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The Question That Needs Asked

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The Question That Needs Asked

Unread postby justmebd » Mon Aug 19, 2013 7:55 am

Taking into account the general incompetence inherent in the current ownership, when will the day come that the Dolans realize the biggest problem in the organization is the front office?

Since the Dolans have assumed command of this ship, we've had numerous roster turnovers, three managers, an untold number of "new minor league scouts" and a team that consistently underperforms and/or starts to completely fall apart after the All Star Break.

The only constant in this equation is the front office duo of Mark Shapiro and Chris Antonetti. Dumb and Dumber, as I've begun calling them.

While we can sit here and argue finances (The Dolans generally are cheap), bad luck (This is Cleveland), injury history (Grady Sizemore's lost career), sabremetrics (Spelling?) and situational managing until we're aqua green in the face, the bottom line is this front office has done a consistently TERRIBLE job of stocking the minor league teams with young talent.

Most of their trades have not gone well, and many of their "big signings" are just a PR exercise that amounts to very little. (I'm looking at you, Mark Reynolds)

I give credit to Francona for getting this team as far as he has, because let's be honest -- under Manny Acta, this team would've never come back from the losing streak in late May.

This team is thin, and that problem begins and ends with Dumb and Dumber.
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Re: The Question That Needs Asked

Unread postby skatingtripods » Mon Aug 19, 2013 9:28 am

justmebd wrote:Most of their trades have not gone well


This is not even close to true.

Corey Kluber -> Jake Westbrook
Zach McAllister -> Austin Kearns
Carlos Santana -> Casey Blake
Asdrubal Cabrera -> Eduardo Perez
Shin-Soo Choo -> Ben Broussard
Justin Masterson -> Victor Martinez
Joe Smith -> Franklin Gutierrez + Luis Valbuena
Chris Perez -> Mark DeRosa
Yan Gomes + Mike Aviles -> Esmil Rogers

You're basing your comment off the Lee, Sabathia, Jimenez, and possibly the Bauer deals. To put those under a microscope because they were big trades is fine, but to blatantly ignore all of the above trades is laughable. Hell, even Brantley for Sabathia isn't the worst deal in the world, considering the Indians got a cost-controlled, slightly above average LF for a guy that they had no shot at keeping anyway. And Jimenez, while we've been around the bush a hundred times with this, is still pitching for a Major League team while Alex White recovers from Tommy John and Drew Pomeranz can't hack it with one of baseball's worst rotations year in and year out.

As has been discussed plenty of times, with the exception of Domonic Brown, who the Phillies absolutely would not give us, and Matt Lucroy, to an extent, none of the Brewers or Phillies prospects panned out that were discussed in those trades. And the Brewers were widely regarded to have one of the best farm systems in baseball at that time.

The guy responsible for the bad drafting was fired. The drafts have seemingly improved since Brad Grant took over.

We've had roster turnovers because of the financial system of baseball, not because Mark Shapiro and Chris Antonetti ordered them. How can the Indians afford to pay Sabathia or Lee nearly 25% of the payroll?

Terry Francona is the reason that the Indians are 12 wins better than they were a year ago on August 19?
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Re: The Question That Needs Asked

Unread postby justmebd » Mon Aug 19, 2013 2:24 pm

We've always disagreed on the value of the trades, especially the big ones. Also, a GM SHOULD be more heavily graded on the value of his "big" trades as they affect the club the most.

And yes, I do believe Francona is the primary reason this team is 12 wins better.

There is a theory that a manager is directly responsible for about 15 games a season, winning or losing.

So far, Francona is on the right track.

The minor leagues have improved, but the bar was set so low, I'm not sure how the system could have gotten any worse. It's like comparing losses in battle. Who cares, you still lost.
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Re: The Question That Needs Asked

Unread postby skatingtripods » Mon Aug 19, 2013 2:50 pm

justmebd wrote:And yes, I do believe Francona is the primary reason this team is 12 wins better.


This is where I gracefully bow out of the conversation.
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Re: The Question That Needs Asked

Unread postby Dnthateonthepronk » Mon Aug 19, 2013 3:53 pm

skatingtripods wrote:
As has been discussed plenty of times, with the exception of Domonic Brown, who the Phillies absolutely would not give us,



Im not agreeing with the Bed's post. I dont. The front office finally started giving resources, and Antoenetti has done a solid job. Definitely nothing to lose his job.

But just pointing out this isnt accurate. Like I posted last summer with an article link, The Indians didnt want Brown as they thought they had enough outfielders.

Other than that everything you say is true.
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Re: The Question That Needs Asked

Unread postby skatingtripods » Mon Aug 19, 2013 4:08 pm

Dnthateonthepronk wrote:But just pointing out this isnt accurate. Like I posted last summer with an article link, The Indians didnt want Brown as they thought they had enough outfielders.


Must have missed that. Can you dig it up again?

Even so, Brown has just now blossomed, over three years after the trade. Who knows if we'd have held on to him that long. Also, who knows if this season is the norm or the outlier.
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Re: The Question That Needs Asked

Unread postby leadpipe » Mon Aug 19, 2013 4:47 pm

justmebd wrote:We've always disagreed on the value of the trades, especially the big ones. Also, a GM SHOULD be more heavily graded on the value of his "big" trades as they affect the club the most.

And yes, I do believe Francona is the primary reason this team is 12 wins better.

There is a theory that a manager is directly responsible for about 15 games a season, winning or losing.

So far, Francona is on the right track.

The minor leagues have improved, but the bar was set so low, I'm not sure how the system could have gotten any worse. It's like comparing losses in battle. Who cares, you still lost.


What theory has a manager worth 15 games?

There ain't a manager 15 games better than a brick.

Manny Acta watched bad start after bad start pretty much wire to wire. THAT'S the difference. And if you're gonna give him credit for miraculously guiding starting pitching, by the same rationale ya gotta ask him why he's F'ing up Cabby and Swisher.
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Re: The Question That Needs Asked

Unread postby skatingtripods » Mon Aug 19, 2013 5:57 pm

The improvement can't possibly be from the position players being 6.3 WAR better than last season or the pitchers being 2.4 WAR better than last season with 38 games still to go. What a preposterous idea!
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Re: The Question That Needs Asked

Unread postby justmebd » Mon Aug 19, 2013 6:06 pm

leadpipe wrote:
justmebd wrote:We've always disagreed on the value of the trades, especially the big ones. Also, a GM SHOULD be more heavily graded on the value of his "big" trades as they affect the club the most.

And yes, I do believe Francona is the primary reason this team is 12 wins better.

There is a theory that a manager is directly responsible for about 15 games a season, winning or losing.

So far, Francona is on the right track.

The minor leagues have improved, but the bar was set so low, I'm not sure how the system could have gotten any worse. It's like comparing losses in battle. Who cares, you still lost.


What theory has a manager worth 15 games?

There ain't a manager 15 games better than a brick.

Manny Acta watched bad start after bad start pretty much wire to wire. THAT'S the difference. And if you're gonna give him credit for miraculously guiding starting pitching, by the same rationale ya gotta ask him why he's F'ing up Cabby and Swisher.

That theory goes way back, but I am unable to source it for you. I do apologize, I do like to back my stuff up.

IIRC, it delved into how the starting lineup was constructed based on the averages, how the starting pitching was managed, bullpen, etc. I've brought it up before, so whenever I do find the original source online, I will post it here.
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Re: The Question That Needs Asked

Unread postby justmebd » Mon Aug 19, 2013 6:13 pm

skatingtripods wrote:The improvement can't possibly be from the position players being 6.3 WAR better than last season or the pitchers being 2.4 WAR better than last season with 38 games still to go. What a preposterous idea!

I knew you were going to disagree with my premise, and that's fine. You've always given this front office more of a pass than I ever have. I respect your stance, I just don't agree with it.

When it comes to my argument, the ONLY numbers to look at are W/L. Everything else is noise.
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Re: The Question That Needs Asked

Unread postby justmebd » Mon Aug 19, 2013 6:17 pm

Dnthateonthepronk wrote:
skatingtripods wrote:
As has been discussed plenty of times, with the exception of Domonic Brown, who the Phillies absolutely would not give us,



Im not agreeing with the Bed's post. I dont. The front office finally started giving resources, and Antoenetti has done a solid job. Definitely nothing to lose his job.

But just pointing out this isnt accurate. Like I posted last summer with an article link, The Indians didnt want Brown as they thought they had enough outfielders.

Other than that everything you say is true.

Yes, the Dolans gave resources this year, and I see the front office squandering those resources. The team is fading again, and the fan base will respond by not coming to games, which will then again reduce resources for future seasons.

Again, at what point do Dumb and Dumber get held accountable?
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Re: The Question That Needs Asked

Unread postby skatingtripods » Mon Aug 19, 2013 6:40 pm

justmebd wrote:I knew you were going to disagree with my premise, and that's fine. You've always given this front office more of a pass than I ever have. I respect your stance, I just don't agree with it.

When it comes to my argument, the ONLY numbers to look at are W/L. Everything else is noise.


I fully understand that it's a results-based argument and the results haven't been there. It's not from a lack of trying.

If the only numbers to look at are wins and losses, then a lot of mid-to-small market teams absolutely suck and all of their front office members should be fired.
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Re: The Question That Needs Asked

Unread postby mattvan1 » Mon Aug 19, 2013 7:12 pm

justmebd wrote: The team is fading again, and the fan base will respond by not coming to games, which will then again reduce resources for future seasons.


The second half schedule breaks in their favor, with the majority of their games against sub-.500 teams. 90 wins is what I recall reading somewhere on the interwebs.
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Re: The Question That Needs Asked

Unread postby motherscratcher » Mon Aug 19, 2013 8:41 pm

skatingtripods wrote:
justmebd wrote:And yes, I do believe Francona is the primary reason this team is 12 wins better.


This is where I gracefully bow out of the conversation.


I'll meet you at the bar.
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Re: The Question That Needs Asked

Unread postby skatingtripods » Mon Aug 19, 2013 9:09 pm

motherscratcher wrote:
skatingtripods wrote:
justmebd wrote:And yes, I do believe Francona is the primary reason this team is 12 wins better.


This is where I gracefully bow out of the conversation.


I'll meet you at the bar.


Yet my dumb ass didn't bow out. I went back for more.

Bar sounds good. You're not going to roofie me, are you?
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Re: The Question That Needs Asked

Unread postby justmebd » Mon Aug 19, 2013 9:50 pm

skatingtripods wrote:
motherscratcher wrote:
skatingtripods wrote:
justmebd wrote:And yes, I do believe Francona is the primary reason this team is 12 wins better.


This is where I gracefully bow out of the conversation.


I'll meet you at the bar.


Yet my dumb ass didn't bow out. I went back for more.

Bar sounds good. You're not going to roofie me, are you?

I'll join you, I promise I won't bring up my absolute hatred of the FO.

PS: I hop MS roofies you, if only for the comedy. :)
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Re: The Question That Needs Asked

Unread postby leadpipe » Mon Aug 19, 2013 9:56 pm

motherscratcher wrote:
skatingtripods wrote:
justmebd wrote:And yes, I do believe Francona is the primary reason this team is 12 wins better.


This is where I gracefully bow out of the conversation.


I'll meet you at the bar.


I can't wait to read the theory.

15 friggin' games? Jesus Christ himself ain't makin' the Astros 15 games better, nor is a the dumbest manager ever makin' the Cardinals 15 games worse.

And yes I brought up examples of extremes cause it'd be even more impossible to move a middle of the packer 15 games.

Remember when Don Mattingly was a dolt, and a leading candidate to be the first manager of 2013 to be fired? Thank God be figured out how to compose a line-up, handle a staff, lead men, get smarter and all that other bullshit in about 10 minutes.

I like Francona. But he has the same pattern/resume of any other manager that ever lived. When he had good payers he won, when he had bad players he lost, and when he had mediocre players he was so-so. From the Casy Stengel's to the Jeff Torborgs, that's how it works.

And we've alread been over how these guys make the same moves anyway. If you can't watch a MLB game and predict managerial moves at about 90% accuracy, then you're not paying much attention.

Mike Scoiscia was a GENIUS with the bullpen...and then he wasn't.

Joe Torre was great in the clubhouse...and then he wasn't.

Rinse. Repeat.
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Re: The Question That Needs Asked

Unread postby andrew6586 » Mon Aug 19, 2013 10:53 pm

How good or bad the trades have been is certainly always going to be debated. However, one area that cannot be ignored and is squarely on the front office is the lack of talent through the draft. Anyone know how many of the players on the roster were drafted by our FO? Three. We need to get better at drafting. Period. Lindor and Naquin look promising but anyone can draft in the first round (except for Mark Shapiro). We need to do better in the later rounds or else dreams of the Tribe being relevant are a pipe dream.
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Re: The Question That Needs Asked

Unread postby Dnthateonthepronk » Tue Aug 20, 2013 12:28 am

skatingtripods wrote:
Dnthateonthepronk wrote:But just pointing out this isnt accurate. Like I posted last summer with an article link, The Indians didnt want Brown as they thought they had enough outfielders.


Must have missed that. Can you dig it up again?




Ill look for it.
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Re: The Question That Needs Asked

Unread postby Dnthateonthepronk » Tue Aug 20, 2013 12:34 am

skatingtripods wrote:
Dnthateonthepronk wrote:But just pointing out this isnt accurate. Like I posted last summer with an article link, The Indians didnt want Brown as they thought they had enough outfielders.


Must have missed that. Can you dig it up again?

Even so, Brown has just now blossomed, over three years after the trade. Who knows if we'd have held on to him that long. Also, who knows if this season is the norm or the outlier.


Oh I know, Phillies were about to give up on him but he seems to be living up to the talent now or he could be having a Karim Garcia type year if you would have put Garcia's numbers from his half season into the Duncanator. But still my point from last summer about that trade was we horribly overvalued our outfield talent and the decision in that trade to go for quantity over quality and make a A ball pitcher the centerpiece was terrible. That to me is really the only true Bone headed move from an organizational stand point. (Drafting not being a whole nother animal)
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Re: The Question That Needs Asked

Unread postby Dnthateonthepronk » Tue Aug 20, 2013 12:39 am

leadpipe wrote:


nor is a the dumbest manager ever makin' the Cardinals 15 games worse.



REALLY?
Image


I MEAN REALLY?

Image

ACTUAL ERIC WEDGE QUOTEShttp://www.waitingfornextyear.com/2011/03/eric-wedge-unintentionally-hilarious-quote-machine/

1) “It’s not the best 25 players, but the right 25 players.”

2) “…you’ve got to make sure that you work to not just see around the corner, but to see all the way around the corner.”

3) “As long as they’re on board with the intangibles — being a good teammate, respecting the game, going about your business the right way and caring about what you’re supposed to care about….”

4) “It’s more about me coming in and setting the tone and bridging that gap and making sure we’re going about our business as an organization and a big-league club the way it should be done.”
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Re: The Question That Needs Asked

Unread postby 1Perry » Tue Aug 20, 2013 5:27 am

12 wins for Francona? LOL, no. A much better choice than Acta was? Easily.

I'm willing to give Antonetti more time for the simple fact that he doesn't say something stupid nearly every time he opens his mouth.
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Re: The Question That Needs Asked

Unread postby motherscratcher » Tue Aug 20, 2013 10:00 am

justmebd wrote:
skatingtripods wrote:
motherscratcher wrote:
skatingtripods wrote:
justmebd wrote:And yes, I do believe Francona is the primary reason this team is 12 wins better.


This is where I gracefully bow out of the conversation.


I'll meet you at the bar.


Yet my dumb ass didn't bow out. I went back for more.

Bar sounds good. You're not going to roofie me, are you?

I'll join you, I promise I won't bring up my absolute hatred of the FO.

PS: I hop MS roofies you, if only for the comedy. :)


Yeah, you can definitely come J, I've got a whole jar full of roofies. And bring you FO hate with you. We'll need something good to argue about. Besides, you're the man with the booze and a box full of over 200 bootlegs that I keep meaning to PM you about.

You hate the FO, and I'm one of the long time Shapiro/FO apologists, and Tripods knows more about it than both of us. Should be a good time.
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Re: The Question That Needs Asked

Unread postby motherscratcher » Tue Aug 20, 2013 10:01 am

Dnthateonthepronk wrote:
skatingtripods wrote:
Dnthateonthepronk wrote:But just pointing out this isnt accurate. Like I posted last summer with an article link, The Indians didnt want Brown as they thought they had enough outfielders.


Must have missed that. Can you dig it up again?

Even so, Brown has just now blossomed, over three years after the trade. Who knows if we'd have held on to him that long. Also, who knows if this season is the norm or the outlier.


Oh I know, Phillies were about to give up on him but he seems to be living up to the talent now or he could be having a Karim Garcia type year if you would have put Garcia's numbers from his half season into the Duncanator. But still my point from last summer about that trade was we horribly overvalued our outfield talent and the decision in that trade to go for quantity over quality and make a A ball pitcher the centerpiece was terrible. That to me is really the only true Bone headed move from an organizational stand point. (Drafting not being a whole nother animal)


Thank you for reminding me of the Duncanator. I'd forgotten about that. :thumb up:
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Re: The Question That Needs Asked

Unread postby scrambler » Tue Aug 20, 2013 10:10 am

Dnthateonthepronk wrote:
leadpipe wrote:


nor is a the dumbest manager ever makin' the Cardinals 15 games worse.



REALLY?
Image


I MEAN REALLY?

Image

ACTUAL ERIC WEDGE QUOTEShttp://www.waitingfornextyear.com/2011/03/eric-wedge-unintentionally-hilarious-quote-machine/

1) “It’s not the best 25 players, but the right 25 players.”

2) “…you’ve got to make sure that you work to not just see around the corner, but to see all the way around the corner.”

3) “As long as they’re on board with the intangibles — being a good teammate, respecting the game, going about your business the right way and caring about what you’re supposed to care about….”

4) “It’s more about me coming in and setting the tone and bridging that gap and making sure we’re going about our business as an organization and a big-league club the way it should be done.”



Man took a team to one stinking game of the World Series!! Which is the point of some on here about the unimportance of managers I think.
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Re: The Question That Needs Asked

Unread postby gotribe31 » Tue Aug 20, 2013 10:18 am

motherscratcher wrote:
justmebd wrote:
skatingtripods wrote:
motherscratcher wrote:
skatingtripods wrote:
justmebd wrote:And yes, I do believe Francona is the primary reason this team is 12 wins better.


This is where I gracefully bow out of the conversation.


I'll meet you at the bar.


Yet my dumb ass didn't bow out. I went back for more.

Bar sounds good. You're not going to roofie me, are you?

I'll join you, I promise I won't bring up my absolute hatred of the FO.

PS: I hop MS roofies you, if only for the comedy. :)


Yeah, you can definitely come J, I've got a whole jar full of roofies. And bring you FO hate with you. We'll need something good to argue about. Besides, you're the man with the booze and a box full of over 200 bootlegs that I keep meaning to PM you about.

You hate the FO, and I'm one of the long time Shapiro/FO apologists, and Tripods knows more about it than both of us. Should be a good time.


I want Peek, e0, CTD and Pup at that party. And I want to watch on CCTV.
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Re: The Question That Needs Asked

Unread postby Dnthateonthepronk » Tue Aug 20, 2013 1:40 pm

I actually kinda....KINDA..not alot...just KINDA...... liked Wedge, but the images and people's hatred just worked too well for it not be made into a joke.
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Re: The Question That Needs Asked

Unread postby WiscTribeFan » Tue Aug 20, 2013 1:57 pm

Dnthateonthepronk wrote:I actually kinda....KINDA..not alot...just KINDA...... liked Wedge, but the images and people's hatred just worked too well for it not be made into a joke.


Wedge, Acta, Francona. They all managed the Tribe pretty much the same way on the field. None of these guys are blazing new trails of managerial doctrine. As it was said before, if your team is winning, you're a genius. If they're losing, you're an idiot.

Let's face it, for all the grief Wedge got, he called the Milton Bradley situation perfectly and got rid of him before he became a real problem. I give him props for pruning that diseased branch early in the process.
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Re: The Question That Needs Asked

Unread postby The Score » Tue Aug 20, 2013 6:14 pm

Dnthateonthepronk wrote:I actually kinda....KINDA..not alot...just KINDA...... liked Wedge, but the images and people's hatred just worked too well for it not be made into a joke.

http://deadspin.com/more-of-the-worst-m ... 1041031147
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Re: The Question That Needs Asked

Unread postby OldDawg » Tue Aug 20, 2013 9:31 pm

gotribe31 wrote:I want Peek, e0, CTD and Pup at that party. And I want to watch on CCTV.

Ya gotta invite Pros, then. He and eO will have a blast.
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Re: The Question That Needs Asked

Unread postby Prosecutor » Wed Aug 21, 2013 8:17 am

OldDawg wrote:
gotribe31 wrote:I want Peek, e0, CTD and Pup at that party. And I want to watch on CCTV.

Ya gotta invite Pros, then. He and eO will have a blast.


Literally. He keeps threatening to shoot me in the face.

I'll come, but only if somebody pats him down at the door.

I'm not kidding.
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Re: The Question That Needs Asked

Unread postby gotribe31 » Wed Aug 21, 2013 8:28 am

Prosecutor wrote:
OldDawg wrote:
gotribe31 wrote:I want Peek, e0, CTD and Pup at that party. And I want to watch on CCTV.

Ya gotta invite Pros, then. He and eO will have a blast.


Literally. He keeps threatening to shoot me in the face.

I'll come, but only if somebody pats him down at the door.

I'm not kidding.


Awww, e0's harmless. He's all bark and no bite. I'm sure you'd be fine. Besides, he doesn't like guns.

It's Dave you gotta worry about. SOB will come in and amputate your finger for you before you know what happened.
You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves
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Let me tell you, if any of you douchebag empty headed stuffed suit nanny politicians tries to fuck with my bacon, I’m going after you like a crazed chimpanzee on bath salts.
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Re: The Question That Needs Asked

Unread postby kman_holla8 » Wed Aug 21, 2013 11:22 pm

I'd pay to see the CCTV once they get to bullshiting about who is the better dentist. See if one of them can pull one of there own teeth out
"Cocaine is a hell of a drug" - Originated from a famous skit in Dave Chappelle's "Chappelle's Show". The skit would portray Rick James, usually high on cocaine, preforming doing crazy and stupid things, such as smacking Charlie Murphy in the face. Rick James would frequently explain away his actions by saying "Cocaine is a hell of a drug".
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Re: The Question That Needs Asked

Unread postby Kingpin74 » Tue Aug 27, 2013 1:44 pm

I want to take Terry Francona out to Lola and hug him for the culture change he's instilled, but even I think that good and bad managers are worth a max of 6 or so wins/losses a year. That can often be the difference, but 15 is insane.

Also, I've been as critical of the front office as anyone. But please look at this roster and think about the fact that they're on pace to win 88.5 games.
"Well then I guess there's only one thing left to do...win the whole, f***in', thing."- Jake Taylor
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