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If a tree falls in Cleveland,

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If a tree falls in Cleveland,

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Sun Sep 08, 2013 1:15 am

the Indians make the playoffs, and no one is around to hear it, does it count?

Move the team to Vegas.
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Re: If a tree falls in Cleveland,

Unread postby FUDU » Sun Sep 08, 2013 9:34 am

As strange as it is, IF this team gets a playoff game, it will sell out.

We're not Atlanta.
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Re: If a tree falls in Cleveland,

Unread postby Dellucci TailGator » Sun Sep 08, 2013 9:59 am

Oh, it would be a sellout, but the first playoff game to ever sell out because of 10,000 walk-ups on game day.
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Re: If a tree falls in Cleveland,

Unread postby Adverb Harry » Sun Sep 08, 2013 10:33 am

Here in Cleveland? I didn't know they still had a team!
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Re: If a tree falls in Cleveland,

Unread postby FUDU » Sun Sep 08, 2013 10:46 am

Yep, we have uniforms and everything, it's really great.
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Re: If a tree falls in Cleveland,

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Sun Sep 08, 2013 5:24 pm

Baseball just needs to be over. They had all summer to go "hey look at me, i'm still a good product, come pay to get sunburn. AMERICAS PASTIME AMERICAS PASTIME LALALALALALALLALALLALALLALALALALALALALALAAL!!!!"

Fuck off.
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Re: If a tree falls in Cleveland,

Unread postby motherscratcher » Sun Sep 08, 2013 5:32 pm

I've been saying all along that if they win the fans will show up.

So, I'm just going to shut up and go over and stand in the corner.
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Re: If a tree falls in Cleveland,

Unread postby leadpipe » Sun Sep 08, 2013 5:39 pm

motherscratcher wrote:I've been saying all along that if they win the fans will show up.

So, I'm just going to shut up and go over and stand in the corner.


It really is a little suprising. It seems as if even the bandwagon has left town.

Baseball is almost entirely a regional sport at this juncture.

MLB knows this just like you and I.

A team not drawing regionally, sans a dedicated regional owner is a pretty big problem. Especially in a struggling city.

Those opining for the Dolans to sell better hope they pick the right buyer, cause the "man" from the MLB front office ain't gonna swoop down and save the franchise decribed above from going to a region that will draw.

Perhaps starting all the playoff games at midnight will encourage a younger audience?
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Re: If a tree falls in Cleveland,

Unread postby Pressrunnr » Sun Sep 08, 2013 8:50 pm

From what I can tell, Cleveland fans are so pissed about the Browns today, they may never watch an Indians game again.
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Re: If a tree falls in Cleveland,

Unread postby pod2dawg » Sun Sep 08, 2013 8:53 pm

Heard the Indians may move to Baltimore.
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Re: If a tree falls in Cleveland,

Unread postby skatingtripods » Sun Sep 08, 2013 9:13 pm

motherscratcher wrote:I've been saying all along that if they win the fans will show up.

So, I'm just going to shut up and go over and stand in the corner.


They haven't won anything yet.

Contention's not good enough for a city whose football team is out of the playoff picture by the second week of the season and whose basketball team was single-handedly saved by a lucky ping pong ball.
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Re: If a tree falls in Cleveland,

Unread postby FUDU » Sun Sep 08, 2013 9:32 pm

skatingtripods wrote:
motherscratcher wrote:I've been saying all along that if they win the fans will show up.

So, I'm just going to shut up and go over and stand in the corner.


They haven't won anything yet.

Contention's not good enough for a city whose football team is out of the playoff picture by the second week of the season and whose basketball team was single-handedly saved by a lucky ping pong ball.


Twice
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Re: If a tree falls in Cleveland,

Unread postby mattvan1 » Sun Sep 08, 2013 10:57 pm

Why do you guys continue to have this conversation again and again and again ad nauseam?

Bill Veek cold come back from the grave and have fireworks and midgets and dollar dogs, but the number of walk ups is limited.....and for the most part predictable.

It's all about the season ticket base, which has been proven to lag behind the success of the on field product by one season.

The season ticket base is down by at least 15,000 or so from the "Era of Champions". No amount of "we might win 87 and make a one game do or die playoff" is gonna make up for -15,000.
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Re: If a tree falls in Cleveland,

Unread postby Spin » Mon Sep 09, 2013 1:28 am

It was brought up somewhere else that the reason attendance has lagged is because we have so many minor league teams in NE Ohio. You have the Aeros, Captains, Scrappers, Crushers, and IronMen. A little to the south is the Clippers (in a very nice park).

BUT, those seasons are done. Browns attendace hasn't increased sine we sold out 400 games in a row. You can't blame anyone else.

The typical fan can see right through this staff. Shap had the worst drafts in MLB history, and the farm system is bare. Which would get you fired anywhere else, but here it gets you PROMOTED. They bring in veterans, get production from some of them, but have no trade bait to put the last pieces together. The staff is not playoff quality. The hitting is sporadic. So even if they make the playoffs, they can't compete against the big teams. Not when they get swept by them in the regular season.

Fans expect more than that for their money.
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Re: If a tree falls in Cleveland,

Unread postby dazindiansfanuk » Mon Sep 09, 2013 8:14 am

Spin wrote:The typical fan can see right through this staff. Shap had the worst drafts in MLB history, and the farm system is bare. Which would get you fired anywhere else, but here it gets you PROMOTED. They bring in veterans, get production from some of them, but have no trade bait to put the last pieces together. The staff is not playoff quality. The hitting is sporadic. So even if they make the playoffs, they can't compete against the big teams. Not when they get swept by them in the regular season.

Fans expect more than that for their money.



I think you might be giving the "typical fan" too much credit!

I'd venture a guess the "typical fan" probably couldn't even name more than three pitchers on the entire staff let alone form an educated opinion about them.
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Re: If a tree falls in Cleveland,

Unread postby Govbarney » Mon Sep 09, 2013 9:19 am

Pressrunnr wrote:From what I can tell, Cleveland fans are so pissed about the Browns today, they may never watch an Indians game again.


:lmfao: Its funny because its true.
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Re: If a tree falls in Cleveland,

Unread postby skatingtripods » Mon Sep 09, 2013 10:01 am

mattvan1 wrote:Why do you guys continue to have this conversation again and again and again ad nauseam?

It's all about the season ticket base, which has been proven to lag behind the success of the on field product by one season.

The season ticket base is down by at least 15,000 or so from the "Era of Champions". No amount of "we might win 87 and make a one game do or die playoff" is gonna make up for -15,000.


They had 24,861 per game in 2005 and 28,505 per game in 2007. But they're only drawing 19,495 per game in 2013 because of season ticket holders lost from the 1990s and early 2000s?

14,539 per for a six-game homestand in September during a season of contention is fucking pathetic, season ticket holder base or not.

A low season ticket holder base is obviously a problem. No one will disagree with that point. But TV ratings are way up and attendance is the worst it has ever been in the Jacobs Field era. So, interest is reasonably high, but attendance is not. That's more than just a season ticket holder problem.
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Re: If a tree falls in Cleveland,

Unread postby pod2dawg » Mon Sep 09, 2013 11:54 am

Mortgage, utilities, gasoline, school tuition, food prices, insurance, taxes, taxes, and taxes. The 12 checks I write out every quarter to GOVERNMENT Agencies to employ people & run a business.

That is what my problem is and why I haven't attended as many games.
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Re: If a tree falls in Cleveland,

Unread postby mattvan1 » Mon Sep 09, 2013 5:26 pm

skatingtripods wrote:
mattvan1 wrote:Why do you guys continue to have this conversation again and again and again ad nauseam?

It's all about the season ticket base, which has been proven to lag behind the success of the on field product by one season.

The season ticket base is down by at least 15,000 or so from the "Era of Champions". No amount of "we might win 87 and make a one game do or die playoff" is gonna make up for -15,000.


They had 24,861 per game in 2005 and 28,505 per game in 2007. But they're only drawing 19,495 per game in 2013 because of season ticket holders lost from the 1990s and early 2000s?

14,539 per for a six-game homestand in September during a season of contention is fucking pathetic, season ticket holder base or not.

A low season ticket holder base is obviously a problem. No one will disagree with that point. But TV ratings are way up and attendance is the worst it has ever been in the Jacobs Field era. So, interest is reasonably high, but attendance is not. That's more than just a season ticket holder problem.


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Re: If a tree falls in Cleveland,

Unread postby pup » Mon Sep 09, 2013 6:47 pm

So they won, increased their season tickets base, treated those people like shit, sucked and traded away what was left?

Can't imagine why people are so skeptical.
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Re: If a tree falls in Cleveland,

Unread postby OldDawg » Mon Sep 09, 2013 8:54 pm

There's a tree in Cleveland???
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Re: If a tree falls in Cleveland,

Unread postby Pressrunnr » Tue Sep 10, 2013 12:19 am

Yeah, Clevelandes are right. The way the Tigers have beat them up proves that even if they do eke out a playoff berth they don't stand a chance. Why, I haven't seen a team roll over the Tribe this bad in the regular season since the Yankees in '07.
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Re: If a tree falls in Cleveland,

Unread postby 7foot3 » Tue Sep 10, 2013 2:17 pm

Spin wrote:and the farm system is bare.



I know this is a repeated thing among the fans, but when McAllister, Kluber, and Salazar come out of the minors to save this team's ass when it desperately needed some SP, I have to think that the fans who complain about the farm are fucking clueless.
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Re: If a tree falls in Cleveland,

Unread postby Toxicadam » Tue Sep 10, 2013 3:58 pm

The problem is that people view the mid-90's as the norm and not the abberation. The truth is that for more than 40 years now this club has usually drawn nothing in the way of attendence. As industry, business and people with money have moved out of town, so has that 'base' of season ticket holders to go with it.

Increased gas prices hasn't helped either. That 10 bucks in gas it cost you in the late 90's to get to/back from the stadium is now 36 dollars.

I don't really have any answers to how it can be fixed. The stadium is still nice, the experience is still good, they are generous with giveaways and specials, the team is winning ... but it's just not enough. All signs point to it being a location problem.
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Re: If a tree falls in Cleveland,

Unread postby googleeph2 » Tue Sep 10, 2013 4:37 pm

Toxicadam wrote:All signs point to it being a location problem.


Some signs do, but many have gone to great pains to also point out:

- lag time between winning and attendance. Just like the lag time between beginning to lose and lack of attendance.
- the tanking of the team in recent years, and continued inability to beat eg. Detroit. & resulting erosion of season ticket base.
- problems with the franchise's timing with offseason ticket sales- and generally poor publicity machine for the team. They should be really promoting guys like Kipnis in the offseason. They are horrible at promoting that team.
- They are in contention, fighting with a handful of teams for the 2nd WC- but it is with pitching. If they were in the same position but had a couple thumpers in the lineup instead of reliable starting pitchers, I'd be pretty down on them but a lot of casual fans- and kids - would love it. (chicks dig...)

But bottom line, WC or no WC, Tribe fans are just not convinced the team is a contender. From the TV ratings, my take is they are close to the tipping point though. They are out there, and will be back if they begin to believe.

Or maybe if there is some other catalyst, like maybe if some exciting young guy comes up and starts getting a lot of hype. Combine last night's Jose Ramirez hit and scoring on a groundout- type of play, with winning several games with skill & hustle, with a media & fan-friendly personality. Probably not on the roster right now though.
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Re: If a tree falls in Cleveland,

Unread postby googleeph2 » Tue Sep 10, 2013 4:42 pm

Pressrunnr wrote:From what I can tell, Cleveland fans are so pissed about the Browns today, they may never watch an Indians game again.


Funny
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Re: If a tree falls in Cleveland,

Unread postby googleeph2 » Tue Sep 10, 2013 4:45 pm

Toxicadam wrote: The truth is that for more than 40 years now this club has usually drawn nothing in the way of attendence.


Truth. Attendance shown in avatar to left was typical.
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Re: If a tree falls in Cleveland,

Unread postby RedDawg53 » Tue Sep 10, 2013 4:51 pm

Well... they are Always on tv. I suppose if they weren't on tv as much more people would attend the actual game in Cleveland.

With that said... as for me living approx 100 miles away. It's a bit different. It's an all day thing just about. Leave around 2:00-4:00pm. Game ends around 9:30-10:30.. sometimes later. I usually get back home around midnight to 1:00am.

Money isn't much of an issue with me. It's the time involved in to attending an Indians game. I'm a single father to a 4 year old girl. Work 48-60 hours a week during the spring/summer. Finding a sitter is difficult, especially on weekends (and no, my daughter isn't yet able to sit still more than 5 minutes without my tying her to the seat... a few years away before she'll go to an actual game).

Still I've been to 8 games (that's counting the Yanks doubleheader).
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Re: If a tree falls in Cleveland,

Unread postby FUDU » Tue Sep 10, 2013 8:19 pm

googleeph2 wrote:
Toxicadam wrote: The truth is that for more than 40 years now this club has usually drawn nothing in the way of attendence.


Truth. Attendance shown in avatar to left was typical.


This isn't a true baseball town. A lot of baby boomers and old timers gets pissed when I say that and usually point to the 40's 50's and 60's. OK fine. That was 50 freaking years ago. In the past 40 years as noted this franchise has historically not drawn fans in droves except for 3 games a year and that 8 year era of "champions" at the end of last century.
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Re: If a tree falls in Cleveland,

Unread postby peeker643 » Wed Sep 11, 2013 9:40 am

7foot3 wrote:
Spin wrote:and the farm system is bare.



I know this is a repeated thing among the fans, but when McAllister, Kluber, and Salazar come out of the minors to save this team's ass when it desperately needed some SP, I have to think that the fans who complain about the farm are fucking clueless.


This.

Show me the organization that's running two or three of their young prospects out there every single day (not even including Cody Allen in the discussion) to play meaningful games.

There's a dearth of position options right now but that's hopefully being addressed.

There's not a team in baseball that can fill every MLB hole with a viable, quality prospect. Doesn't happen.

The farm system is anything but bare. Some of it is already saving their ass now and more is a year or two away.
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Re: If a tree falls in Cleveland,

Unread postby Spin » Wed Sep 11, 2013 10:08 am

7foot3 wrote:
Spin wrote:and the farm system is bare.



I know this is a repeated thing among the fans, but when McAllister, Kluber, and Salazar come out of the minors to save this team's ass when it desperately needed some SP, I have to think that the fans who complain about the farm are fucking clueless.


Who could we afford to trade at the trade deadline this year to bring in another arm, or another bat? The prospects that are there are desperately needed.

However, to play devil's advocate, would it be better to mortgage the future for a ring or two now? As far as attendance goes?
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Re: If a tree falls in Cleveland,

Unread postby Kingpin74 » Wed Sep 11, 2013 10:13 am

If we can somehow catch Texas, we're going to be the first team in history that needs to have Dollar Dog Night, Kids Fun Day, Rock 'N Blast, and Puppypalooza for a one game playoff.
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Re: If a tree falls in Cleveland,

Unread postby motherscratcher » Wed Sep 11, 2013 10:16 am

Spin wrote:
7foot3 wrote:
Spin wrote:and the farm system is bare.



I know this is a repeated thing among the fans, but when McAllister, Kluber, and Salazar come out of the minors to save this team's ass when it desperately needed some SP, I have to think that the fans who complain about the farm are fucking clueless.


Who could we afford to trade at the trade deadline this year to bring in another arm, or another bat? The prospects that are there are desperately needed.

However, to play devil's advocate, would it be better to mortgage the future for a ring or two now? As far as attendance goes?


A ring or two? Just that easy, huh. I'm pretty sure if there was a deal out there in July that was going to assure them "a ring or two" they would have pulled the trigger.

It'd be nice if you gave an example of who was out there to be had, and who you thought was worth giving up for them.
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Re: If a tree falls in Cleveland,

Unread postby motherscratcher » Wed Sep 11, 2013 10:18 am

Kingpin74 wrote:If we can somehow catch Texas, we're going to be the first team in history that needs to have Dollar Dog Night, Kids Fun Day, Rock 'N Blast, and Puppypalooza for a one game playoff.


If you have a one game playoff you have to do whatever it takes to get that stadium packed to the gills with 23,000 fat sedentary fans. Ill be there for sure. Or at least strongly consider it.
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Re: If a tree falls in Cleveland,

Unread postby Spin » Wed Sep 11, 2013 10:22 am

googleeph2 wrote:
Toxicadam wrote: The truth is that for more than 40 years now this club has usually drawn nothing in the way of attendence.


Truth. Attendance shown in avatar to left was typical.


Look at the trends though,

Last year, hopelessly out of contention, they were drawing 20,340. This year, a handful of games out of the playoffs most of the second half, and they're drawing 19,536. Monday night's attendance was 9,794. Last year there were no games sub 10,000 in the second half.

So, where are the fans?

"The Indians' average rating so far this season on Fox Sports' Sports Time Ohio is up 34 percent compared to last season's average rating, according to a spokesperson."

I hope they got a sweet deal for broadcasting rights when they sold STO. Because that's where more and more of their revenue comes from.
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Re: If a tree falls in Cleveland,

Unread postby pod2dawg » Wed Sep 11, 2013 10:48 am

motherscratcher wrote:
Spin wrote:
7foot3 wrote:
Spin wrote:and the farm system is bare.



I know this is a repeated thing among the fans, but when McAllister, Kluber, and Salazar come out of the minors to save this team's ass when it desperately needed some SP, I have to think that the fans who complain about the farm are fucking clueless.


Who could we afford to trade at the trade deadline this year to bring in another arm, or another bat? The prospects that are there are desperately needed.

However, to play devil's advocate, would it be better to mortgage the future for a ring or two now? As far as attendance goes?


A ring or two? Just that easy, huh. I'm pretty sure if there was a deal out there in July that was going to assure them "a ring or two" they would have pulled the trigger.



EXCELLENT POINTS from 7' 3" on down.....that is the rub boys, "DO WE MORTGAGE THE FUTURE TO WIN A COUPLE PLAYOFF GAMES?.....coz we ain't winning it all with what we got even with a trade.....and yes attendance is down...multifactoral...it won't be fixed in a day. KEEP BUILDING A TEAM.....they will come.
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Re: If a tree falls in Cleveland,

Unread postby googleeph2 » Wed Sep 11, 2013 12:18 pm

FUDU wrote: In the past 40 years as noted this franchise has historically not drawn fans in droves except for 3 games a year and that 8 year era of "champions" at the end of last century.


http://www.baseball-almanac.com/teams/cleiatte.shtml

Since 1960, they have exceeded the league average twice (1965, 1974 unless I missed another), in addition to 1994 - 2002.

Interesting how league average attendance has doubled since 1976.

Also interesting: the 1975 Frank Robinson hiring as mgr season resulted in a lower attendance year than 1974 (he still could have had a positive impact on the total, of course).

2 strong contender eras: the post-war late 40s and 50s, and the 90s. Attendance responded then, at least. Both were good economy eras of course.

I still think the TV viewers are somewhere close to the tipping point, waiting to believe.
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Re: If a tree falls in Cleveland,

Unread postby Madre Hill, Superstar » Wed Sep 11, 2013 12:56 pm

skatingtripods wrote:They haven't won anything yet.

Contention's not good enough for a city whose football team is out of the playoff picture by the second week of the season and whose basketball team was single-handedly saved by a lucky ping pong ball.


I wouldn't say all contentions are being equal, the Cavs were drawing better than 16k a game last year despite finishing on the wrong side of 30 wins. Going Oh-Fer against anyone they could conceivably see in October on top of repeated kicks to the jimmies would lead to a fanbase shrugging and saying 'Meh', but this thread was good in reminding me there are other factors at play as well.
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Re: If a tree falls in Cleveland,

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Wed Sep 11, 2013 1:21 pm

Dan Gilbert brought a casino to Cleveland! He must be supported via attending his worst in all of sports live sporting entertainment event!
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Re: If a tree falls in Cleveland,

Unread postby Madre Hill, Superstar » Wed Sep 11, 2013 4:47 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:Dan Gilbert brought a casino to Cleveland! He must be supported via attending his worst in all of sports live sporting entertainment event!


16k for a shitty Cavs team versus 19k for a Tribe team in contention and you think its all because the townfolk are fluffing Dan Gilbert? Go rant at Will Leitch over at Sports On Earth, he's the guy you're looking for.
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Re: If a tree falls in Cleveland,

Unread postby skatingtripods » Wed Sep 11, 2013 5:00 pm

Gilbert gives away a lot of tickets for the Lake Erie Monsters to various organizations. I imagine he does the same thing with the Cavs. I don't think the Dolans give many tickets out.

The indoor/outdoor thing has something to do with it. People will buy advance Cavs seats because the game will be played. You can't predict the weather for a Tribe game. Tickets are bought much closer to the game for the Tribe. And that hurts them because it's entirely predicated on how the team is doing.
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Re: If a tree falls in Cleveland,

Unread postby googleeph2 » Wed Sep 11, 2013 5:02 pm

Re: that (still impressive) Cavalier attendance, Gilbert knows the $375mil value the team had when he bought it is on the clock. If the young promising guys left, and they kept losing to the 'haves' like the Indians with CC, Lee, and Victor, etc., there would be nothing else propping up the ticket base.
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Re: If a tree falls in Cleveland,

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Wed Sep 11, 2013 7:49 pm

The Cavs are still hanging on to a strong season ticket base. That'll dwindle over time but the LBJ highs were really high. And then Casino Dan!! is still a local hero who can do no wrong to most of the idiots in Cleveland (that letter was soooo good after LBJ left!!).

There It'll take awhile for the full decline from the LBJ era to hit but it'll happen over time if this Bynum turning into LBJ experiment/hail-mary doesn't work.

Same way it took the Indians awhile to fully decline after being the hot spot.

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Re: If a tree falls in Cleveland,

Unread postby TouchEmAllTime » Wed Sep 11, 2013 11:07 pm

Baltimore lost, Tampa is losing, and our shit team is still 1.5 back. Does anyone want this thing?
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Re: If a tree falls in Cleveland,

Unread postby skatingtripods » Wed Sep 11, 2013 11:16 pm

It's going so bad in Tampa that they used Roberto Hernandez in the 10th.

It didn't work.
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Re: If a tree falls in Cleveland,

Unread postby justmebd » Thu Sep 12, 2013 7:37 am

I don't think I've ever been less excited about a Cleveland team in a playoff hunt.

Since I'm convinced they'll be swept right out of whatever playoff game they end up in, you can see why my enthusiasm is dampened.

You can thank the Dolans and that FO that consistently puts a shit product on the field. :hic:
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Re: If a tree falls in Cleveland,

Unread postby Spin » Thu Sep 12, 2013 9:12 am

motherscratcher wrote:
Spin wrote:
7foot3 wrote:
Spin wrote:and the farm system is bare.



I know this is a repeated thing among the fans, but when McAllister, Kluber, and Salazar come out of the minors to save this team's ass when it desperately needed some SP, I have to think that the fans who complain about the farm are fucking clueless.


Who could we afford to trade at the trade deadline this year to bring in another arm, or another bat? The prospects that are there are desperately needed.

However, to play devil's advocate, would it be better to mortgage the future for a ring or two now? As far as attendance goes?


A ring or two? Just that easy, huh. I'm pretty sure if there was a deal out there in July that was going to assure them "a ring or two" they would have pulled the trigger.

It'd be nice if you gave an example of who was out there to be had, and who you thought was worth giving up for them.


That's the Marlins modus operandi. Mortgage the future and throw down a bunch of jack, win a World Series, then sell it all off. Repeat. It also works when you want a new stadium
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Re: If a tree falls in Cleveland,

Unread postby Madre Hill, Superstar » Thu Sep 12, 2013 10:40 am

Cavs attendance in 2010-11 was 824k
Cavs attendance in 2011-12 was 525k.
Cavs attendance in 2012-13 was 663k.

Its a variety of factors, but mainly the Cavs have an Uncle Drew and the Indians don't.
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Re: If a tree falls in Cleveland,

Unread postby googleeph2 » Thu Sep 12, 2013 10:48 am

TouchEmAllTime wrote:Baltimore lost, Tampa is losing, and our shit team is still 1.5 back. Does anyone want this thing?


That's just it. The Indians are battling 4 teams or whatever, but they aren't winning at a Braves/Dodgers/Tigers clip. They are winning at a Rays/Orioles clip. It's just time to get hot, against teams like the Twins and Astros. I wouldn't bet against them, but man do they need to start hitting more.
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Re: If a tree falls in Cleveland,

Unread postby pup » Thu Sep 12, 2013 1:09 pm

Madre Hill, Superstar wrote:Cavs attendance in 2010-11 was 824k
Cavs attendance in 2011-12 was 525k.
Cavs attendance in 2012-13 was 663k.

Its a variety of factors, but mainly the Cavs have an Uncle Drew and the Indians don't.


Those tickets sold or asses in seats?
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