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Defensive Backs

Unread postby YahooFanChicago » Mon Oct 07, 2013 12:36 am

Anyone know what the status is of Eli Apple and Cam Burrows? What about Vonn Bell? Where are these guys on the depth chart and any word on how they are developing?

Who was considered the top recruit between Apple, Burrows and Webb?
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Re: Defensive Backs

Unread postby danwismar » Mon Oct 07, 2013 11:14 am

Apple and Burrows were ranked in the top 10-12 CB's in the nation for '13. Some think Burrows will end up as a safety, and Apple is currently behind Gareon Conley (also a Top 12 corner) on the depth chart. Apple needs to add weight and strength, but he is very talented.

Webb is in the '14 class, and is considered one of the top 3 CB's in the country in most rankings (behind Jabril Peppers, a UM commit, for one)

Vonn Bell is playing special teams, and is second on the depth chart at safety. That might change, based on how Pitt Brown looked Saturday.

Playing true freshmen, regardless of their talent level, is not usually the answer when you have problems in the defensive secondary. I believe that the flaws relate to scheme, not talent. Withers and Fickell (and maybe to a lesser degree Coombs) are the ones who need to have their feet held to the fire.

A mid-season tackling clinic couldn't hurt either. Awful.
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Re: Defensive Backs

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Mon Oct 07, 2013 1:34 pm

I'd love to know how the same scheme he has been in for ages has magically made Roby suck now. Also would love to know how Pitt Brown who has sucked for ages is scheme related.
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Re: Defensive Backs

Unread postby peeker643 » Mon Oct 07, 2013 1:41 pm

All I know is that while watching the game Saturday night, my 12-yr old daughter disgustedly got up in the third quarter and walked out of the room saying, "This team just can't tackle anyone".

Not sure where she gets her negativity.
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Re: Defensive Backs

Unread postby jb » Mon Oct 07, 2013 2:50 pm

peeker643 wrote:All I know is that while watching the game Saturday night, my 12-yr old daughter disgustedly got up in the third quarter and walked out of the room saying, "This team just can't tackle anyone".

Not sure where she gets her negativity.


If were her I'd be worried. Unless she looks good as Sinade.
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Re: Defensive Backs

Unread postby jb » Mon Oct 07, 2013 2:50 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:I'd love to know how the same scheme he has been in for ages has magically made Roby suck now. Also would love to know how Pitt Brown who has sucked for ages is scheme related.



I'd love to see how Scott McVey would have looked into transition to safety.

Sniffle.
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Re: Defensive Backs

Unread postby danwismar » Mon Oct 07, 2013 3:20 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:I'd love to know how the same scheme he has been in for ages has magically made Roby suck now. Also would love to know how Pitt Brown who has sucked for ages is scheme related.


Maybe Roby underwent a talentectomy, and he no longer has the skills that made him All Big Ten a year ago, and the No. 1 corner on the draft boards of every talent evaluator.

It's not the same scheme he has always been in. They play a mix now of man...pattern matching cover 4...cover 2...and who knows what else. What slays me is the idea that the DB's are deciding for themselves how they are going to play receivers and coverages, and that how they are being coached to play has nothing to do with it. All of a sudden they're terrible players.

No argument, by the way, as I said above, that Pitt Brown shouldn't be starting.
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Re: Defensive Backs

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Mon Oct 07, 2013 3:25 pm

Good thing we have all those Super DB recruits then.
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Re: Defensive Backs

Unread postby Juannieboy » Mon Oct 07, 2013 4:34 pm

I have always felt that building a top notch defense is the most difficult task in college football. The d line, line backers and defensive backs need to function as one. Same for an offense, I know but a defense also have to read and react to what the offense is doing. I should say “correctly read and react”.

OSU may have fine individual defensive players but the chemistry does not appear anywhere near cohesive. They stop the run but allow offensive skill players to get them alone in too much space with the ball usually in front of them on passes. It’s here when they seem to miss a lot of tackles. I don’t think they are doing too bad on passes thrown over the top on them. Either that or they get confused in their coverage schemes. Roby has looked totally clueless on numerous occasions this year.
They have great athletes and the problems are (I suppose) totally correctible.

Hope the bye-week helps to fix some of the problems. I would like to see a more aggressive pass coverage.
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Re: Defensive Backs

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Mon Oct 07, 2013 10:55 pm

Dan, you are aware Urban said point blank at media day Roby had "buyer's remorse" about coming back, right?

He magically can't play any sort of zone now, tackles like shit half the time and is the worst man cover person on the roster. That isn't on the coordinator, especially when Doran Grant is managing to out play him regularly.
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Re: Defensive Backs

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Mon Oct 07, 2013 10:58 pm

Also, they haven't been running much cover four pattern matching at all.
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Re: Defensive Backs

Unread postby YahooFanChicago » Mon Oct 07, 2013 11:38 pm

One thing for sure with Roby is it doesn't seem like a physical problem in terms of losing a step or being hurt. He ran down that Northwestern receiver late in the game even though the same receiver blew by our safety (who had the angle on him). Roby certainly looks as fast as ever.

The guy is losing big money every shitty game he plays. Hope he wakes up and figures things out soon.
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Re: Defensive Backs

Unread postby YahooFanChicago » Mon Oct 07, 2013 11:47 pm

With all the new technology available when is ESPN or some other network going to create a screen-in-screen format during football telecasts showing the defensive secondary in a small upper corner screen. Most people have 42" or bigger screens now so there is room and most broadcasts have the overhead camera angle but they only use it sparingly for replays.

I wouldn't focus the whole game on it or anything but it would be nice to be able to see the routes, coverage, etc. sometimes.
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Re: Defensive Backs

Unread postby FUDU » Tue Oct 08, 2013 9:22 am

Roby isn't interested in playing on Saturday's, it's just that simple. I don't know if you can take it so far to say he's pulling a Clowney but speaking in terms of mentally, Roby is already gone.
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Re: Defensive Backs

Unread postby danwismar » Tue Oct 08, 2013 3:18 pm

Three phases to getting the job done...scheme...talent...and effort.

You could make the case that Roby isn't trying hard enough...but that's a pretty harsh thing to say about a kid who has never shown an inclination that way. To say he had buyers remorse about the draft is not the same as saying he no longer gives a shit about playing well, and is going through the motions...or flat dogging it like Clowney.

Confusion is the best word I can use to describe what I'm seeing out there with the DB's. And I consider that a function of coaching. Even if you contend that the confusion is a result of a player or players being too stupid to grasp what is being imparted by the coaches...the fault still lies with the coaches. They should implement a simpler scheme...or put smarter players out on the field.
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Re: Defensive Backs

Unread postby pup » Tue Oct 08, 2013 3:22 pm

So we can say Clowney is...but Roby isn't?
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Re: Defensive Backs

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Tue Oct 08, 2013 3:23 pm

Dan, getting toasted every single time you are in man coverage is not confusion and Roby can't play man right now, at all.

And I don't think he's not trying, I think he came into this season thinking he didn't have to worry about anything and would sleep-walk to a first round pick. It backfired and now the kid is mind fucked. Urban didn't tell the world that about Roby for the fun of it.

Again, Doran Grant is outplaying him every single week and both safeties were playing fine pre-Bryant getting hurt. During the Cal game three DBs struggled, Pitt Brown in the dime (he sucked at closing zones and defending bubble screens) Powell (who is expected to struggle and is probably overmatched against passing teams, he's more of a run/TE defender right now) and Roby.

I don't see how any scheme fixes those three players. I don't see Doran Grant blowing coverages. I don't see Barnett blowing coverages. I didn't see Bryant doing it.

I see the occasional Curtis Grant is in terrible position, Pitt Brown, Powell and Roby all struggling. And the scheme honestly isn't all that complex this year. They aren't running nearly as much of the cover four pattern matching as you seem to imply.
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Re: Defensive Backs

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Tue Oct 08, 2013 3:27 pm

pup wrote:So we can say Clowney is...but Roby isn't?


Devil's advocate here, but isn't DE a less complex position?
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Re: Defensive Backs

Unread postby danwismar » Tue Oct 08, 2013 3:27 pm

pup wrote:So we can say Clowney is...but Roby isn't?


So far Roby isn't excusing himself from entire games with questionable injuries.
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Re: Defensive Backs

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Tue Oct 08, 2013 3:29 pm

Basically I think this year is showing us exactly why Urban has signed roughly 500 DBs in the 2013 and 2014 classes.
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Re: Defensive Backs

Unread postby furls » Tue Oct 08, 2013 4:23 pm

pup wrote:So we can say Clowney is...but Roby isn't?


Pup, it is pretty clear that Clowney isn't even trying to hide it anymore. You can see that Spurrier is sick of him with every presser. I am waiting for the day that the ol ball coach sits him.

If the tackle stones him, Clowney literally concedes. It is ridiculous. He is the Anti-JJ Watt. Roby is still running hard out there, not really getting it done, but he did run down a WR running down the field that he missed the tackle on, 50 yards downfield. It was impressive. I still almost destroyed my TV when I saw another bad Roby tackle, but at least he is playing hard even if it is SHITTY.

I put this on scheme/coaching and shitty play. There are consistently 2 DBs looking at each other at least 4 times a game when it is clear that they both ended up covering the same zone. Same shit happened last year. I am starting to think it is Withers.
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Re: Defensive Backs

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Tue Oct 08, 2013 4:26 pm

To be fair Roby also ran down a WR that got open because of a blown coverage between him and Pitt Brown in the Cal game, played patty cake with his back and watched him get Cal on the board with a long TD.
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Re: Defensive Backs

Unread postby pup » Tue Oct 08, 2013 4:31 pm

Let's not act like all of the same things were not being said after one game with Clowney.

So Clowney is dogging it 7 days a week and Roby is only doing it 6 days...but at least he is showing up on Saturday!

danwismar wrote:
pup wrote:So we can say Clowney is...but Roby isn't?


So far Roby isn't excusing himself from entire games with questionable injuries.


Too bad.
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Re: Defensive Backs

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Tue Oct 08, 2013 4:33 pm

I'll say this, when Pitt Brown is your Dime safety it might be time to ditch the Dime or find a new safety. That was a very questionable "scheme and taent" based call from jump.

I mean now Pitt is starting so at least the Bucks have that going for them...
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Re: Defensive Backs

Unread postby furls » Tue Oct 08, 2013 4:37 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:I'll say this, when Pitt Brown is your Dime safety it might be time to ditch the Dime or find a new safety. That was a very questionable "scheme and taent" based call from jump.

I mean now Pitt is starting so at least the Bucks have that going for them...


Again, I point to scheme. Your scheme has to match your personnel.
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Re: Defensive Backs

Unread postby furls » Tue Oct 08, 2013 4:41 pm

Cover 4 Pattern Matching is pretty much about as good as it gets for defending modern pass defenses, but you MUST HAVE THE RIGHT PERSONNEL. If 1/2 of the OSU DB recruits from the last 2 classes pan out they will be able to run this in 2015. Until then, they need to shelf it.

If running a DIME requires you to put Pitt Brown on the field. You should shelve it in favor of something you can actually do well.

If Tyvis Powell doesn't make some leaps at STAR OSU needs to seriously consider either replacing him or going to a straight 4-3... oh wait, that puts Curtis Grant on the field. FUCK.
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Re: Defensive Backs

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Tue Oct 08, 2013 4:43 pm

furls wrote:Cover 4 Pattern Matching is pretty much about as good as it gets for defending modern pass defenses, but you MUST HAVE THE RIGHT PERSONNEL. If 1/2 of the OSU DB recruits from the last 2 classes pan out they will be able to run this in 2015. Until then, they need to shelf it.

If running a DIME requires you to put Pitt Brown on the field. You should shelve it in favor of something you can actually do well.

If Tyvis Powell doesn't make some leaps at STAR OSU needs to seriously consider either replacing him or going to a straight 4-3... oh wait, that puts Curtis Grant on the field. FUCK.


^ this is kind of my point. I get that scheme needs to match talent but where is the damn talent at right now that can guard the pass? If Roby were a lock down man corner they would probably be able to get away with some things but he isn't right now and that is taking away any flexibility they may have had.

They have a lot of pieces on this current D but none of them complete any one puzzle.
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Re: Defensive Backs

Unread postby peeker643 » Tue Oct 08, 2013 4:46 pm

pup wrote:Let's not act like all of the same things were not being said after one game with Clowney.

So Clowney is dogging it 7 days a week and Roby is only doing it 6 days...but at least he is showing up on Saturday!

danwismar wrote:
pup wrote:So we can say Clowney is...but Roby isn't?


So far Roby isn't excusing himself from entire games with questionable injuries.


Too bad.


Meh... good for Clowney. If it wasn' for 1950 rules governing athletics that were implemented before conference TV networks and the NFL and NCAA blowing each other to protect the NFL feeder system, Clowney wouldn't have been forced to make one of two bad choices. He'd be in the NFL making money and not going through this shit bag display of amateurism.

Kid's protecting a $50 million future however he can while getting access to the best food and training he can get fr nothing. He shouldn't have to sit a year without scholarship/pay and good if people get pissed. Maybe it'll help change shit and bring these assholes into the late 20th century, if not modern times.

But if you think this will affect his draft status I think you're as naive as the people who think his scholarship is of equal value to his immediate future earnings.
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Re: Defensive Backs

Unread postby pod2dawg » Tue Oct 08, 2013 4:49 pm

Wonder why he doesn't just quit like the TE from Oregon?
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Re: Defensive Backs

Unread postby furls » Tue Oct 08, 2013 4:49 pm

The only place on the D with Talent and depth is DL. I wonder what Joel Hale or Chris Carter would do in coverage? Maybe we can get 7 DL on the field at the same time.

That is why I advocate for turning the dogs loose on the DL, particularly against dink and dunk spread teams as a measure to protect the secondary. At no point should Fickell and Co. think to themselves, "Well this 8th man in coverage should be much more useful than the 2 seconds we are surrendering to the QB in the pocket." We don't have a useful 6th DB.

If it was me, I would line up Spence and Marcus outside and play Bennett/Bosa and Washington inside as much as possible against pass happy teams like Indiana, Cal and NW. I would also blitz Curtis Grant nearly every play.
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Re: Defensive Backs

Unread postby furls » Tue Oct 08, 2013 4:53 pm

peeker643 wrote:
pup wrote:Let's not act like all of the same things were not being said after one game with Clowney.

So Clowney is dogging it 7 days a week and Roby is only doing it 6 days...but at least he is showing up on Saturday!

danwismar wrote:
pup wrote:So we can say Clowney is...but Roby isn't?


So far Roby isn't excusing himself from entire games with questionable injuries.


Too bad.


Meh... good for Clowney. If it wasn' for 1950 rules governing athletics that were implemented before conference TV networks and the NFL and NCAA blowing each other to protect the NFL feeder system, Clowney wouldn't have been forced to make one of two bad choices. He'd be in the NFL making money and not going through this shit bag display of amateurism.

Kid's protecting a $50 million future however he can while getting access to the best food and training he can get fr nothing. He shouldn't have to sit a year without scholarship/pay and good if people get pissed. Maybe it'll help change shit and bring these assholes into the late 20th century, if not modern times.

But if you think this will affect his draft status I think you're as naive as the people who think his scholarship is of equal value to his immediate future earnings.


I am not an NFL GM, but it is not as clear to me now that he is the #1 overall player. I just don't think I could draft a guy that quit on his team. I believe that is one of those moments where you get some insight into a guy's soul. With the #1 pick you have choices that have equal (or near equal) ability and better character.
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Re: Defensive Backs

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Tue Oct 08, 2013 4:53 pm

furls wrote:The only place on the D with Talent and depth is DL. I wonder what Joel Hale or Chris Carter would do in coverage? Maybe we can get 7 DL on the field at the same time.

That is why I advocate for turning the dogs loose on the DL, particularly against dink and dunk spread teams as a measure to protect the secondary. At no point should Fickell and Co. think to themselves, "Well this 8th man in coverage should be much more useful than the 2 seconds we are surrendering to the QB in the pocket." We don't have a useful 6th DB.

If it was me, I would line up Spence and Marcus outside and play Bennett/Bosa and Washington inside as much as possible against pass happy teams like Indiana, Cal and NW. I would also blitz Curtis Grant nearly every play.


And get bubble screened/3 step dropped to death?

I agree that you mention the best approach given the situation, but it's far from a great approach...

I'm in the "please get your head out of your ass Roby" and "please put on 15 pounds so you can tackle RBs Vonn Bell" camp.
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Re: Defensive Backs

Unread postby furls » Tue Oct 08, 2013 4:56 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:
furls wrote:The only place on the D with Talent and depth is DL. I wonder what Joel Hale or Chris Carter would do in coverage? Maybe we can get 7 DL on the field at the same time.

That is why I advocate for turning the dogs loose on the DL, particularly against dink and dunk spread teams as a measure to protect the secondary. At no point should Fickell and Co. think to themselves, "Well this 8th man in coverage should be much more useful than the 2 seconds we are surrendering to the QB in the pocket." We don't have a useful 6th DB.

If it was me, I would line up Spence and Marcus outside and play Bennett/Bosa and Washington inside as much as possible against pass happy teams like Indiana, Cal and NW. I would also blitz Curtis Grant nearly every play.


And get bubble screened/3 step dropped to death?

I agree that you mention the best approach given the situation, but it's far from a great approach...

I'm in the "please get your head out of your ass Roby" and "please put on 15 pounds so you can tackle RBs Vonn Bell" camp.


Amen.
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Re: Defensive Backs

Unread postby pod2dawg » Wed Oct 09, 2013 11:07 am

^^^ You guys have analyzed the state d'affaires of the secondary quite well and have come to the same conclusion the coaching staff has.
Better to play soft on the corners. Pray for some improvement in the middle of the field. Hope the youngsters are what their press clippings say. Count on the front 7 to stop the run. Blitz for effect. Count on college QBs to make a mistake. Hope Roby gets it together.
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Re: Defensive Backs

Unread postby furls » Wed Oct 09, 2013 2:49 pm

I am saying you shouldn't play soft on the corners because it undermines your pressure when there are readily available safety valves, but in general I agree with the rest.

Playing soft on the corners and conceding short routes doesn't make sense when your CBs are still getting beat down the field and are missing the tackles (mostly this just applies to B-Rad).
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Re: Defensive Backs

Unread postby neoleo » Thu Oct 10, 2013 9:19 am

furls wrote:I am saying you shouldn't play soft on the corners because it undermines your pressure when there are readily available safety valves, but in general I agree with the rest.

Playing soft on the corners and conceding short routes doesn't make sense when your CBs are still getting beat down the field and are missing the tackles (mostly this just applies to B-Rad).


Completely agree with Furls here. I bolded the missed tackles part because that's my biggest pet peave with this defense, and it's been a problem for a few years now. One of the strengths of the Ds under Tressel was tackling. That sounds so stupid to even say, but it's been highlighted the past 3 years after seeing some really (really) bad tackling teams. Even Shazier, an AA linebacker, is not a good form tackler. He just runs into guys really hard and fast and hopes they fall down. Bryant has used the same strategy most of his career. Hopefully they start spending more time on the fundamentals of the form tackle because I've seen a lot of Deon Sanders wanna-be garbage out there, and it's become a bigger problem now with our back 7's inability to cover anyone.
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Re: Defensive Backs

Unread postby pod2dawg » Thu Oct 10, 2013 10:05 am

OK, but Eiyo's point..until you have competent Corners those bubble screens can go 70 yds in a hurry. So we count on mayhem in the front 7. 16-0.
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Re: Defensive Backs

Unread postby furls » Thu Oct 10, 2013 10:38 am

I would say our best shot as a D is to prevent completions, we can no longer count on 3 yard receptions getting 0 YAC. This team is going to have to accept that CBs may get beat deep, but the best hope is to take away the short completions because even those are going for big/intermediate gains. Pressure significantly impacts the vertical passing game, but that same pressure is undermined by giving an easy out.

We need chaos in the front 7 to protect the back 4.
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Re: Defensive Backs

Unread postby peeker643 » Thu Oct 10, 2013 10:48 am

furls wrote:I would say our best shot as a D is to prevent completions, we can no longer count on 3 yard receptions getting 0 YAC. This team is going to have to accept that CBs may get beat deep, but the best hope is to take away the short completions because even those are going for big/intermediate gains. Pressure significantly impacts the vertical passing game, but that same pressure is undermined by giving an easy out.

We need chaos in the front 7 to protect the back 4.


Two weeks between N'Western and Iowa games. That's a lot of practice and prep time. Hopefully someone steps up and steps out in the secondary and/or the staff gets to work on those issues.
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Re: Defensive Backs

Unread postby jb » Thu Oct 10, 2013 11:21 am

peeker643 wrote:
furls wrote:I would say our best shot as a D is to prevent completions, we can no longer count on 3 yard receptions getting 0 YAC. This team is going to have to accept that CBs may get beat deep, but the best hope is to take away the short completions because even those are going for big/intermediate gains. Pressure significantly impacts the vertical passing game, but that same pressure is undermined by giving an easy out.

We need chaos in the front 7 to protect the back 4.


Two weeks between N'Western and Iowa games. That's a lot of practice and prep time. Hopefully someone steps up and steps out in the secondary and/or the staff gets to work on those issues.



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Re: Defensive Backs

Unread postby furls » Thu Oct 10, 2013 10:03 pm

Ross at 11W agrees with me. He is smart.

Ohio State thus must rely upon their defensive line to pressure the quarterback to help their linebackers and safeties in coverage. This would also help the Buckeye defense establish an identity. All too often it seems as though Ohio State is veering from bringing 7 man pressures and playing man coverage one series to dropping eight the next. A defense must obviously keep an offense off-balance, but the Buckeyes need a framework to rely upon in passing situations. Building upon their defensive line to stop the run and pressure the quarterback is a good starting point. This alone will not eliminate explosive plays, but it is at least a building block


http://www.elevenwarriors.com/2013/10/2 ... stern#more
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Re: Defensive Backs

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Mon Oct 14, 2013 12:13 pm

Not sure if the replay is available anywhere, but Withers part of this weeks "weekly" presser is worth listening to. Not sure what it means, but there are data points worth noting in this.

(I'm listening, as always, obviously)
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Re: Defensive Backs

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Mon Oct 14, 2013 12:37 pm

PS: FUDU, Drayton just said point blank Jordan Hall (personally) wasn't comfortable enough to play against NW and Urban already said he wouldn't play this week. The career of paper cut injuries continues.....
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