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6-26-13 KaZmir's gem

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6-26-13 KaZmir's gem

Unread postby bookelly » Wed Jun 26, 2013 9:59 pm

Kasmir holds no-hitter into 7th, give up unearned run. Just a pitching clinic.
Last edited by bookelly on Wed Jun 26, 2013 10:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 6-26-13 Kasmir's gem

Unread postby justmebd » Wed Jun 26, 2013 10:02 pm

This is the first time since I don't remember when that I thought we had a legit shot at a no-hitter after five innings.

Crap.
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Re: 6-26-13 Kasmir's gem

Unread postby bookelly » Wed Jun 26, 2013 10:12 pm

And now he's hurt. My God. Oblique.
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Re: 6-26-13 Kasmir's gem

Unread postby skatingtripods » Wed Jun 26, 2013 10:16 pm

You know, or Kazmir.
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Re: 6-26-13 Kasmir's gem

Unread postby skatingtripods » Wed Jun 26, 2013 10:25 pm

Nice fucking work, Joe Smith.
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Re: 6-26-13 KaZmir's gem

Unread postby Dnthateonthepronk » Wed Jun 26, 2013 10:32 pm

Lonnie up with the basses loaded.....ugh
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Re: 6-26-13 KaZmir's gem

Unread postby dazindiansfanuk » Wed Jun 26, 2013 10:33 pm

Who'd be a manager?!

Showalter has to use Johnson in game 1 to get him some work in and, typically they then need him the next two nights also.
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Re: 6-26-13 KaZmir's gem

Unread postby dazindiansfanuk » Wed Jun 26, 2013 10:34 pm

That'll do Lonnie.
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Re: 6-26-13 KaZmir's gem

Unread postby bookelly » Wed Jun 26, 2013 10:38 pm

Stubbs is pretty fast for a white boy.
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Re: 6-26-13 KaZmir's gem

Unread postby dazindiansfanuk » Wed Jun 26, 2013 10:38 pm

You can't turn two against Stubbs!!
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Re: 6-26-13 KaZmir's gem

Unread postby skatingtripods » Wed Jun 26, 2013 10:39 pm

Pestano with a one-run lead in this ballpark. Can't say I'm overly confident, but I hope he proves me wrong. Last shot with CP coming back tomorrow.
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Re: 6-26-13 KaZmir's gem

Unread postby dazindiansfanuk » Wed Jun 26, 2013 10:39 pm

Some insurance from Bourn would be nice.
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Re: 6-26-13 KaZmir's gem

Unread postby Dnthateonthepronk » Wed Jun 26, 2013 10:40 pm

It was funny, when he hit that, the Baltimore announcer were really happy, they actually thought they were going to get a double play and were actually surprised Stubbs beat that out :lmfao:
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Re: 6-26-13 KaZmir's gem

Unread postby motherscratcher » Wed Jun 26, 2013 10:41 pm

According to my sources CDT farts in the tub and bites the bubbles.
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Re: 6-26-13 KaZmir's gem

Unread postby Dnthateonthepronk » Wed Jun 26, 2013 10:43 pm

Ive been thinking he should be the one moved to the pen...moot now with the injury for the time being. But he is still getting Lefties put consistently, would save us from having to make a trade, but again its a moot point now with the injury
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Re: 6-26-13 KaZmir's gem

Unread postby dazindiansfanuk » Wed Jun 26, 2013 10:44 pm

Just Davis, Wieters and Hardy due up for Pestano.
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Re: 6-26-13 KaZmir's gem

Unread postby skatingtripods » Wed Jun 26, 2013 10:45 pm

Why is everybody's solution to put a starter in the bullpen? Guys with control problems and a knack for giving up HRs don't exactly excel in the bullpen.

He's a starter. Let him work through it.
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Re: 6-26-13 KaZmir's gem

Unread postby motherscratcher » Wed Jun 26, 2013 10:49 pm

skatingtripods wrote:Why is everybody's solution to put a starter in the bullpen? Guys with control problems and a knack for giving up HRs don't exactly excel in the bullpen.

He's a starter. Let him work through it.


Agree completely.

And FTR, to avoid any confusion, I posted that link because that article is fucking stupid, and since I accidentally read it I thought everyone else should have to too.
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Re: 6-26-13 KaZmir's gem

Unread postby Dnthateonthepronk » Wed Jun 26, 2013 10:52 pm

skatingtripods wrote:Why is everybody's solution to put a starter in the bullpen? Guys with control problems and a knack for giving up HRs don't exactly excel in the bullpen.

He's a starter. Let him work through it.


Because we need a left handed reliever who can get lefties out.

Just an idea if Bauer and Carrasco could show some consistency and with McCallister coming back there could be a surplus. To me its not about his performance as a starter, just that we have a greater need for a lefty in the pen, and if it actually worked it could save us from having to make a trade for one.
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Re: 6-26-13 KaZmir's gem

Unread postby skatingtripods » Wed Jun 26, 2013 10:52 pm

Atta boy, Vinnie.

Go get us the series tomorrow, Corey.
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Re: 6-26-13 KaZmir's gem

Unread postby dazindiansfanuk » Wed Jun 26, 2013 10:53 pm

Vinnie nails it down to get Smith the win.... the joys of Baseball scoring!
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Re: 6-26-13 KaZmir's gem

Unread postby bookelly » Wed Jun 26, 2013 10:54 pm

And Joe Smith can now take a deep breath. And buy Kazmir a nice bottle of scotch.
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Re: 6-26-13 KaZmir's gem

Unread postby skatingtripods » Wed Jun 26, 2013 11:59 pm

Anybody make the "Joe Smith just knows how to win" comment yet?

Was just breaking down tomorrow's game. Miguel Gonzalez, who was on the DL earlier this year, has allowed his highest two zone-contact rate games in his last two starts with a pretty significant drop in ground ball rate. He's getting the ball up. Indians might have a little fun tomorrow night.

Of course, I could be way off, but I'm going to tell myself that Gonzalez is due to get shelled (FIP and SIERA show regression to begin with).
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Re: 6-26-13 KaZmir's gem

Unread postby bookelly » Thu Jun 27, 2013 7:48 am

skatingtripods wrote:Anybody make the "Joe Smith just knows how to win" comment yet?

Was just breaking down tomorrow's game. Miguel Gonzalez, who was on the DL earlier this year, has allowed his highest two zone-contact rate games in his last two starts with a pretty significant drop in ground ball rate. He's getting the ball up. Indians might have a little fun tomorrow night.

Of course, I could be way off, but I'm going to tell myself that Gonzalez is due to get shelled (FIP and SIERA show regression to begin with).


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Re: 6-26-13 KaZmir's gem

Unread postby Prosecutor » Thu Jun 27, 2013 8:21 am

The Yahoo article wasn't that stupid. Kazmir has teased us all year with starts where he goes 7 innings giving up 1 run, then gets hammered the next time out. He's been a model of inconsistency.

His last two starts have been awesome, however - 14 innings, 6 hits, 1 ER, 1 BB, 11 K's. It doesn't get any better than that. Maybe he's finally putting it together, although one of those starts was against the weak-hitting Twins.

I just hope those back spasms were a temporary thing and he can continue to start. If not, he'd be a hell of a reliever.

Carrasco pitches tomorrow. If he dominates it will make things interesting when McAllister is ready after the AS break.

Asdrubal is back, Rage will be back today, and McAllister in a couple of weeks. The Tribe has won 10 of 14 and the toughest part of the schedule is behind them. Pestano has his heater back and struck out two hitters last night, including Chris Davis. Things are looking pretty good, boys.
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Re: 6-26-13 KaZmir's gem

Unread postby WiscTribeFan » Thu Jun 27, 2013 9:28 am

I think folks need to remember that Kazmir basically hasn't pitched much in the bigs in the last three years. He is going to be inconsistent. When he is on, though, he's got some really great stuff, like his last two outings. I think the Tribe is going to give him a lot of space to see if he can settle in as a starter. I can't see him going to the pen.

Problem is, if he finds himself, pitches well this year, he's gone next season. Even with good numbers, it would be hard for the Tribe to commit to a multi-year deal with a guy with his injury problems.
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Re: 6-26-13 KaZmir's gem

Unread postby googleeph2 » Thu Jun 27, 2013 9:52 am

Can't believe it's even a debate. As long as it's realistic to hope Kazmir can be a starter who can dominate, that's where you keep him. If you move him to the pen, when do you try him again as a starter?
Next year? And if he starts out with next year with a year like this one, can you be patient enough to stick with him then, and stretch him out?

They need a reliable lefty (funny: during the masterson game, he was up 3-1 or something. I left the game and came back later. Tribe was down like 6-3 with Hagadone pitching. I cussed him up a storm!!! Even after I saw he'd allowed no earned runs, I assumed his inherited runners score. Wasn;t his fault.).

But shortchanging their chances on Kazmir being a starter you can win with is way too shortsighted.
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Re: 6-26-13 KaZmir's gem

Unread postby skatingtripods » Thu Jun 27, 2013 10:26 am

Dnthateonthepronk wrote:Because we need a left handed reliever who can get lefties out.


We're talking about a guy who had a serious velocity drop and had to rebuild himself from the ground up, in part because of injuries. What about him says that he can pitch back-to-back days? Three out of four days? Four out of six days?

Yes, he can get lefties out. But it doesn't mean he's equipped to do that role.
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Re: 6-26-13 KaZmir's gem

Unread postby Dnthateonthepronk » Thu Jun 27, 2013 12:14 pm

skatingtripods wrote:
Yes, he can get lefties out. But it doesn't mean he's equipped to do that role.


We also dont know if he is equipped to do it

Again Possibly trying a Scott Kazmir bullpen experiment, would be contingent on 2 of Carrasco, Bauer and McCallister being in the rotation and performing better than what Kazmir has given so far.

He might get phased out when McCallister comes back. because you would have Masterson, Ubaldo, Kluber and McCallister. If they all continue to not be trainwrecks and pitch effectively that leaves one spot. Say Carrasco or Bauer go out and claim that spot, what do you do with Kazmir? Send him to triple A to start? I suppose that would be an option but not one anybody would like and you cant keep him in the rotation if Carrasco and or Bauer are forcing your hand.

Im not saying its easy to switch to the bullpen and its only hypothetical based on the above happening and Kazmir continuing with inconsistency and if Kaz was lighting the world on fire I wouldnt suggest it, but hes not and if experimenting with Kazmir is such a huge deal and could make or break our season, then we are in big trouble.
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Re: 6-26-13 KaZmir's gem

Unread postby googleeph2 » Thu Jun 27, 2013 12:30 pm

Dnthateonthepronk wrote: 2 of Carrasco, Bauer and McCallister being in the rotation and performing better than what Kazmir has given so far.


Well they are in 'try to win' mode. But a viable MOR starter is realistic for him, and that >>> a LOOGY, even if you don't have one.

But it seems safe to say the assumption that removing Kazmir won't leave a hole in the rotation is farfetched, anyway.
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Re: 6-26-13 KaZmir's gem

Unread postby skatingtripods » Thu Jun 27, 2013 1:02 pm

Dnthateonthepronk wrote:We also dont know if he is equipped to do it


Maybe not, but logic, track record, and injury record would put the odds strongly in favor of my argument.

He might get phased out when McCallister comes back. because you would have Masterson, Ubaldo, Kluber and McCallister. If they all continue to not be trainwrecks and pitch effectively that leaves one spot. Say Carrasco or Bauer go out and claim that spot, what do you do with Kazmir? Send him to triple A to start? I suppose that would be an option but not one anybody would like and you cant keep him in the rotation if Carrasco and or Bauer are forcing your hand.


The shit is about to hit the fan soon, again, with Ubaldo. He has a 2.67 ERA in June with a 4.75 FIP. His strand rate is nearly 87% and his fly ball rate has jumped. Unfortunately he'll be a fixture in the rotation because there's nothing else they can do, but he's on the verge of blowing up.

And if you don't like the stats, watch the guy pitch. He's getting away with so much shit in the middle of the plate. That'll change.

McAllister hasn't even made a rehab start yet. He'll have to make at least two, possibly three, which means he won't be back until after the All-Star Break at the earliest.

I hate reading too much into MiLB stats, especially pitcher stats from Huntington Park, but Bauer's not exactly setting the world on fire and Carrasco has made four starts in MLB, has a 1/1 K/BB ratio, and has a 7.78 ERA, 5.03 FIP, and 5.31 SIERA. Kazmir has a 4.83, 4.71, 3.83. The SIERA is telling. He's in line for improvement and we saw it last night.

I fail to see how Bauer/Carrasco would be an upgrade to Kazmir at this point.
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Re: 6-26-13 KaZmir's gem

Unread postby Dnthateonthepronk » Thu Jun 27, 2013 1:21 pm

skatingtripods wrote:
I fail to see how Bauer/Carrasco would be an upgrade to Kazmir at this point.


Its because you arnt grasping that my idea is based HYPOTHETICALLY that those 2 BEGIN to out perform Kazmir from here on out and force the Indians to make a decision.

Im not saying that they are better now, though the fact that those 2 have much more future potential could make for a case/discussion that they should be in the rotation now anyways due to their importance to the future of the organization. Personally I think its time for Carlos to prove him self and with Bauer the way he wants to attack hitters(high in zone) he needs to see if that works up here not on triple A hitters, but at the same time those 2 dont need to be up here if it jeopardizes are contention chances.


Also I am in no way supporting Ubaldo. What he has done is all smoke and mirrors. I just dont see them taking him out of the roatation in favor of Kazmir so in my hypothetical I have Ubaldo staying in the rotation based on the indians not wanting to take him out.
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Re: 6-26-13 KaZmir's gem

Unread postby peeker643 » Thu Jun 27, 2013 1:50 pm

Hypothetically, what if the Indians just leave Kazmir alone and go out and get a more effective LOOGY than the one they have, which won't be extremely difficult to do...

That's a far more likely scenario than any other.
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Re: 6-26-13 KaZmir's gem

Unread postby skatingtripods » Thu Jun 27, 2013 3:01 pm

peeker643 wrote:Hypothetically, what if the Indians just leave Kazmir alone and go out and get a more effective LOOGY than the one they have, which won't be extremely difficult to do...

That's a far more likely scenario than any other.


If they can acquire one. Not many teams looking to give up LOOGYs yet.
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Re: 6-26-13 KaZmir's gem

Unread postby skatingtripods » Thu Jun 27, 2013 3:14 pm

Dnthateonthepronk wrote:Its because you arnt grasping that my idea is based HYPOTHETICALLY that those 2 BEGIN to out perform Kazmir from here on out and force the Indians to make a decision.

Im not saying that they are better now, though the fact that those 2 have much more future potential could make for a case/discussion that they should be in the rotation now anyways due to their importance to the future of the organization. Personally I think its time for Carlos to prove him self and with Bauer the way he wants to attack hitters(high in zone) he needs to see if that works up here not on triple A hitters, but at the same time those 2 dont need to be up here if it jeopardizes are contention chances.


How would they outperform Kazmir when neither guy can consistently stay in the Major Leagues yet?

Make the future potential argument if you want, but I highly doubt the Indians are interested in that when they're 2.5 back and have had two prolonged stretches of awful baseball this season.

AFAIC, Carrasco has proven himself. He's proven that he's not a consistent Major League pitcher and that it's unlikely that he'll ever have the maturity to be one. He has spent parts of NINE seasons in the minors already and he's not an everyday big leaguer. Maybe Tommy John derailed him last season when he'd have made the rotation, but there's very little evidence to project that he would have had success. His MiLB numbers are rather pedestrian. And his MLB numbers in 211.1 innings are ugly.

I'll be the first to admit it if I'm wrong, but I don't think I will be.

Bauer, work in progress, important part of the future like you said. Still needs more time in the oven. We'll see how he looks against a free swinging, shitty offense tomorrow, but he, unlike Carrasco, still has time to sort things out.

Not to mention, you totally contradicted yourself with the last line of what I quoted. That's exactly it. They DON'T give us a better chance to win than Kazmir. If they did, they'd be here.

And, again, Kazmir has TWO relief appearances in his career. Like the above, there's absolutely no evidence that Kazmir could stand the strain of pitching B2B days, or three times a week. Hell, we're probably lucky he's stayed together this long pitching every five or six days.
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