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8-16-13 Tribe @ Oak - "It's it" Edition

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8-16-13 Tribe @ Oak - "It's it" Edition

Unread postby bookelly » Fri Aug 16, 2013 8:53 pm

Masterson vs. Griffin - Great matchup. And thanks to the 2nd WC and the Rays suddenly skidding this series is almost as important as the Detroit debacle. If we can win this series and stay afloat for the next ten days we will be looking at a very fun race.

btw - "It's-it" is an ice cream sandwich you can only get in NoCal for some odd reason as they are the bomb!
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Re: 8-16-13 Tribe @ Oak - "It's it" Edition

Unread postby bookelly » Fri Aug 16, 2013 9:08 pm

This waiting till 7pm for the game to start sucks. I don't know how you guys deal with it.
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Re: 8-16-13 Tribe @ Oak - "It's it" Edition

Unread postby Am I Here Again? » Fri Aug 16, 2013 10:04 pm

I'm a nightowl. ;-) ;) :wink: Besides, nothing on TV and I had my fill of the Red Sux/Skankees game for the night. Just enjoying the sounds of Sux fans hopes and dreams crashing with each loss lately. Schadenfreude!

Hope we win at least 2. Hasn't our cold streak gone on long enough?
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Re: 8-16-13 Tribe @ Oak - "It's it" Edition

Unread postby hebner20 » Fri Aug 16, 2013 10:12 pm

Someone better tell the A's pitcher Griffin that the 1990's called and they want their mullet back.
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Re: 8-16-13 Tribe @ Oak - "It's it" Edition

Unread postby skatingtripods » Fri Aug 16, 2013 10:38 pm

So far, I've heard A's players walk up to the Stone Cold Steve Austin theme song and Regulate by Warren G and Nate Dogg.

I like it.
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Re: 8-16-13 Tribe @ Oak - "It's it" Edition

Unread postby skatingtripods » Fri Aug 16, 2013 11:16 pm

Josh Donaldson, batting .296/.376/.483/.859 entering today's game, puts down a sac bunt in the 4th inning.

Runner left at third.

Billy Beane probably kicked a kitten across the weight room.
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Re: 8-16-13 Tribe @ Oak - "It's it" Edition

Unread postby skatingtripods » Sat Aug 17, 2013 12:00 am

It's just gotten embarrassing for Cabrera at this point.
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Re: 8-16-13 Tribe @ Oak - "It's it" Edition

Unread postby bookelly » Sat Aug 17, 2013 12:01 am

Fuck you Asdrubal. I'm sick of this poor at bat shit. Get your head out of your ass and start playing baseball.
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Re: 8-16-13 Tribe @ Oak - "It's it" Edition

Unread postby bookelly » Sat Aug 17, 2013 12:03 am

Guy can't locate his FB...so your approach is to weakly swing and loft one to left on the 1st pitch?!?
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Re: 8-16-13 Tribe @ Oak - "It's it" Edition

Unread postby skatingtripods » Sat Aug 17, 2013 12:15 am

It's becoming a regular occurrence for Yan Gomes to have the best at bat of the night. While that's promising and good for him, it's not a good development for the Indians.
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Re: 8-16-13 Tribe @ Oak - "It's it" Edition

Unread postby bookelly » Sat Aug 17, 2013 12:47 am

Droobs needs a slumpbuster. Horrible game. Horrible luck.
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Re: 8-16-13 Tribe @ Oak - "It's it" Edition

Unread postby Prosecutor » Sat Aug 17, 2013 9:32 am

No clutch hitting except for Swisher. 1-for-9 with RISP, 13 runners LOB. Both Indians runs were due to defensive lapses by Oakland outfielders - the wild throw to 3rd and Stubbs' double that should have been caught. Just a horrible offensive showing.

At least Cabrera is no longer hitting cleanup so we have to wait longer to see him kill a rally. He's now 0-for-20. Too bad that line drive in the 9th didn't find a hole, maybe that would have busted him out of it. Tito finally dropped him in the batting order, I wonder if he might start giving Aviles some starts at SS. Francona doesn't give up on guys easily, though, look how long he stuck with Reynolds before finally cutting bait.

Kipnis needed to make a better relay throw in the 8th. Just put the ball on target and the guy is dead at the plate. It looked like he rushed his throw and it sailed high and right.

Chisenhall looks awful at the plate. He's late on everything and I can't remember the last time he hit the ball hard.
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Re: 8-16-13 Tribe @ Oak - "It's it" Edition

Unread postby skatingtripods » Sat Aug 17, 2013 11:37 am

Prosecutor wrote:Kipnis needed to make a better relay throw in the 8th. Just put the ball on target and the guy is dead at the plate. It looked like he rushed his throw and it sailed high and right.


Wasn't Kipnis's fault. Stubbs had a poor throw to the cutoff.

Either way, that play shouldn't have made a difference. You're not going to leave 13 men on and still win the game on most nights.
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Re: 8-16-13 Tribe @ Oak - "It's it" Edition

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Sat Aug 17, 2013 11:57 am

Something needs to be done about Cabrera, he's just a dead bat in the lineup and his glove may be average in the field... at best.
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Re: 8-16-13 Tribe @ Oak - "It's it" Edition

Unread postby skatingtripods » Sat Aug 17, 2013 12:21 pm

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:Something needs to be done about Cabrera, he's just a dead bat in the lineup and his glove may be average in the field... at best.


What blows for us is that he has destroyed most of his trade value. Aviles is a good enough stopgap for 2014 while we wait for Lindor, although when he was playing everyday with Cabrera on the DL, he didn't perform all that well at the plate.

We may simply be stuck with Cabrera and hope that we can get a career year out of him since he'll be looking for a payday after the season.
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Re: 8-16-13 Tribe @ Oak - "It's it" Edition

Unread postby leadpipe » Sat Aug 17, 2013 2:34 pm

skatingtripods wrote:
Cerebral_DownTime wrote:Something needs to be done about Cabrera, he's just a dead bat in the lineup and his glove may be average in the field... at best.


What blows for us is that he has destroyed most of his trade value. Aviles is a good enough stopgap for 2014 while we wait for Lindor, although when he was playing everyday with Cabrera on the DL, he didn't perform all that well at the plate.

We may simply be stuck with Cabrera and hope that we can get a career year out of him since he'll be looking for a payday after the season.


Unfortunately, as much as Aviles is a career stop-gap, he can only play one position. Christ, they can't afford to lose his 3rd base at bats.

Look, overall, for the immediate future of the team, it's best that the pitching seems to be the improvement point. But they've got SERIOUS offensive issues, with no real help even close. They've got a mediocre at best offensive outfield - and who's really improving there? Their corner production BLOWS - and even if Swisher bounces back. he ain't givin' you good first base production. They've got above average offense from two positions on the field, and I just don't see where the help is coming from. Sucking at drafting for 10 years...that's startin' to show big.

Again, I'd rather have the pitching be the better end of it, but I'd get used to a pretty poor offense for a few more years.
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Re: 8-16-13 Tribe @ Oak - "It's it" Edition

Unread postby Dnthateonthepronk » Sat Aug 17, 2013 2:46 pm

They are 5th in all of baseball in runs scored, 8th in doubles, 5th in HRs, 7th in walks, (they are 8th in K's ::doh:: ) , 9th in stolen bases, , 14th in avg, 9th in OBP, 10th in slugging, and 11th in OPS.

They are not a poor offense, and the offense should hold relatively steady for the next few years. They are not going to be the Tigers but the wont be the Cubs either. At worst they fall back to the middle of the pack.

The problem with the offense is they are incredibly streaky, they need to be a bit more consistent(Most obvious statement of the year). An actual MOTO bat would help that I think, but slim to none it comes. But again even if it doesnt the offensive outlook is not that bleak.
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Re: 8-16-13 Tribe @ Oak - "It's it" Edition

Unread postby skatingtripods » Sat Aug 17, 2013 5:47 pm

leadpipe wrote:
skatingtripods wrote:
Cerebral_DownTime wrote:Something needs to be done about Cabrera, he's just a dead bat in the lineup and his glove may be average in the field... at best.


What blows for us is that he has destroyed most of his trade value. Aviles is a good enough stopgap for 2014 while we wait for Lindor, although when he was playing everyday with Cabrera on the DL, he didn't perform all that well at the plate.

We may simply be stuck with Cabrera and hope that we can get a career year out of him since he'll be looking for a payday after the season.


Unfortunately, as much as Aviles is a career stop-gap, he can only play one position. Christ, they can't afford to lose his 3rd base at bats.

Look, overall, for the immediate future of the team, it's best that the pitching seems to be the improvement point. But they've got SERIOUS offensive issues, with no real help even close. They've got a mediocre at best offensive outfield - and who's really improving there? Their corner production BLOWS - and even if Swisher bounces back. he ain't givin' you good first base production. They've got above average offense from two positions on the field, and I just don't see where the help is coming from. Sucking at drafting for 10 years...that's startin' to show big.

Again, I'd rather have the pitching be the better end of it, but I'd get used to a pretty poor offense for a few more years.


League avg slash at 1B: .254/.330/.445
Swisher 2013: .239/.338/.390
Swisher career: .254/.359/.461

You can make the Yankee Stadium argument if you want, but Swisher is at least league average, and probably slightly above it at 1B in a standard season. The down year is a killer.

League avg slash at 2B: .257/.318/.375
Kipnis 2013: .294/.374/.484
Kipnis career: .272/.349/.433

Should perennially be above average by a sizable margin.

League avg slash at SS: .249/.302/.358
Cabrera 2013: .231/.286/.384
Cabrera career: .273/.335/.412

Should perennially be above average by a sizable margin. Very weak position offensively.

League avg slash at 3B: .258/.317/.404
Chisenhall 2013: .220/.269/.354
Chisenhall career: .244/.285/.395

Problem area.

League avg slash in LF: .254/.323/.411
Brantley 2013: .283/.334/.396
Brantley career: .276/.330/.381

Well above average batting average, slightly above average OBP. Lack of power is problem given overall lack of team power. But Brantley's been an above average offensive performer last two seasons.

League avg slash in CF: .260/.324/.401
Bourn 2013: .268/.319/.349
Bourn career: .271/.336/.363

Value in other places, but hope for league average offense on yearly basis.

League avg slash in RF: .256/.317/.408
Stubbs 2013: .243/.300/.367
Stubbs career: .241/.310/.383

Problem area.

League avg slash at C: .245/.316/.393
Santana 2013: .262/.364/.444
Santana career: .251/.363/.443

Well above league average.

Indians would be above league average at C, 2B, SS, and potentially LF, depending on how you look at it. Standard year from Swisher is above league average at 1B. Around league average at LF, CF. RF and 3B are the main problem areas.

The lack of power is a problem, but the Indians are by no means a poor offense. All things considered, if you look position by position, they're an above average offense. Not by a large margin, but still above average.

Stubbs is hitting .304/.382/.417/.799 against LHP. Logical solution: Get a LHB to platoon with him against RHP. You can create an above league average OF if you find the right platoon guy (Nate Schierholtz!).

This offense is plenty good enough even with a black hole at 3B and below average full-time RF if Swisher and Cabrera are somewhere in the area of their career production.
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Re: 8-16-13 Tribe @ Oak - "It's it" Edition

Unread postby leadpipe » Sat Aug 17, 2013 6:08 pm

skatingtripods wrote:
leadpipe wrote:
skatingtripods wrote:
Cerebral_DownTime wrote:Something needs to be done about Cabrera, he's just a dead bat in the lineup and his glove may be average in the field... at best.


What blows for us is that he has destroyed most of his trade value. Aviles is a good enough stopgap for 2014 while we wait for Lindor, although when he was playing everyday with Cabrera on the DL, he didn't perform all that well at the plate.

We may simply be stuck with Cabrera and hope that we can get a career year out of him since he'll be looking for a payday after the season.


Unfortunately, as much as Aviles is a career stop-gap, he can only play one position. Christ, they can't afford to lose his 3rd base at bats.

Look, overall, for the immediate future of the team, it's best that the pitching seems to be the improvement point. But they've got SERIOUS offensive issues, with no real help even close. They've got a mediocre at best offensive outfield - and who's really improving there? Their corner production BLOWS - and even if Swisher bounces back. he ain't givin' you good first base production. They've got above average offense from two positions on the field, and I just don't see where the help is coming from. Sucking at drafting for 10 years...that's startin' to show big.

Again, I'd rather have the pitching be the better end of it, but I'd get used to a pretty poor offense for a few more years.


League avg slash at 1B: .254/.330/.445
Swisher 2013: .239/.338/.390
Swisher career: .254/.359/.461

You can make the Yankee Stadium argument if you want, but Swisher is at least league average, and probably slightly above it at 1B in a standard season. The down year is a killer.

League avg slash at 2B: .257/.318/.375
Kipnis 2013: .294/.374/.484
Kipnis career: .272/.349/.433

Should perennially be above average by a sizable margin.

League avg slash at SS: .249/.302/.358
Cabrera 2013: .231/.286/.384
Cabrera career: .273/.335/.412

Should perennially be above average by a sizable margin. Very weak position offensively.

League avg slash at 3B: .258/.317/.404
Chisenhall 2013: .220/.269/.354
Chisenhall career: .244/.285/.395

Problem area.

League avg slash in LF: .254/.323/.411
Brantley 2013: .283/.334/.396
Brantley career: .276/.330/.381

Well above average batting average, slightly above average OBP. Lack of power is problem given overall lack of team power. But Brantley's been an above average offensive performer last two seasons.

League avg slash in CF: .260/.324/.401
Bourn 2013: .268/.319/.349
Bourn career: .271/.336/.363

Value in other places, but hope for league average offense on yearly basis.

League avg slash in RF: .256/.317/.408
Stubbs 2013: .243/.300/.367
Stubbs career: .241/.310/.383

Problem area.

League avg slash at C: .245/.316/.393
Santana 2013: .262/.364/.444
Santana career: .251/.363/.443

Well above league average.

Indians would be above league average at C, 2B, SS, and potentially LF, depending on how you look at it. Standard year from Swisher is above league average at 1B. Around league average at LF, CF. RF and 3B are the main problem areas.

The lack of power is a problem, but the Indians are by no means a poor offense. All things considered, if you look position by position, they're an above average offense. Not by a large margin, but still above average.

Stubbs is hitting .304/.382/.417/.799 against LHP. Logical solution: Get a LHB to platoon with him against RHP. You can create an above league average OF if you find the right platoon guy (Nate Schierholtz!).

This offense is plenty good enough even with a black hole at 3B and below average full-time RF if Swisher and Cabrera are somewhere in the area of their career production.


So yeah, 2B and C. Certainly not shortstop this year. And we LF is about a toss-up I suppose. That's how I count 2.

You have no playa 3-4-5 that anyone fears, too many guys that are terrible situationally, and again you don't have much room for improvement. The great majority of the guys "are what they are." Not sure who we expect to improve my leaps and bounds.

Just my opinion. Anyone else that sees a really good offense for the next couple years - great.
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Re: 8-16-13 Tribe @ Oak - "It's it" Edition

Unread postby skatingtripods » Sat Aug 17, 2013 6:51 pm

Not this year, but your exact words were "I'd get used to a pretty poor offense for a few more years."

These are outliers for Swisher and Cabrera. While I'll grant that Swisher is now approaching his mid-30s when decline starts to happen, this is easily one of the worst years either of those guys have had.

Fine, I get your point that we don't have a Miguel Cabrera or a Joey Votto. The Indians' plan is to compile guys to hit league average or better to compensate for the lack of a superstar. With the exception of 3B (and between Raburn and Stubbs, RF hasn't been that bad), they're well on their way to that kind of offense.

This offense would look significantly different if Swisher and Cabrera weren't terrible all year and Santana's OPS since May was better than ~.710. Yes, another "if", but we're talking about guys with track records who got behind early with injuries and never got it going.

I'd be willing to put money on the Indians having a top 10 offense next season. We can haggle over whatever stat you want to use for that.
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Re: 8-16-13 Tribe @ Oak - "It's it" Edition

Unread postby Prosecutor » Sat Aug 17, 2013 6:57 pm

Next year Gomes gets most of the at-bats Reynolds got this year, which improves the offense.

Then let's say we get a left-handed hitting RF to platoon with Stubbs, who is helpless against righties.

Let's say Swisher's shoulder heals up in the off-season and he's back to his career norms next year. Not even a good year, just a career norm.

That just leaves 3rd base as the only sub-standard offensive position. I'm really starting to doubt whether Chisenhall will ever hit enough to justify a starting corner infield spot.

Still, with Gomes catching, Santana replacing Reynolds at DH/1B, Swisher getting back to normal and a platoon guy for RF, that should improve the offense from 5th out of 30 to maybe 3rd, if not more. If we can get a little more than we're getting now from 3rd base and if Cabrera gets back to his career norms, we'd be even better.

There's also the possibility that Raburn goes back to being Raburn, but when he's healthy and is used intelligently he's always been productive.

Too bad we got nothing in the minors for a while, but there's a decent chance the offense could be better next year with just the guys we have.
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Re: 8-16-13 Tribe @ Oak - "It's it" Edition

Unread postby pup » Sat Aug 17, 2013 7:44 pm

And we're off.
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Re: 8-16-13 Tribe @ Oak - "It's it" Edition

Unread postby leadpipe » Sat Aug 17, 2013 7:45 pm

skatingtripods wrote:Not this year, but your exact words were "I'd get used to a pretty poor offense for a few more years."

These are outliers for Swisher and Cabrera. While I'll grant that Swisher is now approaching his mid-30s when decline starts to happen, this is easily one of the worst years either of those guys have had.

Fine, I get your point that we don't have a Miguel Cabrera or a Joey Votto. The Indians' plan is to compile guys to hit league average or better to compensate for the lack of a superstar. With the exception of 3B (and between Raburn and Stubbs, RF hasn't been that bad), they're well on their way to that kind of offense.

This offense would look significantly different if Swisher and Cabrera weren't terrible all year and Santana's OPS since May was better than ~.710. Yes, another "if", but we're talking about guys with track records who got behind early with injuries and never got it going.

I'd be willing to put money on the Indians having a top 10 offense next season. We can haggle over whatever stat you want to use for that.


To be clear - I'm not saying they are doing anything wrong. Sure, they gotta compile guys the way you are suggesting - but if they compile guys that hit league average or a little better, than they aren't equal to guys that are GOOD.

And I'm not sure the baseline here should be league average. (Understanding that's how I phrased it in the opener) But if we're talking a good offense, I think the baseline would need to be the average of good offenses.

And on Carbrera being an outlier, I agree for this year - I just don't see the guy here for more than another season which makes his contributions to future offense here pretty moot. If you tell me he's gonna here 4 more seasons, than there's another above average player.

And Santana is a plus player. But I'd like my plus player on a good offensive team to be less of a dolt. Don't get me wrong, I see his value even as dim as he is, but again, in looking for someone to "drive the bus" and be a linchpin/star that teams are afraid to deal with.... And, what keeps him from being a superstar - not sure the long stretches of pull happiness is going away if he hasn't learned by now. As good as he is, there are several stretches in a year where he's an out.

And if Cabby and Swisher are outliers, than there's an outlier in that Rayburn Stubbs RF poistion, no? And it ain't Stubbs, you could set your watch to him stinkin'
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Re: 8-16-13 Tribe @ Oak - "It's it" Edition

Unread postby leadpipe » Sat Aug 17, 2013 7:53 pm

Prosecutor wrote:Next year Gomes gets most of the at-bats Reynolds got this year, which improves the offense.

Then let's say we get a left-handed hitting RF to platoon with Stubbs, who is helpless against righties.

Let's say Swisher's shoulder heals up in the off-season and he's back to his career norms next year. Not even a good year, just a career norm.

That just leaves 3rd base as the only sub-standard offensive position. I'm really starting to doubt whether Chisenhall will ever hit enough to justify a starting corner infield spot.

Still, with Gomes catching, Santana replacing Reynolds at DH/1B, Swisher getting back to normal and a platoon guy for RF, that should improve the offense from 5th out of 30 to maybe 3rd, if not more. If we can get a little more than we're getting now from 3rd base and if Cabrera gets back to his career norms, we'd be even better.

There's also the possibility that Raburn goes back to being Raburn, but when he's healthy and is used intelligently he's always been productive.

Too bad we got nothing in the minors for a while, but there's a decent chance the offense could be better next year with just the guys we have.


This has GOT to go into the library.

The CLASSIC Pros post. Gotta little sprinkle of everything.

Salute.

Can't believe all these Cleveland teams, being only about 75 perfect moves away from things falling right into place still continue to lose.

A little full time Yanni Gomes, mixed with a mystery platoon partner for Stubbs and a healthy Swish, and nobody will know who the hell the 27 Yankees were.

Startin to love the glass half full in a weird sort of way.

Kepp em' comin'
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Re: 8-16-13 Tribe @ Oak - "It's it" Edition

Unread postby skatingtripods » Sat Aug 17, 2013 10:25 pm

leadpipe wrote:And on Carbrera being an outlier, I agree for this year - I just don't see the guy here for more than another season which makes his contributions to future offense here pretty moot. If you tell me he's gonna here 4 more seasons, than there's another above average player.


Fair. And we don't exactly know what Lindor's hit tool will look like at the Major League level.

And Santana is a plus player. But I'd like my plus player on a good offensive team to be less of a dolt. Don't get me wrong, I see his value even as dim as he is, but again, in looking for someone to "drive the bus" and be a linchpin/star that teams are afraid to deal with.... And, what keeps him from being a superstar - not sure the long stretches of pull happiness is going away if he hasn't learned by now. As good as he is, there are several stretches in a year where he's an out.


I agree 100%. I'm actually not a Santana fan, though, like you, I totally understand his value.

I like to play devil's advocate because I'm usually the only one arguing that side around here. I don't disagree with what you're saying, and you acknowledged that my posts have held value in the context of your original post.

I'd love to draft and develop or somehow acquire that big bat for 3B/RF. Hopefully it happens soon.

And if Cabby and Swisher are outliers, than there's an outlier in that Rayburn Stubbs RF poistion, no? And it ain't Stubbs, you could set your watch to him stinkin'


Stubbs has almost always hit lefties. I said over and over again that Stubbs has value as a platoon player and should be exactly that prior to the season. Unfortunately, he plays against almost everybody. Assuming the Indians don't bring back Giambi, they need to focus on getting a platoon for Stubbs to add to the bench. You can piecemeal a 3-4 win player in RF with the right platoon partner.

Sure, I'd love a 3-4 win player in RF as just one person, but it is what it is.
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Re: 8-16-13 Tribe @ Oak - "It's it" Edition

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Sat Aug 17, 2013 10:39 pm

skatingtripods wrote:I'd love to draft and develop or somehow acquire that big bat for 3B/RF. Hopefully it happens soon.


It hurts my head to think of how many "can't miss" bats from the Indians system have sucked asscobbler at the Major League level. It's one of the more ridiculous things I've ever witnessed in sports. These can't miss guys haven't even been able to hit replacement level at what an "all but Santana and Kipp" clip for the last half a decade? I guess you could give them Droobs too, but damn
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Re: 8-16-13 Tribe @ Oak - "It's it" Edition

Unread postby skatingtripods » Sat Aug 17, 2013 11:25 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:It hurts my head to think of how many "can't miss" bats from the Indians system have sucked asscobbler at the Major League level. It's one of the more ridiculous things I've ever witnessed in sports. These can't miss guys haven't even been able to hit replacement level at what an "all but Santana and Kipp" clip for the last half a decade? I guess you could give them Droobs too, but damn


I truly believe Michael Aubrey had a good hit tool, but he never stayed healthy.

Kevin Kouzmanoff raked at every minor league level and he wound up being replacement level.

I never knew that the Indians drafted Desmond Jennings in the 15th round in 2005. Opted to go to JUCO for a year. Moved up five rounds when the Rays took him in 2006.

Outside of Kipnis, the top position player by WAR drafted (and signed) by the Indians since 2003 is Kouzmanoff with 6.8 WAR over six seasons (-0.2 with the Indians, despite that almost memorable grand slam in Texas). Next is Garko at 3.7 WAR.

That's just depressing.
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Re: 8-16-13 Tribe @ Oak - "It's it" Edition

Unread postby Erie Warrior » Sun Aug 18, 2013 12:42 am

Prosecutor wrote:Next year Gomes gets most of the at-bats Reynolds got this year, which improves the offense.


Just wanted this to go down in perpetuity.
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Re: 8-16-13 Tribe @ Oak - "It's it" Edition

Unread postby Prosecutor » Sun Aug 18, 2013 7:56 am

Erie Warrior wrote:
Prosecutor wrote:Next year Gomes gets most of the at-bats Reynolds got this year, which improves the offense.


Just wanted this to go down in perpetuity.


Are you saying you don't think Gomes will put up better numbers next year than Reynolds did this year if he gets the same number of at-bats? If that's your belief, please explain why you think a guy that is hitting over .300 with power and is getting a lot more playing time recently will hit worse next year than a guy they just released because he hasn't hit squat in three months.

Thank you.
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Re: 8-16-13 Tribe @ Oak - "It's it" Edition

Unread postby Prosecutor » Sun Aug 18, 2013 8:15 am

leadpipe wrote:
Prosecutor wrote:Next year Gomes gets most of the at-bats Reynolds got this year, which improves the offense.

Then let's say we get a left-handed hitting RF to platoon with Stubbs, who is helpless against righties.

Let's say Swisher's shoulder heals up in the off-season and he's back to his career norms next year. Not even a good year, just a career norm.

That just leaves 3rd base as the only sub-standard offensive position. I'm really starting to doubt whether Chisenhall will ever hit enough to justify a starting corner infield spot.

Still, with Gomes catching, Santana replacing Reynolds at DH/1B, Swisher getting back to normal and a platoon guy for RF, that should improve the offense from 5th out of 30 to maybe 3rd, if not more. If we can get a little more than we're getting now from 3rd base and if Cabrera gets back to his career norms, we'd be even better.

There's also the possibility that Raburn goes back to being Raburn, but when he's healthy and is used intelligently he's always been productive.

Too bad we got nothing in the minors for a while, but there's a decent chance the offense could be better next year with just the guys we have.


This has GOT to go into the library.

The CLASSIC Pros post. Gotta little sprinkle of everything.

Salute.

Can't believe all these Cleveland teams, being only about 75 perfect moves away from things falling right into place still continue to lose.

A little full time Yanni Gomes, mixed with a mystery platoon partner for Stubbs and a healthy Swish, and nobody will know who the hell the 27 Yankees were.

Startin to love the glass half full in a weird sort of way.

Kepp em' comin'


75 perfect moves? How about ONE move? Signing a left-handed outfield bat to platoon with Stubbs, which was actually skatingtripods' idea that I'm agreeing with. We're talking about a very modest free agent signing. NOT four or five moves, like they did last year with the trades for Aviles, Gomes, Shaw, Albers, and Stubbs, and the signings of Reynolds, Bourn, Swisher, Myers, and Kazmir. ONE affordable, low-key move, like when they picked up Fukodome a few years back. A veteran left-handed bat who can hit .280 against right-handers.

As usual you grossly distort what I said and then ridicule it. You're ridiculing what YOU said, not me.

I said that by picking up a decent outfielder to platoon with Stubbs, and with Gomes getting Reynolds at-bats, and if Swisher can simply have a normal year based on his career averages, "there's a decent chance the offense could be better." Specifically, I said they could move up from 5th to 3rd in runs scored, a modest improvement. You distorted my post to say "next year we'll make 75 perfect moves and make everyone forget the '27 Yankees."

Since you have zero ability to attack anything I actually said, you grossly exaggerate everything I say, then try to ridicule statements I never came close to making. You want to disagree, fine, but at least disagree with something I actually said, and then back it up with something halfway intelligent.

You're only embarassing yourself, you pathetic loser.
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Re: 8-16-13 Tribe @ Oak - "It's it" Edition

Unread postby leadpipe » Sun Aug 18, 2013 11:17 am

Prosecutor wrote:
leadpipe wrote:
Prosecutor wrote:Next year Gomes gets most of the at-bats Reynolds got this year, which improves the offense.

Then let's say we get a left-handed hitting RF to platoon with Stubbs, who is helpless against righties.

Let's say Swisher's shoulder heals up in the off-season and he's back to his career norms next year. Not even a good year, just a career norm.

That just leaves 3rd base as the only sub-standard offensive position. I'm really starting to doubt whether Chisenhall will ever hit enough to justify a starting corner infield spot.

Still, with Gomes catching, Santana replacing Reynolds at DH/1B, Swisher getting back to normal and a platoon guy for RF, that should improve the offense from 5th out of 30 to maybe 3rd, if not more. If we can get a little more than we're getting now from 3rd base and if Cabrera gets back to his career norms, we'd be even better.

There's also the possibility that Raburn goes back to being Raburn, but when he's healthy and is used intelligently he's always been productive.

Too bad we got nothing in the minors for a while, but there's a decent chance the offense could be better next year with just the guys we have.


This has GOT to go into the library.

The CLASSIC Pros post. Gotta little sprinkle of everything.

Salute.

Can't believe all these Cleveland teams, being only about 75 perfect moves away from things falling right into place still continue to lose.

A little full time Yanni Gomes, mixed with a mystery platoon partner for Stubbs and a healthy Swish, and nobody will know who the hell the 27 Yankees were.

Startin to love the glass half full in a weird sort of way.

Kepp em' comin'


75 perfect moves? How about ONE move? Signing a left-handed outfield bat to platoon with Stubbs, which was actually skatingtripods' idea that I'm agreeing with. We're talking about a very modest free agent signing. NOT four or five moves, like they did last year with the trades for Aviles, Gomes, Shaw, Albers, and Stubbs, and the signings of Reynolds, Bourn, Swisher, Myers, and Kazmir. ONE affordable, low-key move, like when they picked up Fukodome a few years back. A veteran left-handed bat who can hit .280 against right-handers.

As usual you grossly distort what I said and then ridicule it. You're ridiculing what YOU said, not me.

I said that by picking up a decent outfielder to platoon with Stubbs, and with Gomes getting Reynolds at-bats, and if Swisher can simply have a normal year based on his career averages, "there's a decent chance the offense could be better." Specifically, I said they could move up from 5th to 3rd in runs scored, a modest improvement. You distorted my post to say "next year we'll make 75 perfect moves and make everyone forget the '27 Yankees."

Since you have zero ability to attack anything I actually said, you grossly exaggerate everything I say, then try to ridicule statements I never came close to making. You want to disagree, fine, but at least disagree with something I actually said, and then back it up with something halfway intelligent.

You're only embarassing yourself, you pathetic loser.


Tongue and cheek my man, tounge and cheek.

A message board is no place for shorts in a bunch.

Things like the 27 Yankees comment aren't to be taken literally.

And I'm cool with "pathetic loser," but you can only embarrass yourself if you give a shit what people think.

I thought once I climbed aboard the glass half full train, it'd be full steam ahead with us.
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Re: 8-16-13 Tribe @ Oak - "It's it" Edition

Unread postby Erie Warrior » Sun Aug 18, 2013 2:48 pm

Prosecutor wrote:
Erie Warrior wrote:
Prosecutor wrote:Next year Gomes gets most of the at-bats Reynolds got this year, which improves the offense.


Just wanted this to go down in perpetuity.


Are you saying you don't think Gomes will put up better numbers next year than Reynolds did this year if he gets the same number of at-bats? If that's your belief, please explain why you think a guy that is hitting over .300 with power and is getting a lot more playing time recently will hit worse next year than a guy they just released because he hasn't hit squat in three months.

Thank you.


Because you asshole, if Yan Gomes improves your offense you are in a world of shit. He's a backup catcher. He has a better chance of being DFA'd than continuing to hit .300 with power. So yes, he's Mark Reynolds.
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Re: 8-16-13 Tribe @ Oak - "It's it" Edition

Unread postby Prosecutor » Sun Aug 18, 2013 3:32 pm

OK, Erie. I'll keep watching that waiver wire to see how soon they release Gomes. He's Mark Reynolds, huh? Wonder why they didn't DFA them both at the same time and get it over with. Maybe they're waiting until Marson is healthy and then they'll kick Gomes to the curb. Is that your take on it?

if Yan Gomes improves your offense you are in a world of shit


I guess we are in that world because he's already improved the offense. That is, if you call an .872 OPS an improvement.
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Re: 8-16-13 Tribe @ Oak - "It's it" Edition

Unread postby Prosecutor » Sun Aug 18, 2013 3:52 pm

Tongue and cheek my man, tounge and cheek.

I didn't read it that way.

A message board is no place for shorts in a bunch.

Glad we agree on that. I hope I don't have to throw that quote back at you someday.

Things like the 27 Yankees comment aren't to be taken literally.

No, but the point was taken.

And I'm cool with "pathetic loser," but you can only embarrass yourself if you give a shit what people think.

It's not what they think that I give a shit about, it's when they spin my posts and then ridicule the spin.

I thought once I climbed aboard the glass half full train, it'd be full steam ahead with us.

I don't care which train you're on. I respect the glass half empty train just as much. Because you know what? It very well may BE half empty (or worse). If the sports history of this town means anything it probably is.

But maybe the worm is turning. If somebody told me last October that we'd sign a guy off the Sugarland Skeeters with a 5.34 ERA and he'd be 7-4 at this point, I'd never believe it. Or that we'd sign a guy who got cut by the Tigers after hitting .171 and he would lead the team in OPS. Or that Ubaldo would have a 4.00 ERA at this point in the season after going 9-17 last year. Or that a minor league catcher we got as a throw-in for Esmil Rogers would be hitting .306/.872 and throwing out 50% of base stealers. Or that we'd land Terry Francona to replace Acta.

Or that we'd still be in playoff contention in late August.

Shit like that is making the glass half full train a little more crowded.
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Re: 8-16-13 Tribe @ Oak - "It's it" Edition

Unread postby skatingtripods » Sun Aug 18, 2013 7:37 pm

Even if we try to remain ignorant to the fact that Gomes's best minor league season, his AAA season in which he played in the hitter haven in Las Vegas, expecting production similar to this season is ridiculous. Gomes had ONE minor league season with an .872 OPS or higher. Guys generally don't get to the Show and suddenly become better than they ever were in the minors.

If you get a .770 OPS from Gomes over the course of 550 AB, you should be absolutely thrilled about it. He doesn't walk. His BABIP is well above where it should be for a guy with his speed and he never slugged above .489 in the minors, and, again, that was in Las Vegas where the ball carried like it's strapped to a rocket.

Temper your expectations for Gomes.
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Re: 8-16-13 Tribe @ Oak - "It's it" Edition

Unread postby leadpipe » Sun Aug 18, 2013 9:26 pm

skatingtripods wrote:Even if we try to remain ignorant to the fact that Gomes's best minor league season, his AAA season in which he played in the hitter haven in Las Vegas, expecting production similar to this season is ridiculous. Gomes had ONE minor league season with an .872 OPS or higher. Guys generally don't get to the Show and suddenly become better than they ever were in the minors.

If you get a .770 OPS from Gomes over the course of 550 AB, you should be absolutely thrilled about it. He doesn't walk. His BABIP is well above where it should be for a guy with his speed and he never slugged above .489 in the minors, and, again, that was in Las Vegas where the ball carried like it's strapped to a rocket.

Temper your expectations for Gomes.


Not to mention in 2012 Yan Gomes coulda smacked every single Indians fan in the head with his crank, and not a one woulda known who the hell he is.

And a dead guy would get a favorable comparison to 2013 Mark Reynolds. Might need to set the bar a smidge higher.
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Re: 8-16-13 Tribe @ Oak - "It's it" Edition

Unread postby Prosecutor » Mon Aug 19, 2013 9:16 am

skatingtripods wrote:If you get a .770 OPS from Gomes over the course of 550 AB, you should be absolutely thrilled about it. He doesn't walk. His BABIP is well above where it should be for a guy with his speed and he never slugged above .489 in the minors, and, again, that was in Las Vegas where the ball carried like it's strapped to a rocket.

Temper your expectations for Gomes.


Unfortunately, I have to agree. I've seen too many guys come up and rock major league pitching for a couple of months until the pitchers found the holes in their swings. Gomes is something like 0-for-12 the last three games, so it may be happening already.

Nothing wrong with his defense or throwing arm, though, and when he does get a mistake he hits it a long way.

Worse case scenario he's Kelly Shoppach. Although I have to believe his BA will be higher than what Kelly put up. Unlike Kelly, he can take an outside pitch to right field.

The kicker is that he doesn't need to have 550 at-bats with Santana on the team. Francona can spot him like he's doing with Raburn, and look at the results he's getting with that guy. I'll take .770 OPS from my backup catcher (or my starter) any day of the week, but if Francona uses him correctly he may get a little more than that.
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Re: 8-16-13 Tribe @ Oak - "It's it" Edition

Unread postby Larvell Blanks » Mon Aug 19, 2013 10:15 am

Prosecutor wrote:
skatingtripods wrote:If you get a .770 OPS from Gomes over the course of 550 AB, you should be absolutely thrilled about it. He doesn't walk. His BABIP is well above where it should be for a guy with his speed and he never slugged above .489 in the minors, and, again, that was in Las Vegas where the ball carried like it's strapped to a rocket.

Temper your expectations for Gomes.


Unfortunately, I have to agree. I've seen too many guys come up and rock major league pitching for a couple of months until the pitchers found the holes in their swings. Gomes is something like 0-for-12 the last three games, so it may be happening already.

Nothing wrong with his defense or throwing arm, though, and when he does get a mistake he hits it a long way.

Worse case scenario he's Kelly Shoppach. Although I have to believe his BA will be higher than what Kelly put up. Unlike Kelly, he can take an outside pitch to right field.

The kicker is that he doesn't need to have 550 at-bats with Santana on the team. Francona can spot him like he's doing with Raburn, and look at the results he's getting with that guy. I'll take .770 OPS from my backup catcher (or my starter) any day of the week, but if Francona uses him correctly he may get a little more than that.



So pretty much what Francona has done all year to this point
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Re: 8-16-13 Tribe @ Oak - "It's it" Edition

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Mon Aug 19, 2013 10:23 am

WHY ARE YOU IN SO MANY FORUMS, CAN SOMEONE PLEASE SHOOT YOU IN THE FACE AND SPARE ME
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Re: 8-16-13 Tribe @ Oak - "It's it" Edition

Unread postby Erie Warrior » Tue Aug 20, 2013 6:10 am

e0y2e3 wrote:WHY ARE YOU IN SO MANY FORUMS, CAN SOMEONE PLEASE SHOOT YOU IN THE FACE AND SPARE ME


How the fuck does he go from Gomes improving the offense to "I agree he's just a guy" in 3 posts?
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Re: 8-16-13 Tribe @ Oak - "It's it" Edition

Unread postby Prosecutor » Tue Aug 20, 2013 6:49 am

Erie Warrior wrote:
How the fuck does he go from Gomes improving the offense to "I agree he's just a guy" in 3 posts?


Because "just a guy" is an improvement over Mark Freaking Reynolds, Goose Raper.

Duh.

And a catcher with a .770 OPS (that's Tripods' prediction) and throws out 50% of base stealers is much more than "just a guy".

But I'm sure they'll DFA him soon and you'll be proved correct.
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Re: 8-16-13 Tribe @ Oak - "It's it" Edition

Unread postby skatingtripods » Tue Aug 20, 2013 8:51 am

Prosecutor wrote:And a catcher with a .770 OPS (that's Tripods' prediction) and throws out 50% of base stealers is much more than "just a guy".


That wasn't my prediction. I said you should be thrilled with it. Which, to me, is the top end of what Gomes's offensive production can be over the course of an entire season. He doesn't walk and I don't think he'll ever hit .300 over a sustained period again, so I can't see his OBP consistently being anything over .330.

Something in the .730-.740 range is more plausible IMO.
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Re: 8-16-13 Tribe @ Oak - "It's it" Edition

Unread postby leadpipe » Tue Aug 20, 2013 8:55 am

Guys, guys....can't we just enjoy the Yan Gomes era here in Cleveland before the Yanks or Dodgers come swooping in with a giant offer and take him away from us?
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Re: 8-16-13 Tribe @ Oak - "It's it" Edition

Unread postby skatingtripods » Tue Aug 20, 2013 8:59 am

leadpipe wrote:Guys, guys....can't we just enjoy the Yan Gomes era here in Cleveland before the Yanks or Dodgers come swooping in with a giant offer and take him away from us?


I'm more worried about the Yankees coming in and stealing Terry Francona. A 15-game improvement would have them in first place. It's that damn Joe Girardi that's killing that team.
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Re: 8-16-13 Tribe @ Oak - "It's it" Edition

Unread postby Prosecutor » Tue Aug 20, 2013 1:11 pm

Something in the .730-.740 range is more plausible IMO.


Which would put Gomes right in the Brantley (.733) and Swisher (.745) neighborhood. Maybe those guys are going to get DFA'd too.

Guys, guys....can't we just enjoy the Yan Gomes era here in Cleveland before the Yanks or Dodgers come swooping in with a giant offer and take him away from us?


Why would they have to make a giant offer for a guy that's about to get kicked to the curb and they can sign for peanuts like the Yankees just did with Reynolds?
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Re: 8-16-13 Tribe @ Oak - "It's it" Edition

Unread postby skatingtripods » Tue Aug 20, 2013 2:22 pm

Prosecutor wrote:
Something in the .730-.740 range is more plausible IMO.


Which would put Gomes right in the Brantley (.733) and Swisher (.745) neighborhood. Maybe those guys are going to get DFA'd too.


Sure, except Swisher's career OPS is .821.
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Re: 8-16-13 Tribe @ Oak - "It's it" Edition

Unread postby motherscratcher » Tue Aug 20, 2013 3:21 pm

skatingtripods wrote:
Prosecutor wrote:
Something in the .730-.740 range is more plausible IMO.


Which would put Gomes right in the Brantley (.733) and Swisher (.745) neighborhood. Maybe those guys are going to get DFA'd too.


Sure, except Swisher's career OPS is .821.


But Tripods, that wasn't the cherrypicked stat we're talking about.
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Re: 8-16-13 Tribe @ Oak - "It's it" Edition

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Tue Aug 20, 2013 4:22 pm

It's ok Mo, I don't even acknowledge WAR as a stat... or to be good for anything.
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