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Cleveland Browns & The NFL

Come the Gold Rush

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Re: Come the Gold Rush

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Thu Sep 12, 2013 6:07 pm

18 picks, 9 fumbles and a SUPER GREAT 76 QB rating.

Turnover machine.
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Re: Come the Gold Rush

Unread postby rebelwithoutaclue » Thu Sep 12, 2013 6:53 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:18 picks, 9 fumbles and a SUPER GREAT 76 QB rating.

Turnover machine.



Fumbles aren't a QB's fault like they are RB's. A shitty offensive line can be the reason for most of those. He was on the worst team and he just turned 24 (today actually, weird); you think this is his ceiling? That's funny.

Russell Wilson INT% - 2.5% 6 fumbles
Andrew Luck INT% - 2.8% 9 fumbles

That's with 234 more attempts for Luck. He had to do it all because he didn't have a Marshawn Lynch to carry the load. Luck is already legit and only scratching the surface.
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Re: Come the Gold Rush

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Thu Sep 12, 2013 7:19 pm

LOL at talking about Lynch and ignoring the complete and utter suck that was the Seattle WR corp.

76 QB rating, two turnovers a game and overinflated stats due to system. His rookie year was meh by every measure except lots of yard.

A fumble every other game for a "pocket passer" is absurd, especially since Indy had a solid OL. Let's not pretend like that team wasn't two years removed from the playoffs.

You love LUCK, good for you. I see inefficient and meh as a rookie and most every advanced or standard metric agrees.

He threw the ball vertical a lot though, so HUZZAH!

1-1 TD to turnover ratio, so HUZZAH!

Let's hold off blowing his cock as the best QB prospect in a decade (as he was called here) until he actually shows it. Game one was a nice efficient start against a complete and utter shit Raiders D.

Oh and my bad, it was actually 10 fumbles for Luck.

23 TDs, 5 rushing TDs, 18 picks, 5 lost fumbles (we'll be nice here) and you have a 1-1 TD - turnover rating with that Tim Couchian 76 QB rating. 54% completion % with Reggie Wayne as his #1 WR.

HUZZAH!

HISTORIC ROOKIE YEAR! SUPER PROSPECT!

HUZZAH!
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Re: Come the Gold Rush

Unread postby leadpipe » Thu Sep 12, 2013 8:50 pm

Not to bring it back down to a "Why the Browns stink" theme, but current slow, dolt QB aside, this thread is filled with reasons why I was none to thrilled with bringing in such a "QB Guru" like Norv Turner. See my comments on how a 75 year old D coordinator will F-up the Cowboys more than they already are.

Norv Turner's QB's....the offenses that those QB's ran....they've flown away with the Dodo bird.

You can't have a statue whose mind doesn't work FAST, and you can't have an O Coordinator that peaked in the 90's, and spent the time in between then and now being a historically bad head coach, instead of staying up with the changing offenses of the now.

That blank stare that Turner had, when his teams that contained the most talent in the league were getting dumped in the first round....get used to seeing it often in 2013.
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Re: Come the Gold Rush

Unread postby Triple-S » Thu Sep 12, 2013 9:10 pm

Goddamn, even the JETS with Geno Smith look like they have an interesting athletic QB prospect.
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Re: Come the Gold Rush

Unread postby Hikohadon » Fri Sep 13, 2013 12:07 am

Triple-S wrote:Goddamn, even the JETS with Geno Smith look like they have an interesting athletic QB prospect.


I see that this was written much earlier in the game, so I think it's fair you get a chance to take that back.

There are 4 or 5 prospects in this draft better than Geno.
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Re: Come the Gold Rush

Unread postby Triple-S » Fri Sep 13, 2013 1:05 am

Hikohadon wrote:
Triple-S wrote:Goddamn, even the JETS with Geno Smith look like they have an interesting athletic QB prospect.
<br style="text-shadow: none;"><br style="text-shadow: none;">I see that this was written much earlier in the game, so I think it's fair you get a chance to take that back. <br style="text-shadow: none;"><br style="text-shadow: none;">There are 4 or 5 prospects in this draft better than Geno.


Yep.
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Re: Come the Gold Rush

Unread postby HoodooMan » Fri Sep 13, 2013 2:25 am

Triple-S wrote:
Hikohadon wrote:
Triple-S wrote:Goddamn, even the JETS with Geno Smith look like they have an interesting athletic QB prospect.
<br style="text-shadow: none;"><br style="text-shadow: none;">I see that this was written much earlier in the game, so I think it's fair you get a chance to take that back. <br style="text-shadow: none;"><br style="text-shadow: none;">There are 4 or 5 prospects in this draft better than Geno.


Yep.


Text-shadow some.
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Re: Come the Gold Rush

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Fri Sep 13, 2013 6:09 am

If Geno Smith weren't African American and played in Ohio he'd just be another shitty Ginger QB.
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Re: Come the Gold Rush

Unread postby motherscratcher » Fri Sep 13, 2013 9:41 am

e0y2e3 wrote:If Geno Smith weren't African American and played in Ohio he'd just be another shitty Ginger QB.


Well thank Dog he's black because that means he's RG4. It's true. I read that before the draft.
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Re: Come the Gold Rush

Unread postby peeker643 » Fri Sep 13, 2013 10:45 am

motherscratcher wrote:
e0y2e3 wrote:If Geno Smith weren't African American and played in Ohio he'd just be another shitty Ginger QB.


Well thank Dog he's black because that means he's RG4. It's true. I read that before the draft.


I thought bigger black dudes were Cam and the smaller ones were RG4? Like, Russell Wilson would be an RG4 and Geno would be a Cam?

Getting confused over the stereotyping.

Although I see Geno way more as a Weeden than anything else.

Glad to see we have this thread after all this time though. It pretty much sums up why I cried on draft night 2012. Starting with pick 35 in 2011, spiking upward with trade up for pick 3 in 2012 and then causing aneurysm w/pick 22 in 2012.

Fucking motherless motherfuckers running the show those years.

Meh... spilt milk and all that. We'll be fine. Things seem to be shaping up nicely.
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Re: Come the Gold Rush

Unread postby rebelwithoutaclue » Fri Sep 13, 2013 10:46 am

76 QB rating, two turnovers a game and overinflated stats due to system. His rookie year was meh by every measure except lots of yard.



The system, right. You mean the system where the Colts just decided to run with the 3-headed monster of Donald Brown, Vick Ballard, and Delone Carter? Might as well have just had zero running backs on the roster. Luck did, literally, everything for the Colts last year. He led the team in yards per carry and rushing TD's. He took a shit-ass team to the playoffs with seven 4th-quarter, come from behind victories as a rookie. Have the Browns even had seven 4th quarter come from behind victories since 1999?

A fumble every other game for a "pocket passer" is absurd, especially since Indy had a solid OL. Let's not pretend like that team wasn't two years removed from the playoffs.



Let's also remember they gutted their entire team including 3/5 of their offensive line, one of which is a no doubt HOF'er. He had one target, Reggie Wayne, to throw to and no offensive line or running game.


I still think it's funny that you think this is Andrew Luck. Like last year was his ceiling.
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Re: Come the Gold Rush

Unread postby jb » Fri Sep 13, 2013 11:01 am

In 10 years from now, white QB's will be as prevalent as they are at all other skilled positions.

That's where the game is going.
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Re: Come the Gold Rush

Unread postby jb » Fri Sep 13, 2013 11:03 am

peeker643 wrote:
Glad to see we have this thread after all this time though. It pretty much sums up why I cried on draft night 2012. Starting with pick 35 in 2011, spiking upward with trade up for pick 3 in 2012 and then causing aneurysm w/pick 22 in 2012.

Fucking motherless motherfuckers running the show those years.

Meh... spilt milk and all that. We'll be fine. Things seem to be shaping up nicely.



Uncle.

To me, it all comes down to this for what you can put on Weeds as opposed to the scroats around him: Johnny can't read.
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Re: Come the Gold Rush

Unread postby FUDU » Fri Sep 13, 2013 11:23 am

jb wrote:In 10 years from now, white QB's will be as prevalent as they are at all other skilled positions.

That's where the game is going.


You realize you are just perpetuating the stereotype that you in fact were criticizing earlier in the thread?

But point taken, I think it is a bit more accurate to say the pure pocket passer in college better get his degree from now on.
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Re: Come the Gold Rush

Unread postby jb » Fri Sep 13, 2013 11:52 am

FUDU wrote:
jb wrote:In 10 years from now, white QB's will be as prevalent as they are at all other skilled positions.

That's where the game is going.


You realize you are just perpetuating the stereotype that you in fact were criticizing earlier in the thread?

But point taken, I think it is a bit more accurate to say the pure pocket passer in college better get his degree from now on.



i didn't think I was.

Look, people can get all PC all they want. They can get offended. They can dance around the issue.

The day's of the QB being some different chess piece on the board from the other 4 skilled position players on O are ending. The QB will now be an athlete in addition to all he's had to do in the past.

For years football was institutionally racist. Only a fool would argue that. Change takes time to bubble up.

Now you have had the spread as the dominant offensive scheme at all levels except the NFL for a full decade. The QB now has elements of athleticism not seen since the adoption of the T formation. The pipeline is now wide open without bias. They will need all Hiko has banged the drum about.... and more to be elite. The spread will allow different skill sets to show themselves in ways not accepted on Sunday.

The inevitable will occur just as it does for all other athletic endeavors on an equal access playing field. Just as it did in the NBA with point guards and NFL with MLB's. Sure, there are white cats who can play and will be represented just like at WR. But the ethnic composition you saw 5 years ago at NFL QB you will never see again.

I do not lament, politicize, agendacize or celebrate. This is a water is wet proposition for me.

When you now need a QB to be mobile and run a 4.6 to compete, and run a 4.4 to be exceptional, what do you think is going to happen?
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Re: Come the Gold Rush

Unread postby FUDU » Fri Sep 13, 2013 11:59 am

Agreed, just wanted to point out that one comment you made.

So yeah, by necessity to stay in the game the floods gates will probably open.

Humor me, why didn't somebody do this in the 80s with Randall, or with anyone of the player Xs in the 90s? Was the offense alien technology back then? I find that hard to believe.
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Re: Come the Gold Rush

Unread postby jb » Fri Sep 13, 2013 12:17 pm

FUDU wrote:Agreed, just wanted to point out that one comment you made.

So yeah, by necessity to stay in the game the floods gates will probably open.

Humor me, why didn't somebody do this in the 80s with Randall, or with anyone of the player Xs in the 90s? Was the offense alien technology back then? I find that hard to believe.



I don't.

Read Hiko's posts this week. It's not like he's dumb or anything. he's one of the best posters I've ever read on any forum in the 20 uears of my life I've pissed away doing this. He's got a first-rate mind, wicked humor and he can write and debate like hell.

Minds.... parachutes.... prerequisites.... that sort.

If a Hiko still don't reflect, yo, wither the Joe Pendry's of the world two decades before Urban Meyer got to the Ohio flatlands?

I'm on records three years ago: the first NFL HC who commits to the spread will either be a genius or a disaster. NFL coaching circles are a group-think, monkey-see-monkey-so culture. These guys can tell you from working 20 hour days whether a DL'mans index finger aligned a half inch one way or another shows blitz or zone drop.

But innovate?

Not in their frat's culture.
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Re: Come the Gold Rush

Unread postby FUDU » Fri Sep 13, 2013 12:20 pm

Paul Brown would have done it.
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Re: Come the Gold Rush

Unread postby jb » Fri Sep 13, 2013 1:06 pm

FUDU wrote:Paul Brown would have done it.



maybe that's why PB is where he is in NFL annals? Because he was that exceptional?
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Re: Come the Gold Rush

Unread postby mattvan1 » Fri Sep 13, 2013 1:12 pm

jb wrote:NFL coaching circles are a group-think, monkey-see-monkey-so culture. These guys can tell you from working 20 hour days whether a DL'mans index finger aligned a half inch one way or another shows blitz or zone drop.

But innovate?

Not in their frat's culture.


Truth. Almost like what used to be called "the trades". You learned a craft/vocation from some older more experienced guy who knew the ropes - tool and dye maker, house framer, tile layer, mechanic, whatever. You did what he did because that was the way.

The NFL is really very similar. Those who think outside the box are typically mocked, until they start having success, in which case they are imitated.
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Re: Come the Gold Rush

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Fri Sep 13, 2013 4:13 pm

rebel, I never said Luck was at his ceiling, but if you watched that team play and think it was Luck and Wayne versus the world on O, I'm sorry you're nuts.

As to not having a running game, sure, again what weapons besides Lynch did Wilson have.

The point is simple, Luck had an incredibly meh rookie year from every single aspect. He's probably not at his ceiling but how about we let HorseFace 2 show us that he is actually, you know, good instead of clinging to smoke and mirrors wins that were put together in the least efficient means possible before we proclaim him QB geezes.

I can't believe that you are even arguing this. His season was far more Tim Couch than it was anyone else. Did he show potential... yep... but until he actually starts to, you know, show he can be an efficient QB it's nothing but potential.

If you want to go player by player and talk about this titanic offensive force that Russ played with be my guest, otherwise just STFU about poor Andrew and his young offense. When the kid puts it together he can take the title of GREATEST QB PROSPECT IN A DECADE!#$%!%! until then he is exactly what he showed, a inefficient kid that chucked the fuck out of the ball for a year.
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Re: Come the Gold Rush

Unread postby motherscratcher » Fri Sep 13, 2013 4:24 pm

Luck was the best QB prospect in a decade. Especially if we are talking about conventional QBs.

Doesnt the word "prospect" convey a certain level of uncertainty? What's the point of retroactively deciding who was the best prospect? Ryan Leaf and Tony Mandrich were pretty good prospects.
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Re: Come the Gold Rush

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Fri Sep 13, 2013 4:35 pm

motherscratcher wrote:Luck was the best QB prospect in a decade. Especially if we are talking about conventional QBs.

Doesnt the word "prospect" convey a certain level of uncertainty? What's the point of retroactively deciding who was the best prospect? Ryan Leaf and Tony Mandrich were pretty good prospects.


Learn to live in the present mother. I don't care about what the feelings were on draft day 2012.

Also RGIII was a better prospect to anyone with a brain that actually watched Stanford and Baylor play.
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Re: Come the Gold Rush

Unread postby motherscratcher » Fri Sep 13, 2013 5:15 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:
motherscratcher wrote:Luck was the best QB prospect in a decade. Especially if we are talking about conventional QBs.

Doesnt the word "prospect" convey a certain level of uncertainty? What's the point of retroactively deciding who was the best prospect? Ryan Leaf and Tony Mandrich were pretty good prospects.


Learn to live in the present mother. I don't care about what the feelings were on draft day 2012.

Also RGIII was a better prospect to anyone with a brain that actually watched Stanford and Baylor play.


I am living in the present. I preferred RG3 then and I'd prefer him now. And I was devastated when we were denied by Chip Kelly , especially after he looked like such a sure thing.

But it makes no sense to hold against someone the opinion that Luck was a great prospect. He was, and it wasn't an uncommon opinion. The fact that his Rookie season was meh ( and I'm not arguing with you about that because I didn't really see him play much, and your posts seem pretty reasonable in that regard) has fuck-all to do with his status as a prospect before he got to the league. That's all I'm saying.
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Re: Come the Gold Rush

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Fri Sep 13, 2013 5:36 pm

And I'm saying that second year QBs that had meh rookie seasons and are clinging to their ceiling are still prospects and Luck is not the best QB prospect EVAH!!! as has been posted and repeated around here hundreds of times.

He is a guy who showed as a chucker and has a long way to go to live up to any hype.

If I were posting the same about a second year pitcher being a prospect still you'd get my point, why is a QB different? In the present he had a meh rookie season and I don't give two fucks about what people said last year. Hell now rebel is running around yelling "BUT HIS CEILING!@!!$ BUT HIS CEILING!@#!".

That's prospect talk.
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Re: Come the Gold Rush

Unread postby motherscratcher » Fri Sep 13, 2013 5:49 pm

OK, I can get with that. Makes sense
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Re: Come the Gold Rush

Unread postby rebelwithoutaclue » Fri Sep 13, 2013 7:55 pm

Luck's rookie season was only meh compared to two of the greatest rookie seasons ever that happened to come in the same year. We all forget that people would have sacrificed their first born for the chance to draft him as a sophomore. Yes, his completion percentage was shit but the defense was dropping 7 back almost every play because why rush more than four when there's no semblance of a running game.


And Wilson had a monster running game and no receivers; we all know this. That's why he threw 60% less passes than Luck. 60% less passes with the same INT% as the TURNOVER MACHINE Luck. Luck was the entire Indy offense last year; Wilson was just a caretaker.


78% completion% in the first game of his second year, albeit against the sorry Raiders. I'm calling it for the season: 4,500 yards, 63% comp%, 2.5:1 TD:INT ratio with 30+ TD's.


You think I'm talking up Luck as a prospect or his ceiling? I'd take him today over Russell Wilson though I'd take Kap and a healthy RG3 over Luck.
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Re: Come the Gold Rush

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Fri Sep 13, 2013 8:00 pm

If Luck does that gawd speed, but if you want to talk about last week's numbers you should also look at what Russ did....

Luck is talked about as SUPER GAWD and again he wasn't SUPER GAWD as a rookie. I have no idea why you keep arguing this. You think he'll be great this year. If he is, he is, if not he's not. His story isn't written but you can't look at what he did and talk about it being some incredible season. Quantity <> Quality, period.

Christ, you watched DA play, right? Not saying he's anything like Luck but chucking the ball a ton of times <> shit. Prove you can do it efficiently and without two turnovers a game and we'll talk.

PS: Talking about Wilson's turnover rate without mentioning the fact that his TD rate literally eats and shits out Luck's is about as disingenuous a use of stats as I've ever seen and Pros posts here.
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Re: Come the Gold Rush

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Fri Sep 13, 2013 8:02 pm

mattvan1 wrote:
jb wrote:NFL coaching circles are a group-think, monkey-see-monkey-so culture. These guys can tell you from working 20 hour days whether a DL'mans index finger aligned a half inch one way or another shows blitz or zone drop.

But innovate?

Not in their frat's culture.


Truth. Almost like what used to be called "the trades". You learned a craft/vocation from some older more experienced guy who knew the ropes - tool and dye maker, house framer, tile layer, mechanic, whatever. You did what he did because that was the way.

The NFL is really very similar. Those who think outside the box are typically mocked, until they start having success, in which case they are imitated.


That all said, you can't get to the spread without the Air Coryell, Bill Walsh, etc of the world.

The spread is a new concept because it's the obvious next step in the evolutionary path the game has been on for some time.
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Re: Come the Gold Rush

Unread postby rebelwithoutaclue » Fri Sep 13, 2013 8:03 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:PS: Talking about Wilson's turnover rate without mentioning the fact that his TD rate literally eats and shits out Luck's is about as disingenuous a use of stats as I've ever seen and Pros posts here.



You brought up the turnovers; that's what I compared.
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Re: Come the Gold Rush

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Fri Sep 13, 2013 8:04 pm

If Luck scored as many TDs as Russ his turnover problems wouldn't be nearly as absurd. I only mentioned the 1:1 TD to INT rate 500x in this discussion.
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Re: Come the Gold Rush

Unread postby rebelwithoutaclue » Fri Sep 13, 2013 8:18 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:If Luck scored as many TDs as Russ his turnover problems wouldn't be nearly as absurd. I only mentioned the 1:1 TD to INT rate 500x in this discussion.



PS: Russel Wilson is a better NFL QB today that Luck. I'm pretty sure FUDU has a Colt fetish. Christ, Luck averaged a pick every 1.1 throws last year.


That would be 570 interceptions on 627 attempts.


Seriously? Did anyone watch Horse Face play last year? Pick every 1.1 attempts. When he stops doing that you can all talk about how awesome he is.


He never did that.


Luck would have thrown a pick every .5 attempts with those two as his WR.


Wow 2 picks for every 1 attempt? Surely not even Derek Anderson could pull off that feat.


You may have thought that you were mentioning that but I can only read what you wrote and what you wrote made no fucking sense until you just explained it. If you had actually compared Total TD:Turnover ratios, we probably wouldn't be having this discussion.
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Re: Come the Gold Rush

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Fri Sep 13, 2013 8:20 pm

Seriously, I was being sarcastic with the threw a pick every 1.1 attempts, if you are that stupid to think I was using that number as sincerity, LOL.

And I promise, if you can read, after you started this ridiculous defense of a meh season I mentioned the 1:1 turnover to TD ratio plenty (when you acted as if I actually thought Luck threw a pick every 1.1 attempts, LOLOLOL).

Seriously try and breathe a little, it's the fucking internet.
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Re: Come the Gold Rush

Unread postby rebelwithoutaclue » Fri Sep 13, 2013 8:27 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:Seriously, I was being sarcastic with the threw a pick every 1.1 attempts, if you are that stupid to think I was using that number as sincerity, LOL.

And I promise, if you can read, after you started this ridiculous defense of a meh season I mentioned the 1:1 turnover to TD ratio plenty (when you acted as if I actually thought Luck threw a pick every 1.1 attempts, LOLOLOL).



You mentioned that 3 times before I even entered the thread. I even asked you about it in my first post and in typical eeyore fashion, no response except to deflect and attack. Again, I can only read what you wrote, sorry my computer sarcasm detector isn't on and I can't tell your disparaging Luck while praising Wilson for having the same INT%.


Seriously try and breathe a little, it's the fucking internet.


Coming from you, this may be the funniest thing I've ever seen on the internet. Thanks for the laugh.
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Re: Come the Gold Rush

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Fri Sep 13, 2013 8:31 pm

At least I know sarcasm when I see it, LOL.

Seriously, you wrote 5,000 words because of THAT.

HA!

You need to poor yourself a drink. Or ten.
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Re: Come the Gold Rush

Unread postby rebelwithoutaclue » Fri Sep 13, 2013 8:36 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:At least I know sarcasm when I see it, LOL.

Seriously, you wrote 5,000 words because of THAT.

HA!

You need to poor yourself a drink. Or ten.



Geez eye, you got me. You can detect internet sarcasm better than I. If we're going for real low blows like that though, I just have to ask; what's with all the LOLs? Are you a 12-year old girl? Are you really laughing out loud or just being sarcastic about it? You know I have trouble telling the difference...



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Re: Come the Gold Rush

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Fri Sep 13, 2013 8:44 pm

Oh I'm laughing.
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Re: Come the Gold Rush

Unread postby FUDU » Sat Sep 14, 2013 1:30 am

JFC, nobody is suggesting Wilson sucks, compared to Drew Luck or in general period.

Wilson is a good young QB, so is Luck. They were both rookies last year, in which like all rookies are eligible for some BOD b/c they were rookies. They failures are excusable to an extent and their successes to be taken with a grain of salt.

It's obvious you haven't watched much of both, or for certain much of Luck b/c it is plain to see he carried much more of a load than Wilson.

It could be argued Wilson is the beneficiary of the Joe Flacco scenario, a top flight defense to not only keep him in games but win games as well. Not to mention a known commodity in the running game. Fuck Lynch ran for 100 yrds 10 freaking times last year, the D only gave up 20pts 4 times. Such a D doesn't allow for many come from behinds.

Meanwhile Indy had one 100 yrd rusher the entire season, All Pro Wayne broke 100 yrds WRing 3 times. Luck threw 10 if his INTs in 4 games, including 3 in a game twice in that span. While their D gave up 20pts or more 7 times.

Luck was pretty much close to doing it all for Indy, Wilson, not quite really. Luck might have won 6-8 games all by himself.

I mean FFS talk about a guy basing an opinion on box scores.
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Re: Come the Gold Rush

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Sat Sep 14, 2013 3:12 am

^ has me laughing even harder now. Calling someone a box score reader only when you write a response that literally makes zero sense for the arguments that you are replying to is FUDUTASTIC.

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Re: Come the Gold Rush

Unread postby FUDU » Sat Sep 14, 2013 8:07 am

^ hasn't watched Luck play as a pro.

< has.
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Re: Come the Gold Rush

Unread postby leadpipe » Sat Sep 14, 2013 9:10 am

FUDU wrote:JFC, nobody is suggesting Wilson sucks, compared to Drew Luck or in general period.

Wilson is a good young QB, so is Luck. They were both rookies last year, in which like all rookies are eligible for some BOD b/c they were rookies. They failures are excusable to an extent and their successes to be taken with a grain of salt.

It's obvious you haven't watched much of both, or for certain much of Luck b/c it is plain to see he carried much more of a load than Wilson.

It could be argued Wilson is the beneficiary of the Joe Flacco scenario, a top flight defense to not only keep him in games but win games as well. Not to mention a known commodity in the running game. Fuck Lynch ran for 100 yrds 10 freaking times last year, the D only gave up 20pts 4 times. Such a D doesn't allow for many come from behinds.

Meanwhile Indy had one 100 yrd rusher the entire season, All Pro Wayne broke 100 yrds WRing 3 times. Luck threw 10 if his INTs in 4 games, including 3 in a game twice in that span. While their D gave up 20pts or more 7 times.

Luck was pretty much close to doing it all for Indy, Wilson, not quite really. Luck might have won 6-8 games all by himself.

I mean FFS talk about a guy basing an opinion on box scores.


Not close to a "Joe Flacco scenario", or whatever we want to call it.

Look at Seattle's 2nd half last year. Christ, once they got Wilson going full bore they had to average about 35 a game (Someone can look up the exact total, but I'm sure I'm pretty close) what defense is bailing anyone out, or keeping anyone in of those games?

Look, two things about Luck that are important, one good, one not so good.

1. The guy faced about the easiest schedule on GGE. I understand he carried about all the load - but what a collection of rummys they played.

2. Luck showed that if he gets the ball in the end, the game ain't too big for him. Pretty simple, but important, cause some guys never get this. (Although Wilson looks like he has that as well)

But really, you can't turn the ball over in the league and win consistently - especially when you start playing good teams. I assume Luck will get better with this, but the fact of the matter is, that at this point in their careers - if they ended today, it ain't really close as to who the better player is.
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Re: Come the Gold Rush

Unread postby FUDU » Sat Sep 14, 2013 9:35 am

Well now your just picking & choosing when winning is considered important. Can't have the argument both ways. You can dance around it all you want but Wilson was very much in a Joe Flacco situation in that he had a super defense that could and did carry that team on most occasions. So if winning matters, as much as it does in all the other "which QB is better debates" you cannot ignore what is a huge part of why Seattle wins. Don't take this as I'm downgrading Wilson, I'm not, I like him. Now and in real time I was kind of wishing the Browns got their hand on him.

We're only one game in so far this year so we'll obviously see how that situation progresses.

Right now they're both 1-0, beating meh teams, and looking pretty damn efficient and good in doing so.
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Re: Come the Gold Rush

Unread postby peeker643 » Sat Sep 14, 2013 9:56 am

Well, I'll say this and it has nothing to do with anything: I'll take Russell Wilson, Bruce Irvin and Bobby Wagner over Andrew Luck and a couple meh TEs today. And I'll give you the annual drug suspension time for Irvin.

You have to give the props to teams that know WTF they're doing and the Seahawks haul in the first three rounds in 2012 much, much, much > Colts. Part of the reason they had such a great defense is Wagner and Irvin and they came before Wilson.

That, to me, is the overriding point. Harbaugh went apeshit over Kaepernick in 2011 and Carroll had to have Wilson in 2012. Any coincidence the orgs that make these picks and decisions are at the top of the NFL food chain?

Flip a coin between Wilson and Luck. And I like Luck and believe people are underselling his ability to get outside the pocket and make as many plays with his legs as Cam or RG3 if he so chooses. He's an elite athlete and people sleep on that fact.

Meh... who gives a shit, really. We'd take either here in a heartbeat. It's just that someone from these boards would need to make the pick because apparently the only people not seeing shit for how it is work out of Berea.
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Re: Come the Gold Rush

Unread postby FUDU » Sat Sep 14, 2013 10:02 am

True that. I think I'm to the point that all I want from the Browns is good QB play even if we lost 15 games. I'd deal with finding the other players as we go at that point. I mean we're going to lose 75% of that many games anyway, what's the F'n difference at that point.

It's beyond frustrating.
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Re: Come the Gold Rush

Unread postby leadpipe » Sat Sep 14, 2013 1:11 pm

FUDU wrote:Well now your just picking & choosing when winning is considered important. Can't have the argument both ways. You can dance around it all you want but Wilson was very much in a Joe Flacco situation in that he had a super defense that could and did carry that team on most occasions. So if winning matters, as much as it does in all the other "which QB is better debates" you cannot ignore what is a huge part of why Seattle wins. Don't take this as I'm downgrading Wilson, I'm not, I like him. Now and in real time I was kind of wishing the Browns got their hand on him.

We're only one game in so far this year so we'll obviously see how that situation progresses.

Right now they're both 1-0, beating meh teams, and looking pretty damn efficient and good in doing so.


Saying the defense "carried them on most occasions" is incorrect.

Again, how much did they depend on them the entire second half of the season where they were averaging 35, and hanging occasional fitties?

The easy schedule contributed more wins to the Colts than Seattle's defense (as good as it is) contrubuted to Seahawk wins.

And, when you play the good teams, as has been shown over and over again in the last couple years of playoffs - you better be ready to score 40 anyways, whether you're Seattle, San Fran, or any other team with a "great" defense.

Ehh, at the end of the day, Peeker is right - I'd take either one in a heartbeat. And the more I think about it, the more it makes the argument kind of pointless. Not to mention that I have no earthly idea who will BECOME the better player.
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Re: Come the Gold Rush

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Sat Sep 14, 2013 1:46 pm

FUDU's still carrying on as if my point wasn't that Luck isn't GAWDS GIFT TO QB PROSPECTS?

Because that was my point and anyone that disagrees with it is pretty much a piece of white trash that rolled into this thread once JB activated their inner racist and got all "MUST SAVE WHITE QB" on everyone.

Luck had a gawd damn meh year last year, shouldering the load or not. He had moments where he showed fucking great and moments where he looked like a complete and utter turnover machine (those fumbles just magically disappeared from FUDU's super deep turnover analysis).

Russel WIlson didn't exactly walk into the Broncos offense either and he looked better than just about anyone the second half of last year.

That said, frankly, I don't care who you take between Wilson and Luck, the fact that we are having this discussion should be enough for me to never again have to read about how Andrew Fucking Luck is the greatest QB prospect ever. He's not.

But as usual, FUDU comes into a thread after a discussion was actually over and starts arguing points for absolutely no reason and that absolutely no one made.

Man though, if Luck had managed to score at greater than a 1TD to Every turnover rate last year imagine how many wins the Colts would have had?!
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Re: Come the Gold Rush

Unread postby hebner20 » Sat Sep 14, 2013 2:38 pm

Innovation is exploiting the status quo to your advantage.

The pendulum has swung. It will swing back.

In football and in real life. Heed.

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Re: Come the Gold Rush

Unread postby motherscratcher » Sat Sep 14, 2013 3:45 pm

FUDU wrote:True that. I think I'm to the point that all I want from the Browns is good QB play even if we lost 15 games. I'd deal with finding the other players as we go at that point. I mean we're going to lose 75% of that many games anyway, what's the F'n difference at that point.

It's beyond frustrating.


At this point, I think it's virtually impossible to lose 75% of your games while getting good QB play.
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Re: Come the Gold Rush

Unread postby FUDU » Sat Sep 14, 2013 4:27 pm

Classic Corky post. Spout off about a guy he doesn't watch, spew completely inaccurate stats, and then back peddle saying "I'm joking, I'm joking". Then when it all comes crashing down fall back on on making it about race garbage.

Funny shit no doubt.
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