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Eerily Quiet in Here Given...

Need to get something off your chest? Have a topic that doesn't fit one of the other forums? Rant away in here. Mature audiences only, not for the easily offended.

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Re: Eerily Quiet in Here Given...

Unread postby peeker643 » Mon May 27, 2013 12:35 pm

mattvan1 wrote:
motherscratcher wrote:You guys can bust BPs balls all you want, but there was a lot of truth in there.


I read some contrived, albeit well articulated, truths based on a particular POV, but lumping Afganistan and Iraq in the same let's scapegoat the US bucket is simply distorting facts to fit an agenda.


Meh... doesn't matter given it's an agenda Moscratch is more than willing to prescribe to.

BP wants to ignore the overwhelming smell of shit in his own yard to tell you to clean up after your dog.

He's the murdering, rapist father surprised and appalled that is son has just been arrested for assault.
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Re: Eerily Quiet in Here Given...

Unread postby Orenthal » Mon May 27, 2013 12:43 pm

pusillanimous...

A word frequently used by Gibbons when describing the Eastern Empire.
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Re: Eerily Quiet in Here Given...

Unread postby motherscratcher » Mon May 27, 2013 1:37 pm

peeker643 wrote:
mattvan1 wrote:
motherscratcher wrote:You guys can bust BPs balls all you want, but there was a lot of truth in there.


I read some contrived, albeit well articulated, truths based on a particular POV, but lumping Afganistan and Iraq in the same let's scapegoat the US bucket is simply distorting facts to fit an agenda.


Meh... doesn't matter given it's an agenda Moscratch is more than willing to prescribe to.

BP wants to ignore the overwhelming smell of shit in his own yard to tell you to clean up after your dog.

He's the murdering, rapist father surprised and appalled that is son has just been arrested for assault.


Yeah, well "A lot of truth in there" was the wrong way to put it. I'm not prescribing to any agenda, especially not the ones where BP apparently comes to at meetings where the Tyler hands you a tinfoil hat as you walk through the door. I don't pretend to grasp these issues nearly well enough to have some sort of informed opinion on the matter, and that's why I generally stay out of these threads. I do like reading the posts of guys like Dan and JB who obviously do know what the fuck they're talking about.

What I was referring to in BPs post was mainly everyone's proclivity to label anyone that has died with a uniform on as a hero. What happened to that English soldier was awful and tragic, but I'm not sure being in the wrong place at the wrong time makes him a hero. Not any more than anyone else who has selflessly served should be called a hero. But maybe they should, And that's fine if you prescribe to that definition of hero in a Big Hall sort of way. Anyone who has served has done more than anything I've ever done in my mostly meaningless existence. I just think that the soldier dying is sad, but if there was a hero there it's that woman who sat there and talked to the lunatic until the cops got there.

But the reaction to BPs post was predictable, without even reading it. So don't go lumping me in with some far left fascist anti-America agenda because of a one sentence post and a history supporting gun control in a different thread.
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Re: Eerily Quiet in Here Given...

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Mon May 27, 2013 2:08 pm

Orenthal wrote:pusillanimous...

A word frequently used by Gibbons when describing the Eastern Empire.



Which outlasted the West, and almost reconquered it under Justinian.
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Re: Eerily Quiet in Here Given...

Unread postby peeker643 » Mon May 27, 2013 2:42 pm

motherscratcher wrote:
peeker643 wrote:
mattvan1 wrote:
motherscratcher wrote:You guys can bust BPs balls all you want, but there was a lot of truth in there.


I read some contrived, albeit well articulated, truths based on a particular POV, but lumping Afganistan and Iraq in the same let's scapegoat the US bucket is simply distorting facts to fit an agenda.


Meh... doesn't matter given it's an agenda Moscratch is more than willing to prescribe to.

BP wants to ignore the overwhelming smell of shit in his own yard to tell you to clean up after your dog.

He's the murdering, rapist father surprised and appalled that is son has just been arrested for assault.


Yeah, well "A lot of truth in there" was the wrong way to put it. I'm not prescribing to any agenda, especially not the ones where BP apparently comes to at meetings where the Tyler hands you a tinfoil hat as you walk through the door. I don't pretend to grasp these issues nearly well enough to have some sort of informed opinion on the matter, and that's why I generally stay out of these threads. I do like reading the posts of guys like Dan and JB who obviously do know what the fuck they're talking about.

What I was referring to in BPs post was mainly everyone's proclivity to label anyone that has died with a uniform on as a hero. What happened to that English soldier was awful and tragic, but I'm not sure being in the wrong place at the wrong time makes him a hero. Not any more than anyone else who has selflessly served should be called a hero. But maybe they should, And that's fine if you prescribe to that definition of hero in a Big Hall sort of way. Anyone who has served has done more than anything I've ever done in my mostly meaningless existence. I just think that the soldier dying is sad, but if there was a hero there it's that woman who sat there and talked to the lunatic until the cops got there.

But the reaction to BPs post was predictable, without even reading it. So don't go lumping me in with some far left fascist anti-America agenda because of a one sentence post and a history supporting gun control in a different thread.


The issue isn't whether or not everyone that dies in a uniform is a hero. That's not the question. And while I agree that those in uniform do more than you and I do on a daily basis, to me that's akin to calling every ball player a 'star'.

That BP diatribe was yet another way of turning the attention away from the actual issue of problems in his own back yard to another favorite past time of his, which is whining like the gash he is.

The issue is the despicable treatment of Muslims in his country. There was no plane involved but what of the mosques being bombed and lit afire? Where is his holier than thou rant about the EDL and the people responsible for desecrating a peaceful place of worship.

Instead he wants to whine about the imperialist Americans and their crusade for oil all the while ignoring his own country's proud history of imperialism and enslavement and concentration camps and genocide.

Again, there's plenty of shit in his own yard to clean up before he pokes his face over the fence to pass judgment on others. And if he has an issue with US presence in other lands he's exactly what I said he was: a hypocrite and a coward.

ETA: he's free to respond in any manner he prefers. I am not banning someone from disagreeing with me and never will. Regardless of how they choose to do so. I understand in opening this can of worms what that entails. BP enjoys and contributes to the Indians threads and that's all well and good and he's welcome to contribute here and there.
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Re: Eerily Quiet in Here Given...

Unread postby motherscratcher » Mon May 27, 2013 2:47 pm

peeker643 wrote:
motherscratcher wrote:
peeker643 wrote:
mattvan1 wrote:
motherscratcher wrote:You guys can bust BPs balls all you want, but there was a lot of truth in there.


I read some contrived, albeit well articulated, truths based on a particular POV, but lumping Afganistan and Iraq in the same let's scapegoat the US bucket is simply distorting facts to fit an agenda.


Meh... doesn't matter given it's an agenda Moscratch is more than willing to prescribe to.

BP wants to ignore the overwhelming smell of shit in his own yard to tell you to clean up after your dog.

He's the murdering, rapist father surprised and appalled that is son has just been arrested for assault.


Yeah, well "A lot of truth in there" was the wrong way to put it. I'm not prescribing to any agenda, especially not the ones where BP apparently comes to at meetings where the Tyler hands you a tinfoil hat as you walk through the door. I don't pretend to grasp these issues nearly well enough to have some sort of informed opinion on the matter, and that's why I generally stay out of these threads. I do like reading the posts of guys like Dan and JB who obviously do know what the fuck they're talking about.

What I was referring to in BPs post was mainly everyone's proclivity to label anyone that has died with a uniform on as a hero. What happened to that English soldier was awful and tragic, but I'm not sure being in the wrong place at the wrong time makes him a hero. Not any more than anyone else who has selflessly served should be called a hero. But maybe they should, And that's fine if you prescribe to that definition of hero in a Big Hall sort of way. Anyone who has served has done more than anything I've ever done in my mostly meaningless existence. I just think that the soldier dying is sad, but if there was a hero there it's that woman who sat there and talked to the lunatic until the cops got there.

But the reaction to BPs post was predictable, without even reading it. So don't go lumping me in with some far left fascist anti-America agenda because of a one sentence post and a history supporting gun control in a different thread.


The issue isn't whether or not everyone that dies in a uniform is a hero. That's not the question. And while I agree that those in uniform do more than you and I do on a daily basis, to me that's akin to calling every ball player a 'star'.

That BP diatribe was yet another way of turning the attention away from the actual issue of problems in his own back yard to another favorite past time of his, which is whining like the gash he is.

The issue is the despicable treatment of Muslims in his country. There was no plane involved but what of the mosques being bombed and lit afire? Where is his holier than thou rant about the EDL and the people responsible for desecrating a peaceful place of worship.

Instead he wants to whine about the imperialist Americans and their crusade for oil all the while ignoring his own country's proud history of imperialism and enslavement and concentration camps and genocide.

Again, there's plenty of shit in his own yard to clean up before he pokes his face over the fence to pass judgment on others. And if he has an issue with US presence in other lands he's exactly what I said he was: a hypocrite and a coward.


Noted. Agreed. And that's why any time a post in one of these political threads it's against my better judgment. But the night and time of my post might explain that a bit.
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Re: Eerily Quiet in Here Given...

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Mon May 27, 2013 2:50 pm

Watching you moonwalk back an innocuous comment is pretty funny.
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Re: Eerily Quiet in Here Given...

Unread postby motherscratcher » Mon May 27, 2013 2:53 pm

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:Watching you moonwalk back an innocuous comment is pretty funny.


I know, right? I'm such a vag, lol.
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Re: Eerily Quiet in Here Given...

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Mon May 27, 2013 3:59 pm

YahooFanChicago wrote:Honest question. Do you think if Uberman showed up tomorrow that people would embrace him or her?

I may be overly synical but the societies I have lived in the masses tend to enjoy tearing down icons. Someone or something gets too successful and people look for the flaws and root for failure.

The established religious, politcal and military leaders also probably wouldn't feel too good about a "god-like" uberman taking their power.

Then again, maybe I just don't understand Nietzsche's concept--this is quite posssible.


Have you read the history of...

I don't know....

The world?

The democratic history is a brief stint (call it a fart) in humanity's existence and it has had to fight off powerful men that controlled their own regions at least every 25 years.

Man wants to bow. We always have and always will.

If the new boss is pretty enough and such.
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Re: Eerily Quiet in Here Given...

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Mon May 27, 2013 4:39 pm

Man wants to bow. We always have and always will.


You sound like Loki from The Avengers movie.
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Re: Eerily Quiet in Here Given...

Unread postby Orenthal » Mon May 27, 2013 6:42 pm

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:
Orenthal wrote:pusillanimous...

A word frequently used by Gibbons when describing the Eastern Empire.



Which outlasted the West, and almost reconquered it under Justinian.


This was mostly after Justinian and his generals, Belisarius and Narses. Once the empire stopped imposing its will.
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Re: Eerily Quiet in Here Given...

Unread postby YahooFanChicago » Tue May 28, 2013 7:09 am

e0y2e3 wrote:
YahooFanChicago wrote:Honest question. Do you think if Uberman showed up tomorrow that people would embrace him or her? .


Have you read the history of...

I don't know....

The world?

The democratic history is a brief stint (call it a fart) in humanity's existence and it has had to fight off powerful men that controlled their own regions at least every 25 years.

Man wants to bow. We always have and always will.

If the new boss is pretty enough and such.


Well, I read some magazines, a few comic books, the sports page and the book called "A Short History of Nearly Everything" by Bill Bryson.

I recommend it highly. You can learn all kind of great and useless facts. One of the best is about this Columbus born genius inventor who was highly celebrated for his revolutionary inventions - leaded gasoline, CFC's and PCB's (not the circuit boards but a very dangerous, toxic chlorinated oil). One well-meaning genius inventor unintentionally cost the world billions in enviornmental damages and led the premature death and serious injury of many production workers who helped produce and use his inventions.

There are all kind of interesting historical facts like this in the book..definitely worth reading.

Nothing I can remember in there about Uberman or bowing but I know where you are coming from and I had high hopes for Rattail, MotherScratcher, McCreek, Lebron, Dan Gilbert, Mike Brown, Jimmay Haslem and Pros. So far no sign of Uberman just yet though.






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Re: Eerily Quiet in Here Given...

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Tue May 28, 2013 7:53 am

YahooFanChicago wrote:Well, I read some magazines, a few comic books


What comics do you read?
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Re: Eerily Quiet in Here Given...

Unread postby danwismar » Tue May 28, 2013 12:33 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:The democratic history is a brief stint (call it a fart) in humanity's existence and it has had to fight off powerful men that controlled their own regions at least every 25 years.

Man wants to bow. We always have and always will.

If the new boss is pretty enough and such.


So true, e0.

Man's default condition through most of human history is one of poverty and life under tyranny. This little blip...this 250 year experiment with freedom (and the accompanying prosperity...it ain't a coincidence) is so fucking fragile, and it is always in peril from without and within. When we give away individual liberties to the state, we never get them back. We started this experiment because we as Americans didn't want to bow. Now a lot of Americans do.
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Re: Eerily Quiet in Here Given...

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Tue May 28, 2013 1:16 pm

Might I ask, with no snark intended, what exactly are we bowing to?
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Re: Eerily Quiet in Here Given...

Unread postby danwismar » Tue May 28, 2013 3:43 pm

Bowing to....

...the nanny state instead of self-reliance...

political correctness instead of free expression...

corporatism, crony capitalism, and hyper-regulation over free markets...

the UN and international law over national sovereignty and the Constitution...

Google Glasses over personal privacy....

a predatory IRS over property rights....

generally speaking...statism/collectivism over individual liberty
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Re: Eerily Quiet in Here Given...

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Tue May 28, 2013 4:23 pm

So we have less liberty now, as opposed to say, 10 years ago?
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Re: Eerily Quiet in Here Given...

Unread postby YahooFanChicago » Wed May 29, 2013 2:56 am

Very interesting news stories recently in the Asian press about the US looming energy independence associated with shale oil/fracking and the impact that will have on the World's geopolitical situation.

One recurring theme is that as the US becomes less and less dependent on the middle east for crude oil that the US will gradually step-down its investment and focus in the middle east. The Chinese will become the biggest customer for middle east oil and they will increasingly need to fill the void in terms of stability and keeping the strait of Hormuz open. One article in the Straits Times mentioned that the Chinese are totally unprepared for this in terms of experienced diplomats who speak arabic and who understand the Middle East and Northern Africa. Also mentioned that China has been playing "all sides of the fence" - taking advantage of the US policies there while also criticizing them to gain local favor with the Saudi-led faction and the Iranian lead Shiites. The article also indicated that China will have to ultimately chose between the Saudi/Sunnis and Iranian/Shia factions.

I guess time will tell if this scenario plays out. How nice would it be to gradually unwind our involvement in that region and force China to have to be the local enforecement cop in order to maintain their oil supply.
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Re: Eerily Quiet in Here Given...

Unread postby googleeph2 » Wed May 29, 2013 7:43 am

YFC:
If/when the US becomes less dependent upon the Middle East (my BS detector is up on those Asian reports), will there be less demand for crude oil? Will it become a lot less expensive, or will emerging nations keep demand up?
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Re: Eerily Quiet in Here Given...

Unread postby danwismar » Wed May 29, 2013 9:37 am

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:So we have less liberty now, as opposed to say, 10 years ago?


I don't think there's any doubt about it. Health care is the most obvious example, but an administration with an astonishing willingness to abuse power by using the supposedly nonpartisan institutions of government to harass political enemies is another.

Amid all the talk of Obama abuses in the last couple weeks, another assault on free speech went almost unnoticed....the mandate from the Feds for speech codes on college campuses...forcing schools (at the risk of losing Fed money, Stafford grants, etc) to adopt an unbelievably broad definition of sexual harassment, which is certainly in violation of the 1st Amdmt., but it will have to go to the courts to get it thrown out. In the meantime, lawyers make money, and a kid can't look funny at a member of the opposite sex without potentially having his life ruined...

http://thefire.org/article/15767.html

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Re: Eerily Quiet in Here Given...

Unread postby jb » Wed May 29, 2013 9:54 am

danwismar wrote:
generally speaking...statism/collectivism over individual liberty



Danny, I am staying HARD between the navigational beacons. There's hot buttons here where I won't alow to be pressed. So I'd like to keep this all intellectual and sorts or I can't play. Deal?

So I sincerely ask: how does getting embroiled in over-active international disputes that are pretty much related to national pride (e.g. Israel is our ally due to common principles) or overreacting to overblown threats (we agree we will never be bowing to Mecca 5 x a day) more than real politik self-interest take us closer to individual liberties and away from the statism and all the other forces you lament against?

Woldn't this tack be the polar opposite or liberty and independance? Didn't George warn us against this stuff? Is he not a FF?
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Re: Eerily Quiet in Here Given...

Unread postby jb » Wed May 29, 2013 9:56 am

YahooFanChicago wrote:Very interesting news stories recently in the Asian press about the US looming energy independence associated with shale oil/fracking and the impact that will have on the World's geopolitical situation.

One recurring theme is that as the US becomes less and less dependent on the middle east for crude oil that the US will gradually step-down its investment and focus in the middle east. The Chinese will become the biggest customer for middle east oil and they will increasingly need to fill the void in terms of stability and keeping the strait of Hormuz open. One article in the Straits Times mentioned that the Chinese are totally unprepared for this in terms of experienced diplomats who speak arabic and who understand the Middle East and Northern Africa. Also mentioned that China has been playing "all sides of the fence" - taking advantage of the US policies there while also criticizing them to gain local favor with the Saudi-led faction and the Iranian lead Shiites. The article also indicated that China will have to ultimately chose between the Saudi/Sunnis and Iranian/Shia factions.

I guess time will tell if this scenario plays out. How nice would it be to gradually unwind our involvement in that region and force China to have to be the local enforecement cop in order to maintain their oil supply.



This is just the sort of strategic thinking that interests me. This is where I think wise leadership would take us, party affiliation and ideoological thinking be damned.

How does China play into the global energy maket vis a vis direct access? Are they on their own or do they buy from the general market?
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Re: Eerily Quiet in Here Given...

Unread postby FUDU » Wed May 29, 2013 9:59 am

In 15 years they will be buying oil from us. It's virtually inevitable at this point.
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Re: Eerily Quiet in Here Given...

Unread postby jb » Wed May 29, 2013 10:10 am

googleeph2 wrote:YFC:
If/when the US becomes less dependent upon the Middle East (my BS detector is up on those Asian reports), will there be less demand for crude oil? Will it become a lot less expensive, or will emerging nations keep demand up?



Who knows? I believe logic suggest the market will fluctuate short to medium term and long term eventually this is a finite resource but it remains foggy with the newer technology what the limits really are for the supply. What was once a set of common assumptions a decade ago are now obsolete. You wonder if this was the kind of stuff the major producers and Cheny spoke of behind closed doors in 2001.

The demand rises with developing nations and this is a finite resource. It can abate with competing non-carbon energy sources and who opens the taps to what level in ALL the oil producing nations, not just the ME. China is obviulsy a huge wild card here politically and economically.

They key to thinking here has nada to do with "energy independence" but how open the international crude oil and gas markets are, who supplies them, and who participates. This actual economic issue has moved into an era of post-nationalism. Policy has yet to catch up. The question is "why?" I think I know the answer. Follow the money. Follow the established multi-billion dollar interests that buy and sell our federal government. I believe these forces are restraining our self-interests and obfuscating the new economic realitics and running counter to our intelligent self-interest. They are also becoming dinosaurs in some ways.

The imperative for the US to be the world's oil cop is fading away quickly. Russian oil hitting the market, African non-aligned nations producing, and SA and NA production have changed the game the past decade. But we are still stuck in 1970's foregign policy and worrying about Isarael.

If Islamic forces hate christianity and western pluralism, they are gonna looooooooooove ChiCom statist athism and unchecked brutality. Chortle.

If we ever get smart and learn judo instead of brawling as policy, we could actually be danegrous again.
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Re: Eerily Quiet in Here Given...

Unread postby jb » Wed May 29, 2013 10:15 am

danwismar wrote:
Cerebral_DownTime wrote:So we have less liberty now, as opposed to say, 10 years ago?


I don't think there's any doubt about it. Health care is the most obvious example, but an administration with an astonishing willingness to abuse power by using the supposedly nonpartisan institutions of government to harass political enemies is another.

Amid all the talk of Obama abuses in the last couple weeks, another assault on free speech went almost unnoticed....the mandate from the Feds for speech codes on college campuses...forcing schools (at the risk of losing Fed money, Stafford grants, etc) to adopt an unbelievably broad definition of sexual harassment, which is certainly in violation of the 1st Amdmt., but it will have to go to the courts to get it thrown out. In the meantime, lawyers make money, and a kid can't look funny at a member of the opposite sex without potentially having his life ruined...

http://thefire.org/article/15767.html

Excuse me, I'm going to go make sure my taxes are in order....



Dan - re: health care implimentation. Have you been following the opening rounds of pricing and availability with the states that have adopted the open market exchanges of Dole-Romney-Obama care without opposition? So far, the deregulation of offering insurance to create an open market Bob Dole envisioned in 1996 appears to be working pretty well with costs.
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Re: Eerily Quiet in Here Given...

Unread postby jb » Wed May 29, 2013 10:24 am

danwismar wrote:
Cerebral_DownTime wrote:So we have less liberty now, as opposed to say, 10 years ago?


I don't think there's any doubt about it. Health care is the most obvious example, but an administration with an astonishing willingness to abuse power by using the supposedly nonpartisan institutions of government to harass political enemies is another.

Amid all the talk of Obama abuses in the last couple weeks, another assault on free speech went almost unnoticed....the mandate from the Feds for speech codes on college campuses...forcing schools (at the risk of losing Fed money, Stafford grants, etc) to adopt an unbelievably broad definition of sexual harassment, which is certainly in violation of the 1st Amdmt., but it will have to go to the courts to get it thrown out. In the meantime, lawyers make money, and a kid can't look funny at a member of the opposite sex without potentially having his life ruined...

http://thefire.org/article/15767.html

Excuse me, I'm going to go make sure my taxes are in order....



Is there anything concrete and in particular that you, Dan Wismer, as an individual, did in 2003 in the W adminstration that is related to a personal liberty that you are no longer allowed to do? I'm trying to think of something and I can't. I can think of liberties that are more open.

I think weed is probably easier to snoke in many places. Gays can get married and have the same liberties as straights. I can buy banana clips that could take down a VC brigade of zombies when there used to be a ban on assault weapons. None apply to me tho.

Edit - I forgot to add that I can pretty much shoot off fireworks with impugnity now, butthat may be more of a local MV sort of thing. So I got THAT going for me, which is nisch.


My kids had to ride in the back seat ujntil they were 12 and I thought that was nanny-state-ist, but that's a state law. I was thinking of joining a militia over that one.... ;-)
Last edited by jb on Wed May 29, 2013 11:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Eerily Quiet in Here Given...

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Wed May 29, 2013 10:40 am

Where Dan fails at understanding my point is the difficult relationship that exists between individual rights, inherent rights (things like... I don't know.... health care) and respect for the rights of others.

Anytime something like political correctness is mentioned when we as a nation still champion racism and bigotry there is a serious lack of understanding. The point of uberman is to escape all of the physical and mental restraints that have ruined our society, a point that was ignored by Dan's response.
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Re: Eerily Quiet in Here Given...

Unread postby jb » Wed May 29, 2013 10:43 am

e0y2e3 wrote:Where Dan fails at understanding my point is the difficult relationship that exists between individual rights, inherent rights (things like... I don't know.... health care) and respect for the rights of others.

Anytime something like political correctness is mentioned when we as a nation still champion racism and bigotry there is a serious lack of understanding. The point of uberman is to escape all of the physical and mental restraints that have ruined our society, a point that was ignored by Dan's response.



All yah gotta do is read "Beyond Good and Evil". It's all laid out there for better or worse. In absolute reductionim: personal ethics > external institutional morals.
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Re: Eerily Quiet in Here Given...

Unread postby danwismar » Wed May 29, 2013 11:42 am

e0y2e3 wrote:Where Dan fails at understanding my point is the difficult relationship that exists between individual rights, inherent rights (things like... I don't know.... health care) and respect for the rights of others.

Anytime something like political correctness is mentioned when we as a nation still champion racism and bigotry there is a serious lack of understanding. The point of uberman is to escape all of the physical and mental restraints that have ruined our society, a point that was ignored by Dan's response.


"we as a nation still champion racism and bigotry"

We do? We champion it as a nation? Really? Name another nation or society in the history of the planet with a more successful, more equal, less racist multi-ethnic, multi-racial society.

Sorry, but the concept of "political correctness" is, first, an oxymoron...(like "settled science") It is a debate-stifiling notion...one that discourages the expression of obvious truths and obviates needed debates, rationalized by the explanation that we dare not give offense to anyone. It flies in the face of free expression.

Defining one's own political position as "correct" is no different than one group defining their own agenda as "progressive", and thus anyone opposing it is against "progress". It's ridiculous.

I also fail to see how I have neglected a consideration of "the rights of others" in any way. Anyone who opposed throwing the baby out with the bathwater and radically restructuring the entire health care enterprise in order to try to put a dent in the population of the uninsured is somehow against what you call "the inherent right" to health care. Could you distort the position of Obamacare opponents any more severely?

We have had for many years a healthcare insurance option for the poor and/or otherwise uninsured...it's called Medicaid, and it is a grossly inefficient and corrupted system that is widely hated by doctors, providers and patients alike. Obamacare greatly expands it. Awesome.

(The majority of the population opposes O-Care, BTW...does "deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed" mean anything to you?)
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Re: Eerily Quiet in Here Given...

Unread postby danwismar » Wed May 29, 2013 12:06 pm

jb wrote:Is there anything concrete and in particular that you, Dan Wismer, as an individual, did in 2003 in the W adminstration that is related to a personal liberty that you are no longer allowed to do? I'm trying to think of something and I can't.


Well, for starters, I can't contribute to a Republican political campaign with the assurance that I won't be targeted by the IRS for audit....or apply for tax exempt status as a 501(c)4 with the assurances I won't have EPA, IRS, FHA, and whomever else out to harass my ass for being a conservative...and as a result violating my right to "petition the government for redress of my grievances", and voice my opinion in the form of political advocacy.

I am not permitted to but a health insurance plan that suits my needs...in my case, a high deductible plan under which I agree to pay the first $1500-3000 out of pocket in return for a lower monthly premium. Obamacare will make those plans obsolete (along with nearly all HSA's and other individual policies) if they succeed in full implementation of the program... As it stands now, my premium has gone up 30% in the two years since O-Care passed...Anthem's preparation for the road ahead.

And yes, jb...I have followed closely the early O-Care implementation. And no one...even the Democrats are even pretending any more that it is going to slow the rise in HC costs. DEm senators are referring to it as a "trainwreck". Good times.

This isn't a partisan issue, BTW...outside of the discussion of the astonishing double standard at work in the media...Here's Jonathan Turley...a Democrat and a staunch liberal talking about the Holder DOJ in a column titled "Fire Holder":

http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2 ... n/2367713/

In the end, Holder was the best witness against his continuing in office. His insistence that he did nothing was a telling moment. The attorney general has done little in his tenure to protect civil liberties or the free press. Rather, Holder has supervised a comprehensive erosion of privacy rights, press freedom and due process. This ignoble legacy was made possible by Democrats who would look at their shoes whenever the Obama administration was accused of constitutional abuses.

When I talk about "bowing", to use Lee's word, I'm talking about those liberals "looking at their shoes" where Obama's abuses of power are concerned.

Jonah Goldberg calls the "if Bush did this" argument "the lowest form of punditry"...but that doesn't mean it isn't apt at this moment. Nixon was vilified (rightly) for even maintaining an "enemies list". A GOP administration would already be bracing for the articles of impeachment if the same shit were going on under them.
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Re: Eerily Quiet in Here Given...

Unread postby jb » Wed May 29, 2013 12:06 pm

danwismar wrote:

We have had for many years a healthcare insurance option for the poor and/or otherwise uninsured...it's called Medicaid, and it is a grossly inefficient and corrupted system that is widely hated by doctors, providers and patients alike. Obamacare greatly expands it. Awesome.

(The majority of the population opposes O-Care, BTW...does "deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed" mean anything to you?)



On Item One. This is part of a far bigger context dan. Pu the guns in the holsters and ask yourself this question: how does insurance "work" in a free-maret economy? What has to be in place for a private-based insurance nmodel to function?

Now ask yourself the same for a private market-based health car system.

On the second point, c'mon man. We have had a republican system of government designed by the federalists since about 1781. Did you see the polls on the Manchan-Toomey bill? Is it law? Should that be used to change the Constitution? I don't think so. Sometimes that's how it works. The 2010 election happened. That was the opportunity for the electorate to make a change. It didn't happen. In was an electoral landslide to the contrary. That's how the Constitution you say you love works.

So are you in favor of the Constitution only when it serves your political wishes or all of the time?
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Re: Eerily Quiet in Here Given...

Unread postby HoodooMan » Wed May 29, 2013 12:15 pm

danwismar wrote:Well, for starters, I can't contribute to a Republican political campaign with the assurance that I won't be targeted by the IRS for audit....


Did this actually happen?

Not to you, I mean, but to anyone?
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Re: Eerily Quiet in Here Given...

Unread postby FUDU » Wed May 29, 2013 12:16 pm

Working pretty well with costs JB?

Um, my health care has gone up over 25% in two years, a rate increase that had not been seen prior to Obamacare. It's in the name of preparation for things to come, so we're told. Want to talk about exemptions?

But when do we get to the part about HC being an inherent right? When does HC become an inherent right, the day someobyd up and decides to not take some responsibility for their health, or the day the piper comes calling and they need HC that amounts to 5 years of their prime working income?
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Re: Eerily Quiet in Here Given...

Unread postby jb » Wed May 29, 2013 12:22 pm

danwismar wrote:
jb wrote:Is there anything concrete and in particular that you, Dan Wismer, as an individual, did in 2003 in the W adminstration that is related to a personal liberty that you are no longer allowed to do? I'm trying to think of something and I can't.


Well, for starters, I can't contribute to a Republican political campaign with the assurance that I won't be targeted by the IRS for audit....or apply for tax exempt status as a 501(c)4 with the assurances I won't have EPA, IRS, FHA, and whomever else out to harass my ass for being a conservative...and as a result violating my right to "petition the government for redress of my grievances", and voice my opinion in the form of political advocacy.

I am not permitted to but a health insurance plan that suits my needs...in my case, a high deductible plan under which I agree to pay the first $1500-3000 out of pocket in return for a lower monthly premium. Obamacare will make those plans obsolete (along with nearly all HSA's and other individual policies) if they succeed in full implementation of the program... As it stands now, my premium has gone up 30% in the two years since O-Care passed...Anthem's preparation for the road ahead.

And yes, jb...I have followed closely the early O-Care implementation. And no one...even the Democrats are even pretending any more that it is going to slow the rise in HC costs. DEm senators are referring to it as a "trainwreck". Good times.

This isn't a partisan issue, BTW...outside of the discussion of the astonishing double standard at work in the media...Here's Jonathan Turley...a Democrat and a staunch liberal talking about the Holder DOJ in a column titled "Fire Holder":

http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2 ... n/2367713/

In the end, Holder was the best witness against his continuing in office. His insistence that he did nothing was a telling moment. The attorney general has done little in his tenure to protect civil liberties or the free press. Rather, Holder has supervised a comprehensive erosion of privacy rights, press freedom and due process. This ignoble legacy was made possible by Democrats who would look at their shoes whenever the Obama administration was accused of constitutional abuses.

When I talk about "bowing", to use Lee's word, I'm talking about those liberals "looking at their shoes" where Obama's abuses of power are concerned.

Jonah Goldberg calls the "if Bush did this" argument "the lowest form of punditry"...but that doesn't mean it isn't apt at this moment. Nixon was vilified (rightly) for even maintaining an "enemies list". A GOP administration would already be bracing for the articles of impeachment if the same shit were going on under them.



If the investigations uncover partisanship in the IRS to the point where a federal government apparatus was used to suppress political opposition then those who knew and didn't stop it should all be gone, and that includes impeachement of the POTUS. Period. That is the sacred line of demarcation in our government.

If a judge granted any power to seize AP reporters private materials unlawfully or if that were done without sufficient warrent then all involved ought to be terminated and / or impeached.

I could care less if that is Dick Nixon as a GOP POTUS or barack Obama as a Dem POTUS.

I hope that doesn't equivacate.

On topic: So you list of gross civil liberties denied and suppressed to Dan Wismer in the last 10 years include:

a) a completely subjective and paranoid fear of something that hasn't ocurred; and b) you want a product that in the future may not be on the market.

I want a Pepsi Free! I love the taste of a lemon twist in my diet Pepsi! I"M OPPRESSED!!!!

The IRS audited me and made me send in receipts and a form for my new door and wndows last year. Where's my 1st Ammendement rights?

Neither of these things have actually happened so they don't even answer the darn question. One won't happen and the other is a loss of a consumer product. Happens all the time.

C'mon Dan. You can do better.Can't you? Or is this where you want to drive off the highway of civil disocurse to the backraods of lunatic fringe banter?

I ask again hoping for a credivble answer. What civil liberty has been denied you in reality in the last decade? What oppression? What constitutional right lost? Name one.

Did you try to travel inside the US and were you denied becasue your papers were revoked?

Did the Stansi show up at your door based ona post you made?

Are you a non-felon denied the right to bear arms?

Were you turned away at a polling place becasue you couldn't read the lirteracy test questions? In Greek?

Did the party show up at your door and take your home and ship you off to a collective farm for aq holiday in Cambodia?

Tell me what's actually happened to you, Dan Wismer, in the past decade the government actually did in reality to your liberties guaranteed by the US Constitution.
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Re: Eerily Quiet in Here Given...

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Wed May 29, 2013 12:23 pm

danwismar wrote:
e0y2e3 wrote:Where Dan fails at understanding my point is the difficult relationship that exists between individual rights, inherent rights (things like... I don't know.... health care) and respect for the rights of others.

Anytime something like political correctness is mentioned when we as a nation still champion racism and bigotry there is a serious lack of understanding. The point of uberman is to escape all of the physical and mental restraints that have ruined our society, a point that was ignored by Dan's response.


"we as a nation still champion racism and bigotry"

We do? We champion it as a nation? Really? Name another nation or society in the history of the planet with a more successful, more equal, less racist multi-ethnic, multi-racial society.

Sorry, but the concept of "political correctness" is, first, an oxymoron...(like "settled science") It is a debate-stifiling notion...one that discourages the expression of obvious truths and obviates needed debates, rationalized by the explanation that we dare not give offense to anyone. It flies in the face of free expression.

Defining one's own political position as "correct" is no different than one group defining their own agenda as "progressive", and thus anyone opposing it is against "progress". It's ridiculous.

I also fail to see how I have neglected a consideration of "the rights of others" in any way. Anyone who opposed throwing the baby out with the bathwater and radically restructuring the entire health care enterprise in order to try to put a dent in the population of the uninsured is somehow against what you call "the inherent right" to health care. Could you distort the position of Obamacare opponents any more severely?

We have had for many years a healthcare insurance option for the poor and/or otherwise uninsured...it's called Medicaid, and it is a grossly inefficient and corrupted system that is widely hated by doctors, providers and patients alike. Obamacare greatly expands it. Awesome.

(The majority of the population opposes O-Care, BTW...does "deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed" mean anything to you?)


See, the problem here is that I am writing to a non-party defined ideal whereas you are taking up attacking Obamacare and proclaiming things like a lot of people living in the same country means bigotry doesn't still win the day.

The age old problem of speaking in terms of philosophical ideals to people unable to see past the present myopics.

We're just speaking on entirely different planes Dan, to each his own.
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Re: Eerily Quiet in Here Given...

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Wed May 29, 2013 12:23 pm

HoodooMan wrote:
danwismar wrote:Well, for starters, I can't contribute to a Republican political campaign with the assurance that I won't be targeted by the IRS for audit....


Did this actually happen?

Not to you, I mean, but to anyone?


Shhhhhh
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Re: Eerily Quiet in Here Given...

Unread postby jb » Wed May 29, 2013 12:25 pm

FUDU wrote:Working pretty well with costs JB?

Um, my health care has gone up over 25% in two years, a rate increase that had not been seen prior to Obamacare. It's in the name of preparation for things to come, so we're told. Want to talk about exemptions?

But when do we get to the part about HC being an inherent right? When does HC become an inherent right, the day someobyd up and decides to not take some responsibility for their health, or the day the piper comes calling and they need HC that amounts to 5 years of their prime working income?



Theye were going up on a spiral anyway, FUDU. Pre-regulation it was natural that the market would grab it's last chance of unregulated profit. Is what it is.

I am talking not of this, not of philosophy, but of the actual, real initial costs of the plans being offered in the states that opted to move agrressively into the arena of the exchanges, a free market idea first proposed by Bob Dole. I am reading some results are promising. Wondering if that is on base or there is something lese happening.
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Re: Eerily Quiet in Here Given...

Unread postby danwismar » Wed May 29, 2013 12:28 pm

jb wrote: Did you see the polls on the Manchan-Toomey bill? Is it law? Should that be used to change the Constitution? I don't think so. Sometimes that's how it works. The 2010 election happened. That was the opportunity for the electorate to make a change. It didn't happen. In was an electoral landslide to the contrary. That's how the Constitution you say you love works.

So are you in favor of the Constitution only when it serves your political wishes or all of the time?


What I saw was the poll results from a sample of a couple hundred random Americans asked for their answer to a vaguely-worded question about the idea of expanded background checks. I may be saying more than I should here...but I don't own a gun...never in 60 years of life have I lived under the same roof with one. So I don't feel like I have a dog in this fight, really, outside of my respect for the 2nd Amendment

Manchin-Toomey was a typical outgrowth of the popular emotion that politicians respond to after a tragedy like Sandy Hook. It goes something like this..."We MUST do something...This is something...Therefore we must do this." Forget that the bill wouldn't have had any effect on Sandy Hook had it been in place earlier...or that all a buyer and seller have to do to avoid the check at a gun show is walk to the parking lot and conduct their transaction over the hood of their car. It was something.

As for the "consent of the governed" thing, my only point is that we have never had such a broad and far-reaching piece of legislation become law without having, at a bare minimum, majority popular, and at least some bipartisan support. O-care never had either, and still doesn't.
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Re: Eerily Quiet in Here Given...

Unread postby HoodooMan » Wed May 29, 2013 12:38 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:
HoodooMan wrote:
danwismar wrote:Well, for starters, I can't contribute to a Republican political campaign with the assurance that I won't be targeted by the IRS for audit....


Did this actually happen?

Not to you, I mean, but to anyone?


Shhhhhh


It wasn't a rhetorical question, actually. I stopped following the IRS story when I decided it sounded like the IRS was basically guilty of something analogous to racial profiling. Really, really stupid and unnecessary on their part, but without further evidence, not anything politically motivated, nor (much worse) a part of some grand scheme of this Admin to target political enemies.

Is this still where we're at? Can I stop paying attention again?
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Re: Eerily Quiet in Here Given...

Unread postby danwismar » Wed May 29, 2013 12:41 pm

jb wrote:
If the investigations uncover partisanship in the IRS to the point where a federal government apparatus was used to suppress political opposition then those who knew and didn't stop it should all be gone, and that includes impeachement of the POTUS. Period. That is the sacred line of demarcation in our government.

If a judge granted any power to seize AP reporters private materials unlawfully or if that were done without sufficient warrent then all involved ought to be terminated and / or impeached.

I could care less if that is Dick Nixon as a GOP POTUS or barack Obama as a Dem POTUS.

I hope that doesn't equivacate.


Nope, no equivocating there....Good to hear you say all these things. More in a minute on who was audited...harassed, etc.

You must have missed my example of the restriction on the free exercise of my formerly-permitted right to an economic arrangement to purchase health care insurance from a provider of my choosing, on terms to our mutual benefit. Maybe that's not jack-booted enough to qualify for you, but it is a limiting of my freedom.

And besides...if the constitutional rights of others...and the kinds of infringements on press freedom...free expression...political advocacy...privacy rights, etc. are not, at this very moment being visited on me personally with a knock on my door....that means I have no basis to voice my objections to them being visited on others (perhaps like-minded)?
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Re: Eerily Quiet in Here Given...

Unread postby jb » Wed May 29, 2013 12:47 pm

You must have missed my example of the restriction on the free exercise of my formerly-permitted right to an economic arrangement to purchase health care insurance from a provider of my choosing, on terms to our mutual benefit. Maybe that's not jack-booted enough to qualify for you, but it is a limiting of my freedom.


Dan, you lost a consumer product not a liberty. In 10 years bemoaning the seizure of our liberties thats it?

You have no more inherent constitutional right to your health insurance plan of choice than you did to use lead gasoline or Diazonon on your flowers. You may not like it. May not agree with it. But if we subscribe to a belief that our liberties are defined and guaranteed by our Constittion you still haven't provided a single example where your liberties have been infringed upon.
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Re: Eerily Quiet in Here Given...

Unread postby danwismar » Wed May 29, 2013 12:51 pm

Sorry, jb...my rights have been infringed if the organizations trying to articulate a conservative message with which I broadly agree were intimidated and harassed into silence, and their abilities to raise funds restricted by the abuses of the organs of government. 2012 was not a landslide.
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Re: Eerily Quiet in Here Given...

Unread postby FUDU » Wed May 29, 2013 12:59 pm

jb wrote:
FUDU wrote:Working pretty well with costs JB?

Um, my health care has gone up over 25% in two years, a rate increase that had not been seen prior to Obamacare. It's in the name of preparation for things to come, so we're told. Want to talk about exemptions?

But when do we get to the part about HC being an inherent right? When does HC become an inherent right, the day someobyd up and decides to not take some responsibility for their health, or the day the piper comes calling and they need HC that amounts to 5 years of their prime working income?



Theye were going up on a spiral anyway, FUDU. Pre-regulation it was natural that the market would grab it's last chance of unregulated profit. Is what it is.

I am talking not of this, not of philosophy, but of the actual, real initial costs of the plans being offered in the states that opted to move agrressively into the arena of the exchanges, a free market idea first proposed by Bob Dole. I am reading some results are promising. Wondering if that is on base or there is something lese happening.


I have no idea of the whys or whats of the initial launch of some plans, I only know what I (and others I know) have to fork over b/c of the new laws. No improvements in benefits for me, no increase in options (actually the real threat of a plan that works perfectly for me disappearing)...but b/c costs we're "spiraling" anyway let's just not worry too much about it? That's lazy, both in governing and one's civic duty to participate in the process of change.

EOD we never got to the bottom of the problem of why so many people were "uninsured".
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Re: Eerily Quiet in Here Given...

Unread postby jb » Wed May 29, 2013 1:01 pm

danwismar wrote:Sorry, jb...my rights have been infringed if the organizations trying to articulate a conservative message with which I broadly agree were intimidated and harassed into silence, and their abilities to raise funds restricted by the abuses of the organs of government. 2012 was not a landslide.



I'll send you a parka so you can make it through that Siberian winter in the Gulag...

THis appears to be my stop on the line when we go here. See yah on the next train.
Last edited by jb on Wed May 29, 2013 1:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Eerily Quiet in Here Given...

Unread postby jb » Wed May 29, 2013 1:02 pm

FUDU wrote:
jb wrote:
FUDU wrote:Working pretty well with costs JB?

Um, my health care has gone up over 25% in two years, a rate increase that had not been seen prior to Obamacare. It's in the name of preparation for things to come, so we're told. Want to talk about exemptions?

But when do we get to the part about HC being an inherent right? When does HC become an inherent right, the day someobyd up and decides to not take some responsibility for their health, or the day the piper comes calling and they need HC that amounts to 5 years of their prime working income?



Theye were going up on a spiral anyway, FUDU. Pre-regulation it was natural that the market would grab it's last chance of unregulated profit. Is what it is.

I am talking not of this, not of philosophy, but of the actual, real initial costs of the plans being offered in the states that opted to move agrressively into the arena of the exchanges, a free market idea first proposed by Bob Dole. I am reading some results are promising. Wondering if that is on base or there is something lese happening.


I have no idea of the whys or whats of the initial launch of some plans, I only know what I (and others I know) have to fork over b/c of the new laws. No improvements in benefits for me, no increase in options (actually the real threat of a plan that works perfectly for me disappearing)...but b/c costs we're "spiraling" anyway let's just not worry too much about it? That's lazy, both in governing and one's civic duty to participate in the process of change.

EOD we never got to the bottom of the problem of why so many people were "uninsured".



FUDI - Mine were rising 4 - 8% annum before the AHCA was a bill.
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Re: Eerily Quiet in Here Given...

Unread postby FUDU » Wed May 29, 2013 1:04 pm

Great, so over two years that's 8-16%.

Honest question, have you consistently had health insurance over the past 10-20 years?

If so, why?
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Re: Eerily Quiet in Here Given...

Unread postby jb » Wed May 29, 2013 1:07 pm

FUDU wrote:Great, so over two years that's 8-16%.

Honest question, have you consistently had health insurance over the past 10-20 years?

If so, why?



Yes.

From employers. For my family. For catastrophic events. A family member needed it this past year. We're not doing HSA's agian are we? I don't thread on what bores me. :-)
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Re: Eerily Quiet in Here Given...

Unread postby FUDU » Wed May 29, 2013 1:12 pm

Not about HSA's (a great plan for many people).

OK, so you play the game smart, get HI for the more common obvious reasons. I figured as such. Now, in the past and present, why do so many not do as you do? I'm not talking about the people who absolutely with no questions asked cannot.
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Re: Eerily Quiet in Here Given...

Unread postby danwismar » Wed May 29, 2013 1:31 pm

No, Hoodoo...probably not a good idea to stop paying attention just yet.

First...not lower-level employees in Cinci. Lois Lerner's (seriously ideological) fingerprints are all over this...from Washington...

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/3 ... na-johnson

And it really should take no more than the story of Catherine Engelbrecht, the Texas housewife who started 'True the Vote", to convince anyone of the political nature of what was going on...

http://www.nationalreview.com/node/348756

---

The Washington Post fact-checker with a bushel of Pinnochio's for Lois (I take the 5th) Lerner

https://avosapi.delicious.com/api/v1/po ... _blog.html

---

All one group needed to do after being thwarted for years, was change its name to use the word "Greenhouse", and they were promptly approved.

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2013/05 ... n-3-weeks/

political? Nah.

---

It's not just stiffing conservative sounding 501c4 applicants...it's leaking tax information of ...oh...say GOP presidential candidates, to Harry Reid...

or harassing groups who appear to support Israel...

or listening to some 13 Dem senators who were writing to IRS officials urging them to give these groups additional scrutiny...

...or forcing pro-life groups to promise not to protest at PP clinics (their constitutional right, of course) before they could be approved.

http://hotair.com/archives/2013/05/16/i ... exemption/

---

documenting the nine lies of Lois Lerner

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/3 ... williamson

--


Obama told OSU students to "reject those voices" warning of the potential for tyranny by the government. Just because the IRS employee who headed up the politicized harassment of conservative, pro-life, Israel-supporting and Catholic groups has, instead of being fired...been promoted to head up Obamacare enforcement, doesn't mean there's any cause for concern....

...so your dad needs a hip-replacement, huh? I see here you once donated to....

--

Then there's Frank VanderSloot...to supply a specific answer to Hoodoo's question...

A billionaire donor to the Romney campaign...While it's not unusual of course for a billionaire to be audited, he had never before been audited...until after a 2012 Obama campaign ad smeared him BY NAME, as one of a group of a "wealthy individuals with less than reputable records" (of course, without any substantiation, but really, isn't it enough that he donated to Republicans, for heaven's sake?) Within weeks, he was served with three separate audit notices...all of which he passed with flying colors. But that's not the point. There was never any probable cause to suggest he needed to be audited. It was Obama team intimidation of potential future donors, pure and simple. See what happens to people who donate to the bad guys?

http://dailycaller.com/2013/05/14/frank ... r-audited/

This Kim Strassel piece at WSJ, I think sums it up beautifully. Obama's rhetoric for five years now has painted the political opposition as the enemy of all that is good and right in progressiveland. He singles out people by name all the time to be shunned and (if you get the nod and the wink) persecuted, prosecuted and harassed by all good, decent Americans and organs of government.

He named VanderSloot specifically as a malign force in American electoral politics. It doesn't matter after that whether or not if he ordered him to be audited. The troops had their marching orders. This whole thing from the start has had a sort of "Who will rid me of this meddlesome priest" quality to it.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... 80800.html

Excerpting:

Mr. Obama didn't need to pick up the phone. All he needed to do was exactly what he did do, in full view, for three years: Publicly suggest that conservative political groups were engaged in nefarious deeds; publicly call out by name political opponents whom he'd like to see harassed; and publicly have his party pressure the IRS to take action.

Mr. Obama now professes shock and outrage that bureaucrats at the IRS did exactly what the president of the United States said was the right and honorable thing to do. "He put a target on our backs, and he's now going to blame the people who are shooting at us?" asks Idaho businessman and longtime Republican donor Frank VanderSloot.


Final thought: It is not as if this is an open question that is waiting for an answer...that is...were there political motivations driving IRS enforcement and consideration of 501c3 and 501c4 applications? Asked and answered. The IRS has admitted it, and apologized for it already...albeit in an attempt to get out in front of the scandal and avoid the backlash that was inevitably coming from the IG report.

Of course, they lied, and said it was the work of low-level folks in Cinci...a lie that was quickly blown out of the water...not by Fox news, but by NBC, and the NYT, and USA Today...and the WaPo, etc.

The Dems in the Senate will never allow a select committee to be appointed to get to the bottom of it...so we'll have to rely on oversight groups in the House.
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Re: Eerily Quiet in Here Given...

Unread postby HoodooMan » Wed May 29, 2013 1:55 pm

Final thought: It is not as if this is an open question that is waiting for an answer...that is...were there political motivations driving IRS enforcement and consideration of 501c3 and 501c4 applications? Asked and answered. The IRS has admitted it, and apologized for it already...


They admitted to political motivations? Or merely the filtering of applications by less than politically-neutral criteria?

Don't misunderstand me, I think both are wrong. But the gap between "Let's do what we can to suppress the political enemies of Barack Obama" and "These 501c4 applications are inherently sketchy, and we're seeing the number of them skyrocket leading up to the election. It feels like the sketchiness and skyrocketing numbers are more tied to conservative applicants, so let's filter them THIS way"--is pretty huge, IMO. The former calls for the jailing & impeaching of anyone who knew about it. The latter, maybe some dumbasses just need fired.

Kind of a similar difference, it seems to me, between law enforcement using racial profiling because they're evil racists and law enforcement using racial profiling because they're being lazy and stupid.
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