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If a tree falls in Cleveland,

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Re: If a tree falls in Cleveland,

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Thu Sep 12, 2013 2:08 pm

Tickets sold.
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Re: If a tree falls in Cleveland,

Unread postby Spin » Thu Sep 12, 2013 9:27 pm

Madre Hill, Superstar wrote:Cavs attendance in 2010-11 was 824k
Cavs attendance in 2011-12 was 525k.
Cavs attendance in 2012-13 was 663k.

Its a variety of factors, but mainly the Cavs have an Uncle Drew and the Indians don't.


Drew's been gone awhile...

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Re: If a tree falls in Cleveland,

Unread postby 1Perry » Sun Sep 15, 2013 8:08 pm

Swisher grew up and went to High School where I live appx 185 miles south of the stadium. I thought the team would use that a bit to their advantage. Now, no the fans they would draw from here are not going to allow them to afford to sign Cliff Lee back but basically the added extra exposure has been as far as I can tell, one billboard.

His parents still live here. I think there has been maybe 3 games on here. Seems to me that the Indians write off Ohio south of New Philadelphia. Lots of Pirates fans because they are on television constantly and they are no closer than Cleveland.
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Re: If a tree falls in Cleveland,

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Sun Sep 15, 2013 9:40 pm

1Perry wrote:Swisher grew up and went to High School where I live appx 185 miles south of the stadium. I thought the team would use that a bit to their advantage. Now, no the fans they would draw from here are not going to allow them to afford to sign Cliff Lee back but basically the added extra exposure has been as far as I can tell, one billboard.

His parents still live here. I think there has been maybe 3 games on here. Seems to me that the Indians write off Ohio south of New Philadelphia. Lots of Pirates fans because they are on television constantly and they are no closer than Cleveland.


I can't believe the Indians haven't capitalized on this. The West Virginia market is wide open.
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Re: If a tree falls in Cleveland,

Unread postby 1Perry » Sun Sep 15, 2013 9:57 pm

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:
1Perry wrote:Swisher grew up and went to High School where I live appx 185 miles south of the stadium. I thought the team would use that a bit to their advantage. Now, no the fans they would draw from here are not going to allow them to afford to sign Cliff Lee back but basically the added extra exposure has been as far as I can tell, one billboard.

His parents still live here. I think there has been maybe 3 games on here. Seems to me that the Indians write off Ohio south of New Philadelphia. Lots of Pirates fans because they are on television constantly and they are no closer than Cleveland.


I can't believe the Indians haven't capitalized on this. The West Virginia market is wide open.


It's not like someone from here makes the bigs very often........heck the last one might have been his dad.
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Re: If a tree falls in Cleveland,

Unread postby OldDawg » Sun Sep 15, 2013 10:44 pm

Wait ... What? ... Am I hearing something? ...



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Re: If a tree falls in Cleveland,

Unread postby gotribe31 » Mon Sep 16, 2013 7:49 am

justmebd wrote:I don't think I've ever been less excited about a Cleveland team in a playoff hunt.

Since I'm convinced they'll be swept right out of whatever playoff game they end up in, you can see why my enthusiasm is dampened.

You can thank the Dolans and that FO that consistently puts a shit product on the field. :hic:



I just want to remind people that someone said this. That even if a Cleveland team makes the playoffs, it sucks because they might lose. No Cleveland team has finished over .500 since the 2009-2010 Cavs, and we have people bitching because if the Indians do make the playoffs, they might lose.

This is why we can't have nice things.
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Re: If a tree falls in Cleveland,

Unread postby Larvell Blanks » Mon Sep 16, 2013 8:29 am

^ this


My favorite part of Monday morning radio. Disect over and over what went wrong in Bmore yesterday and as an aside, "oh the Indians won again and are half a game out of both WC positions. Now back to the Browns....". Then continue to scream about teams in this town not being competative for years.
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Re: If a tree falls in Cleveland,

Unread postby CAVSTRIBEBROWNSin07! » Mon Sep 16, 2013 9:45 am

Madre Hill, Superstar wrote:Cavs attendance in 2010-11 was 824k
Cavs attendance in 2011-12 was 525k.
Cavs attendance in 2012-13 was 663k.

Its a variety of factors, but mainly the Cavs have an Uncle Drew and the Indians don't.


Misleading numbers, there were only 33 home games in 11-12. The average attendance was 15K. They averaged 16K last year. Not a major difference. I'd attribute the lower number in 11-12 less to Kyrie and more to the fact that season ticket holders took a year off after being forced to pay up the previous year for a dogshit team. Also due to the crammed schedule.
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Re: If a tree falls in Cleveland,

Unread postby skatingtripods » Mon Sep 16, 2013 10:02 am

Shapiro directly cited a low season ticket holder base in yesterday's Crain's Cleveland article: http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/ ... /309159990
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Re: If a tree falls in Cleveland,

Unread postby Commodore Perry » Mon Sep 16, 2013 10:28 am

skatingtripods wrote:Shapiro directly cited a low season ticket holder base in yesterday's Crain's Cleveland article: http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/ ... /309159990



This is the major issue. The complaints about ticket prices/parking/never winning - those are explanations for why the bandwagon fan hasn't jumped on.

But when you have only 9,000 tickets sold for a game during a pennant race, and only 6,000 of those show up, you've lost the hardcore baseball fan.

How and why they lost the hardcore fans? I don't know. I can say its not about money. And its probably not about the history of losing - the hardcore fan loves the sport, they're not in it as much for being #1 like the bandwagon fan. Its something else.
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Re: If a tree falls in Cleveland,

Unread postby 1Perry » Mon Sep 16, 2013 11:32 am

Once again Shapiro blames the fans despite the overwhelming argument by the fans that the team and the moves they have made over the last decade plus being the reason they are not showing up.

Shapiro says using my words.......if you won't show up we will charge you more to go to the games we expect more to show up for.

God how I wish they had asked anyone but him for a quote. He can't accept blame for anything.
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Re: If a tree falls in Cleveland,

Unread postby pod2dawg » Mon Sep 16, 2013 12:00 pm

You better quit picking on Shapiro or Pup will break his leash. :)
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Re: If a tree falls in Cleveland,

Unread postby 7foot3 » Mon Sep 16, 2013 1:37 pm

1Perry wrote:Once again Shapiro blames the fans despite the overwhelming argument by the fans that the team and the moves they have made over the last decade plus being the reason they are not showing up.

Shapiro says using my words.......if you won't show up we will charge you more to go to the games we expect more to show up for.


This is an . . . interesting . . . interpretation, to say the least. I'm' not seeing where he's blaming the fans. Saying "We need to have people committed to coming downtown" is not blaming anyone, but addressing the reality of the situation.

And, maybe I'm missing something, but your second paragraph seems to be pulled out of you-know-where. Maybe you should stick to not putting words in other people's mouths.
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Re: If a tree falls in Cleveland,

Unread postby 1Perry » Mon Sep 16, 2013 2:09 pm

7foot3 wrote:
1Perry wrote:Once again Shapiro blames the fans despite the overwhelming argument by the fans that the team and the moves they have made over the last decade plus being the reason they are not showing up.

Shapiro says using my words.......if you won't show up we will charge you more to go to the games we expect more to show up for.


This is an . . . interesting . . . interpretation, to say the least. I'm' not seeing where he's blaming the fans. Saying "We need to have people committed to coming downtown" is not blaming anyone, but addressing the reality of the situation.

And, maybe I'm missing something, but your second paragraph seems to be pulled out of you-know-where. Maybe you should stick to not putting words in other people's mouths.


I miss a good old Shapiro argument. History has been on the side of those who argued that he would never amount to much as a GM.

Skates posted a good article about the Pirates front office and the turn around of the Pirates. Nowhere did they blame attendance, they blamed their failures on how the team was ran and how they realized they had to change, from the front office down to the manager and then the players to be successful.

When Shapiro took over in 2001 they were the 4th best draw in baseball. Host the wild card game and let's see how many show up.
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Re: If a tree falls in Cleveland,

Unread postby 7foot3 » Mon Sep 16, 2013 2:25 pm

1Perry wrote:
7foot3 wrote:
1Perry wrote:Once again Shapiro blames the fans despite the overwhelming argument by the fans that the team and the moves they have made over the last decade plus being the reason they are not showing up.

Shapiro says using my words.......if you won't show up we will charge you more to go to the games we expect more to show up for.


This is an . . . interesting . . . interpretation, to say the least. I'm' not seeing where he's blaming the fans. Saying "We need to have people committed to coming downtown" is not blaming anyone, but addressing the reality of the situation.

And, maybe I'm missing something, but your second paragraph seems to be pulled out of you-know-where. Maybe you should stick to not putting words in other people's mouths.


I miss a good old Shapiro argument. History has been on the side of those who argued that he would never amount to much as a GM.

Skates posted a good article about the Pirates front office and the turn around of the Pirates. Nowhere did they blame attendance, they blamed their failures on how the team was ran and how they realized they had to change, from the front office down to the manager and then the players to be successful.

When Shapiro took over in 2001 they were the 4th best draw in baseball. Host the wild card game and let's see how many show up.



So you're not going to tell me how he's blaming the fans or defend your second paragraph?

And you mean the Pirates FO that pilfered from the Indians, and has been modeling themselves after the Indians? That FO?
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Re: If a tree falls in Cleveland,

Unread postby skatingtripods » Mon Sep 16, 2013 2:33 pm

1Perry wrote:I miss a good old Shapiro argument. History has been on the side of those who argued that he would never amount to much as a GM.

Skates posted a good article about the Pirates front office and the turn around of the Pirates. Nowhere did they blame attendance, they blamed their failures on how the team was ran and how they realized they had to change, from the front office down to the manager and then the players to be successful.

When Shapiro took over in 2001 they were the 4th best draw in baseball. Host the wild card game and let's see how many show up.


When Shapiro took over, the team was perennially in the top 10 in payroll and ranked in the top five for a few years. The Dolans took over as big businesses were leaving downtown Cleveland. I just went back and looked at the Shapiro Q&A with Pat McManamon thread because I was looking to see if Shapiro blamed the fans in that interview. He didn't. Not once.

But the Dolans entered the fray in a transitioning economy with a dwindling population and a lack of business interests in the downtown area. As a result, they had to cut payroll, and rightfully so.

One thing that the article does not mention is that PNC Park is one of the best pitcher's parks in baseball. So when pitchers do make a mistake, the ball doesn't carry. The Pirates' home ERA is 0.9 runs better than their road ERA. We have long seen teams able to build and sustain success by building the team to the ballpark's home-field advantage. Look at the Yankees and the Red Sox. Look at Oakland and San Francisco. Look at how the Twins used slap hitters on the carpet at the Metrodome to have years of success. The Indians don't have any kind of home-field advantage, ballpark quirk, attendance, or otherwise. It's a very neutral field.

PNC Park is 25th in runs, 30th in home runs, and 26th in doubles according to ESPN's Park Factor statistics. You can take a mediocre rotation and make it a lot better with a friendly home park. The Pirates' gamble with AJ Burnett paid off. Jeff Locke spent four months completely outpitching his metrics before regression finally set in. Francisco Liriano has been outstanding, something nobody thought possible.

The advancements in the Pirates' defensive ideology has helped to make a mediocre pitching staff a lot better than they should be. That's finding value with a low payroll. It's creativity. It's impressive. But, it's also a fair amount of getting lucky as well. The Indians rank in the middle of the pack in starter GB%, so this isn't really something that they can implement with a lot of success. League-wide, we have seen more shifts, and it seems that the Indians have shifted more than in years past.

I don't know what, specifically, Mickey Callaway has done with the pitching staff, but the results are evident. The Indians are still a poor fielding team (23rd in defensive runs saved), yet the staff's numbers have improved dramatically from last season. An increase in strikeouts of nearly two K/9 is a large part of why, since the BB rate is nearly the same.

The Indians are ever-growing and ever-changing based on analytics. We just don't have any media in the market able to write about it. The article from the Tribune is one of the few that I have seen from local media and not something written by Fangraphs or B-Pro. That's part of why it's getting so much play. Sabermetricians are sharing it left and right on Twitter because it's saber making the mainstream. It's a big deal.

But it certainly doesn't mean that the Pirates are the only team using analytics to improve.
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Re: If a tree falls in Cleveland,

Unread postby motherscratcher » Mon Sep 16, 2013 2:38 pm

1Perry wrote:
I miss a good old Shapiro argument. History has been on the side of those who argued that he would never amount to much as a GM.

Skates posted a good article about the Pirates front office and the turn around of the Pirates. Nowhere did they blame attendance, they blamed their failures on how the team was ran and how they realized they had to change, from the front office down to the manager and then the players to be successful.

When Shapiro took over in 2001 they were the 4th best draw in baseball. Host the wild card game and let's see how many show up.


It's been so long. I miss your Shapiro takes. Can you tell me about his Ivy League Tongue again? You know, for old time sake?
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Re: If a tree falls in Cleveland,

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Mon Sep 16, 2013 3:00 pm

skatingtripods wrote:
When Shapiro took over, the team was perennially in the top 10 in payroll and ranked in the top five for a few years. The Dolans took over as big businesses were leaving downtown Cleveland. I just went back and looked at the Shapiro Q&A with Pat McManamon thread because I was looking to see if Shapiro blamed the fans in that interview. He didn't. Not once.

But the Dolans entered the fray in a transitioning economy with a dwindling population and a lack of business interests in the downtown area. As a result, they had to cut payroll, and rightfully so.

One thing that the article does not mention is that PNC Park is one of the best pitcher's parks in baseball. So when pitchers do make a mistake, the ball doesn't carry. The Pirates' home ERA is 0.9 runs better than their road ERA. We have long seen teams able to build and sustain success by building the team to the ballpark's home-field advantage. Look at the Yankees and the Red Sox. Look at Oakland and San Francisco. Look at how the Twins used slap hitters on the carpet at the Metrodome to have years of success. The Indians don't have any kind of home-field advantage, ballpark quirk, attendance, or otherwise. It's a very neutral field.

PNC Park is 25th in runs, 30th in home runs, and 26th in doubles according to ESPN's Park Factor statistics. You can take a mediocre rotation and make it a lot better with a friendly home park. The Pirates' gamble with AJ Burnett paid off. Jeff Locke spent four months completely outpitching his metrics before regression finally set in. Francisco Liriano has been outstanding, something nobody thought possible.

The advancements in the Pirates' defensive ideology has helped to make a mediocre pitching staff a lot better than they should be. That's finding value with a low payroll. It's creativity. It's impressive. But, it's also a fair amount of getting lucky as well. The Indians rank in the middle of the pack in starter GB%, so this isn't really something that they can implement with a lot of success. League-wide, we have seen more shifts, and it seems that the Indians have shifted more than in years past.

I don't know what, specifically, Mickey Callaway has done with the pitching staff, but the results are evident. The Indians are still a poor fielding team (23rd in defensive runs saved), yet the staff's numbers have improved dramatically from last season. An increase in strikeouts of nearly two K/9 is a large part of why, since the BB rate is nearly the same.

The Indians are ever-growing and ever-changing based on analytics. We just don't have any media in the market able to write about it. The article from the Tribune is one of the few that I have seen from local media and not something written by Fangraphs or B-Pro. That's part of why it's getting so much play. Sabermetricians are sharing it left and right on Twitter because it's saber making the mainstream. It's a big deal.

But it certainly doesn't mean that the Pirates are the only team using analytics to improve.



No offense, you know your shit, but this right here, this is why my love of baseball has just about vanished. Everything has to be a fucking math equation nowadays.
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Re: If a tree falls in Cleveland,

Unread postby 1Perry » Mon Sep 16, 2013 3:03 pm

7foot3 wrote:
1Perry wrote:
7foot3 wrote:
1Perry wrote:Once again Shapiro blames the fans despite the overwhelming argument by the fans that the team and the moves they have made over the last decade plus being the reason they are not showing up.

Shapiro says using my words.......if you won't show up we will charge you more to go to the games we expect more to show up for.


This is an . . . interesting . . . interpretation, to say the least. I'm' not seeing where he's blaming the fans. Saying "We need to have people committed to coming downtown" is not blaming anyone, but addressing the reality of the situation.

And, maybe I'm missing something, but your second paragraph seems to be pulled out of you-know-where. Maybe you should stick to not putting words in other people's mouths.


I miss a good old Shapiro argument. History has been on the side of those who argued that he would never amount to much as a GM.

Skates posted a good article about the Pirates front office and the turn around of the Pirates. Nowhere did they blame attendance, they blamed their failures on how the team was ran and how they realized they had to change, from the front office down to the manager and then the players to be successful.

When Shapiro took over in 2001 they were the 4th best draw in baseball. Host the wild card game and let's see how many show up.



So you're not going to tell me how he's blaming the fans or defend your second paragraph?

And you mean the Pirates FO that pilfered from the Indians, and has been modeling themselves after the Indians? That FO?


Nothing I say will convince you any more than the arguments of long ago convinced anyone. Not once does he mention all the years that he didn't put a very good team on the field.

His leadership is the reason they lost over 90 games in 3 of 4 years recently. Something that as bad as they had been in the past never happened before.

It is refreshing to have a GM that doesn't put his foot in his mouth every time he opens it. That will pay off in the long run.
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Re: If a tree falls in Cleveland,

Unread postby 1Perry » Mon Sep 16, 2013 3:15 pm

skatingtripods wrote:
1Perry wrote:But it certainly doesn't mean that the Pirates are the only team using analytics to improve.


As I noted in that thread what I took from the article is the front office noting that they had to change to make a difference, not blame the fans.

They didn't argue that they had to find ways to maximize revenue. They had to change. They have put a pretty exciting team on the field and they didn't do that by increasing attendance.
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Re: If a tree falls in Cleveland,

Unread postby 1Perry » Mon Sep 16, 2013 3:19 pm

motherscratcher wrote:
1Perry wrote:
I miss a good old Shapiro argument. History has been on the side of those who argued that he would never amount to much as a GM.

Skates posted a good article about the Pirates front office and the turn around of the Pirates. Nowhere did they blame attendance, they blamed their failures on how the team was ran and how they realized they had to change, from the front office down to the manager and then the players to be successful.

When Shapiro took over in 2001 they were the 4th best draw in baseball. Host the wild card game and let's see how many show up.


It's been so long. I miss your Shapiro takes. Can you tell me about his Ivy League Tongue again? You know, for old time sake?


I have on good knowledge that Shapiro failed public relations. Or maybe it was he didn't take it as just telling people you are so smart is all you need in life.
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Re: If a tree falls in Cleveland,

Unread postby gotribe31 » Mon Sep 16, 2013 3:34 pm

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:
skatingtripods wrote:
When Shapiro took over, the team was perennially in the top 10 in payroll and ranked in the top five for a few years. The Dolans took over as big businesses were leaving downtown Cleveland. I just went back and looked at the Shapiro Q&A with Pat McManamon thread because I was looking to see if Shapiro blamed the fans in that interview. He didn't. Not once.

But the Dolans entered the fray in a transitioning economy with a dwindling population and a lack of business interests in the downtown area. As a result, they had to cut payroll, and rightfully so.

One thing that the article does not mention is that PNC Park is one of the best pitcher's parks in baseball. So when pitchers do make a mistake, the ball doesn't carry. The Pirates' home ERA is 0.9 runs better than their road ERA. We have long seen teams able to build and sustain success by building the team to the ballpark's home-field advantage. Look at the Yankees and the Red Sox. Look at Oakland and San Francisco. Look at how the Twins used slap hitters on the carpet at the Metrodome to have years of success. The Indians don't have any kind of home-field advantage, ballpark quirk, attendance, or otherwise. It's a very neutral field.

PNC Park is 25th in runs, 30th in home runs, and 26th in doubles according to ESPN's Park Factor statistics. You can take a mediocre rotation and make it a lot better with a friendly home park. The Pirates' gamble with AJ Burnett paid off. Jeff Locke spent four months completely outpitching his metrics before regression finally set in. Francisco Liriano has been outstanding, something nobody thought possible.

The advancements in the Pirates' defensive ideology has helped to make a mediocre pitching staff a lot better than they should be. That's finding value with a low payroll. It's creativity. It's impressive. But, it's also a fair amount of getting lucky as well. The Indians rank in the middle of the pack in starter GB%, so this isn't really something that they can implement with a lot of success. League-wide, we have seen more shifts, and it seems that the Indians have shifted more than in years past.

I don't know what, specifically, Mickey Callaway has done with the pitching staff, but the results are evident. The Indians are still a poor fielding team (23rd in defensive runs saved), yet the staff's numbers have improved dramatically from last season. An increase in strikeouts of nearly two K/9 is a large part of why, since the BB rate is nearly the same.

The Indians are ever-growing and ever-changing based on analytics. We just don't have any media in the market able to write about it. The article from the Tribune is one of the few that I have seen from local media and not something written by Fangraphs or B-Pro. That's part of why it's getting so much play. Sabermetricians are sharing it left and right on Twitter because it's saber making the mainstream. It's a big deal.

But it certainly doesn't mean that the Pirates are the only team using analytics to improve.



No offense, you know your shit, but this right here, this is why my love of baseball has just about vanished. Everything has to be a fucking math equation nowadays.



I hate math. I pass/failed statistics in college, and that was supposed to be the jock math class.
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Re: If a tree falls in Cleveland,

Unread postby 7foot3 » Mon Sep 16, 2013 3:34 pm

1Perry wrote: Nothing I say will convince you any more than the arguments of long ago convinced anyone. Not once does he mention all the years that he didn't put a very good team on the field.

His leadership is the reason they lost over 90 games in 3 of 4 years recently. Something that as bad as they had been in the past never happened before.

It is refreshing to have a GM that doesn't put his foot in his mouth every time he opens it. That will pay off in the long run.


You've spewed a lot of words to say nothing more than "no, I can't back up what I wrote"

The interview was about the business-side of the attendance issue. When asked about the baseball side, the team is always saying things like "we have to get better". Maybe if we just can organize a stoning of the FO down at the ballpark, we can get a decent sized crowd. Then everyone can get their frustration out.
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Re: If a tree falls in Cleveland,

Unread postby gotribe31 » Mon Sep 16, 2013 3:35 pm

1Perry wrote:
motherscratcher wrote:
1Perry wrote:
I miss a good old Shapiro argument. History has been on the side of those who argued that he would never amount to much as a GM.

Skates posted a good article about the Pirates front office and the turn around of the Pirates. Nowhere did they blame attendance, they blamed their failures on how the team was ran and how they realized they had to change, from the front office down to the manager and then the players to be successful.

When Shapiro took over in 2001 they were the 4th best draw in baseball. Host the wild card game and let's see how many show up.


It's been so long. I miss your Shapiro takes. Can you tell me about his Ivy League Tongue again? You know, for old time sake?


I have on good knowledge that Shapiro failed public relations. Or maybe it was he didn't take it as just telling people you are so smart is all you need in life.


Shapiro was born in Kenya. He's not even eligible to be the (team) President.
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Re: If a tree falls in Cleveland,

Unread postby skatingtripods » Mon Sep 16, 2013 3:42 pm

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:No offense, you know your shit, but this right here, this is why my love of baseball has just about vanished. Everything has to be a fucking math equation nowadays.


It doesn't have to be. I choose to get into that aspect of baseball. Nowhere does it say that you have to have a PhD in Baseball Acronyms to be a fan.

It's an important part of the game for people who make decisions. Every team in the NFL probably has an analytics department looking at risk-reward scenarios, breaking down advanced statistics, projected yards per play on Play X against Defensive Scheme Y. Take away the fact that the Browns suck...do you still love football?

You love hockey, right? Ever hear of Fenwick or Corsi? Those are two advanced statistical concepts in the NHL that every front office evaluates. Doesn't mean you have to know about them.

I choose to study and understand the saber stuff. You can still enjoy baseball if you don't. Just don't stand behind me on the Porch and talk about batting average and RBIs. ;-) ;) :wink:
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Re: If a tree falls in Cleveland,

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Mon Sep 16, 2013 3:55 pm

skatingtripods wrote:
Cerebral_DownTime wrote:No offense, you know your shit, but this right here, this is why my love of baseball has just about vanished. Everything has to be a fucking math equation nowadays.


It doesn't have to be. I choose to get into that aspect of baseball. Nowhere does it say that you have to have a PhD in Baseball Acronyms to be a fan.

It's an important part of the game for people who make decisions. Every team in the NFL probably has an analytics department looking at risk-reward scenarios, breaking down advanced statistics, projected yards per play on Play X against Defensive Scheme Y. Take away the fact that the Browns suck...do you still love football?

You love hockey, right? Ever hear of Fenwick or Corsi? Those are two advanced statistical concepts in the NHL that every front office evaluates. Doesn't mean you have to know about them.

I choose to study and understand the saber stuff. You can still enjoy baseball if you don't. Just don't stand behind me on the Porch and talk about batting average and RBIs. ;-) ;) :wink:


It's when I hear people say stuff like "wins for a pitcher is overrated"..... that makes my head explode.

I'm a basic stats guy. I don't need to know Miguel Cabrera's WAR to know that he's one of the best hitters I've ever seen.

And if I want, I'll stand behind you on the porch and talk about the Alexander the Great's siege of Tyre. But that might make you jump off. Which means you'll be very hurt and probably get tazed.
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Re: If a tree falls in Cleveland,

Unread postby skatingtripods » Mon Sep 16, 2013 4:04 pm

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:It's when I hear people say stuff like "wins for a pitcher is overrated"..... that makes my head explode.


I understand the overall point. A pitcher who goes 5 and gives up 6, but gets a win didn't get it because of his performance. He got it because of his offense and probably the relievers.

I don't really get involved in it. My batting average and RBI point was somewhat made in jest. Some hits are luck, bloopers that fall, dribblers that find holes, swinging bunt singles, etc, but a lot more hits are line drives or solid ground balls with top spin. They're not separated as luck or legit, so sabermetricians don't like it. Same with RBIs for the most part.

Sabermetricians are very egomaniacal about what they believe. I'm confident in admitting that because I've come off pretentious about it before. I can see why a lot of people don't like us.

I'm a basic stats guy. I don't need to know Miguel Cabrera's WAR to know that he's one of the best hitters I've ever seen.


I've tried to convey this point. Advanced stats, generally, don't tell us anything we don't already know, but they provide a value for it. But, they're still very important, especially in evaluating players in a multi-billion dollar industry. A lot of sabermetric stats provide context for the eras as well. They're built in to make all things equal - park factor (hitter's park or pitcher's park), steroid era v. current era, dead ball era v. live ball era, etc.

If you don't care, you don't care. And that's fine.

And yes, Miguel Cabrera's one of the best hitters I've ever seen. Sabermetrics just tell me how me how great he is.
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Re: If a tree falls in Cleveland,

Unread postby motherscratcher » Mon Sep 16, 2013 4:30 pm

skatingtripods wrote:
Cerebral_DownTime wrote:It's when I hear people say stuff like "wins for a pitcher is overrated"..... that makes my head explode.


I understand the overall point. A pitcher who goes 5 and gives up 6, but gets a win didn't get it because of his performance. He got it because of his offense and probably the relievers.

I don't really get involved in it. My batting average and RBI point was somewhat made in jest. Some hits are luck, bloopers that fall, dribblers that find holes, swinging bunt singles, etc, but a lot more hits are line drives or solid ground balls with top spin. They're not separated as luck or legit, so sabermetricians don't like it. Same with RBIs for the most part.

Sabermetricians are very egomaniacal about what they believe. I'm confident in admitting that because I've come off pretentious about it before. I can see why a lot of people don't like us.

I'm a basic stats guy. I don't need to know Miguel Cabrera's WAR to know that he's one of the best hitters I've ever seen.


I've tried to convey this point. Advanced stats, generally, don't tell us anything we don't already know, but they provide a value for it. But, they're still very important, especially in evaluating players in a multi-billion dollar industry. A lot of sabermetric stats provide context for the eras as well. They're built in to make all things equal - park factor (hitter's park or pitcher's park), steroid era v. current era, dead ball era v. live ball era, etc.

If you don't care, you don't care. And that's fine.

And yes, Miguel Cabrera's one of the best hitters I've ever seen. Sabermetrics just tell me how me how great he is.



Yes, Miggy is a beast. He's absolutely great. Just how great you ask? Well, he's almost as good as Mike Trout. :hide:
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Re: If a tree falls in Cleveland,

Unread postby FUDU » Mon Sep 16, 2013 4:41 pm

Another way to look at the Tribe attendance situation, relative to their "success" this year, it's a total free market reflex. After the past decade of baseball this franchise has provided, including the 2007 choke job v. Bosox, this is exactly what a free market response would look like no? It's Eddie Murphy's what have you done for me lately.

You could say the Tribe actually deserves this. At least until they make the playoffs and/or win a series.

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Re: If a tree falls in Cleveland,

Unread postby 7foot3 » Mon Sep 16, 2013 5:24 pm

FUDU wrote:Another way to look at the Tribe attendance situation, relative to their "success" this year, it's a total free market reflex. After the past decade of baseball this franchise has provided, including the 2007 choke job v. Bosox, this is exactly what a free market response would look like no? It's Eddie Murphy's what have you done for me lately.

You could say the Tribe actually deserves this. At least until they make the playoffs and/or win a series.




Lately, they've played themselves into a win today from a wild card spot. What have the fans done lately?
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Re: If a tree falls in Cleveland,

Unread postby 1Perry » Mon Sep 16, 2013 5:43 pm

7foot3 wrote:You've spewed a lot of words to say nothing more than "no, I can't back up what I wrote"

The interview was about the business-side of the attendance issue. When asked about the baseball side, the team is always saying things like "we have to get better". Maybe if we just can organize a stoning of the FO down at the ballpark, we can get a decent sized crowd. Then everyone can get their frustration out.


I argued this for many years but I was told that I didn't know what I was talking about.

The fact is Shapiro deserves a large share of the blame for the demise of the Indians due to his poor evaluation of talent, questionable trades, inability to put together a winning coaching staff, and his shortsighted and seemingly desperate free agent signings.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/3329 ... ros-tenure

Given his overall transactional history, though, the Indians fan must be worried if Shapiro can oversee a period of long-term and sustained success. Considering the lack of returns Shapiro has received for all of his moves and deals during his time as GM in Cleveland, coupled with his seemingly infinite array of excuses and explanations for the Indians’ inconsistency, the appropriate question going forward seems to be: Has Cleveland experienced brief spells of success in the past 10 years because of Shapiro’s leadership, or in spite of it?

The season ticket talk is nothing more than an excuse for his failures.
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Re: If a tree falls in Cleveland,

Unread postby 1Perry » Mon Sep 16, 2013 5:45 pm

gotribe31 wrote:Shapiro was born in Kenya. He's not even eligible to be the (team) President.


I can't buy that. A Kenyan would have a better working knowledge of baseball than Shapiro has shown.
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Re: If a tree falls in Cleveland,

Unread postby 1Perry » Mon Sep 16, 2013 5:53 pm

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:It's when I hear people say stuff like "wins for a pitcher is overrated"..... that makes my head explode.

I'm a basic stats guy. I don't need to know Miguel Cabrera's WAR to know that he's one of the best hitters I've ever seen.

And if I want, I'll stand behind you on the porch and talk about the Alexander the Great's siege of Tyre. But that might make you jump off. Which means you'll be very hurt and probably get tazed.


On a more serious side, I am in between. You do not need to know the numbers to know as you say that Cabrera can play. Unfortunately you can't afford to fill a team with a bench full of Cabrera's so using every number available to choose between the lesser players makes sense.

I have zero interest in being the guy to break down every single number though. On the other hand, yeah, don't tell me that batting average isn't all that meaningful. Someone that can hit for a high B.A is always going to find a roster spot. The rest have to get every walk possible to keep their job.
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Re: If a tree falls in Cleveland,

Unread postby motherscratcher » Mon Sep 16, 2013 6:05 pm

1Perry wrote:
7foot3 wrote:You've spewed a lot of words to say nothing more than "no, I can't back up what I wrote"

The interview was about the business-side of the attendance issue. When asked about the baseball side, the team is always saying things like "we have to get better". Maybe if we just can organize a stoning of the FO down at the ballpark, we can get a decent sized crowd. Then everyone can get their frustration out.


I argued this for many years but I was told that I didn't know what I was talking about.

The fact is Shapiro deserves a large share of the blame for the demise of the Indians due to his poor evaluation of talent, questionable trades, inability to put together a winning coaching staff, and his shortsighted and seemingly desperate free agent signings.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/3329 ... ros-tenure

Given his overall transactional history, though, the Indians fan must be worried if Shapiro can oversee a period of long-term and sustained success. Considering the lack of returns Shapiro has received for all of his moves and deals during his time as GM in Cleveland, coupled with his seemingly infinite array of excuses and explanations for the Indians’ inconsistency, the appropriate question going forward seems to be: Has Cleveland experienced brief spells of success in the past 10 years because of Shapiro’s leadership, or in spite of it?

The season ticket talk is nothing more than an excuse for his failures.


Bleacher Report lol
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Re: If a tree falls in Cleveland,

Unread postby Spin » Mon Sep 16, 2013 6:05 pm

So you're finally acknowledging Pissburgh used the right method of building a team.

Who was it that said that 2 years ago (and was destroyed for saying it)?

This guy.
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Re: If a tree falls in Cleveland,

Unread postby motherscratcher » Mon Sep 16, 2013 6:10 pm

1Perry wrote:
I have zero interest in being the guy to break down every single number though. On the other hand, yeah, don't tell me that batting average isn't all that meaningful. Someone that can hit for a high B.A is always going to find a roster spot. The rest have to get every walk possible to keep their job.



Sorry, I'll tell you. It isn't all that meaningful.

The problem isn't that BA is meaningless though. It's not. The problem is we KNOW what its flaws are, and we have BETTER means for evaluation.
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Re: If a tree falls in Cleveland,

Unread postby FUDU » Mon Sep 16, 2013 6:36 pm

The problem that BA presents for most people is they use it in the context that it is a comprehensive measure of a plate appearance, when it clearly isn't at all.
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Re: If a tree falls in Cleveland,

Unread postby 7foot3 » Mon Sep 16, 2013 6:38 pm

1Perry wrote: I argued this for many years but I was told that I didn't know what I was talking about.

The fact is Shapiro deserves a large share of the blame for the demise of the Indians due to his poor evaluation of talent, questionable trades, inability to put together a winning coaching staff, and his shortsighted and seemingly desperate free agent signings.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/3329 ... ros-tenure

Given his overall transactional history, though, the Indians fan must be worried if Shapiro can oversee a period of long-term and sustained success. Considering the lack of returns Shapiro has received for all of his moves and deals during his time as GM in Cleveland, coupled with his seemingly infinite array of excuses and explanations for the Indians’ inconsistency, the appropriate question going forward seems to be: Has Cleveland experienced brief spells of success in the past 10 years because of Shapiro’s leadership, or in spite of it?

The season ticket talk is nothing more than an excuse for his failures.



Some bro named Daniel Zwick agrees with you, and he put it on the internet. That changes everything now.

The talk about season tickets is because he was asked specific questions about season tickets, I'm not sure how that is a difficult concept.
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Re: If a tree falls in Cleveland,

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Mon Sep 16, 2013 7:18 pm

And yes, Miguel Cabrera's one of the best hitters I've ever seen. Sabermetrics just tell me how me how great he is.



I just use my eyeballs.
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Re: If a tree falls in Cleveland,

Unread postby FUDU » Mon Sep 16, 2013 7:38 pm

Miggy is the real life version of an original Nintendo RBI player.
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Re: If a tree falls in Cleveland,

Unread postby skatingtripods » Mon Sep 16, 2013 8:07 pm

If I see Bleacher Report in the URL, I just pass right on by.
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Re: If a tree falls in Cleveland,

Unread postby mattvan1 » Mon Sep 16, 2013 11:05 pm

skatingtripods wrote:If I see Bleacher Report in the URL, I just pass right on by.


http://gawker.com/the-relentless-and-well-deserved-mockery-of-bryan-goldb-1325205558

Deadspin/Gawker slagging off Bleacher Report is probably hypocritical, but it's funny nevertheless.
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Re: If a tree falls in Cleveland,

Unread postby skatingtripods » Mon Sep 16, 2013 11:22 pm

Only thing that would have saved tonight is if plate ump Brian O'Nora would have choked on his dip again.

http://deadspin.com/brian-onora-was-pro ... -483772548
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Re: If a tree falls in Cleveland,

Unread postby gotribe31 » Tue Sep 17, 2013 7:31 am

1Perry wrote:
7foot3 wrote:You've spewed a lot of words to say nothing more than "no, I can't back up what I wrote"

The interview was about the business-side of the attendance issue. When asked about the baseball side, the team is always saying things like "we have to get better". Maybe if we just can organize a stoning of the FO down at the ballpark, we can get a decent sized crowd. Then everyone can get their frustration out.


I argued this for many years but I was told that I didn't know what I was talking about.

The fact is Shapiro deserves a large share of the blame for the demise of the Indians due to his poor evaluation of talent, questionable trades, inability to put together a winning coaching staff, and his shortsighted and seemingly desperate free agent signings.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/3329 ... ros-tenure

Given his overall transactional history, though, the Indians fan must be worried if Shapiro can oversee a period of long-term and sustained success. Considering the lack of returns Shapiro has received for all of his moves and deals during his time as GM in Cleveland, coupled with his seemingly infinite array of excuses and explanations for the Indians’ inconsistency, the appropriate question going forward seems to be: Has Cleveland experienced brief spells of success in the past 10 years because of Shapiro’s leadership, or in spite of it?

The season ticket talk is nothing more than an excuse for his failures.


You using a bleacher report link to back up your "point" is the most perfect thing ever.
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Re: If a tree falls in Cleveland,

Unread postby OldDawg » Tue Sep 17, 2013 7:47 am

gotribe31 wrote:
1Perry wrote:
7foot3 wrote:You've spewed a lot of words to say nothing more than "no, I can't back up what I wrote"

The interview was about the business-side of the attendance issue. When asked about the baseball side, the team is always saying things like "we have to get better". Maybe if we just can organize a stoning of the FO down at the ballpark, we can get a decent sized crowd. Then everyone can get their frustration out.


I argued this for many years but I was told that I didn't know what I was talking about.

The fact is Shapiro deserves a large share of the blame for the demise of the Indians due to his poor evaluation of talent, questionable trades, inability to put together a winning coaching staff, and his shortsighted and seemingly desperate free agent signings.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/3329 ... ros-tenure

Given his overall transactional history, though, the Indians fan must be worried if Shapiro can oversee a period of long-term and sustained success. Considering the lack of returns Shapiro has received for all of his moves and deals during his time as GM in Cleveland, coupled with his seemingly infinite array of excuses and explanations for the Indians’ inconsistency, the appropriate question going forward seems to be: Has Cleveland experienced brief spells of success in the past 10 years because of Shapiro’s leadership, or in spite of it?

The season ticket talk is nothing more than an excuse for his failures.


You using a bleacher report link to back up your "point" is the most perfect thing ever.

If you would have used BA as well to make your point, you might have been banned.
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Re: If a tree falls in Cleveland,

Unread postby peeker643 » Tue Sep 17, 2013 2:19 pm

I won't speak for anyone else (for once), but might I submit that the reason people aren't going is that they simply don't believe or buy into this club being a viable contender?

Mostly because they're not likely to find an opponent in the playoffs of the ilk that they've demonstrated they're capable of regularly beating during the season?

And no, I'm not excited about having that 'anything can happen if you get there' opportunity.

Do I hope they make it and that 'anything happens'? Of course I do. Am I invested in it or naive enough enough to be excited about it?

I am not.

Because once again you'll be hoping for something to happen that either isn't likely to happen or, based on the 162 game season, probably shouldn't happen.

Hope is fine. Hope is to be encouraged. But hope shouldn't be the basis of any chance the team has of moving on should they earn (and make no mistake, they will have earned it regardless of how they did so) a WC spot.

People aren't convinced that this team has a viable chance. Mostly because this team hasn't done anything to give people that impression. Unless the Twins, Astros and White Sox are waiting for them in the playoffs.

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Re: If a tree falls in Cleveland,

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Tue Sep 17, 2013 2:25 pm

So, as Al pointed out, if you don't feel that a team is a title contender in freaking CLEVELAND of all places you shouldn't go to the games...

LOLOLOLOL at the entire fucking city then (aside from those here that actually, you know, support their teams).
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Re: If a tree falls in Cleveland,

Unread postby skatingtripods » Tue Sep 17, 2013 2:40 pm

So that's where we are, huh? We'd rather go 70-92 to avoid getting embarrassed in the playoffs.

Beautiful.

Guess those perennial playoff chases our teams are involved in have spoiled us. Shame on me for being excited about the idea of the Indians playing in October, even if it's just for one day.

We'll see how fast playoff tickets go on Friday/Monday.
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Re: If a tree falls in Cleveland,

Unread postby peeker643 » Tue Sep 17, 2013 2:42 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:So, as Al pointed out, if you don't feel that a team is a title contender in freaking CLEVELAND of all places you shouldn't go to the games...

LOLOLOLOL at the entire fucking city then (aside from those here that actually, you know, support their teams).


I do go. And I watch nightly when I don't go. I can watch baseball good or bad all day. But I understand why the casual fan doesn't. They find nothing intoxicating about this team or the environment there and there's nothing there pulling them to the park.

And if they do get a bit excited and head to the park, they have to hope that the Tigers or Red Sox or Yankees aren't in the other dugout or they're going to see, in all likelihood and about 67% of the time, a loss.

Conversely, I've also gotten well past the point of going to Browns games solely for a day of Muni Lot debauchery.

Maybe as I get older that becomes less important and the actual success (or likely success) of the home team starts to make more of a difference.

And just because this crept into my head, society has become less....well, social. Technology is king, no one has time to do things like drive an hour each way to pay and park, watch three hours of mediocre baseball, and drive an hour back home afterward. Not when there are phones to check, Facebook to read, twitter to catch up on, and a host of athletic events on multiple platforms (including the game you're spending a lot of time and money to attend) to watch on really nice televisions.

I wonder how much that feeds into the attendance issues. Baseball can be a time suck if you're not completely caught up in it. I guess that doesn't explain why other small towns can pack a park, but maybe that's where economics also fits in. You can spend $200 to take your family of four to a game or you can spend $200 to outfit the family with the latest technology for a month. Many can't do both?

I don't know. Just thinking out loud. But for me, while I go and while I watch, I'm simply not excited about this team.
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Least Favorite Player: Dingle Stetson

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