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NSA documents leaked: Obama is watching you

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Re: NSA documents leaked: Obama is watching you

Unread postby jb » Mon Jul 29, 2013 11:51 am

dmiles wrote:
jb wrote:
These two men have more or less had the exact same policies and secrets in place.

Do you ever ask yourself "why"?

Or is it because you may never sleep at night quite right again?


The alliances that formed over this Patriot Act infrastructure are indeed troubling.

- Who did Cheney spend his time recently attacking on the news program? Was it Barack?
- How about Chris Cristie Friday, who did he go after? Barry? Pelosi?
- Finally Peter King yesterday, who was his venom directed towards? Surely it was Obama right?

They are basically providing cover for the President, and I am sure when the next President is Hillary or Jeb, the Prism will be safe. Once Paul is eliminated from contention they can trot out the "Obama is a communist usurper" stuff once again.

For now we can put that stuff away until we make sure we have two safe candidates in 2016.



So this is all about a "stop Rand" konspiracy?

Miles, don't blow away my illusions that you are one that is not on the lunatic fringe.

The bedfellows on this issue are too strange to be manufactured. I really believe that there is an amount of classified shit out there so mind numbing that once opportunist scum bags of all agendas actually see it, it is so stark the blood curdles in them and they come to similar conclusions.
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Re: NSA documents leaked: Obama is watching you

Unread postby dmiles » Mon Jul 29, 2013 12:07 pm

jb wrote:
dmiles wrote:
jb wrote:
So this is all about a "stop Rand" konspiracy?

Miles, don't blow away my illusions that you are one that is not on the lunatic fringe.

The bedfellows on this issue are too strange to be manufactured. I really believe that there is an amount of classified shit out there so mind numbing that once opportunist scum bags of all agendas actually see it, it is so stark the blood curdles in them and they come to similar conclusions.


Well I am not going as far as to say this sucker is a conspiracy, in fact let's go with your suggestion.. I just want to know why their efforts are directed and Rand because at this moment I find it peculiar.

I mean the conspiracy folks are probably 10 steps ahead of us with fantasies I am sure of Snowden not being real, or a hologram or something crazy like that. I am sticking to the reported news, that we get from Pravda, errr Fox and the others.

Let's face we are speculating, mostly because none of makes any sense on the surface, but let's take your suggestion....

If this information was as you described why would 205 Reps from the house vote to defund the program? Now we are all big kids, and I am sure through some technicality the program would have remained, but let's also assume Amash's amendment had real teeth and they were truly voting to defund the NSA data collection apparatus.

Those 205 were subject to arm-twisting right? They were part of the secret briefings that day given to both parties correct? By secret, I don't mean conspiracy style, I mean the presentations given by the NSA chief were highly classified, so perhaps classified briefings is the better term. In any case they saw all that and voted to defund it anyway?
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Re: NSA documents leaked: Obama is watching you

Unread postby Commodore Perry » Mon Jul 29, 2013 1:28 pm

jb wrote: I really believe that there is an amount of classified shit out there so mind numbing that once opportunist scum bags of all agendas actually see it, it is so stark the blood curdles in them and they come to similar conclusions.


That may be true, but then at some point the dangers need to be made public.

You simply can't have the government *hint* that there is something really, really, really bad out there, and therefore they can do whatever they want, to whomever they want, in complete secrecy, no questions asked.

Disclose the potential danger. Then let the voters decide how much freedom they want to give up for security. The government can't just make that decision in secret for them.
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Re: NSA documents leaked: Obama is watching you

Unread postby jb » Mon Jul 29, 2013 1:45 pm

Commodore Perry wrote:
jb wrote: I really believe that there is an amount of classified shit out there so mind numbing that once opportunist scum bags of all agendas actually see it, it is so stark the blood curdles in them and they come to similar conclusions.


That may be true, but then at some point the dangers need to be made public.

You simply can't have the government *hint* that there is something really, really, really bad out there, and therefore they can do whatever they want, to whomever they want, in complete secrecy, no questions asked.

Disclose the potential danger. Then let the voters decide how much freedom they want to give up for security. The government can't just make that decision in secret for them.


Well, now you sound like a state's rights advocate.

The decision was made in 1861.

This precedent was set in, IDK, 1944?


Much like an libertarian thought this is great in theory but not in any sort of reality.
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Re: NSA documents leaked: Obama is watching you

Unread postby mattvan1 » Mon Jul 29, 2013 1:56 pm

jb wrote:The bedfellows on this issue are too strange to be manufactured. I really believe that there is an amount of classified shit out there so mind numbing that once opportunist scum bags of all agendas actually see it, it is so stark the blood curdles in them and they come to similar conclusions.


Occam's Razor - no one wants another 9-11, no one wants to appear soft on National Security - regardless of the effectiveness of the data illegally collected.

I think it's pretty simple, really.
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Re: NSA documents leaked: Obama is watching you

Unread postby dmiles » Mon Jul 29, 2013 3:38 pm

And I stand by the statement that I am not sure 205 reps vote against it if they knew what was out there was so heinous that we have no other choice but complete self-preservation. Winston Wolf would understand the self-preservation argument.

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Re: NSA documents leaked: Obama is watching you

Unread postby dmiles » Tue Aug 06, 2013 11:26 am

Explosive Clothing? What are they dipping this shit in some kind of Nanotechnology powder chemical?

Should be interesting on twitter today, started as a rumor, now some new sources putting some stories out there. Could be why the embassies were closed if we have no way to detect it.
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Re: NSA documents leaked: Obama is watching you

Unread postby dmiles » Tue Aug 06, 2013 12:04 pm

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Re: NSA documents leaked: Obama is watching you

Unread postby peeker643 » Tue Aug 06, 2013 12:24 pm

I just finished a fascinating book called "Mossad- The Greatest Missions of the Israeli Secret Service" and they've long feared (and captured some carriers) of the dry explosives sprinkled in clothing that can be combined during a flight and activated by one method or another.

This seems to be the next iteration of that weapon and doesn't surprise me at all.

As an aside, the book is tremendous if for nothing else in that just how far out the Israelis plan and how far they'll go to not only kill terrorists but to delay nuclear programs in enemy countries is astounding. Setting up black market companies that manufacture faulty parts and supplying Iran with insulation that actually corrodes the facility, creating and planting state of the art Trojan Horse viruses to bring down nuclear programs, the actual black bag missions that almost always occur in enemy countries.... something to behold in just the level of planning, money and expertise it takes to keep the fight unfair and on the home turf of so many countries that want them eradicated.

The overwhelming issue I walk away with is that the disorganization of the terrorists (and formal mid eastern governments) and their own hatred of each other is really the 2nd biggest factor in Israel's survival. The first being their own dedication to their country and way of life.
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Re: NSA documents leaked: Obama is watching you

Unread postby gotribe31 » Tue Aug 06, 2013 12:29 pm

Commodore Perry wrote:
jb wrote: I really believe that there is an amount of classified shit out there so mind numbing that once opportunist scum bags of all agendas actually see it, it is so stark the blood curdles in them and they come to similar conclusions.


That may be true, but then at some point the dangers need to be made public.

You simply can't have the government *hint* that there is something really, really, really bad out there, and therefore they can do whatever they want, to whomever they want, in complete secrecy, no questions asked.

Disclose the potential danger. Then let the voters decide how much freedom they want to give up for security. The government can't just make that decision in secret for them.


But what if disclosing the potential danger makes it more dangerous? Allows the bad guys to know we're tracking them and to alter their plans? Discloses sources and methods for how we're looking at them so they change their tactics?

There are already too many leaks that are harmful to our national security. You want to government to disclose every ongoing terrorist plot so the people can vote as to whether or not it's serious enough for the government to conduct constitutionally allowed surveilance and countermeasures?
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Re: NSA documents leaked: Obama is watching you

Unread postby googleeph2 » Tue Aug 06, 2013 12:30 pm

Peeker: Next to US support, you mean?
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Re: NSA documents leaked: Obama is watching you

Unread postby gotribe31 » Tue Aug 06, 2013 12:37 pm

Fire Marshall Bill 2.0 wrote:
FUDU wrote:...and the same program that couldn't spot a couple dope smoking welfare recipients before they fucked up Boston...................


....who were on a Russian watch list and notified by Russian authorities of their possible affiliation with terrorists?

Better to physically molest grandma, cripples and 5 yr olds at the airport, eh?


You guys are still so clueless over what actually happened in that case it isn't even funny.
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Re: NSA documents leaked: Obama is watching you

Unread postby peeker643 » Tue Aug 06, 2013 1:06 pm

googleeph2 wrote:Peeker: Next to US support, you mean?


Greg- The book is clealry written from an Israeli perspective. There wasn't a great deal of in depth discussion about the role of the US in most operations and there were no operations discussed that took place on US soil. Maybe that was a condition of the book and the information the authors were granted access to (and they are both Israelis I believe).

Politically we're aware of how things work between the two countries but operationally, in terms of the Mossad, they really didn't get into cooperation with the US and one gets the impression that when it comes time to pull the trigger they seek little counsel and less permission.
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Re: NSA documents leaked: Obama is watching you

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Tue Aug 06, 2013 4:01 pm

The NSA is NSGAY.

All these spying little fucks. I say kill 'em all and stuff.
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Re: NSA documents leaked: Obama is watching you

Unread postby Commodore Perry » Wed Aug 07, 2013 11:28 am

gotribe31 wrote:
But what if disclosing the potential danger makes it more dangerous? Allows the bad guys to know we're tracking them and to alter their plans? Discloses sources and methods for how we're looking at them so they change their tactics?

There are already too many leaks that are harmful to our national security. You want to government to disclose every ongoing terrorist plot so the people can vote as to whether or not it's serious enough for the government to conduct constitutionally allowed surveilance and countermeasures?


That is the handicap of playing as a democratic country that values individual rights. We played with that handicap vs the Soviet Union and came out just fine, and that was a far darker threat. We still outgun and out number these m’f’ers by a wide margin.

Now, specific details that jeopordize sources and methods don't have to be made public, but what do you actually know about the threats to America since 9/11/2001? Barely anything.

Yet we’re being told the danger is so severe, that the government must trample the constitution and put in place advanced technology and weapon systems that do one thing – identify and destroy small groups of individuals. And that the secret government organizations can’t possibly be faced with any checks and balances whatsoever, its just a far too dangerous world - just take their word for it.

I mean think about it. How much risk do you actually face from a terrorist? I’m sure you face a greater risk of death from driving in your car. But look at the history of the 20th century. Unchecked government power almost always results in very bad outcomes for its people.

All I’m saying is we should have some checks and balances and some say in that government power. Not give secret agencies carte blanche to know everything about – and do anything to - any individual
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Re: NSA documents leaked: Obama is watching you

Unread postby jerryroche » Wed Aug 07, 2013 12:28 pm

Not to diminish or demean the threat that terrorists present, but...

When I was inducted into the U.S. Army, the first sentence of my oath began: "I do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic..."

Anyone who puts his or her full faith and confidence in the U.S. government to not abuse the power it's been given to collect this information has no worries. But confidence in our federal government is at an all-time low -- probably for good reason. As has been pointed out many times in the past month, balancing individual rights to privacy with national security is indeed a tenuous undertaking; we are depending on our elected officials to act in our best interests, not only today but forever hereafter, because once the government is given any power, trying to claw it back is nearly impossible.

Just sayin'...
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Re: NSA documents leaked: Obama is watching you

Unread postby mattvan1 » Wed Aug 07, 2013 2:52 pm

gotribe31 wrote: You want to government to disclose every ongoing terrorist plot so the people can vote as to whether or not it's serious enough for the government to conduct constitutionally allowed surveilance and countermeasures?


No. I just want them to stop breaking the law and stop doing things unconstitutional. I'm sure there are 50,000 shades of grey here, but one could easily make the case that the NSA is on very very shaky legal ground AND have been operating without congressional oversight AND exactly WTF is involved in how the FISA court enacts laws without the legislative branch of government?
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Re: NSA documents leaked: Obama is watching you

Unread postby gotribe31 » Wed Aug 07, 2013 3:01 pm

FISA courts don't enact laws. Congress passed the FISA act that created the courts, which review the government's application for warrants. I'm honestly not sure what you're saying here in suggestion that the FISA court makes laws on their own.
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Re: NSA documents leaked: Obama is watching you

Unread postby mattvan1 » Wed Aug 07, 2013 5:43 pm

gotribe31 wrote:FISA courts don't enact laws. Congress passed the FISA act that created the courts, which review the government's application for warrants. I'm honestly not sure what you're saying here in suggestion that the FISA court makes laws on their own.


I misspoke, but only slightly.

However, the FISC does more than simply review and approve individualized warrant requests. The court interprets and construes the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, applying legal and constitutional principles, much like any other federal court. The difference between the FISC and every other court in the United States is that there is no opposing counsel, and their interpretation of the law is highly classified and stays that way by law for 30 years.


http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jul/29/end-nsa-secrecy-fisa-court-oversight
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Re: NSA documents leaked: Obama is watching you

Unread postby gotribe31 » Wed Aug 07, 2013 6:51 pm

All courts review and interpret laws. How does the lack of opposing consul = creating laws independent of the legislative branch?

And I know more than the Guardian.
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Re: NSA documents leaked: Obama is watching you

Unread postby mattvan1 » Wed Aug 07, 2013 7:05 pm

gotribe31 wrote:All courts review and interpret laws. How does the lack of opposing consul = creating laws independent of the legislative branch?

And I know more than the Guardian.


I know you do and I'm glad you're doing what you do. Please don't misinterpret my complete and utter disdain for the federal government as being unappreciative toward law enforcement. I believe, however, that the pendulum has swung way too far to one side - checks and balances and all that. The NSA is operating with little or no congressional oversight and is facilitated by a secret tribunal that has rubber stamped 99% of all requests. There needs to be bit more oversight. I don't expect a transparent process, but would why not a system that is at least willing to hear an opposing POV, even if those arguments are sealed for 30 years.
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Re: NSA documents leaked: Obama is watching you

Unread postby gotribe31 » Wed Aug 07, 2013 7:27 pm

I share your disdain for the federal government. Believe me. I'm as conservative as they come. In this case, the media has overblown the privacy concerns (in my opinion). I really wish I could get more into why, but I can't. I know me sitting here and saying "trust me" isn't really worth that much, but that's all I can give. I don't trust the government, but I trust (most of) these programs. They're not as bad as they're being portrayed in the media.
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Re: NSA documents leaked: Obama is watching you

Unread postby FUDU » Wed Aug 07, 2013 8:18 pm

gotribe31 wrote:I share your disdain for the federal government. Believe me. I'm as conservative as they come. In this case, the media has overblown the privacy concerns (in my opinion). I really wish I could get more into why, but I can't. I know me sitting here and saying "trust me" isn't really worth that much, but that's all I can give. I don't trust the government, but I trust (most of) these programs. They're not as bad as they're being portrayed in the media.
I don't disagree with you gt, at least with most of the programs. My issue with many of the "departments" that head these programs and drive security and intelligence. I know they get it right more than they get it wrong, and most time we don't know about it (that's a completely different conversation). But how some stuff goes down and how some yahoos get as far as they do in their plans is a bit scary if not embarrassing. No?
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Re: NSA documents leaked: Obama is watching you

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Thu Aug 08, 2013 7:01 am

This shit is real simple; If you don't have a warrant, fuck off. If there's a secret program that violates our rights, it should be exposed and shutdown. The people behind it should be thrown in prison.

Take your fucking wire taps and just stick them right up your ass. Right up there, next to your head.
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Re: NSA documents leaked: Obama is watching you

Unread postby FUDU » Thu Aug 08, 2013 8:12 pm

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:This shit is real simple; If you don't have a warrant, fuck off. If there's a secret program that violates our rights, it should be exposed and shutdown. The people behind it should be thrown in prison.

Take your fucking wire taps and just stick them right up your ass. Right up there, next to your head.


I don't disagree CDT. However there are instances in which securing this nation has to address possible communications between threats from the outside and their IN on the inside of our country. I think to some degree it becomes complicated on exactly how & when to do this.

I imagine you'd be pretty pissed off if moscratch turned out to be a terrorist and we didn't stop him from killing your fellow Americans.
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Re: NSA documents leaked: Obama is watching you

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Fri Aug 09, 2013 8:47 am

Get a warrant.

If you suspect someone of planning something, take your evidence to a judge and get warrant to tap their phones and put them under surveillance.
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Re: NSA documents leaked: Obama is watching you

Unread postby jerryroche » Fri Aug 09, 2013 9:02 am

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:Get a warrant. If you suspect someone of planning something, take your evidence to a judge and get warrant to tap their phones and put them under surveillance.

Amen, CDT. At times, the current administration (the White House, the Justice Department, the NSA, etc.) seems to forget that there is such a thing as the U.S. Constitution -- which is decidedly NOT a document that you use only when it agrees with your ideology.
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Re: NSA documents leaked: Obama is watching you

Unread postby dmiles » Fri Aug 09, 2013 12:00 pm

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Re: NSA documents leaked: Obama is watching you

Unread postby dmiles » Mon Aug 12, 2013 10:30 pm

San Diego News6 with an update on Hastings today. Apparently wifey let it slip on CNN the big thing he was working on was about CIA director John Brennan. Nothing to see here. I opened that wiki-leaks email referenced in the story on my work laptop which is a no-no. Hope I don't get fired tomorrow!! Course they've never fired me for the trannies-as-grannies porn clips, I can't imagine one accidental wikileaks click would matter. (My firm is knee-deep in spook circles)
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