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Gordon Trade rumors to Cleve West errr SF

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Re: Gordon Trade rumors to Cleve West errr SF

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Tue Oct 08, 2013 2:10 pm

Peyton Manning ran for a touchdown this week. Pretty sure that makes him Walter Peyton!
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Re: Gordon Trade rumors to Cleve West errr SF

Unread postby peeker643 » Tue Oct 08, 2013 2:13 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:
peeker643 wrote:
e0y2e3 wrote:Hoyer certainly ran a ton of read option as Michigan State... LOL

Hoyer ran the ball as an ad hoc scrambler, nothing more, nothing less.


All I can think about in that case is how he survived all those blind side pocket hits.


It's a miracle. I mean he could have ended up a useless beaten schmuk like... Sam Bradford.


Bradford's your example of choice now?

Pretty good chance you're bi-polar.

personally I think there's just a bit of a chance that Bradford 's pretty much Josh Freeman, for better or worse. ;-) ;) :wink:
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Re: Gordon Trade rumors to Cleve West errr SF

Unread postby peeker643 » Tue Oct 08, 2013 2:14 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:Peyton Manning ran for a touchdown this week. Pretty sure that makes him Walter Peyton!


False.

Walter Payton is dead.

So I guess that doesn't rule him out of being Walter Peyton. Or Gale Sears.
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Re: Gordon Trade rumors to Cleve West errr SF

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Tue Oct 08, 2013 2:15 pm

You mean Bradford's not a great name to throw out there as a beaten pocket passer but you are free to trot out TPeezy as your running QB example?

I guess I'm just not allowed to cherry pick like you are Peeker... :-(
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Re: Gordon Trade rumors to Cleve West errr SF

Unread postby HoodooMan » Tue Oct 08, 2013 2:18 pm

So can we just fill in the blanks, maybe?

"The average number of rushing attempts per game that is necessary for a running QB to open up the running game in a read-option offense, and indirectly the passing game as well somewhat, is roughly _____. The number of attempts at which the added exposure to injury for running QBs exceeds the advantages yielded in a read-option offense is roughly _____.

Furthermore, I, _____*, hereby attest to my understanding of what those advantages are."

^might possibly illuminate how thoroughly stupid this argument is.

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Re: Gordon Trade rumors to Cleve West errr SF

Unread postby peeker643 » Tue Oct 08, 2013 2:19 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:You mean Bradford's not a great name to throw out there as a beaten pocket passer but you are free to trot out TPeezy as your running QB example?

I guess I'm just not allowed to cherry pick like you are Peeker... :-(


You can throw out who you want, Lee. I think we can bth agree that there are simply some really good and really bad pocket and read-option QBs.

I will advise that Pryor (even this season) has thrown far more often than he's run. He was concussed on a run.

Bad things happen out of the pocket to QBs my man. Bad, bad, hurtful, painful things. More so than when they're in that little, warm womb.
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Re: Gordon Trade rumors to Cleve West errr SF

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Tue Oct 08, 2013 2:21 pm

The Ginger was hurt on a run too I think.
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Re: Gordon Trade rumors to Cleve West errr SF

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Tue Oct 08, 2013 2:22 pm

HoodooMan wrote:So can we just fill in the blanks, maybe?

"The average number of rushing attempts per game that is necessary for a running QB to open up the running game in a read-option offense, and indirectly the passing game as well somewhat, is roughly _____. The number of attempts at which the added exposure to injury for running QBs exceeds the advantages yielded in a read-option offense is roughly _____.

Furthermore, I, _____*, hereby attest to my understanding of what those advantages are."

^might possibly illuminate how thoroughly stupid this argument is.

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Non-sense, this would require one to understand that over the course of an NFL game a team is free to call and use as many concepts as it wants and that variation in and of itself breeds results. Peeker told me teams can't do this and that once they run one read-option they have to run 450 more that game.
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Re: Gordon Trade rumors to Cleve West errr SF

Unread postby peeker643 » Tue Oct 08, 2013 2:23 pm

HoodooMan wrote:So can we just fill in the blanks, maybe?

"The average number of rushing attempts per game that is necessary for a running QB to open up the running game in a read-option offense, and indirectly the passing game as well somewhat, is roughly _____. The number of attempts at which the added exposure to injury for running QBs exceeds the advantages yielded in a read-option offense is roughly _____.

Furthermore, I, _____*, hereby attest to my understanding of what those advantages are."

^might possibly illuminate how thoroughly stupid this argument is.

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No. I haven't had downtime at work in a couple weeks. And I have another hour of it. Like there's anything else on these boards worth reading once you realize Pod and Furls 48 new posts are actually just two posts submitted 24 times.
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Re: Gordon Trade rumors to Cleve West errr SF

Unread postby jb » Tue Oct 08, 2013 2:24 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:
HoodooMan wrote:So can we just fill in the blanks, maybe?

"The average number of rushing attempts per game that is necessary for a running QB to open up the running game in a read-option offense, and indirectly the passing game as well somewhat, is roughly _____. The number of attempts at which the added exposure to injury for running QBs exceeds the advantages yielded in a read-option offense is roughly _____.

Furthermore, I, _____*, hereby attest to my understanding of what those advantages are."

^might possibly illuminate how thoroughly stupid this argument is.

*-THIS IS WHERE YOUR NAME GOES




Non-sense, this would require one to understand that over the course of an NFL game a team is free to call and use as many concepts as it wants and that variation in and of itself breeds results. Peeker told me teams can't do this and that once they run one read-option they have to run 450 more that game.




Then 450 goes in the first blank line.

Hoo Doo accounts for all variables.
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Re: Gordon Trade rumors to Cleve West errr SF

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Tue Oct 08, 2013 2:27 pm

Are we bringing mid-line and veer concepts into the NFL in this hypothetical as well? Pretty sure those were originated in around 1890 but they are alive and well in plenty of spread offenses.

Hell, maybe optioning the defensive tackle's fat ass is how we save the soon to be dead running QBs.
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Re: Gordon Trade rumors to Cleve West errr SF

Unread postby peeker643 » Tue Oct 08, 2013 2:28 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:
HoodooMan wrote:So can we just fill in the blanks, maybe?

"The average number of rushing attempts per game that is necessary for a running QB to open up the running game in a read-option offense, and indirectly the passing game as well somewhat, is roughly _____. The number of attempts at which the added exposure to injury for running QBs exceeds the advantages yielded in a read-option offense is roughly _____.

Furthermore, I, _____*, hereby attest to my understanding of what those advantages are."

^might possibly illuminate how thoroughly stupid this argument is.

*-THIS IS WHERE YOUR NAME GOES


Non-sense, this would require one to understand that over the course of an NFL game a team is free to call and use as many concepts as it wants and that variation in and of itself breeds results. Peeker told me teams can't do this and that once they run one read-option they have to run 450 more that game.


Objection!!! I'd like to call for yet another citation check on this please.

Simply not true.

First of all, I've never spoken to Lee. So I've told him nothing. And second, 450 offensive plays by a team is ridiculous even if you're Chip Kelly. Most teams only average 250 or so per regular season game, although sometimes more if the games go into more than one overtime period or are ultimately decided by the ultra cool read-option shootout.
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Re: Gordon Trade rumors to Cleve West errr SF

Unread postby HoodooMan » Tue Oct 08, 2013 2:37 pm

peeker643 wrote:No. I haven't had downtime at work in a couple weeks. And I have another hour of it.


Plenty of time to cross check missed-starts & rushing attempts for NFL QBs over X number of years and compare those findings with missed-starts & passing attempts.

OK, actually, I suppose determining which starts were missed due to injury and which were missed due to sucking would probably be time consuming.

But it'd make for an interesting read.
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Re: Gordon Trade rumors to Cleve West errr SF

Unread postby peeker643 » Tue Oct 08, 2013 2:37 pm

Real quick- Anyone have the records of these Read Option teams handy?

I know Seattle is 4-1. Who else is running up huge win-loss records with this bitch?
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Re: Gordon Trade rumors to Cleve West errr SF

Unread postby peeker643 » Tue Oct 08, 2013 2:42 pm

HoodooMan wrote:
peeker643 wrote:No. I haven't had downtime at work in a couple weeks. And I have another hour of it.


Plenty of time to cross check missed-starts & rushing attempts for NFL QBs over X number of years and compare those findings with missed-starts & passing attempts.

OK, actually, I suppose determining which starts were missed due to injury and which were missed due to sucking would probably be time consuming.

But it'd make for an interesting read.


Ugh. Too subjective, no? I mean, Hoyer started week three because Weeden was hurt. He started week 4 ostensibly because Weeden was hurt and he started week 5 because Weeden blows or because Weeden was hurt or because Weeden blurts?

I don't have anywhere near that kind of time or dedication to anything but fucking around, really.

Sorry man.
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Re: Gordon Trade rumors to Cleve West errr SF

Unread postby jb » Tue Oct 08, 2013 2:51 pm

peeker643 wrote:Real quick- Anyone have the records of these Read Option teams handy?

I know Seattle is 4-1. Who else is running up huge win-loss records with this bitch?



Pittsburgh?

The Giants?

C'mon man. No one on this board is that simple.
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Re: Gordon Trade rumors to Cleve West errr SF

Unread postby peeker643 » Tue Oct 08, 2013 2:59 pm

jb wrote:
peeker643 wrote:Real quick- Anyone have the records of these Read Option teams handy?

I know Seattle is 4-1. Who else is running up huge win-loss records with this bitch?



Pittsburgh?

The Giants?

C'mon man. No one on this board is that simple.


You're kidding, right? There are plenty of people on this board that are that simple.

I really want to know why only one or two teams are winning with consistent use of an offense that puts defenses in crippling, decision-making positions when it's run. Are there legitimately only two genuine dudes that can run it because they're legit with both arms and legs? They both in the NFC West?
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Re: Gordon Trade rumors to Cleve West errr SF

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Tue Oct 08, 2013 3:05 pm

It's someone stole a kid's candy so they are going to run around coloring on the walls until someone gives it back to them.
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Re: Gordon Trade rumors to Cleve West errr SF

Unread postby jb » Tue Oct 08, 2013 3:07 pm

peeker643 wrote:
jb wrote:
peeker643 wrote:Real quick- Anyone have the records of these Read Option teams handy?

I know Seattle is 4-1. Who else is running up huge win-loss records with this bitch?



Pittsburgh?

The Giants?

C'mon man. No one on this board is that simple.


You're kidding, right? There are plenty of people on this board that are that simple.

I really want to know why only one or two teams are winning with consistent use of an offense that puts defenses in crippling, decision-making positions when it's run. Are there legitimately only two genuine dudes that can run it because they're legit with both arms and legs? They both in the NFC West?


HURRRRRR - DC sucks cause the spread killed RG3.

DURRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR - Mike Vick is hurt because of the spread.

DAAAAAAAACK - Cam bad spread bad Peezy tats.

Plenty of reasons NFL teams win and lose. We all know that. We all know from sample sizes. case studies' flaws, adoption curves, etc. Most posters here are smarter than the average bear.

You're going emo on me Peeker. This is where you see dead red, dig in and no one can talk to you about shit; even when it comes to the smallest points related to a position you have. You get all Irish-fighty and sorts.

That's why I'm so special with my distinctive ability to roll guernades into the room on this bunch. :santa:

No sale. Not getting sucked in again. A lifetime with one Ginger Cringer Tong War is enough for anyone.

Hiko would be game ordinarily but he agrees with you. That leaves Hopkins.
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Re: Gordon Trade rumors to Cleve West errr SF

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Tue Oct 08, 2013 3:18 pm

Don't you have some 'Bama film to watch while getting all warm and tingly JB?
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Re: Gordon Trade rumors to Cleve West errr SF

Unread postby peeker643 » Tue Oct 08, 2013 3:20 pm

No... I'm not...seriously... I'm sitting here eating my apple and having a good time with this.

And I think I'm getting to the point that says a guy like Kaepernik and a guy like Wislon are simply special players. There aren't those guys in ready supply. Why doesn't the read-option work with Cam in 2013 like it did in 2011? Because teams will put the extra guy up front and go with five all the time and sometimes more because Cam can't/won't beat it. Not with Read-option and not with throwing the ball.

Why?

I don't know. But it's not an issue Kaepernik and Wilson have faced and Wilson has arguably similar talent catching the ball from him. Why isn't Dee Williams Marshawn Lynch productive even with threat of Cam's read-option?

So...why? And if it's because Wilson and Kaepernik are simply more transcendantplayers then would it matter if they were completely pocket guys or read-option guys?

What it does do is realy make me wonder about Cam.
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Re: Gordon Trade rumors to Cleve West errr SF

Unread postby pup » Tue Oct 08, 2013 3:21 pm

Anybody think there is any truth to the Cam trade rumors?
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Re: Gordon Trade rumors to Cleve West errr SF

Unread postby peeker643 » Tue Oct 08, 2013 3:24 pm

pup wrote:Anybody think there is any truth to the Cam trade rumors?


Why don't you go huff some more of that low grade paint you guys manufacture?

Wouldn't slap that crap on a garden fence. ;-) ;) :wink:

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Re: Gordon Trade rumors to Cleve West errr SF

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Tue Oct 08, 2013 3:26 pm

peeker643 wrote:No... I'm not...seriously... I'm sitting here eating my apple and having a good time with this.

And I think I'm getting to the point that says a guy like Kaepernik and a guy like Wislon are simply special players. There aren't those guys in ready supply. Why doesn't the read-option work with Cam in 2013 like it did in 2011? Because teams will put the extra guy up front and go with five all the time and sometimes more because Cam can't/won't beat it. Not with Read-option and not with throwing the ball.

Why?

I don't know. But it's not an issue Kaepernik and Wilson have faced and Wilson has arguably similar talent catching the ball from him. Why isn't Dee Williams Marshawn Lynch productive even with threat of Cam's read-option?

So...why? And if it's because Wilson and Kaepernik are simply more transcendantplayers then would it matter if they were completely pocket guys or read-option guys?

What it does do is realy make me wonder about Cam.


Cam is not a very good read option QB and frankly they struggled more last year when they ran it a ton. Part of his improvement in play last year was going away from called read option plays.

I mean you watch Braxton Miller screw up running the read option every single Saturday. Fast and can run <> being a good option QB.

But I shouldn't have to explain that.
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Re: Gordon Trade rumors to Cleve West errr SF

Unread postby peeker643 » Tue Oct 08, 2013 3:27 pm

Anyway... my free time is over.

You guys think about what I've taught you and told you this afternoon. You'll be better for it tomorrow.
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Re: Gordon Trade rumors to Cleve West errr SF

Unread postby Hikohadon » Tue Oct 08, 2013 4:33 pm

jb wrote:Hiko would be game ordinarily but he agrees with you.


Didn't jump in earlier bc I kind of agree with everyone.

I like mobile QB's. I understand the extra dimension they bring. And if I had one, yes, I'd run some read option with them (if they were effective at it).

But I don't think the Read Option/Spread will work as a base offense in the NFL, so I just don't buy there's any kind of "revolution" coming. You use it to complement your offensive repertoire, throw teams off, but in the end your QB still needs to be a passer first. And if the QB can't still be effective if he were trapped in the pocket by a force field, then he's no good to me.

And, yes, the amount of planned runs you call has to be influenced by the fact that NFL Defenses will look to kill a QB that runs too often. It has to be factored in (course it also helps if the QB runs smart, like Kap does when he hits the dirt at the first sign of trouble, cuz if Manuel gets out of bounds instead of trying to pick up the extra 3 yards, Gipson doesn't peg him and he finishes that game).

I'd say, in general, all of the running QB's run far less than supposed anyway. It's not like we're watching Georgia Tech's offense out there, even in Philly. And all of the "running" QB's that are effective (RG3, Kap, Wilson, etc.) are also excellent passers. All of them look to throw first, run second.

So I think of Cam's ability to run as gravy and ask if he's a better passer - a better overall QB when dropping back to pass - than Weeden, and I think the answer's probably yes. Coming out, I'd have said no, but he's shown some excellent passing flashes, nice deep balls, not too many mistakes (in some games). Dude threw for over 4000 yards, so I don't think his passing ability is a fluke.
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Re: Gordon Trade rumors to Cleve West errr SF

Unread postby leadpipe » Tue Oct 08, 2013 5:27 pm

Not sure about Cam, but there's three things I know;

1. One of Cam's two clear strengths is throwing the deep ball.

2. The other clear strength is running the ball.

3. Carolina has put him in an offense that does neither.

Some amazingly dumb things going on in the NFL these days, in regards to old school coaches not catching on to the game changing.

I mean, whodathunk that the Cowboys would be giving up 800 yards a game thru the air after hiring a fossil?

Point being, even though I got some quesions about certain Cam intangibles, I'm not writing a guy off with his talent until someone who knows what the F is going on gets a hold of him.
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Re: Gordon Trade rumors to Cleve West errr SF

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Wed Oct 09, 2013 6:26 pm

After scrolling down the first page, imagine my excitement to learn there was a PAGE 2.

Holy flying monkey balls.
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Re: Gordon Trade rumors to Cleve West errr SF

Unread postby YahooFanChicago » Thu Oct 10, 2013 5:23 am

This discussion seemed to slow down the past day. I was hoping there would be more. Very entertaining.
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Re: Gordon Trade rumors to Cleve West errr SF

Unread postby pod2dawg » Thu Oct 10, 2013 10:09 am

I'll throw in a couple double posts to spice it up.
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Re: Gordon Trade rumors to Cleve West errr SF

Unread postby pod2dawg » Thu Oct 10, 2013 10:09 am

I'll throw in a couple double posts to spice it up.
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Re: Gordon Trade rumors to Cleve West errr SF

Unread postby peeker643 » Thu Oct 10, 2013 10:12 am

LaCanfora or Rappaport (not sure which) said both Little and Mitchell Schwartz could also be in play.

For whatever that's worth.
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Re: Gordon Trade rumors to Cleve West errr SF

Unread postby Hikohadon » Thu Oct 10, 2013 1:42 pm

peeker643 wrote:LaCanfora or Rappaport (not sure which) said both Little and Mitchell Schwartz could also be in play.

For whatever that's worth.


Both of which are imminently tradeable and replaceable, though you'd better get something good for them since their replacements are still somewhat inferior to them and there's no reason to go trading people just to trade them.
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Re: Gordon Trade rumors to Cleve West errr SF

Unread postby FUDU » Thu Oct 10, 2013 1:45 pm

Can we trade moscratch and CDT? I'd take a 5th and a 2nd respectively.
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Re: Gordon Trade rumors to Cleve West errr SF

Unread postby jb » Thu Oct 10, 2013 1:58 pm

pod2dawg wrote:I'll throw in a couple double posts to spice it up.



Peeker crying about his martyrdom like as if he's St Sebastian and your & Furls habitual double posts from your tiwtcht ass digits are arrows is not "spicing things up".

usually.
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Re: Gordon Trade rumors to Cleve West errr SF

Unread postby peeker643 » Thu Oct 10, 2013 3:26 pm

jb wrote:
pod2dawg wrote:I'll throw in a couple double posts to spice it up.



Peeker crying about his martyrdom like as if he's St Sebastian and your & Furls habitual double posts from your tiwtcht ass digits are arrows is not "spicing things up".

usually.


Says the guy who apparently types his posts with his forehead.

Albeit just once per post.

Thank Christ.
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Re: Gordon Trade rumors to Cleve West errr SF

Unread postby Hikohadon » Thu Oct 10, 2013 3:30 pm

peeker643 wrote:Says the guy who apparently types his posts with his forehead.


I don't care who you are, that's just funny.

I get an image of JB banging his head on the keyboard, looking at the result, and saying "close enough".
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Re: Gordon Trade rumors to Cleve West errr SF

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Thu Oct 10, 2013 7:19 pm

jb wrote:
pod2dawg wrote:I'll throw in a couple double posts to spice it up.



Peeker crying about his martyrdom like as if he's St Sebastian and your & Furls habitual double posts from your tiwtcht ass digits are arrows is not "spicing things up".

usually.


Can someone translate this from JBish to English?
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Re: Gordon Trade rumors to Cleve West errr SF

Unread postby motherscratcher » Thu Oct 10, 2013 8:18 pm

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:
jb wrote:
pod2dawg wrote:I'll throw in a couple double posts to spice it up.



Peeker crying about his martyrdom like as if he's St Sebastian and your & Furls habitual double posts from your tiwtcht ass digits are arrows is not "spicing things up".

usually.


Can someone translate this from JBish to English?


*Peeker acting like a martyr as if he's Joan of Arc and Pod/Furl's frequent double posts typed with jittery fingers is not an example of "spicing things up".
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Re: Gordon Trade rumors to Cleve West errr SF

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Thu Oct 10, 2013 8:56 pm

So we're going to burn Peek at the stake?
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Re: Gordon Trade rumors to Cleve West errr SF

Unread postby jb » Fri Oct 11, 2013 1:14 pm

Hikohadon wrote:
peeker643 wrote:Says the guy who apparently types his posts with his forehead.


I don't care who you are, that's just funny.

I get an image of JB banging his head on the keyboard, looking at the result, and saying "close enough".



as if i look at the result.

btw - the mobile interface is brutal. Just exacerbates my issies.
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Re: Gordon Trade rumors to Cleve West errr SF

Unread postby FUDU » Fri Oct 11, 2013 1:17 pm

Image
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Re: Gordon Trade rumors to Cleve West errr SF

Unread postby jb » Fri Oct 11, 2013 1:20 pm

^^^^

Arguably the best thing he's ever posted.
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Re: Gordon Trade rumors to Cleve West errr SF

Unread postby Lubber » Tue Oct 22, 2013 3:39 pm

Rumor mill heating up again. Patriots are offering Mallett and pick for Gordon and pick.
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Re: Gordon Trade rumors to Cleve West errr SF

Unread postby Hikohadon » Tue Oct 22, 2013 4:10 pm

Lubber wrote:Rumor mill heating up again. Patriots are offering Mallett and pick for Gordon and pick.


That would be awesome, trading Gordon for Weeden. Shazam!
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Re: Gordon Trade rumors to Cleve West errr SF

Unread postby motherscratcher » Tue Oct 22, 2013 5:52 pm

Hikohadon wrote:
Lubber wrote:Rumor mill heating up again. Patriots are offering Mallett and pick for Gordon and pick.


That would be awesome, trading Gordon for Weeden. Shazam!


My favorite part of that is the fact that apparently Gordon by himself won't quite get it done for Mallett and a pick. We'd have to throw in a pick as well.

I'll bet Belichick is also offering Mallett for Gordon and a pick and Bill will let Lombardi give him a BJ.

ETA - I'll stop shot of calling this rumor ridiculous because who the hell knows what a Cleveland FO is capable office. I can't put anything past them.
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Re: Gordon Trade rumors to Cleve West errr SF

Unread postby googleeph2 » Wed Oct 23, 2013 9:05 am

I still don't get why the Browns are encouraging a bidding war on the guy.
(OTOH, if on him, why not the entire team? Frank-Lane the heck out of Berea.)

A top WR prospect is a diva? Shocking.
(I must remind myself, though: he might get a 1yr suspension by flunking another drug test. The Browns must feel particularly vulnerable to this occurring during their current 'window of contention'.)

This isn't Braylon Edwards they're dangling out there. (If Gordon had attended Michigan, I could at least understand..)

ETA: I wonder what a contract-controlled Brian Hoyer offer would look like?
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Re: Gordon Trade rumors to Cleve West errr SF

Unread postby jb » Wed Oct 23, 2013 9:15 am

Any one got link to the alleged Mallet rumor as no one can confirm that one.

And if I think Gordon is on the block cause he a diva you've been hangin with his boiz
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Re: Gordon Trade rumors to Cleve West errr SF

Unread postby peeker643 » Wed Oct 23, 2013 9:26 am

Jeez- This guy's now Jerry Rice with a small, nagging personal issue.

I'll say it again, more teams than not have a Josh Gordon. He ain't special other than his coming to the plate the rest of his career in an 0-2 count.

But maybe his quiet and tranquil and mature off the filed season this year tells y'all he's a different guy. It has been weeks since he was doing 110 on city roads, so maybe he is all growed up.

Get the best deal offered, ask for the moon, all of that. But stop acting like this guy is a cross between Megatron and Larry Fitzgerald.

Tick...tick...tick...tick...
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Re: Gordon Trade rumors to Cleve West errr SF

Unread postby HoodooMan » Wed Oct 23, 2013 10:05 am

peeker643 wrote:I'll say it again, more teams than not have a Josh Gordon. He ain't special other than his coming to the plate the rest of his career in an 0-2 count.


Nah, you're selling him way short.

No, he isn't Jerry Rice or Calvin Johnson or Larry Fitzgerald. But he could very well be a Harrison/Wayne-quality #1. Not "special" but pretty damn far from disposable.
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