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Let's make a run for the whole thing...

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Let's make a run for the whole thing...

Unread postby bookelly » Tue Sep 24, 2013 4:38 am

This year feels like magic to me. Ubaldo slinging, Masterson (rested) on his way back. Salazar on a low pitch count to keep him rested (you can put CarCar in to back him up), and Tomlin/Kluber/Zack is a nice bit of stuff there. Plus a pen that has settled nicely since the starters have been so solid.

The offense is capable of so many different approaches and the guys know this. They can hit you from the left or right. They may not have a "power" guy but they can all yard mistakes. And they all know that almost every one of them is gonna be playing in the game at some point.

It's a fun and focused team to watch play for sure. A credit to Tito and the whole staff. Regardless of the outcome...I sure love our chances. :thumb up:
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Re: Let's make a run for the whole thing...

Unread postby Dnthateonthepronk » Tue Sep 24, 2013 7:10 am

God damn it, you just cursed the whole thing. They are gonna lose 5 in a row now ::doh::
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Re: Let's make a run for the whole thing...

Unread postby Govbarney » Tue Sep 24, 2013 10:14 am

Lets work on the Wild Card first...

That being said who starts that game? Ubaldo?

He starts today. If he starts again on Sunday that's only three days rest to the WC game Wednesday. But if he doesn't start Wednesday that's a 8 day break.

Could Masterson be ready... even if he is I doubt you throw him into the fire in anything other then relief.

Then what if there is a one game playoff, shit really gets muddled then?
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Re: Let's make a run for the whole thing...

Unread postby bookelly » Tue Sep 24, 2013 10:44 pm

Dnthateonthepronk wrote:God damn it, you just cursed the whole thing. They are gonna lose 5 in a row now ::doh::


I guess Giambi doesn't care about any fucking jinx. :dingle: :nanner: :cheers: :group:
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Re: Let's make a run for the whole thing...

Unread postby Spin » Wed Sep 25, 2013 7:54 am

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Re: Let's make a run for the whole thing...

Unread postby 1Perry » Wed Sep 25, 2013 1:20 pm

Hopefully it doesn't come down to the last day and Ubaldo can sit out the last game. Then hopefully the wild card game doesn't come down to a 1 run lead in the 9th.
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Re: Let's make a run for the whole thing...

Unread postby bookelly » Thu Sep 26, 2013 2:32 am

I think Masterson just became the new closer. They'll go with Ubalso, Salazar, KaZmir, and Kulber with CarCar +Justin in the pen.

That's what I would do at least.
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Re: Let's make a run for the whole thing...

Unread postby peeker643 » Thu Sep 26, 2013 9:42 am

bookelly wrote:I think Masterson just became the new closer. They'll go with Ubalso, Salazar, KaZmir, and Kulber with CarCar +Justin in the pen.

That's what I would do at least.


You guys are nuts.

Like it or not, CP is the guy.

Had Cabrera not singled in two runs in the 7th or whatever, Masterson doesn't even pitch Wednesday night.

And IMO, he shouldn't have any way. Not a fan of putting him out there after the rehab, in 55* and in a role he hasn't been in in two and a half years.

I understand why they did it, but I don't think I would have run him out there for that. SPs are creatures of habit and routine.

Not to mention there are innings when Masterson is way more erratic than Perez ever was.

You wanna throw a name in the ring then I'd look at Salazar. But I still don't see CP NOT being the guy Tito goes to the rest of the year, however long that may be.
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Re: Let's make a run for the whole thing...

Unread postby googleeph2 » Thu Sep 26, 2013 10:04 am

I look at them lifting Pestano and say- why be married to Perez?

We knew Masterson was going to be used in relief this last week of the season.

If CP remains the closer, they need to keep someone like Carrasco warming. If he gets a long leash, I'll be channeling Monty Python, wishing to complain in the strongest possible terms.

Are they gonna use Masterson, or not? Assuming yes. I don't see how starting him in cold weather is any better for him than using him in relief.

Recently, CP has been really awful. This really reminds me of M Jackson/J Mesa.
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Re: Let's make a run for the whole thing...

Unread postby peeker643 » Thu Sep 26, 2013 10:14 am

googleeph2 wrote:I look at them lifting Pestano and say- why be married to Perez?

We knew Masterson was going to be used in relief this last week of the season.

If CP remains the closer, they need to keep someone like Carrasco warming. If he gets a long leash, I'll be channeling Monty Python, wishing to complain in the strongest possible terms.

Are they gonna use Masterson, or not? Assuming yes. I don't see how starting him in cold weather is any better for him than using him in relief.

Recently, CP has been really awful.


Because he's been a starter for three years. Because being a starter for three years one gets accustomed (as does the arm and body) to the routine that a starter utilizes to get ready every 5th day. To knowing EXACTLY what time you'll be throwing that first pitch and detailing every minute of the day to getting loose and ready for that specific time.

I'm not trying to baby these guys, but I don't run my ace out there on a cold night, coming off an oblique injury. You want Masterson to get a couple innings then start him against the White Sox or Twins and have Carrasco or someone whose pitched out of the pen more recently ready to go in inning 3.

And leash length is useless with closer. You have one or you don't. If you need a leash the chances are shit is already bad and not likely to get better. Like it or not the Indians have a harder throwing, less likable version of Bob Wickman as their closer. He won't be here next year, but he's what you got this year. That's not changing IMO.
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Re: Let's make a run for the whole thing...

Unread postby googleeph2 » Thu Sep 26, 2013 10:25 am

Because he's been a starter for three years. Because being a starter for three years one gets accustomed (as does the arm and body) to the routine that a starter utilizes to get ready every 5th day. To knowing EXACTLY what time you'll be throwing that first pitch and detailing every minute of the day to getting loose and ready for that specific time.

I'm not trying to baby these guys, but I don't run my ace out there on a cold night, coming off an oblique injury. You want Masterson to get a couple innings then start him against the White Sox or Twins and have Carrasco or someone whose pitched out of the pen more recently ready to go in inning 3.

And leash length is useless with closer. You have one or you don't. If you need a leash the chances are shit is already bad and not likely to get better. Like it or not the Indians have a harder throwing, less likable version of Bob Wickman as their closer. He won't be here next year, but he's what you got this year. That's not changing IMO.


Fair point on the starter role. I just see it differently. This is like using starters in relief in elimination games in the playoffs/WS.

I'd say if you run him out in relief and he tweaks the oblique, shut him down and let him rest up for next year. You tried.

I do want a short leash on Perez. Francona had no trouble removing him after he coughed up the lead the other day. Well, even I saw the slow moving train wreck before it got to that point. CP didn;t have it. Why wait- closer's pride? Eff that. He has not earned that.


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Re: Let's make a run for the whole thing...

Unread postby peeker643 » Thu Sep 26, 2013 10:39 am

googleeph2 wrote:Fair point on the starter role. I just see it differently. This is like using starters in relief in elimination games in the playoffs/WS.

I'd say if you run him out in relief and he tweaks the oblique, shut him down and let him rest up for next year. You tried.

I do want a short leash on Perez. Francona had no trouble removing him after he coughed up the lead the other day. Well, even I saw the slow moving train wreck before it got to that point. CP didn;t have it. Why wait- closer's pride? Eff that. He has not earned that.


Man, this is fun.


But it's not the playoffs or the World Series and you're not using a healthy guy who just happens to be working on short rest or in an emergency 'Win or Go Home' setting there.

He hasn't pitched in a month.

That's why I didn't necessarily like it.

And like I said, I understand why and Asdrubal allowed it when he increased the lead from three runs to five runs (which as great to give Smith and CP a night off before four in MN). There are no games when they can relax and work Masterson back in and get him some innings. Not with a one game lead and Texas nipping at the heels. But I think it was taking a chance with a guy in an unfamiliar role (over past three years) on a cold night, in front of a big crowd that had him amped up even more.

I'd rather he stretch it out in a simulated game.
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Re: Let's make a run for the whole thing...

Unread postby skatingtripods » Thu Sep 26, 2013 11:20 am

If this team makes it to the ALDS, does Masterson even make the roster? Personally, I say no, because there's no role for him. But, if that's the case, why even trot Masterson back out there in 2013? I'd consider Masterson a waste of a roster spot because his arm strength and control are still going to be off since he won't get steady work. You can't use him in any kind of leverage situation.

I agree with Peeker. Good to see him back out there, but it's probably an unnecessary risk. Jake Westbrook altered his delivery and arm slot to get back quicker from an oblique so he could throw pain-free. It ended up with Tommy John surgery. I understand that's a VERY extreme case, but there's really no upside to sending Masterson out there in game conditions on a chilly night. Better off extending him in pen sessions and simulated games and then potentially considering him for a start in the ALCS if you somehow get that far.

I'd have much rather seen Tomlin, Carrasco, or a second inning from Albers last night.
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Re: Let's make a run for the whole thing...

Unread postby skatingtripods » Thu Sep 26, 2013 11:26 am

googleeph2 wrote:I do want a short leash on Perez. Francona had no trouble removing him after he coughed up the lead the other day. Well, even I saw the slow moving train wreck before it got to that point. CP didn;t have it. Why wait- closer's pride? Eff that. He has not earned that.


This is way off. Perez gave up an opposite field home run to a guy who is generally a dead pull hitter. That was just a good swing from Viciedo. Shit happens. He struck the next two guys out. He threw de Aza a get-me-over fastball and he punished it. That was the big mistake.

You wait because Perez is your closer. That's his job. For better or worse, he's your guy. This wasn't some scenario where he walked the bases loaded or gave up three straight line drive singles to tie the game. A guy took a good swing to tie the game and he lost focus on the first pitch to another guy. He probably didn't expect de Aza to swing at the first pitch, since he's not a very aggressive hitter. Lesson learned.

Had Cabrera not driven in those two insurance runs last night, Perez would have been right back out there on the mound in the 9th. And that's the correct decision.
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Re: Let's make a run for the whole thing...

Unread postby peeker643 » Thu Sep 26, 2013 11:42 am

Preston Guilmet drew the short straw on Rookie Costumes that had to be worn on trip to Minnesota.

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Re: Let's make a run for the whole thing...

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Thu Sep 26, 2013 11:50 am

Ya know, for somebody that is completely ambivalent and uninspired by this Indians team you sure have written a lot of words about them recently Peeks.
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Re: Let's make a run for the whole thing...

Unread postby googleeph2 » Thu Sep 26, 2013 12:06 pm

skatingtripods wrote:Had Cabrera not driven in those two insurance runs last night, Perez would have been right back out there on the mound in the 9th. And that's the correct decision.


No disagreement. But he didn;t, and he wasn;t, and Masterson looked really good in the 9th. Really good.

The Westbrook thing you mention is scary. But the stakes are high enough right now for me to use masty as my closer. Your scout friend Bernie Pleskoff did call it "a very solid option," as well.
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Re: Let's make a run for the whole thing...

Unread postby peeker643 » Thu Sep 26, 2013 12:15 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:Ya know, for somebody that is completely ambivalent and uninspired by this Indians team you sure have written a lot of words about them recently Peeks.


Like I said, I watch 'em all and go to as many as time allows, but I have no allusions about what they are or where they'll likely end up.

I just don't have high expectations. Doesn't mean I don't enjoy their chase or appreciate their efforts.

Just don't think it will be enough.

And it's a defense mechanism against the inevitable... ;-) ;) :wink:
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Re: Let's make a run for the whole thing...

Unread postby Kingpin74 » Thu Sep 26, 2013 12:16 pm

I just knocked on a wooden desk for a minute straight, but what spots would be in question on the playoff roster for Masterson? I know he's kind of rushing back from a tough injury, but I like having him in long relief in case one of the starters goes south early in a game (or gets tossed Doc Gooden style, which is still awesome 15 years later). Salazar and Kluber are still very green and are on lower pitch counts in the first place.

Starting Pitchers(4)- Ubaldo, Salazar, Kluber, Kazmir
Relief Pitchers(7)- McAllister, Allen, Perez, Smith, Scrabble, Shaw, Hill or Hagadone
Infielders(5)- Swisher, Kipnis, Cabrera, Chisenhall, Aviles
Outfielders(4)- Brantley, Stubbs, Bourn, Raburn
Designated Hitter(1)- GIAMBINO
Catchers(2)- Gomes, Santana

So that leaves 2 spots. You probably need one more position player for defense and pinch running, so does Jose Ramirez make it? Or do you include Carson or Kubel to have one more outfielder? Then you probably have to pick one more pitcher out of Albers, Masterson, whoever's left between Hagadone and Hill, and Tomlin. And maybe for a short series you wouldn't need McAllister so that could give you one more spot.
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Re: Let's make a run for the whole thing...

Unread postby peeker643 » Thu Sep 26, 2013 12:26 pm

Kingpin74 wrote:I just knocked on a wooden desk for a minute straight, but what spots would be in question on the playoff roster for Masterson? I know he's kind of rushing back from a tough injury, but I like having him in long relief in case one of the starters goes south early in a game (or gets tossed Doc Gooden style, which is still awesome 15 years later). Salazar and Kluber are still very green and are on lower pitch counts in the first place.

Starting Pitchers(4)- Ubaldo, Salazar, Kluber, Kazmir
Relief Pitchers(7)- McAllister, Allen, Perez, Smith, Scrabble, Shaw, Hill or Hagadone
Infielders(5)- Swisher, Kipnis, Cabrera, Chisenhall, Aviles
Outfielders(4)- Brantley, Stubbs, Bourn, Raburn
Designated Hitter(1)- GIAMBINO
Catchers(2)- Gomes, Santana

So that leaves 2 spots. You probably need one more position player for defense and pinch running, so does Jose Ramirez make it? Or do you include Carson or Kubel to have one more outfielder? Then you probably have to pick one more pitcher out of Albers, Masterson, whoever's left between Hagadone and Hill, and Tomlin. And maybe for a short series you wouldn't need McAllister so that could give you one more spot.


Personally, today, I'd have Carrasco there and I'd be surprised if Albers wasn't too. Might be a reach but I also wouldn't be shocked if Carson was there, especially if Bourn's wrist is a question.

And where the hell is Jason Kubel these days?
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Re: Let's make a run for the whole thing...

Unread postby skatingtripods » Thu Sep 26, 2013 12:44 pm

googleeph2 wrote:No disagreement. But he didn;t, and he wasn;t, and Masterson looked really good in the 9th. Really good.

The Westbrook thing you mention is scary. But the stakes are high enough right now for me to use masty as my closer. Your scout friend Bernie Pleskoff did call it "a very solid option," as well.


Masterson's career platoon splits aren't good enough for me to consider him in a closing role at any point, let alone now. Masterson's FB control was off yesterday. Can't evaluate Masterson on the 9th inning of a 7-2 game with a team that was just ready to get on a plane and didn't give a shit. Slider was sharp. Fastball was off. Needs the fastball to pitch off of.

Masterson's release point can get erratic. He can get out of it with double play ground balls, but his walks would be a concern for me. You can hide walks as a starter because you have more time to work out what's wrong and get back on track. If you're fighting with your release point out of the pen, which is very plausible given that Masterson has been a starter for three years, it's hard to find in a short amount of time.
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Re: Let's make a run for the whole thing...

Unread postby skatingtripods » Thu Sep 26, 2013 12:49 pm

peeker643 wrote:
Kingpin74 wrote:I just knocked on a wooden desk for a minute straight, but what spots would be in question on the playoff roster for Masterson? I know he's kind of rushing back from a tough injury, but I like having him in long relief in case one of the starters goes south early in a game (or gets tossed Doc Gooden style, which is still awesome 15 years later). Salazar and Kluber are still very green and are on lower pitch counts in the first place.

Starting Pitchers(4)- Ubaldo, Salazar, Kluber, Kazmir
Relief Pitchers(7)- McAllister, Allen, Perez, Smith, Scrabble, Shaw, Hill or Hagadone
Infielders(5)- Swisher, Kipnis, Cabrera, Chisenhall, Aviles
Outfielders(4)- Brantley, Stubbs, Bourn, Raburn
Designated Hitter(1)- GIAMBINO
Catchers(2)- Gomes, Santana

So that leaves 2 spots. You probably need one more position player for defense and pinch running, so does Jose Ramirez make it? Or do you include Carson or Kubel to have one more outfielder? Then you probably have to pick one more pitcher out of Albers, Masterson, whoever's left between Hagadone and Hill, and Tomlin. And maybe for a short series you wouldn't need McAllister so that could give you one more spot.


Personally, today, I'd have Carrasco there and I'd be surprised if Albers wasn't too. Might be a reach but I also wouldn't be shocked if Carson was there, especially if Bourn's wrist is a question.


Agree on Carson and Albers. Carson's a good pinch runner. I don't know about McAllister. I think you possibly keep McAllister around with Salazar getting a start. There's no foul territory there at Fenway if he started there and the Jake is pretty standard. Red Sox hitters are patient enough to spit on the splitter. He'll rack up a huge pitch count pretty quickly and you don't want to burn out your pen.
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Re: Let's make a run for the whole thing...

Unread postby pup » Thu Sep 26, 2013 2:16 pm

Keep Masterson.

Game 4 start Salazar, let him go 4. Bring in Masty for next 4. Make that the plan and Masty can prepare like it is a start.
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Re: Let's make a run for the whole thing...

Unread postby leadpipe » Thu Sep 26, 2013 4:30 pm

There is no way in holy hell Justin Masterson is not on the playoff roster.

There is no way in holy hell Chris Perez isn't the closer.
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Re: Let's make a run for the whole thing...

Unread postby 1Perry » Thu Sep 26, 2013 7:32 pm

I don't think for a second that Francona plans on using Masterson as a the closer. Do I think he might go to someone other than Perez if his head isn't in it? Yeah, but I could see them using Masterson in a long relief role.

If they make it far enough, I could see him starting. Masterson v Colon. That would be a cool book end to Colon v Martinez 1999.
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Re: Let's make a run for the whole thing...

Unread postby Erie Warrior » Thu Sep 26, 2013 7:59 pm

pup wrote:Keep Masterson.

Game 4 start Salazar, let him go 4. Bring in Masty for next 4. Make that the plan and Masty can prepare like it is a start.


I kinda like this. Unless Masty is all elbows and assholes, in which case it's a terrible, terrible plan.
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Re: Let's make a run for the whole thing...

Unread postby motherscratcher » Thu Sep 26, 2013 8:25 pm

leadpipe wrote:There is no way in holy hell Justin Masterson is not on the playoff roster.

There is no way in holy hell Chris Perez isn't the closer.


It really is this simple. No way Masty isn't playing. It isn't like Masty has been out since late June. The dude missed 3 weeks. If he wants the ball, you give it to him.
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Re: Let's make a run for the whole thing...

Unread postby OldDawg » Fri Sep 27, 2013 12:41 am

leadpipe wrote:There is no way in holy hell Justin Masterson is not on the playoff roster.

There is no way in holy hell Chris Perez isn't the closer.


You still THAT sure?
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Re: Let's make a run for the whole thing...

Unread postby 1Perry » Fri Sep 27, 2013 7:50 am

After the game, Francona told reporters that Perez stopped in his office and said, "I don't want to be cost the team wins because I don't have my location."

If that was a concession speech, it's not coming at a great time. The Indians have three games left in the season. The narrow win kept their hold on the second wild-card spot as Tampa Bay beat the Yankees to retain the top position and Texas beat the Angels to stay one game behind the Indians.

The Indians' options to replace Perez at this point of the season are not good. Former ace Justin Masterson, now working in the bullpen, could get the ball. Maybe it will be Smith or Bryan Shaw, who earned the victory on Thursday. The one guy it doesn't sound like it's going to be is Perez.


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Re: Let's make a run for the whole thing...

Unread postby jb » Fri Sep 27, 2013 8:21 am

peeker643 wrote:
bookelly wrote:I think Masterson just became the new closer. They'll go with Ubalso, Salazar, KaZmir, and Kulber with CarCar +Justin in the pen.

That's what I would do at least.


You guys are nuts.

Like it or not, CP is the guy.

Had Cabrera not singled in two runs in the 7th or whatever, Masterson doesn't even pitch Wednesday night.

And IMO, he shouldn't have any way. Not a fan of putting him out there after the rehab, in 55* and in a role he hasn't been in in two and a half years.

I understand why they did it, but I don't think I would have run him out there for that. SPs are creatures of habit and routine.

Not to mention there are innings when Masterson is way more erratic than Perez ever was.

You wanna throw a name in the ring then I'd look at Salazar. But I still don't see CP NOT being the guy Tito goes to the rest of the year, however long that may be.



Brought to you by the mentality that killed the most realistic chance àt a WS since Harry Truman.

IDC why or how CP is unreliable. He is. You can't have this heading into post season. The whole mentality of "Roles" is misguided .

When LaRussa invented this thing it was predicated on one principle. Statistically odds are good any schmuck can get through one inning scoreless. So take any schmuck so long as he's fresh and batters haven't faced him yet and the probability escalates. This whole "closer mentality" myth is folk lore.

CP or any good closer should be near flawless. A couple or 3 blown saves a season. He ain't there.

This team is aweite. In pure baseball the season would be over. Now in the NHL Era MLB they have a slim chance to stay hot and make a run. Odds are great at this point this is just a culminàtion of this seasons theme: stày hot vs da bums and fold like a cheap lawn chair vs good teams. But blowing games by trotting out crap in a statistically easy job is just like putting a shotgun to your own foot.

Just put any reliever in instead of Perez that isn't strictly a matchup guy or run the 9 with your set up men like its the 8th. Masty as a starter isn't a good fit routine wise. For 100 years the concept of closer didn't exist. If you don't have one don't use one. Or put in someone not imploding.
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Re: Let's make a run for the whole thing...

Unread postby skatingtripods » Fri Sep 27, 2013 9:21 am

Only three full-time closers, Greg Holland, Grant Balfour and Joe Nathan, have just three blown saves. A handful have four. The majority have 5+.

In the NHL era, please. Quit talking out of your ass. More than half of the NHL teams make the playoffs, some with sub-.500 records. One-third of the league does in MLB and, as we've seen, it takes winning 55%+ of your games to get in. Really big difference.
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Re: Let's make a run for the whole thing...

Unread postby peeker643 » Fri Sep 27, 2013 9:37 am

jb wrote:
peeker643 wrote:
bookelly wrote:I think Masterson just became the new closer. They'll go with Ubalso, Salazar, KaZmir, and Kulber with CarCar +Justin in the pen.

That's what I would do at least.


You guys are nuts.

Like it or not, CP is the guy.

Had Cabrera not singled in two runs in the 7th or whatever, Masterson doesn't even pitch Wednesday night.

And IMO, he shouldn't have any way. Not a fan of putting him out there after the rehab, in 55* and in a role he hasn't been in in two and a half years.

I understand why they did it, but I don't think I would have run him out there for that. SPs are creatures of habit and routine.

Not to mention there are innings when Masterson is way more erratic than Perez ever was.

You wanna throw a name in the ring then I'd look at Salazar. But I still don't see CP NOT being the guy Tito goes to the rest of the year, however long that may be.



Brought to you by the mentality that killed the most realistic chance àt a WS since Harry Truman.

IDC why or how CP is unreliable. He is. You can't have this heading into post season. The whole mentality of "Roles" is misguided .

When LaRussa invented this thing it was predicated on one principle. Statistically odds are good any schmuck can get through one inning scoreless. So take any schmuck so long as he's fresh and batters haven't faced him yet and the probability escalates. This whole "closer mentality" myth is folk lore.

CP or any good closer should be near flawless. A couple or 3 blown saves a season. He ain't there.

This team is aweite. In pure baseball the season would be over. Now in the NHL Era MLB they have a slim chance to stay hot and make a run. Odds are great at this point this is just a culminàtion of this seasons theme: stày hot vs da bums and fold like a cheap lawn chair vs good teams. But blowing games by trotting out crap in a statistically easy job is just like putting a shotgun to your own foot.

Just put any reliever in instead of Perez that isn't strictly a matchup guy or run the 9 with your set up men like its the 8th. Masty as a starter isn't a good fit routine wise. For 100 years the concept of closer didn't exist. If you don't have one don't use one. Or put in someone not imploding.


If he's a basket case then Tito makes a move. Almost has to if Perez asks him to.

But Tito ain't making it without Perez asking.
For one, he's not that guy as a manager. And more importantly, you're not making one move. You're making three or four moves, which so many casual fans just don't seem to understand.

It ain't plug-n-play and just slide a guy into the spot. It's sliding a guy into a spot who hasn't done it at least this season and then it's sliding guys up spots where they've not pitched all year.

You wouldn't think that would be a real big issue unless you actually understand the game and the knuckleheads that play it.

If he cries and tells you he needs a break then you have to get him out of there. Otherwise it wasn't happening. Because Francona actually does understand the game.
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Re: Let's make a run for the whole thing...

Unread postby 1Perry » Fri Sep 27, 2013 9:37 am

skatingtripods wrote:Only three full-time closers, Greg Holland, Grant Balfour and Joe Nathan, have just three blown saves. A handful have four. The majority have 5+.


Perez admits he has lost it. It's in his head. As has been noted, you don't try and fix this when every single game counts.
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Re: Let's make a run for the whole thing...

Unread postby skatingtripods » Fri Sep 27, 2013 9:46 am

1Perry wrote:
skatingtripods wrote:Only three full-time closers, Greg Holland, Grant Balfour and Joe Nathan, have just three blown saves. A handful have four. The majority have 5+.


Perez admits he has lost it. It's in his head. As has been noted, you don't try and fix this when every single game counts.


My response was to JB's post who believes that "any good closer should be near flawless" with no more than two or three blown saves. That's simply not the case. Plenty of good closers blow 5+ games a season.

Had nothing to do with Perez's comments.

Ironically, of Perez's five blown saves, he has a blown save win in two of them and we came back and won two of them. He only has one blown save loss this season.

Not that it means anything. Just a random stat.
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Re: Let's make a run for the whole thing...

Unread postby 1Perry » Fri Sep 27, 2013 10:21 am

skatingtripods wrote:
1Perry wrote:
skatingtripods wrote:Only three full-time closers, Greg Holland, Grant Balfour and Joe Nathan, have just three blown saves. A handful have four. The majority have 5+.


Perez admits he has lost it. It's in his head. As has been noted, you don't try and fix this when every single game counts.


My response was to JB's post who believes that "any good closer should be near flawless" with no more than two or three blown saves. That's simply not the case. Plenty of good closers blow 5+ games a season.


O.K. fair enough, sorry. Perez just has me on edge. :hic:
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Re: Let's make a run for the whole thing...

Unread postby British_Pharaoh » Fri Sep 27, 2013 10:26 am

I put a tenner on the Tribe winning the WS in March 250/1 odds

I also put £5 on them taking the pennant at a very reasonable 99/1

I'm a final year student with an overdraft to pay off, I want the Indians to win it all more than anyone :D
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Re: Let's make a run for the whole thing...

Unread postby Kingpin74 » Fri Sep 27, 2013 10:43 am

I just don't understand what makes closers so sacred. His ERA is now over 6 since early August. Didn't Pestano get demoted from his 8th inning role for a lot less?
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Re: Let's make a run for the whole thing...

Unread postby OldDawg » Fri Sep 27, 2013 10:57 am

peeker643 wrote:It ain't plug-n-play and just slide a guy into the spot. It's sliding a guy into a spot who hasn't done it at least this season and then it's sliding guys up spots where they've not pitched all year.

You wouldn't think that would be a real big issue unless you actually understand the game and the knuckleheads that play it.


That's a main reason I suggested Masty for closer. Now, I don't know how good he'd be in that role. He throws pretty hard, which is a plus. However, using Peek's argument here, if you use Masty as a closer, every pitcher on staff stays in exactly their same role as they'd been in during this torrid September. Starters stay the same. Relievers stay the same. CP out. Masty in. Again, is Masty a great option as a closer... I don't know. Better than CP right now???
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Re: Let's make a run for the whole thing...

Unread postby skatingtripods » Fri Sep 27, 2013 11:00 am

Kingpin74 wrote:I just don't understand what makes closers so sacred. His ERA is now over 6 since early August. Didn't Pestano get demoted from his 8th inning role for a lot less?


Pestano also got demoted for being hurt and a mechanical mess. He's still not right.

Perez was nails for a while when he was pitching every night. He really saved this team in July. 14 appearances, 15 innings pitched, 0.60 ERA, 0.93 WHIP, 3.67 K/BB ratio. Two wins and eight saves. He had a 2.45 ERA in August if you take away one horrible appearance against Detroit where he gave up four runs and didn't record an out. One bad outing really skews a RP's ERA.

September's been a shitshow. And it's a "What have you done for me lately" business. I get that. I don't think he's hopeless, but I'm clearly in a small minority there.
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Re: Let's make a run for the whole thing...

Unread postby googleeph2 » Fri Sep 27, 2013 11:18 am

In 24 hours, thinking about this stuff has gone from entertaining to foreboding.

I also had originally liked Masterson being used late for the keeping of other roles intact.

Pluto's touting a Masty/Smith tandem as closer. Lastoria, I think, likes ALlen.

I am now leaning more toward Masty in middle relief (partly due to thoughts shared here) and playing it by ear the rest of the game.

And since you can't use him (and since Francona just recently said he's healthy), I guess you DFA Perez.
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Re: Let's make a run for the whole thing...

Unread postby scrambler » Fri Sep 27, 2013 11:22 am

This is not that uncommon. Tigers went through it as Valverde became brutal and they actually changed mid post season last year to Phil Coke. It worked in the ALCS...Coke is hardly great but he was throwing well and they changed. They got beat so bad in the World Series that a closer was not even needed for them. It's not rocket science. Whatever the reason Perez is brutal right now and he can't be used. One option is to shift Allen and Smith from the 7th and 8th to the 8th and 9th. Move Shaw up and stick Masterson in Shaw's role. Keep using the lefties in matchup one batter roles as well.

I would also consider Shaw as closer as a 2nd option...maybe even ahead of Smith. Then all you have to do is stick Masterson in Shaw's middle relief role and keep Allen and Smith what they're doing.
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Re: Let's make a run for the whole thing...

Unread postby 1Perry » Fri Sep 27, 2013 11:24 am

I doubt very seriously that Perez is DFA'd. He still may be need it just won't be in one run games and it will be a very short leash.
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Re: Let's make a run for the whole thing...

Unread postby scrambler » Fri Sep 27, 2013 11:33 am

The case for Shaw is pretty clear. He's been their best pitcher this month.

13 games
15.1 innings, 8 hits, 2 BB, 15 strikeouts, 0.00 ERA 5-0, 3 holds, 1 save.

In the end I think that makes the most sense and you keep Allen and Smith where they are. I would give the 5th and 6th to Masterson.
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Re: Let's make a run for the whole thing...

Unread postby jb » Fri Sep 27, 2013 11:45 am

peeker643 wrote:
jb wrote:
peeker643 wrote:
bookelly wrote:I think Masterson just became the new closer. They'll go with Ubalso, Salazar, KaZmir, and Kulber with CarCar +Justin in the pen.

That's what I would do at least.


You guys are nuts.

Like it or not, CP is the guy.

Had Cabrera not singled in two runs in the 7th or whatever, Masterson doesn't even pitch Wednesday night.

And IMO, he shouldn't have any way. Not a fan of putting him out there after the rehab, in 55* and in a role he hasn't been in in two and a half years.

I understand why they did it, but I don't think I would have run him out there for that. SPs are creatures of habit and routine.

Not to mention there are innings when Masterson is way more erratic than Perez ever was.

You wanna throw a name in the ring then I'd look at Salazar. But I still don't see CP NOT being the guy Tito goes to the rest of the year, however long that may be.



Brought to you by the mentality that killed the most realistic chance àt a WS since Harry Truman.

IDC why or how CP is unreliable. He is. You can't have this heading into post season. The whole mentality of "Roles" is misguided .

When LaRussa invented this thing it was predicated on one principle. Statistically odds are good any schmuck can get through one inning scoreless. So take any schmuck so long as he's fresh and batters haven't faced him yet and the probability escalates. This whole "closer mentality" myth is folk lore.

CP or any good closer should be near flawless. A couple or 3 blown saves a season. He ain't there.

This team is aweite. In pure baseball the season would be over. Now in the NHL Era MLB they have a slim chance to stay hot and make a run. Odds are great at this point this is just a culminàtion of this seasons theme: stày hot vs da bums and fold like a cheap lawn chair vs good teams. But blowing games by trotting out crap in a statistically easy job is just like putting a shotgun to your own foot.

Just put any reliever in instead of Perez that isn't strictly a matchup guy or run the 9 with your set up men like its the 8th. Masty as a starter isn't a good fit routine wise. For 100 years the concept of closer didn't exist. If you don't have one don't use one. Or put in someone not imploding.


If he's a basket case then Tito makes a move. Almost has to if Perez asks him to.

But Tito ain't making it without Perez asking.
For one, he's not that guy as a manager. And more importantly, you're not making one move. You're making three or four moves, which so many casual fans just don't seem to understand.

It ain't plug-n-play and just slide a guy into the spot. It's sliding a guy into a spot who hasn't done it at least this season and then it's sliding guys up spots where they've not pitched all year.

You wouldn't think that would be a real big issue unless you actually understand the game and the knuckleheads that play it.

If he cries and tells you he needs a break then you have to get him out of there. Otherwise it wasn't happening. Because Francona actually does understand the game.



Then Tito is the same dork as Grover for sitting on his hands while watching Mesa melt down when he clearly didn't have it that night.

Robotic BS that costs Cleveland teams titles (see also, Marty is the Drive).

Your take is folk lore. Its a game of stats. Just put in any Joe at closer that isn't a match-up guy other than Chong and play out your percentages. The rest is just chance anyway no matter how much you wanna be MLBers mystify it. The DePodesta's own you ex jocks.

As for Perez? He's clearly list it to the point any of his stats are outliers. To his credit he admits it. easiest thing for him to do would be selfish and take his lumps for his contract.

But not a starter and not Masty. I get prep cycles. That makes sense as a ghost in the machine.
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Re: Let's make a run for the whole thing...

Unread postby googleeph2 » Fri Sep 27, 2013 11:48 am

scrambler wrote:The case for Shaw is pretty clear. He's been their best pitcher this month.

13 games
15.1 innings, 8 hits, 2 BB, 15 strikeouts, 0.00 ERA 5-0, 3 holds, 1 save.

In the end I think that makes the most sense and you keep Allen and Smith where they are. I would give the 5th and 6th to Masterson.


Sold. You want to tell Tito, or do you want me to? :dingle:
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Re: Let's make a run for the whole thing...

Unread postby jb » Fri Sep 27, 2013 11:49 am

skatingtripods wrote:
1Perry wrote:
skatingtripods wrote:Only three full-time closers, Greg Holland, Grant Balfour and Joe Nathan, have just three blown saves. A handful have four. The majority have 5+.


Perez admits he has lost it. It's in his head. As has been noted, you don't try and fix this when every single game counts.


My response was to JB's post who believes that "any good closer should be near flawless" with no more than two or three blown saves. That's simply not the case. Plenty of good closers blow 5+ games a season.



Fair enough Adam. fair enough. I fully admit to cherry picking.

But there is some threashhold be it 3, 5 or 7. At some point effectiveness wanes.
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Re: Let's make a run for the whole thing...

Unread postby jb » Fri Sep 27, 2013 11:51 am

Kingpin74 wrote:I just don't understand what makes closers so sacred.


Folklore.

People like Peeker worrying that players will cry about roles.
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Re: Let's make a run for the whole thing...

Unread postby jb » Fri Sep 27, 2013 11:51 am

1Perry wrote:
skatingtripods wrote:Only three full-time closers, Greg Holland, Grant Balfour and Joe Nathan, have just three blown saves. A handful have four. The majority have 5+.


Perez admits he has lost it. It's in his head. As has been noted, you don't try and fix this when every single game counts.


This is an admirable and unselfish act.

Good for Chris.
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Re: Let's make a run for the whole thing...

Unread postby FUDU » Fri Sep 27, 2013 11:54 am

Closers, pfft.
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Re: Let's make a run for the whole thing...

Unread postby OldDawg » Fri Sep 27, 2013 12:28 pm

I have always wondered why it is that when a set-up guy has a quick, effective and dominant 8th inning he isn't just left in for the 9th anyways. He's loose. He's in game mode. He doesn't have to break into the game. He's hot and in his zone. Just leave him in to start the 9th and get him out if you smell trouble.

To me, ALWAYS going to the closer is the "managing by the book" mentality that is overdone. That mentality also tells managers to yank a red-hot RHP late in a game against a lefty batter no matter what. What about managing by how things are playing out right in front of you. Go with the hot hand.

But I'm not a baseball manager. Just a guy at a keyboard.
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