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Article about near poverty is US & white electorate

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Article about near poverty is US & white electorate

Unread postby jb » Mon Jul 29, 2013 9:42 am

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/28/poverty-unemployment-rates_n_3666594.html?utm_hp_ref=mostpopular


WASHINGTON — Four out of 5 U.S. adults struggle with joblessness, near-poverty or reliance on welfare for at least parts of their lives, a sign of deteriorating economic security and an elusive American dream.

Survey data exclusive to The Associated Press points to an increasingly globalized U.S. economy, the widening gap between rich and poor, and the loss of good-paying manufacturing jobs as reasons for the trend.

The findings come as President Barack Obama tries to renew his administration's emphasis on the economy, saying in recent speeches that his highest priority is to "rebuild ladders of opportunity" and reverse income inequality.

As nonwhites approach a numerical majority in the U.S., one question is how public programs to lift the disadvantaged should be best focused – on the affirmative action that historically has tried to eliminate the racial barriers seen as the major impediment to economic equality, or simply on improving socioeconomic status for all, regardless of race.

Hardship is particularly growing among whites, based on several measures. Pessimism among that racial group about their families' economic futures has climbed to the highest point since at least 1987. In the most recent AP-GfK poll, 63 percent of whites called the economy "poor."

"I think it's going to get worse," said Irene Salyers, 52, of Buchanan County, Va., a declining coal region in Appalachia. Married and divorced three times, Salyers now helps run a fruit and vegetable stand with her boyfriend but it doesn't generate much income. They live mostly off government disability checks.

"If you do try to go apply for a job, they're not hiring people, and they're not paying that much to even go to work," she said. Children, she said, have "nothing better to do than to get on drugs."

While racial and ethnic minorities are more likely to live in poverty, race disparities in the poverty rate have narrowed substantially since the 1970s, census data show. Economic insecurity among whites also is more pervasive than is shown in the government's poverty data, engulfing more than 76 percent of white adults by the time they turn 60, according to a new economic gauge being published next year by the Oxford University Press.

The gauge defines "economic insecurity" as experiencing unemployment at some point in their working lives, or a year or more of reliance on government aid such as food stamps or income below 150 percent of the poverty line. Measured across all races, the risk of economic insecurity rises to 79 percent.


Marriage rates are in decline across all races, and the number of white mother-headed households living in poverty has risen to the level of black ones.

"It's time that America comes to understand that many of the nation's biggest disparities, from education and life expectancy to poverty, are increasingly due to economic class position," said William Julius Wilson, a Harvard professor who specializes in race and poverty. He noted that despite continuing economic difficulties, minorities have more optimism about the future after Obama's election, while struggling whites do not.

"There is the real possibility that white alienation will increase if steps are not taken to highlight and address inequality on a broad front," Wilson said.

___

Nationwide, the count of America's poor remains stuck at a record number: 46.2 million, or 15 percent of the population, due in part to lingering high unemployment following the recession. While poverty rates for blacks and Hispanics are nearly three times higher, by absolute numbers the predominant face of the poor is white.

More than 19 million whites fall below the poverty line of $23,021 for a family of four, accounting for more than 41 percent of the nation's destitute, nearly double the number of poor blacks.

Sometimes termed "the invisible poor" by demographers, lower-income whites generally are dispersed in suburbs as well as small rural towns, where more than 60 percent of the poor are white. Concentrated in Appalachia in the East, they are numerous in the industrial Midwest and spread across America's heartland, from Missouri, Arkansas and Oklahoma up through the Great Plains.

Buchanan County, in southwest Virginia, is among the nation's most destitute based on median income, with poverty hovering at 24 percent. The county is mostly white, as are 99 percent of its poor.

More than 90 percent of Buchanan County's inhabitants are working-class whites who lack a college degree. Higher education long has been seen there as nonessential to land a job because well-paying mining and related jobs were once in plentiful supply. These days many residents get by on odd jobs and government checks.

Salyers' daughter, Renee Adams, 28, who grew up in the region, has two children. A jobless single mother, she relies on her live-in boyfriend's disability checks to get by. Salyers says it was tough raising her own children as it is for her daughter now, and doesn't even try to speculate what awaits her grandchildren, ages 4 and 5.

Smoking a cigarette in front of the produce stand, Adams later expresses a wish that employers will look past her conviction a few years ago for distributing prescription painkillers, so she can get a job and have money to "buy the kids everything they need."

"It's pretty hard," she said. "Once the bills are paid, we might have $10 to our name."

___

Census figures provide an official measure of poverty, but they're only a temporary snapshot that doesn't capture the makeup of those who cycle in and out of poverty at different points in their lives. They may be suburbanites, for example, or the working poor or the laid off.

In 2011 that snapshot showed 12.6 percent of adults in their prime working-age years of 25-60 lived in poverty. But measured in terms of a person's lifetime risk, a much higher number – 4 in 10 adults – falls into poverty for at least a year of their lives.

The risks of poverty also have been increasing in recent decades, particularly among people ages 35-55, coinciding with widening income inequality. For instance, people ages 35-45 had a 17 percent risk of encountering poverty during the 1969-1989 time period; that risk increased to 23 percent during the 1989-2009 period. For those ages 45-55, the risk of poverty jumped from 11.8 percent to 17.7 percent.

Higher recent rates of unemployment mean the lifetime risk of experiencing economic insecurity now runs even higher: 79 percent, or 4 in 5 adults, by the time they turn 60.

By race, nonwhites still have a higher risk of being economically insecure, at 90 percent. But compared with the official poverty rate, some of the biggest jumps under the newer measure are among whites, with more than 76 percent enduring periods of joblessness, life on welfare or near-poverty.

By 2030, based on the current trend of widening income inequality, close to 85 percent of all working-age adults in the U.S. will experience bouts of economic insecurity.

"Poverty is no longer an issue of `them', it's an issue of `us'," says Mark Rank, a professor at Washington University in St. Louis who calculated the numbers. "Only when poverty is thought of as a mainstream event, rather than a fringe experience that just affects blacks and Hispanics, can we really begin to build broader support for programs that lift people in need."

The numbers come from Rank's analysis being published by the Oxford University Press. They are supplemented with interviews and figures provided to the AP by Tom Hirschl, a professor at Cornell University; John Iceland, a sociology professor at Penn State University; the University of New Hampshire's Carsey Institute; the Census Bureau; and the Population Reference Bureau.

Among the findings:

_For the first time since 1975, the number of white single-mother households living in poverty with children surpassed or equaled black ones in the past decade, spurred by job losses and faster rates of out-of-wedlock births among whites. White single-mother families in poverty stood at nearly 1.5 million in 2011, comparable to the number for blacks. Hispanic single-mother families in poverty trailed at 1.2 million.

_Since 2000, the poverty rate among working-class whites has grown faster than among working-class nonwhites, rising 3 percentage points to 11 percent as the recession took a bigger toll among lower-wage workers. Still, poverty among working-class nonwhites remains higher, at 23 percent.

_The share of children living in high-poverty neighborhoods – those with poverty rates of 30 percent or more – has increased to 1 in 10, putting them at higher risk of teenage pregnancy or dropping out of school. Non-Hispanic whites accounted for 17 percent of the child population in such neighborhoods, compared with 13 percent in 2000, even though the overall proportion of white children in the U.S. has been declining.

The share of black children in high-poverty neighborhoods dropped from 43 percent to 37 percent, while the share of Latino children went from 38 percent to 39 percent.

_Race disparities in health and education have narrowed generally since the 1960s. While residential segregation remains high, a typical black person now lives in a nonmajority black neighborhood for the first time. Previous studies have shown that wealth is a greater predictor of standardized test scores than race; the test-score gap between rich and low-income students is now nearly double the gap between blacks and whites.

___

Going back to the 1980s, never have whites been so pessimistic about their futures, according to the General Social Survey, a biannual survey conducted by NORC at the University of Chicago. Just 45 percent say their family will have a good chance of improving their economic position based on the way things are in America.

The divide is especially evident among those whites who self-identify as working class. Forty-nine percent say they think their children will do better than them, compared with 67 percent of nonwhites who consider themselves working class, even though the economic plight of minorities tends to be worse.

Although they are a shrinking group, working-class whites – defined as those lacking a college degree – remain the biggest demographic bloc of the working-age population. In 2012, Election Day exit polls conducted for the AP and the television networks showed working-class whites made up 36 percent of the electorate, even with a notable drop in white voter turnout.

Last November, Obama won the votes of just 36 percent of those noncollege whites, the worst performance of any Democratic nominee among that group since Republican Ronald Reagan's 1984 landslide victory over Walter Mondale.

Some Democratic analysts have urged renewed efforts to bring working-class whites into the political fold, calling them a potential "decisive swing voter group" if minority and youth turnout level off in future elections. "In 2016 GOP messaging will be far more focused on expressing concern for `the middle class' and `average Americans,'" Andrew Levison and Ruy Teixeira wrote recently in The New Republic.

"They don't trust big government, but it doesn't mean they want no government," says Republican pollster Ed Goeas, who agrees that working-class whites will remain an important electoral group. His research found that many of them would support anti-poverty programs if focused broadly on job training and infrastructure investment. This past week, Obama pledged anew to help manufacturers bring jobs back to America and to create jobs in the energy sectors of wind, solar and natural gas.

"They feel that politicians are giving attention to other people and not them," Goeas said.

___

AP Director of Polling Jennifer Agiesta, News Survey Specialist Dennis Junius and AP writer Debra McCown in Buchanan County, Va., contributed to this report.

___

Online:

Census Bureau: http://www.census.gov
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Re: Article about near poverty is US & white electorate

Unread postby danwismar » Tue Jul 30, 2013 1:20 pm

"for at least parts of their lives"

This makes me part of that "4 out of 5" because I was unemployed once for a month 25 years ago. As Taranto points out in his response to the study....this tells us very little about the state of things today.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... 63932.html
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Re: Article about near poverty is US & white electorate

Unread postby General » Tue Jul 30, 2013 1:27 pm

And yet they reproduce at an alarming rate.
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Re: Article about near poverty is US & white electorate

Unread postby Erie Warrior » Thu Aug 01, 2013 5:42 am

Be on time

Follow directions

Work hard

Like this shit is rocket surgery or something.
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Re: Article about near poverty is US & white electorate

Unread postby General » Thu Aug 01, 2013 7:12 am

If I wanted to borrow 250K the banks would be up my ass with a 1000 watt flashlight yet these people that are moaning and groaning about jobs and money have money for multiple offspring, large dogs, smart phones, etc. I use the 250K figure because isn't that roughly what it takes to raise a zygote to a successful completion? Instead of adding them to the welfare rolls. WTF????
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Re: Article about near poverty is US & white electorate

Unread postby FUDU » Fri Aug 02, 2013 12:42 pm

Erie Warrior wrote:Be on time

Follow directions

Work hard

Like this shit is rocket surgery or something.

When you have to do that on your own it IS rocket science today.
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Re: Article about near poverty is US & white electorate

Unread postby FUDU » Fri Aug 02, 2013 12:43 pm

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Re: Article about near poverty is US & white electorate

Unread postby FUDU » Fri Aug 02, 2013 12:50 pm

JB, IMO this doesn't apply to adults as much as it does young people (say 25 and under).

Minimum wages impact a person's willingness to work when labor is deducted from the unemployment benefit. The more relief (unemployment benefit) that is offered, the less incentive there is to work. Essentially, one works for the difference, between earned real wages and relief. So if the relief is $100 per week, and the offered wage is $120 per week, then in real terms, the individual is being asked to work for only $20 a week.

Because the increase in net income is minuscule when working full-time at a minimum wage with 40hr/week stipulations limiting income, compared with working zero hours and receiving a generous unemployment check, it is rational to avoid work.
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Re: Article about near poverty is US & white electorate

Unread postby FUDU » Fri Aug 02, 2013 1:27 pm

We're gonna talk past each other JB, due to two threads running parallel, so I'll stay here on this.

Honest question, would an extra 8K in your pocket make a difference in your life, short and long term. I'm gonna gander that a yes. Well IIRC that is what the average Fed. tax payer pays for entitlement programs per year. If you had that 8k back, would you be charitable with it in some way, I'll gander yes again.

Think about that exponentially now. The effects locally could be staggering.
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Re: Article about near poverty is US & white electorate

Unread postby jb » Fri Aug 02, 2013 1:46 pm

FUDU wrote:We're gonna talk past each other JB, due to two threads running parallel, so I'll stay here on this.

Honest question, would an extra 8K in your pocket make a difference in your life, short and long term. I'm gonna gander that a yes. Well IIRC that is what the average Fed. tax payer pays for entitlement programs per year. If you had that 8k back, would you be charitable with it in some way, I'll gander yes again.

Think about that exponentially now. The effects locally could be staggering.



FUDU, yes, I believe that were I making $ 15K / year that $ 8 K would make all the dif in the world.
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Re: Article about near poverty is US & white electorate

Unread postby motherscratcher » Fri Aug 02, 2013 2:15 pm

FUDU wrote:We're gonna talk past each other JB, due to two threads running parallel, so I'll stay here on this.

Honest question, would an extra 8K in your pocket make a difference in your life, short and long term. I'm gonna gander that a yes. Well IIRC that is what the average Fed. tax payer pays for entitlement programs per year. If you had that 8k back, would you be charitable with it in some way, I'll gander yes again.

Think about that exponentially now. The effects locally could be staggering.


Are you suggesting that if we ended all entitlements, and everyone made 8k more a year, then everyone would turn around and give that 8k back to those in need?

I didn't know you were such an optimist DU.
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Re: Article about near poverty is US & white electorate

Unread postby FUDU » Fri Aug 02, 2013 2:32 pm

jb wrote:
FUDU wrote:We're gonna talk past each other JB, due to two threads running parallel, so I'll stay here on this.

Honest question, would an extra 8K in your pocket make a difference in your life, short and long term. I'm gonna gander that a yes. Well IIRC that is what the average Fed. tax payer pays for entitlement programs per year. If you had that 8k back, would you be charitable with it in some way, I'll gander yes again.

Think about that exponentially now. The effects locally could be staggering.



FUDU, yes, I believe that were I making $ 15K / year that $ 8 K would make all the dif in the world.

But that's not what I asked you. You can answer without revealing PI. 8K would make you better off if you are half as responsible as I assume most Iggy grads are, even if you pull in 6 figures. You'd probably use some for yourself and give some back. Point being it would go a long away toward your well being over time, as it would everyone else. If everyone takes care of themselves, we're left with very few to have to help, and that would be very very possible.

Mo, no I am not that optimistic at all. Just pointing out how much the avg. John Q Taxpayer dishes out, for a problem that never ever goes away. If median income in this country is even as high as 50K (and I don't think it is) that's 16% of your gross income going to take care of others. The effects are always more significant locally, imagine a significant % drop in those who need extra help.

So yeah for the short term I'd be very open to progressive tax reform, in general I'm not the biggest fan though.
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Re: Article about near poverty is US & white electorate

Unread postby jb » Fri Aug 02, 2013 2:55 pm

FUDU wrote:
jb wrote:
FUDU wrote:We're gonna talk past each other JB, due to two threads running parallel, so I'll stay here on this.

Honest question, would an extra 8K in your pocket make a difference in your life, short and long term. I'm gonna gander that a yes. Well IIRC that is what the average Fed. tax payer pays for entitlement programs per year. If you had that 8k back, would you be charitable with it in some way, I'll gander yes again.

Think about that exponentially now. The effects locally could be staggering.



FUDU, yes, I believe that were I making $ 15K / year that $ 8 K would make all the dif in the world.


But that's not what I asked you. You can answer without revealing PI. 8K would make you better off if you are half as responsible as I assume most Iggy grads are, even if you pull in 6 figures. You'd probably use some for yourself and give some back. Point being it would go a long away toward your well being over time, as it would everyone else. If everyone takes care of themselves, we're left with very few to have to help, and that would be very very possible.

Mo, no I am not that optimistic at all. Just pointing out how much the avg. John Q Taxpayer dishes out, for a problem that never ever goes away. If median income in this country is even as high as 50K (and I don't think it is) that's 16% of your gross income going to take care of others. The effects are always more significant locally, imagine a significant % drop in those who need extra help.

So yeah for the short term I'd be very open to progressive tax reform, in general I'm not the biggest fan though.



I'm not talking about me. I'm fine. My folks tee'd me up in life and despite some attempts at screwing that up I'm on my feet nicely. But yeah, sure I'll take your $ 8 k.

But if raising min wage to a living wage while you cut the disincentive to work welfare programs it's not from me. This isn't a sum zero game for the vast majority of people. The fact someone is getting something doesn't automatically mean you lose something.

To wit, read the McDonald's article. If everyone from first day floor sweep to CEO had their salaries doubled it'd raise the cost of a Big Mac like 64 cents. I can make the decision to eat more or less Big macs.

I suspect a price range of that sort would be completely, totally and thoroughly inelastic.

Do you believe in the Oxford comma?
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Re: Article about near poverty is US & white electorate

Unread postby FUDU » Fri Aug 02, 2013 4:51 pm

jb wrote:
FUDU wrote:
jb wrote:
FUDU wrote:We're gonna talk past each other JB, due to two threads running parallel, so I'll stay here on this.

Honest question, would an extra 8K in your pocket make a difference in your life, short and long term. I'm gonna gander that a yes. Well IIRC that is what the average Fed. tax payer pays for entitlement programs per year. If you had that 8k back, would you be charitable with it in some way, I'll gander yes again.

Think about that exponentially now. The effects locally could be staggering.



FUDU, yes, I believe that were I making $ 15K / year that $ 8 K would make all the dif in the world.


But that's not what I asked you. You can answer without revealing PI. 8K would make you better off if you are half as responsible as I assume most Iggy grads are, even if you pull in 6 figures. You'd probably use some for yourself and give some back. Point being it would go a long away toward your well being over time, as it would everyone else. If everyone takes care of themselves, we're left with very few to have to help, and that would be very very possible.

Mo, no I am not that optimistic at all. Just pointing out how much the avg. John Q Taxpayer dishes out, for a problem that never ever goes away. If median income in this country is even as high as 50K (and I don't think it is) that's 16% of your gross income going to take care of others. The effects are always more significant locally, imagine a significant % drop in those who need extra help.

So yeah for the short term I'd be very open to progressive tax reform, in general I'm not the biggest fan though.



I'm not talking about me. I'm fine. My folks tee'd me up in life and despite some attempts at screwing that up I'm on my feet nicely. But yeah, sure I'll take your $ 8 k.

But if raising min wage to a living wage while you cut the disincentive to work welfare programs it's not from me. This isn't a sum zero game for the vast majority of people. The fact someone is getting something doesn't automatically mean you lose something.

To wit, read the McDonald's article. If everyone from first day floor sweep to CEO had their salaries doubled it'd raise the cost of a Big Mac like 64 cents. I can make the decision to eat more or less Big macs.

I suspect a price range of that sort would be completely, totally and thoroughly inelastic.

Do you believe in the Oxford comma?

I sense you still miss my point to some degree. It simply nothing more than if you take care of yourself you in fact do a great service to society. So that 8K can do wonders. Think about it this way, you recklessly spend the entire 8K. It goes back into the economy in some way, and impacts others lives. How about you save the entire 8K, it impacts your life in a really good way, and it keeps you off of everyone else's back.

Now, think about what you just said, not a zero sum game for most people. While I'd disagree to what degree it is or isn't it still impacts those carrying the burden. Both in real dollars AND in the long term work ethic and social contract we're a part of. Why are you and I carrying someone else's burden, when that someone else is living relatively comfortable in the context of being poor or not poor? Food, clothing and shelter is not too much to ask from our fellow citizens. But read the link I posted, there's an awful lot of stuff people have who are "struggling". So are we broke are we not broke, does the avg. American have multiple credit cards totaling thousands in debt or not? Why would a living wage change any of this if "this" is living outside our means by spending more than we bring in, on the macro & the micro?

What ever happened to sacrifice, and when the going gets the tough the tough get going? If you lost 30% of your income for a year (or lost your job altogether) what's the first thing you're sacrificing?

So yeah, you and I can just walk right by McD's when Big Macs cost $6, that's indirect taxation. I can adjust to that when and if I need to. But continuing down the road we're on now (whether social engineering warfare or entitlements) is direct taxation and counter productive to the portion of society already doing the heavy lifting.

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Re: Article about near poverty is US & white electorate

Unread postby jb » Fri Aug 02, 2013 5:02 pm

Define "tax". This otta be good.

By your definition, isn't someone else's profit a tax? So it's OK to be "taxed" for a CEO but not the fry cook?
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Re: Article about near poverty is US & white electorate

Unread postby FUDU » Fri Aug 02, 2013 5:23 pm

jb wrote:Define "tax". This otta be good.

By your definition, isn't someone else's profit a tax? So it's OK to be "taxed" for a CEO but not the fry cook?


Tax in a nutshell is simple, it's direct or indirect.

You can avoid the tax by the CEO by not purchasing said companies product or service, no? That's indirect taxation, a shift of burden, that you the tax payer can avoid (but that can open up a whole new semi related discussion).

So in essence the fry cook and the CEO are part of the same tax when you purchase the burger (for discussion's sake). It sounds to me that you are talking about the divvying up of the revenue/profit made from the sale.

Now if the fry cook needs subsidized energy assistance at home, that is direct taxation, there's no way around me you and the fry cook paying that tax.

So if you don't like Jim Bob's product don't buy it, but don't be fooled into thinking the CEO AND the fry cook are both losing their jobs. The fry cook will go before the CEO does, as right or wrong as that is.

Maybe rephrase your question.
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Re: Article about near poverty is US & white electorate

Unread postby jb » Mon Aug 05, 2013 9:27 pm

FUDU wrote:
jb wrote:Define "tax". This otta be good.

By your definition, isn't someone else's profit a tax? So it's OK to be "taxed" for a CEO but not the fry cook?


Tax in a nutshell is simple, it's direct or indirect.

You can avoid the tax by the CEO by not purchasing said companies product or service, no? That's indirect taxation, a shift of burden, that you the tax payer can avoid (but that can open up a whole new semi related discussion).

So in essence the fry cook and the CEO are part of the same tax when you purchase the burger (for discussion's sake). It sounds to me that you are talking about the divvying up of the revenue/profit made from the sale.

Now if the fry cook needs subsidized energy assistance at home, that is direct taxation, there's no way around me you and the fry cook paying that tax.

So if you don't like Jim Bob's product don't buy it, but don't be fooled into thinking the CEO AND the fry cook are both losing their jobs. The fry cook will go before the CEO does, as right or wrong as that is.

Maybe rephrase your question.



Bullshit.

There's a government "tax" and there are inefficiencies, including those in the market.

Right now the employment market is an inefficiency. The employment market is not working, it is not allocating resources at anything that approximates an efficiency. There's are thousands if not millions eschewing min wage work becasue it is a waste of time.

A minimum wage is not a gov't program. It is a market regulatory factor.
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Re: Article about near poverty is US & white electorate

Unread postby FUDU » Tue Aug 06, 2013 4:00 pm

jb wrote:
FUDU wrote:
jb wrote:Define "tax". This otta be good.

By your definition, isn't someone else's profit a tax? So it's OK to be "taxed" for a CEO but not the fry cook?


Tax in a nutshell is simple, it's direct or indirect.

You can avoid the tax by the CEO by not purchasing said companies product or service, no? That's indirect taxation, a shift of burden, that you the tax payer can avoid (but that can open up a whole new semi related discussion).

So in essence the fry cook and the CEO are part of the same tax when you purchase the burger (for discussion's sake). It sounds to me that you are talking about the divvying up of the revenue/profit made from the sale.

Now if the fry cook needs subsidized energy assistance at home, that is direct taxation, there's no way around me you and the fry cook paying that tax.

So if you don't like Jim Bob's product don't buy it, but don't be fooled into thinking the CEO AND the fry cook are both losing their jobs. The fry cook will go before the CEO does, as right or wrong as that is.

Maybe rephrase your question.



Bullshit.

There's a government "tax" and there are inefficiencies, including those in the market.

Right now the employment market is an inefficiency. The employment market is not working, it is not allocating resources at anything that approximates an efficiency. There's are thousands if not millions eschewing min wage work becasue it is a waste of time.

A minimum wage is not a gov't program. It is a market regulatory factor.


Now you're getting quite a bit off on a tangent, and hitting unrelated waters. Those inefficiencies are part of a free market, that is part of life in a free market. I'm not suggesting ignore them as tough shit and not come up with solutions. Frankly it's naive and silly to think people will always do right by others if left completely alone in this context.

However there is a big difference between a tax, what you're mention now, and what you brought up above and CEO and the burger fryer. The burger fryer needs the CEO & shop owner way more than they need him, otherwise burger fryer would open up his own shop.

But RE: MW, it most certainly is a gov't program. That is just one reason why it fails so many people, most gov't programs do. Plus I'm still not sure you're truly aware of the demographics of MW earners. So those that eschew such work, my point to you is, OK fine that is their choice, I can at least see where their logic comes from. However, the problem becomes JUST b/c the eschewer sees it as such doesn't give them the right to drop that burden on the rest of society, b/c that is often the end result. At the EOD while that does take from others and impede others progress, it still hurts the eschewer, even more. Awesome choice the made.
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Re: Article about near poverty is US & white electorate

Unread postby FUDU » Wed Aug 21, 2013 4:03 pm

I think this is a good example of what we would agree on JB. Wages have not kept up and welfare has kept up on too grand a scale. There's little balance here.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/08/21/study-in-most-states-welfare-pays-more-than-minimum-wage-job/
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Re: Article about near poverty is US & white electorate

Unread postby motherscratcher » Wed Aug 21, 2013 4:25 pm

So, why is the solution to that to remove welfare benefits instead of increasing minimum wage to a living wage?
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Re: Article about near poverty is US & white electorate

Unread postby FUDU » Wed Aug 21, 2013 5:06 pm

motherscratcher wrote:So, why is the solution to that to remove welfare benefits instead of increasing minimum wage to a living wage?


That reasoning has as much if not more to do with getting people off of this dependency mentality.

No doubt that wages in general have stagnated too long in comparison to late 20th & early 21 century revenues and profits. But a living wage by modern definition is almost retarded. A sensible wage the is earned and can support basic needs is fine, and if one wants to call that a living wage then so be it....whacked out liberals and OWS types kind of jacked up the whole concept of a living wage IMO.

So, let's get down to the basics needs, that would be supported by such a wage...
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Re: Article about near poverty is US & white electorate

Unread postby leadpipe » Wed Aug 21, 2013 7:32 pm

motherscratcher wrote:So, why is the solution to that to remove welfare benefits instead of increasing minimum wage to a living wage?


Welfare ain't getting people off of welfare, and raising the minimum wage historically has never helped spark anything economically or otherwise.

What American doesn't want higher wages for American workers? Nations do not create high wage jobs from a government decree. Higher wages come from productivity, and worker productivity is sparked with business investing capital. So if Obama wants to get people jobs worth a shit, he shouldn't have raised the taxes in capital investment.

And it's hard to argue the welfare issue without sounding callous, but in layman's terms, it's out of fucking control. For the most part, to the welfare state, the government has become nothing more than an enabler. And enablers aren't helping any discipline of this life get any better. Ask a drug abuser. To be clear, the "less fortunate" and the "welfare state" are two very seperate things in this country. One of the biggest issues is time - the government has enabled for so long....you've got 3-4 generations deep that know nothing else. Instead of the stigmatism of being on welfare, it's "what can we get." - And again if you're three or four generations deep in the cycle, how the hell are you supposed to know any better?

Ehhh, this is all a mess. Financially we're F'd. The welfare state is far more massive than it should be - and it's too late to do anything about it.

All I can say is, what you think you have lined up for retirement - get more. Way more. Cause the 30 year old sittin there thinkin' he's gonna get from his pension what the guy that left the office yesterday is getting is sadly mistaken. Your relative healthcare costs in 30 years?...shit. Who do you think they're comin to to get the trillions lacking in pension funds. Who's gonna pay for the impending student loan bailout? (That's comin' next) The auto bailout? You think that stock's gonna triple like it needs to....who's gonna pay the difference. Might want to consider the cost of the next war....and 100 other things.

Everyone wants to "keep up with the Jones" with the latest I-Phone's, TV's overbuying their houses etc. Well the fucking Jones' are gonna be workin' till they are dead at the rate things are goin.

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Re: Article about near poverty is US & white electorate

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Thu Aug 22, 2013 6:10 am

lul
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Re: Article about near poverty is US & white electorate

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Thu Aug 22, 2013 10:24 am

If minimum wage kept up with inflation, it would be almost $20/hr.

No one can live on $7.50/hr, much less support a family (or even a dog). Anything less than $10/hr is absurd and insane.
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Re: Article about near poverty is US & white electorate

Unread postby jerryroche » Thu Aug 22, 2013 11:27 am

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:If minimum wage kept up with inflation, it would be almost $20/hr. No one can live on $7.50/hr, much less support a family (or even a dog). Anything less than $10/hr is absurd and insane.

$10 per hour is about $20,000 per year. I don't have a problem with that, but welfare would then have to be adjusted downward. You can't have people on welfare making more than $20,000 a year off government largess, because that completely destroys the incentive to find a job. There must be a balance between minimum wage and welfare "income."
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Re: Article about near poverty is US & white electorate

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Thu Aug 22, 2013 1:14 pm

No problem with it being adjusted if minimum wage is raised.
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Re: Article about near poverty is US & white electorate

Unread postby jb » Thu Aug 22, 2013 1:44 pm

motherscratcher wrote:So, why is the solution to that to remove welfare benefits instead of increasing minimum wage to a living wage?



The domain of the url.

The point remains that employment is a market. The market is broken. better to be ion unemployment from a living wage job to get a new min wage job. One way to "fix" the market is to take away unemployment insurance and let the standard of living fall like a rock to min wage based which no one in their right mind could suggest is much better than poverty. Another would be to have government play the role of regulator and raise min wage for those over 18 and raise it to a living wage.

Your opinions on the best course of action will, of course and inevitably, fall along ideolical lines. I know the answers just looking at the posters.
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Re: Article about near poverty is US & white electorate

Unread postby FUDU » Thu Aug 22, 2013 4:04 pm

jerryroche wrote:
Cerebral_DownTime wrote:If minimum wage kept up with inflation, it would be almost $20/hr. No one can live on $7.50/hr, much less support a family (or even a dog). Anything less than $10/hr is absurd and insane.

$10 per hour is about $20,000 per year. I don't have a problem with that, but welfare would then have to be adjusted downward. You can't have people on welfare making more than $20,000 a year off government largess, because that completely destroys the incentive to find a job. There must be a balance between minimum wage and welfare "income."


Right, especially considering MW and welfare are both by design intended for basic living, for being able to survive and have the necessities in life. Neither were designed for a life style remotely resembling a middle class life, or attempting to keep up with the douchebag Jones'.

For whatever reason too many people ignore the fact the true demographics of MW earners.
Last edited by FUDU on Thu Aug 22, 2013 4:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Article about near poverty is US & white electorate

Unread postby FUDU » Thu Aug 22, 2013 4:09 pm

jb wrote:
motherscratcher wrote:So, why is the solution to that to remove welfare benefits instead of increasing minimum wage to a living wage?



The domain of the url.

The point remains that employment is a market. The market is broken. better to be ion unemployment from a living wage job to get a new min wage job. One way to "fix" the market is to take away unemployment insurance and let the standard of living fall like a rock to min wage based which no one in their right mind could suggest is much better than poverty. Another would be to have government play the role of regulator and raise min wage for those over 18 and raise it to a living wage.

Your opinions on the best course of action will, of course and inevitably, fall along ideolical lines. I know the answers just looking at the posters.


Spoken like a true "my ideology is better than yours" ist.

So raise MW, raise welfare, raise em all to high heaven, what exactly is that going to accomplish? Without government interference and certain controls most everything will cost too much to change most people's positions.

...and why no interest in dealing with the real necessities in life? Do you farm well, my guess is no.
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Re: Article about near poverty is US & white electorate

Unread postby mattvan1 » Thu Aug 22, 2013 4:33 pm

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Re: Article about near poverty is US & white electorate

Unread postby FUDU » Thu Aug 22, 2013 5:06 pm



I think I've read that before matt, good link, thanks.

#6 is interesting and important for a few reasons, one I'm not against a MW, but at some point if the business owner cannot afford to increase wages for his employees he is faced with a choice. That choice, which is quite often forgotten or ignored by too many people, is inherently tied to the concept of a business owner being in business for THEMSELVES.

#2 - Low wage jobs keeps many families from rising above the poverty line - reminds me of Frank Caliendo doing John Madden "When Troy Aikeman puts his contacts in he can see better"....

::doh::
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Re: Article about near poverty is US & white electorate

Unread postby jb » Mon Aug 26, 2013 6:43 pm

FUDU wrote:
...and why no interest in dealing with the real necessities in life? Do you farm well, my guess is no.



I'm a fuckin' great farmer. I can grow anything you can think up; leaks, rutabeggas, roses, weed; don't matter. Plant it and it grows around me. My thumb is greener than as if you had yours up Yoda's ass and wiped it with mint leaves.

I know far more about farming that you do, or CDT knows about pizza.
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Re: Article about near poverty is US & white electorate

Unread postby FUDU » Mon Aug 26, 2013 7:04 pm

Well :thumb up: to you then, when the day come you NEED to grow your own food you'll survive, 90% of everyone else will envy you.

...and I've forgotten more about pizza than you will ever know about farming or football.

:cheers:
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Re: Article about near poverty is US & white electorate

Unread postby jb » Mon Aug 26, 2013 7:16 pm

FUDU wrote:...and I've forgotten more about pizza than you will ever know about farming or football.



Look at West Sidah trying to run it about pizza.

Go order some Geppetto's on Warren Road, dork. probably have Godfather's on speed dial.

Only thing more pathetic is if you lived in Cow-lumbus.
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Re: Article about near poverty is US & white electorate

Unread postby FUDU » Mon Aug 26, 2013 8:17 pm

Antonio's, but all Antonio's isn't =, they have different ovens. That's your free pizza tip of the year.
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Re: Article about near poverty is US & white electorate

Unread postby HoodooMan » Mon Aug 26, 2013 9:17 pm

Fun Pizza Fact of the Day: Pizzeria chains normally share one oven.
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Re: Article about near poverty is US & white electorate

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Tue Aug 27, 2013 6:12 pm

"Cow-lumbus" That's rich, coming from a disgusting fatbody that probably sweats gravy and malt liquor. Jesus Christ, can you even see your tubby Hobbit feet? Your spelling is bad because of those chubby little pudpullers you call fingers.

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Re: Article about near poverty is US & white electorate

Unread postby jb » Wed Aug 28, 2013 5:41 pm

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:"Cow-lumbus" That's rich, coming from a disgusting fatbody that probably sweats gravy and malt liquor. Jesus Christ, can you even see your tubby Hobbit feet? Your spelling is bad because of those chubby little pudpullers you call fingers.

Zing.



Cow-lumbus....

Where "Italian Village" means no Italians and all gay cats living in urban renewal lofts.

They know suahi and show tunes but they don't know pizza.
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Re: Article about near poverty is US & white electorate

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Wed Aug 28, 2013 6:09 pm

Obviously we have no real Wops down here, cause the Micks and Krauts got here first. We can't even hang our hat on having a whole street for the Wops to celebrate their pizza culture like you guys can. The Krauts got a "village", the Micks got a whole city, but the Wops got shut out.

Pizza.
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Re: Article about near poverty is US & white electorate

Unread postby jb » Wed Aug 28, 2013 10:57 pm

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:Obviously we have no real Wops down here, cause the Micks and Krauts got here first. We can't even hang our hat on having a whole street for the Wops to celebrate their pizza culture like you guys can. The Krauts got a "village", the Micks got a whole city, but the Wops got shut out.

Pizza.



Cracka puhleaze.

Micks? For real ass Micks? In Cowlumbus?

See here Squatch. The Nasty Nati has the Krauts. CTown has the Micks & Dagos. Cowlumbus has one white ethnic group: hillbilly. The rest are all homogenized whites with degrees.

You know it's true.
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Re: Article about near poverty is US & white electorate

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Thu Aug 29, 2013 8:13 am

You're such an ignorant but lovable douche, JB.

You've apparently never seen our large Hispanic population. You can't get real Mexican food up there. We can and it's awesome.

We also have a ton of Somalians, which isn't really that good actually.

You come down sometime, pick an ethnic food (please, not Indian or Sushi), and we'll go find a joint with excellent food. My treat.

We can go to the Indochine Cafe out east for Vietnamese food. Piada or Trattoria Roma for Dago food. Or the tons of Mexican joints with killer grub.
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Re: Article about near poverty is US & white electorate

Unread postby jb » Thu Aug 29, 2013 4:49 pm

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:You're such an ignorant but lovable douche, JB.

You've apparently never seen our large Hispanic population. You can't get real Mexican food up there. We can and it's awesome.

We also have a ton of Somalians, which isn't really that good actually.

You come down sometime, pick an ethnic food (please, not Indian or Sushi), and we'll go find a joint with excellent food. My treat.

We can go to the Indochine Cafe out east for Vietnamese food. Piada or Trattoria Roma for Dago food. Or the tons of Mexican joints with killer grub.



I thought exotic ethnic food in C-bus was the last standing York Steakhouse?

I could be swayed to make the trip for Meskin.
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