady & Cutler is massively heavy lift for this Crüe. They have punchers chance given pass rush and that's about it.

Sweeping a good team like Cincy is also a lift, so IDK about that as an "expectation" by any reasonable standard. I more or less expect 3 losses there.

Now Jax is worse that Shurmurrific. Have to expect a W. F the rivalry. Look what it did for us. Pbgh is a great matchup for us. The pass rush should be extremely effective vs a porous OL and increasingly immobile QB. They have 1 good WR Joe otta be able to shut down. No run game. Have to take away the TE & not play that shyte zone. I expect 2 wins.

That leaves the Jets game in toss up territory. Not a bad matchup. No one is running for 200 on us so Geno has to beat us. I like our chances.

8-8.

Now if the standard is all of a sudden "playoffs & I'll wake up" then IDK the origin of that. Only crazy fanboys would have expected that in July. Ditto 9-7. 8-8 is a Great Leap Forward for this bunch. Hitting that reasonable standard as a base beach head for the next phase is an accomplishment of a stretch goal and to be savored.

Of course the ultimate goal in Berlin but No one expected Ike in Paris on June 10,44.

So I'm not going down the path. Cue up Jim Mora.
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Re: Baltimore @ Cleveland - Welcome back Weeden edition

Unread postby peeker643 » Thu Nov 07, 2013 10:47 am

jb wrote:Now if the standard is all of a sudden "playoffs & I'll wake up" then IDK the origin of that. Only crazy fanboys would have expected that in July. Ditto 9-7. 8-8 is a Great Leap Forward for this bunch. Hitting that reasonable standard as a base beach head for the next phase is an accomplishment of a stretch goal and to be savored.

Of course the ultimate goal in Berlin but No one expected Ike in Paris on June 10,44.

So I'm not going down the path. Cue up Jim Mora.


Yeah. Where the fuck did that come from out of, "This team is better and on the right track"?

I'm not even considering playoffs and, for the record, anyone who says they ain't interested at all UNLESS the Browns beat Cincy is already more deeply interested than they're willing to admit.

In fact, anyone spending as much time as we do on Browns boards is flat out lying to himself if he says he ain't interested.

So there's that.

But playoffs??

Not the measuring stick. You can make the playoffs at 7-9 and not at 10-6 or 11-5. I'll stick with what I'm seeing on the field. Keep improving and that shit will show up in the standings.
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Re: Baltimore @ Cleveland - Welcome back Weeden edition

Unread postby Hikohadon » Thu Nov 07, 2013 10:57 am

God, you people will just look for any damn thing to pick a fight about.

I do find it cute how week to week we all swap roles in this stupid play.
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Re: Baltimore @ Cleveland - Welcome back Weeden edition

Unread postby jb » Thu Nov 07, 2013 2:45 pm

peeker643 wrote:
jb wrote:Now if the standard is all of a sudden "playoffs & I'll wake up" then IDK the origin of that. Only crazy fanboys would have expected that in July. Ditto 9-7. 8-8 is a Great Leap Forward for this bunch. Hitting that reasonable standard as a base beach head for the next phase is an accomplishment of a stretch goal and to be savored.

Of course the ultimate goal in Berlin but No one expected Ike in Paris on June 10,44.

So I'm not going down the path. Cue up Jim Mora.


Yeah. Where the fuck did that come from out of, "This team is better and on the right track"?

I'm not even considering playoffs and, for the record, anyone who says they ain't interested at all UNLESS the Browns beat Cincy is already more deeply interested than they're willing to admit.

In fact, anyone spending as much time as we do on Browns boards is flat out lying to himself if he says he ain't interested.

So there's that.

But playoffs??

Not the measuring stick. You can make the playoffs at 7-9 and not at 10-6 or 11-5. I'll stick with what I'm seeing on the field. Keep improving and that shit will show up in the standings.



Exactly what I'm saying.
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Re: Baltimore @ Cleveland - Welcome back Weeden edition

Unread postby jb » Thu Nov 07, 2013 2:45 pm

Hikohadon wrote:God, you people will just look for any damn thing to pick a fight about.

I do find it cute how week to week we all swap roles in this stupid play.


That you;re way of saying "Uncle"?
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Re: Baltimore @ Cleveland - Welcome back Weeden edition

Unread postby Hikohadon » Thu Nov 07, 2013 3:14 pm

jb wrote:
Hikohadon wrote:God, you people will just look for any damn thing to pick a fight about.

I do find it cute how week to week we all swap roles in this stupid play.


That you;re way of saying "Uncle"?


I prefer to think of it as "Shut The Fuck Up Already This Conversation Is Older Than Weeden", but that can probably be translated as "Uncle" if you want.

Whatever makes you fools stop pumping your KY'd fists. (cache)
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Re: Baltimore @ Cleveland - Welcome back Weeden edition

Unread postby peeker643 » Thu Nov 07, 2013 3:17 pm

Hikohadon wrote:
jb wrote:
Hikohadon wrote:God, you people will just look for any damn thing to pick a fight about.

I do find it cute how week to week we all swap roles in this stupid play.


That you;re way of saying "Uncle"?


I prefer to think of it as "Shut The Fuck Up Already This Conversation Is Older Than Weeden", but that can probably be translated as "Uncle" if you want.

Whatever makes you fools stop pumping your KY'd fists. (cache)


You'd probably get less shit if you just went with "Uncle".

But, alas, some people are just incapable of exiting an argument gracefully.

Glad I'm not like that. It's so petty and unappealing :hide:
"Great minds think alike. The opposite is also true."

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Re: Baltimore @ Cleveland - Welcome back Weeden edition

Unread postby Hikohadon » Thu Nov 07, 2013 4:06 pm

peeker643 wrote:
Hikohadon wrote:
jb wrote:
Hikohadon wrote:God, you people will just look for any damn thing to pick a fight about.

I do find it cute how week to week we all swap roles in this stupid play.


That you;re way of saying "Uncle"?


I prefer to think of it as "Shut The Fuck Up Already This Conversation Is Older Than Weeden", but that can probably be translated as "Uncle" if you want.

Whatever makes you fools stop pumping your KY'd fists. (cache)


You'd probably get less shit if you just went with "Uncle".

But, alas, some people are just incapable of exiting an argument gracefully.

Glad I'm not like that. It's so petty and unappealing :hide:


Heh, I know, we both suffer from Last Word Disease.
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Re: Baltimore @ Cleveland - Welcome back Weeden edition

Unread postby justmebd » Thu Nov 07, 2013 11:05 pm

So there.
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