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Draft Grades

Unread postby OldDawg » Sun Apr 28, 2013 1:28 pm

Chris Burke of Sports Illustrated gave the Browns a D+, the lowest rating in this year's NFL draft

http://nfl.si.com/2013/04/28/2013-nfl-d ... ?eref=sihp

Nine other teams were either rated a C or a C+. There were no C- grades.

Ravens: A-
Bengals: B+
Steelers: B+

Cleveland Browns
A bit of an unusual draft for the Browns, who landed an impact defender in OLB Barkevious Mingo at No. 6 and then picked just once more (CB Leon McFadden) in the next 167 selections. Cleveland did pick up a third- and fourth-rounder in 2014. Plus, remember, the Browns traded in this year’s second-rounder to get WR Josh Gordon in the 2012 supplemental draft. That Gordon gamble paid off and the Browns will have lots of choices in 2014. Strictly in terms of the 2013 draft, though, there’s not much to go on here — slightly disappointing for a team hoping to make big strides.


Glad we're gaining ground.

What are some of the other grades out there? I am not an ESPN insider, so I don't have access to some of those ratings.
Last edited by OldDawg on Sun Apr 28, 2013 2:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Draft Grades

Unread postby OldDawg » Sun Apr 28, 2013 2:06 pm

Dawgs by nature references Kiper's draft grades:
http://www.dawgsbynature.com/2013/4/28/ ... browns-a-c

Cleveland Browns: C+ overall , (C for fulfilling needs, and a B- for getting good value)
Baltimore Ravens: A- overall (A- needs, B+ value)
Cincinnati Bengals: A- overall (B+ needs, A- value)
Pittsburgh Steelers: B overall (B+ needs, B value)

Summary: "I don't know if it's a good thing, per se, but the guy who will impact the Browns most in 2013 might not be the player they took at No. 6 overall. At No. 68 overall, they took Leon McFadden, a much-needed CB who knows how to operate on an island. As I look at the depth chart, I don't see a reason why McFadden can't break camp as the starter across from Joe Haden. That's not a small deal because it also maximizes Buster Skrine, who will be able to spend more time in the slot, where he's much better.

Now, that first pick was Barkevious Mingo, a player I'm at once infatuated with as a talent, but skeptical of because of what I considered production that didn't match up with his talent. Now, Mingo adds depth at outside linebacker, but he's going to need some developmental work because he played with his hand on the ground at LSU. After that, there isn't a lot here that you'll see in 2013.

Jamoris Slaughter could provide depth at safety. The lack of a second-round pick really hurt the Browns, who could have used a higher-rated guard -- though I do think Garrett Gilkey has the chance to start eventually -- and I thought would have been wise to add another inside linebacker. But Josh Gordon is developing and Davone Bess should provide Brandon Weeden with another solid target in the passing game. The hope is Mingo becomes a star, and McFadden can perform early. The good news is, both could happen."
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Re: Draft Grades

Unread postby OldDawg » Sun Apr 28, 2013 2:13 pm

Bleacher report rated the draft leadership teams:
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1620 ... all-32-gms

Ravens A-
Bengals B+
Browns A
Pittsburgh A

They give the Browns Management team bonus points for Gordon (did this regime draft him?) and for upgrading picks in 2014. Others didn't consider next year's value, only the immediate impact for 2013.

Though Mike Lombardi is the Cleveland Browns general manager, no draft pick could have been made without the assistance of CEO Joe Banner. The two are the latest decision-makers in Cleveland tasked with turning the franchise around.

Lombardi and Banner have said they want to build the team through the draft, but it's looking like they meant the 2014 draft, not 2013. In the first five rounds, they made just two picks—in Rounds 1 and 3—with their second (wisely) used to take receiver Josh Gordon in the 2012 supplemental draft and their Rounds 4 and 5 picks traded for picks in Rounds 3 and 4 in 2014.

In Round 1, the Browns got a premier speed pass-rusher in Barkevious Mingo and took a needed cornerback in Round 3, San Diego State's Leon McFadden.

Needs Met: First-round quality pass-rusher, cornerback, second-round 2013 wide receiver in 2012.

Value and Depth: The value the Browns got will be seen in 2014, when they add another third- and fourth-round pick to their arsenal in trade for fourth- and fifth-rounders in 2013.

Strong safety Jamoris Slaughter, taken in Round 6, is coming off a torn Achilles tendon but has special teams talent, and seventh-round defensive end Armonty Bryant is a top-100 talent with character issues that dragged his stock down.

Boom/Bust Potential: CB Leon McFadden, who appears better suited for the slot, may be starting on the outside with Joe Haden.


Then they separately rated the draft:
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1620 ... -each-team

Bengals A
Ravens B+
Pittsburgh C+
Browns C

I know the Browns needed a pass-rusher, but drafting LSU's Barkevious Mingo—a raw prospect who may never become a complete player—was a reach at No. 6 overall. Cornerback Leon McFadden is a good value pick at No. 68 overall. His size is concerning, but he simply makes plays. Notre Dame safety Jamoris Slaughter was also a nice value pick in the sixth round.
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Re: Draft Grades

Unread postby jerryroche » Sun Apr 28, 2013 2:24 pm

Based strictly on the personnel (talent + value) obtained through the draft (and not players obtained last year or through trade), anybody giving the Browns' draft a better grade than straight D is an idiot.

You and your best friend could've done a better job than Lum & Abner. And that's no exaggeration.
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Re: Draft Grades

Unread postby OldDawg » Sun Apr 28, 2013 2:29 pm

Sporting News
http://aol.sportingnews.com/nfl/story/2 ... ers-eagles

Steelers A
Bengals A-
Ravens B+
Browns D (worst in draft)

Cleveland Browns: For a young team with multiple issues, it's odd the Browns worked their way down to just five picks. LSU first-rounder Barkevious Mingo is a high-risk, high-reward edge pass rusher for their 3-4. They needed a corner for the outside, yet took one, San Diego State's Leon McFadden, better suited for the slot. The biggest head-scratcher was the fact Cleveland officials, not all in on Brandon Weeden, didn't at least take a chance on one of the quarterback prospects after most of them slid.
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Re: Draft Grades

Unread postby OldDawg » Sun Apr 28, 2013 2:33 pm

CBS Sports
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/blog ... rth-grades

Ravens A
Bengals A
Steelers B+
Browns C

Cleveland Browns

I understand the passion to attack the quarterback, but I wonder why the Browns elected to pay for Paul Kruger if they were going to draft Barkevious Mingo at No. 6 overall. Where does that put Jabaal Sheard, who was one of the team's better players a year ago? I love cornerback Leon McFadden's athleticism as well, but he's just 5-10. Frankly, I thought the Browns got their best value in the seventh round with intriguing developmental pass rusher Armonty Bryant and Garrett Gilkey, a developmental offensive lineman who impressed me at the Senior Bowl. Adding picks for the 2014 Draft helps what otherwise I thought was one of the least impressive draft classes. Grade: C
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Re: Draft Grades

Unread postby OldDawg » Sun Apr 28, 2013 2:49 pm

jerryroche wrote:Based strictly on the personnel (talent + value) obtained through the draft (and not players obtained last year or through trade), anybody giving the Browns' draft a better grade than straight D is an idiot.

You and your best friend could've done a better job than Lum & Abner. And that's no exaggeration.

I think we should assemble a team of TCF members for every draft and simply storm the Cleveland teams' war rooms, take over and do much better. Every. Single. Draft.
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Re: Draft Grades

Unread postby OldDawg » Sun Apr 28, 2013 2:56 pm

Fox Sports
http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/gallery/20 ... o=31720568

A panel of three "experts" rated the draft for Fox. The rating for each is listed.

Ravens A, A+, A
Pittsbugh B, A-, A
Bengals B, B, A
Browns B, C-, B+

Cleveland Browns Floyd Engel: (B) There is little not to love about what Mike Lombardi did, even the Barkevious Mingo gamble, which is the best part of this draft for them. They have a GM, a real-deal GM.Marvez: (C-) Outside LB Mingo provides some bark to Cleveland’s Dawg Pound, but the Browns added only one more player (San Diego State cornerback Leon McFadden) before Round Six. On the positive side, they secured extra third- and fourth-round choices in next year’s draft through trades and have already started reaping the dividends of using its 2013 second-round pick in last year’s supplemental draft on budding wide receiver Josh Gordon.Schrager: (B+) You can only do so much when you don’t have a second-round pick, and I think Cleveland brass is awfully happy with Gordon, essentially their second-round pick. Mingo will complement Paul Kruger well in Ray Horton’s 3-4. This was a productive draft for the long term.
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Re: Draft Grades

Unread postby Hikohadon » Sun Apr 28, 2013 3:14 pm

I give the draft an umlaut.
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Re: Draft Grades

Unread postby jb » Sun Apr 28, 2013 4:13 pm

Hikohadon wrote:I give the draft an umlaut.



For what?

Über ridiculously bad?

Peeps was like "oh you all hatas gotta give Lombardi a chance". In the words of Tony Montana to dead Frank, "Well lookatchu now."

In 5 years there's not gonna be on contributing player from this draft on the roster.
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Re: Draft Grades

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Sun Apr 28, 2013 5:18 pm

Not even Mingo?
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Re: Draft Grades

Unread postby Triple-S » Sun Apr 28, 2013 6:08 pm

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:Not even Mingo?


I think he has a shot. Just a lot of "ifs" with him. He'll be "okay", maybe even have a shot at one pro bowl, but he won't the be the elite/perennial pro bowler/potential HOFer type.

I think in the end, Jarvis Jones will be the better player, and we'll be kicking ourselves for it. Such is life as a Browns fan.
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Re: Draft Grades

Unread postby comish » Sun Apr 28, 2013 7:17 pm

I thought we agreed last year that it was stupid to grade drafts until at least a year later.
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Re: Draft Grades

Unread postby bookelly » Sun Apr 28, 2013 8:00 pm

If the plan is to tank for Johnny Football, and I think it is...then this draft is an A+.

Let's see:
-new offense with an unproven and low-IQ QB
-giant holes at G and TE
-a fleet of talented but young WR augmented by oft injured players
-a switch to a 3-4 (though they've done a pretty good job getting people in here to make it happen - I'll give them credit here)
-GIANT holes at CB and FS. No depth at any secondary positions.
-the two best ST players in franchise history shown to the door.

Yup...they are in full tank mode. Welcome to 0-16 boys. At least I know now I don't need to shell out the $$$ for the Sunday Ticket this year. And anyone in Cleveland who buys a ticket to this farce should have his head examined.
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Re: Draft Grades

Unread postby Triple-S » Sun Apr 28, 2013 8:15 pm

bookelly wrote:If the plan is to tank for Johnny Football, and I think it is...then this draft is an A+.

Let's see:
-new offense with an unproven and low-IQ QB
-giant holes at G and TE
-a fleet of talented but young WR augmented by oft injured players
-a switch to a 3-4 (though they've done a pretty good job getting people in here to make it happen - I'll give them credit here)
-GIANT holes at CB and FS. No depth at any secondary positions.
-the two best ST players in franchise history shown to the door.

Yup...they are in full tank mode. Welcome to 0-16 boys. At least I know now I don't need to shell out the $$$ for the Sunday Ticket this year. And anyone in Cleveland who buys a ticket to this farce should have his head examined.


They're not 0 and 16 bad (barring the entire team being injured by week 2), but they're still very much a top 10 team in terms of where we're going to end up in the draft.

There's still also that off chance that Weeds goes DA circa 2007* with this new offense. Is it likely? Probably not, but I'm going to reserve judgement on how bad we are until week 10 of the season. If we're 1-8/2-7? Then yeah, we're in top 5 draft range, congrats. I just don't see the team being THAT bad.

*keep in mind that as of right now, I don't think Weeds is going to be terrible this season, and I believe we'll see Campbell enter in under mop up duty midway through the season.
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Re: Draft Grades

Unread postby peeker643 » Sun Apr 28, 2013 9:05 pm

comish wrote:I thought we agreed last year that it was stupid to grade drafts until at least a year later.


It is. But I think you can grade the process.
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Re: Draft Grades

Unread postby jb » Sun Apr 28, 2013 9:55 pm

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:Not even Mingo?



I read somewhere Mingo has the fewest sacks of any pass rusher drafted top 10 in a long time. IDK if that's true. I don't think Alden Smith had a ton at Mizzou.

Mingos athletic talent had never shown on the field. U can talk to me about scheme And sorts all u want. He had plenty of 3rd down situations. He's got zero pass rush skills other than a great 1st step & he runs out of plays. Hes a worker but not a snot bubbler killer. Sure, his talents could be developed and he's immensely athletically talented. But this is the Browns. He'll be rushed & play for 3 different DCs in 5 years. I have no faith in this organization. I could be wrong. I want to be wrong.

The rest are low / mid round project. Other than McFadden or whoever u can make a case from the reports they may have been UDFAs. McFarren is a 5'9 165 corner with press skills. Good luck at the LOS bro.

These are the chickens coming home to roost when you hire Lombardi. Inexplicable decisions.
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Re: Draft Grades

Unread postby danwismar » Sun Apr 28, 2013 11:30 pm

Just you wait, Browns fans.....
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Re: Draft Grades

Unread postby Hikohadon » Mon Apr 29, 2013 12:14 am

jb wrote:
Cerebral_DownTime wrote:Not even Mingo?



I read somewhere Mingo has the fewest sacks of any pass rusher drafted top 10 in a long time. IDK if that's true. I don't think Alden Smith had a ton at Mizzou.

Mingos athletic talent had never shown on the field. U can talk to me about scheme And sorts all u want. He had plenty of 3rd down situations. He's got zero pass rush skills other than a great 1st step & he runs out of plays. Hes a worker but not a snot bubbler killer. Sure, his talents could be developed and he's immensely athletically talented. But this is the Browns. He'll be rushed & play for 3 different DCs in 5 years. I have no faith in this organization. I could be wrong. I want to be wrong.

The rest are low / mid round project. Other than McFadden or whoever u can make a case from the reports they may have been UDFAs. McFarren is a 5'9 165 corner with press skills. Good luck at the LOS bro.

These are the chickens coming home to roost when you hire Lombardi. Inexplicable decisions.


McFadden's in the 190's, not 165.
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Re: Draft Grades

Unread postby Triple-S » Mon Apr 29, 2013 1:46 am

You know, I'll give Lombardi the benefit of the doubt this year.

The draft class was pretty much atrocious and there was only so much that a team like the Browns could have done. There also wasn't anyone in Free Agency or in the draft that could have been that Franchise QB this team has been starving for. Alex Smith? LOL.

Now this could all change 3 years from now. Perhaps we're seeing Geno Smith hoisting the Silver Football in California while we're all huddled around our chips and salsa. Maybe Jarvis Jones is DPOY for the Steelers, and it is they and the Ravens that still rule the division. But until then? We can't really say yet.

I do think it's a tad unfair to just focus on the draft when the Browns did seem to make some decent trades, and free agency signings. True the Browns lost out on Phil Dawson, Josh Cribbs, and Benjamin Watson. But, they also signed Desmond Bryant, Quentin Groves, and Paul Kruger. They also received Davone Bess and Dion Lewis in trades.

On paper that looks like an upgrade. It also takes a little bit of the sting out of the weak draft class we have.

His criticism from me starts next year. IF the team is terrible (there's a good chance it is going to be), and they can't get themselves a franchise type QB either in Free Agency or the Draft? He's failed.

He's got 2 years to make this into a playoff contending team. I think that's a perfectly fair time table.
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Re: Draft Grades

Unread postby Erie Warrior » Mon Apr 29, 2013 5:14 am

All it shows is that no one has any idea WTF they are talking about. They didn't take the guy I think they should have, but I don't know WTf I'm talking about.

And this notion of taking Johnny Football is equally ridiculous, he ain't all dat.
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Re: Draft Grades

Unread postby jb » Mon Apr 29, 2013 7:35 am

Hikohadon wrote:
jb wrote:
Cerebral_DownTime wrote:Not even Mingo?



I read somewhere Mingo has the fewest sacks of any pass rusher drafted top 10 in a long time. IDK if that's true. I don't think Alden Smith had a ton at Mizzou.

Mingos athletic talent had never shown on the field. U can talk to me about scheme And sorts all u want. He had plenty of 3rd down situations. He's got zero pass rush skills other than a great 1st step & he runs out of plays. Hes a worker but not a snot bubbler killer. Sure, his talents could be developed and he's immensely athletically talented. But this is the Browns. He'll be rushed & play for 3 different DCs in 5 years. I have no faith in this organization. I could be wrong. I want to be wrong.

The rest are low / mid round project. Other than McFadden or whoever u can make a case from the reports they may have been UDFAs. McFarren is a 5'9 165 corner with press skills. Good luck at the LOS bro.

These are the chickens coming home to roost when you hire Lombardi. Inexplicable decisions.


McFadden's in the 190's, not 165.



I've seen contradicting reports. But this is a huge difference. Also reports on McFadden suggest he's a FB player, do that'd be nice. Hope I'm just bitter/jaded.
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Re: Draft Grades

Unread postby jb » Mon Apr 29, 2013 7:41 am

Triple-S wrote:You know, I'll give Lombardi the benefit of the doubt this year.

The draft class was pretty much atrocious and there was only so much that a team like the Browns could have done. There also wasn't anyone in Free Agency or in the draft that could have been that Franchise QB this team has been starving for. Alex Smith? LOL.

Now this could all change 3 years from now. Perhaps we're seeing Geno Smith hoisting the Silver Football in California while we're all huddled around our chips and salsa. Maybe Jarvis Jones is DPOY for the Steelers, and it is they and the Ravens that still rule the division. But until then? We can't really say yet.

I do think it's a tad unfair to just focus on the draft when the Browns did seem to make some decent trades, and free agency signings. True the Browns lost out on Phil Dawson, Josh Cribbs, and Benjamin Watson. But, they also signed Desmond Bryant, Quentin Groves, and Paul Kruger. They also received Davone Bess and Dion Lewis in trades.

On paper that looks like an upgrade. It also takes a little bit of the sting out of the weak draft class we have.

His criticism from me starts next year. IF the team is terrible (there's a good chance it is going to be), and they can't get themselves a franchise type QB either in Free Agency or the Draft? He's failed.

He's got 2 years to make this into a playoff contending team. I think that's a perfectly fair time table.


This is very fair.

The thing I really do like is this. For those not wanting a full reboot that hasn't happened. Banner himself is quoted as saying that they have many young players in whom they don't really know what they have yet & need to find out. So other than DB they signed some vets to push or take their jobs if they don't play well. Seems reasonable.

OTOH this draft is predicated on faith that Bumble & Bumble really are that much smarter. I think this, along with Mingo being a high risk high reward projection project is the wellspring of my dismissive contempt.

I want to eat crow.
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Re: Draft Grades

Unread postby justmebd » Mon Apr 29, 2013 7:49 am

Joe Banner just traded the entire 2014 draft for a jar of pickles and a Baconator.

While some people are criticizing the move, they just don't realize how yummy a Baconator is.
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Re: Draft Grades

Unread postby Hikohadon » Mon Apr 29, 2013 9:02 am

justmebd wrote:Joe Banner just traded the entire 2014 draft for a jar of pickles and a Baconator.

While some people are criticizing the move, they just don't realize how yummy a Baconator is.


One of the many delicious sounding meals my stupid cholesterol prevents me from eating.

There are many players on the Browns I would trade for a steak.
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Re: Draft Grades

Unread postby Hikohadon » Mon Apr 29, 2013 9:17 am

jb wrote:
Hikohadon wrote:
jb wrote:
Cerebral_DownTime wrote:Not even Mingo?



I read somewhere Mingo has the fewest sacks of any pass rusher drafted top 10 in a long time. IDK if that's true. I don't think Alden Smith had a ton at Mizzou.

Mingos athletic talent had never shown on the field. U can talk to me about scheme And sorts all u want. He had plenty of 3rd down situations. He's got zero pass rush skills other than a great 1st step & he runs out of plays. Hes a worker but not a snot bubbler killer. Sure, his talents could be developed and he's immensely athletically talented. But this is the Browns. He'll be rushed & play for 3 different DCs in 5 years. I have no faith in this organization. I could be wrong. I want to be wrong.

The rest are low / mid round project. Other than McFadden or whoever u can make a case from the reports they may have been UDFAs. McFarren is a 5'9 165 corner with press skills. Good luck at the LOS bro.

These are the chickens coming home to roost when you hire Lombardi. Inexplicable decisions.


McFadden's in the 190's, not 165.



I've seen contradicting reports. But this is a huge difference. Also reports on McFadden suggest he's a FB player, do that'd be nice. Hope I'm just bitter/jaded.


Despite our shared bitterness, I think we should agree to accept the combine numbers:

http://www.nfl.com/combine/profiles/leon-mcfadden?id=2539300

Height: 5'10 (I heard it was 5'9 and 3/4 or something which most people have been rounding down to emphasize their displeasure the way that Weeden was 40 years old when he was drafted)
Weight: 193

http://www.bigcatcountry.com/2013/2/24/4025050/nfl-combine-2013-cornerback-safety-measurements-weight-results

Leon McFadden, San Diego State, 5-10, 193

http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=95063&draftyear=2013&genpos=CB

Height: 5-10 Weight: 193
40 Low: 4.39 40 Time: 4.50 40 High: 4.59

I threw 40 time in there as well since it was speculated that he was "slow". A 4.5 isn't burner, but it isn't turtle either.

The only reason I bring this up is that there are enough legitimate complaints about this team to go around without investing in false ones. Those are just measurables, they hold no bearing on whether he can play or not. Which I guess you better hope he can if you're going to count on a rookie 3rd rounder to start at CB for you.
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Re: Draft Grades

Unread postby rebelwithoutaclue » Mon Apr 29, 2013 9:35 am

Erie Warrior wrote:All it shows is that no one has any idea WTF they are talking about. They didn't take the guy I think they should have, but I don't know WTf I'm talking about.

And this notion of taking Johnny Football is equally ridiculous, he ain't all dat.




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Re: Draft Grades

Unread postby jb » Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:16 am

Hikohadon wrote:
jb wrote:
Hikohadon wrote:
jb wrote:
Cerebral_DownTime wrote:Not even Mingo?



I read somewhere Mingo has the fewest sacks of any pass rusher drafted top 10 in a long time. IDK if that's true. I don't think Alden Smith had a ton at Mizzou.

Mingos athletic talent had never shown on the field. U can talk to me about scheme And sorts all u want. He had plenty of 3rd down situations. He's got zero pass rush skills other than a great 1st step & he runs out of plays. Hes a worker but not a snot bubbler killer. Sure, his talents could be developed and he's immensely athletically talented. But this is the Browns. He'll be rushed & play for 3 different DCs in 5 years. I have no faith in this organization. I could be wrong. I want to be wrong.

The rest are low / mid round project. Other than McFadden or whoever u can make a case from the reports they may have been UDFAs. McFarren is a 5'9 165 corner with press skills. Good luck at the LOS bro.

These are the chickens coming home to roost when you hire Lombardi. Inexplicable decisions.


McFadden's in the 190's, not 165.



I've seen contradicting reports. But this is a huge difference. Also reports on McFadden suggest he's a FB player, do that'd be nice. Hope I'm just bitter/jaded.


Despite our shared bitterness, I think we should agree to accept the combine numbers:

http://www.nfl.com/combine/profiles/leon-mcfadden?id=2539300

Height: 5'10 (I heard it was 5'9 and 3/4 or something which most people have been rounding down to emphasize their displeasure the way that Weeden was 40 years old when he was drafted)
Weight: 193

http://www.bigcatcountry.com/2013/2/24/4025050/nfl-combine-2013-cornerback-safety-measurements-weight-results

Leon McFadden, San Diego State, 5-10, 193

http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=95063&draftyear=2013&genpos=CB

Height: 5-10 Weight: 193
40 Low: 4.39 40 Time: 4.50 40 High: 4.59

I threw 40 time in there as well since it was speculated that he was "slow". A 4.5 isn't burner, but it isn't turtle either.

The only reason I bring this up is that there are enough legitimate complaints about this team to go around without investing in false ones. Those are just measurables, they hold no bearing on whether he can play or not. Which I guess you better hope he can if you're going to count on a rookie 3rd rounder to start at CB for you.




I feel better about life. Can't have it both ways. McFadden seems like the anti-Mingo. A solid FOOTBALL player with meh measurables.

Rumors of signing band aid vets DBs are springing up.
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Re: Draft Grades

Unread postby jb » Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:18 am

PS- leave it to the PD to misreport his weight....
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Re: Draft Grades

Unread postby neoleo » Mon Apr 29, 2013 11:52 am

1. Draft grades are stupid.
2. Any 2013 Browns draft grade that doesn't factor in Josh Gordon is even stupider.
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Re: Draft Grades

Unread postby Triple-S » Mon Apr 29, 2013 12:08 pm

jb wrote:OTOH this draft is predicated on faith that Bumble & Bumble really are that much smarter. I think this, along with Mingo being a high risk high reward projection project is the wellspring of my dismissive contempt.

I want to eat crow.


I as a fan have to give them the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise.

Now the leash they have is much, much shorter than the other regimes because of a.) Lombardi's past track record and b.) others before him. The "3 to 5" years rebuilding model is not acceptable answer to me. This isn't 1999, 2004 or even 2009. This is a roster that has some talent and a wee bit of depth. 2 years is more than enough time to make this a playoff team.

I guess in a way I have to give Weeds the same sort of attitude. I'm about 80-90% sure the guy is not going to be the QB by this time next year, but due to circumstances I'm willing to let him show what he's got. I'm somewhat convinced a good portion of why he struggled was because of Shurmer's offense.

What Weeds has now is an offensive minded head coach in the form of Chud, and a an amazing offensive coordinator (but terrible HC) in the form of Turner. He also has some decent blocking, an improved receiving corp, and possibly Trent Richardson (not really sold on him anymore, but eh.).Also to add, the new offense is supposedly tailored to his "Strengths", and I would bet isn't something out of the 1984 San Fransico 49ers playbook.

Am I certain all of this=more wins? No, in fact I'm very much in belief that the Browns are the epitome of Murphy's law. But in terms of what's happened this off-season at least you could make the argument that the franchise made some good moves, and some good hires.
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Re: Draft Grades

Unread postby jb » Mon Apr 29, 2013 12:39 pm

Triple-S wrote:
jb wrote:OTOH this draft is predicated on faith that Bumble & Bumble really are that much smarter. I think this, along with Mingo being a high risk high reward projection project is the wellspring of my dismissive contempt.

I want to eat crow.


I as a fan have to give them the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise.




Honest question: why?

In fact, I would ammend this to read "I as a Browns fan, I tend to believe they are Bumblefucks until they prove otherwise."

I am in no way rooting against them, I just tend to have a Missouri attitude. I understand new guys blah blah blah, but until anyone, anytime, can show me they are not inept I tend to not give credit and benefit of doubt. When you add the fact that this is Mike freaking Lombardi and not Opie from Alabama coming in as a net neutral?

Well.....

I understand that this may be analogous to Rich McKay and Dungy coming to Tampa Bay. This could be The Time. I'll wait and see.

But there is this feeling of contrarianism with the draft and process and deferral until 2014. A lot of it I understand and hold out hope for (not rebooting to reboot, not writing off Hecket's young players right away). I'm just so dawggone jaded.
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Re: Draft Grades

Unread postby JJN » Mon Apr 29, 2013 3:15 pm

neoleo wrote:1. Draft grades are stupid.
2. Any 2013 Browns draft grade that doesn't factor in Josh Gordon is even stupider.


1. You can grade on relative value of the selections.
2. This regime were the ones who took Gordon? Fuck their draft abilities, how did they manage to develop a time machine and take a player a year before they were in power?

This regime drafted scheme over personnel. That is dumb. We have young players built for the 4-3 and they did a decent enough job. Sheard and Rubin don't fit the new scheme, so we reached a little for Mingo and took some meh overpriced FA signings. Grabbed McFadden when there were other players who had more relative value.

Wake me up when we change the front office over again in a year or two.
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Re: Draft Grades

Unread postby leadpipe » Mon Apr 29, 2013 4:38 pm

Saying the draft was good right now is stupid.

Saying the draft was bad right now is stupid.

Therefore, any type of grade is stupid.

As a matter of fact, this whole circus around the NFL draft is stupid. Everyone gather around one of the 95 networks covering this thing, watch, and then have NO REAL IDEA if your team is better or worse after it is done.

And this comes after about a quarter year of getting beat over the head with every thing short of these guy's cock sizes.

Look, I understand some excitement about where some premier players are gonna land, but really, I've actually grown tired of the 4 months before. and the event itself. A bunch of talking heads giving opinions that don't matter, Chris Berman....and a bunch of other bullshit.

I don't need my ticker clogged up with Kiper and McShays "big Board" that changes about 123 times in the four months it runs on the bottom of my screen.

My analysis of the history of the draft: the good organizations tend to do pretty well in hindsight, and the shitty ones continually do stupid shit.

Repeat.

And if I hear one more yup complaining the Browns didn't get the Honey Badger - these same humps that wouldn't know who the Honey Badger was if he came into their house, kicked them in the teeth and ripped their cardigans, I'm gonna be sick.
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Re: Draft Grades

Unread postby OldDawg » Mon Apr 29, 2013 9:37 pm

leadpipe wrote:Saying the draft was good right now is stupid.

Saying the draft was bad right now is stupid.

Therefore, any type of grade is stupid.

As a matter of fact, this whole circus around the NFL draft is stupid. Everyone gather around one of the 95 networks covering this thing, watch, and then have NO REAL IDEA if your team is better or worse after it is done.

I get your point, Pipe, but it really seems that the Browns and Cavs drafts are the only thing we have going for us every year. Then we continue to suck, so we continue to have high hopes at draft time. Seasons begin and we realize our teams still suck again, so we begin to look forward to next draft. It's all we have. Its a cycle in Cleveland. Its the only hope we have.

BTW, I am really hoping we have a chance to get Potter in the NBA draft.
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Re: Draft Grades

Unread postby mattvan1 » Tue Apr 30, 2013 7:21 am

Triple-S wrote:
Now the leash they have is much, much shorter than the other regimes because of.....


That is unintentionally really funny. Who holds "the leash"? You? Me? The Bone Lady? When do we get to yank it if we don't like the results?

At least, for all his faults, Randy felt some sort of loyalty to Al Sr. and the city. Randy listened to to the fans, probably too much. Haslam? :lmfao:

They guy doesn't give two shits about what any of us think. He got to tick off the accomplishment of "own sports franchise". The rest is all bullshit.

And please spare me the "he wants to make money and put people in the seats". Browns fans will always show up. Recent history has proven this.
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Re: Draft Grades

Unread postby Sea Foam Green » Tue Apr 30, 2013 8:12 am

leadpipe wrote:
And if I hear one more yup complaining the Browns didn't get the Honey Badger - these same humps that wouldn't know who the Honey Badger was if he came into their house, kicked them in the teeth and ripped their cardigans, I'm gonna be sick.


Not trying to pick a fight here, just generally curious. As one who adamantly espouses the need for PLAYA's, it seems that this type of complaint would go against your MO.

Not that I'm beside myself about the pick in any way, just that given Honey Badger was taken one pick after our own undersized DB, it seems to me like a legitimate claim to state it would have been preferable to take the one that had significant impact on the field for a National Championship Contender in the toughest conference in football, over the guy that had less impact against worse competition.

So what am I missing? Does too dumb to stay on the field trump Playa ability?
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Re: Draft Grades

Unread postby jb » Tue Apr 30, 2013 8:38 am

SFG, what ur missing is every single scouting report on the plant says TMs ceiling is a nickle back. McFadden has outside CB skills. You can argue a great Nickle trumps a Busta CB subjectively but outside CB value is always higher & was a crying need.

Not taking a position per se. Jus sayin what u might be missing.

That & it's not hard perhaps to show up with big plays when ur playing between 2 top 10 real CB picks & a bevy of high picks in ur front 7.
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Re: Draft Grades

Unread postby Sea Foam Green » Tue Apr 30, 2013 8:52 am

Thanks JB.

And I get the scouting reports, it's just that typically LP is of the 'use your eyes' philosophy rather than stats and metrics, and my eyes tell me HB is a great athlete with a nose for the ball and a knack for the big play, and he did it in the hardest arena CFB has to offer.

And again, I'm not against the McFadden pick or Pro Honey Badger. I just found it peculiar that LP was taking such a hardline which seems to be in opposition to the usual hardline he takes, so was curious.
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Re: Draft Grades

Unread postby neoleo » Tue Apr 30, 2013 9:02 am

JJN wrote:
neoleo wrote:1. Draft grades are stupid.
2. Any 2013 Browns draft grade that doesn't factor in Josh Gordon is even stupider.


1. You can grade on relative value of the selections.
2. This regime were the ones who took Gordon? Fuck their draft abilities, how did they manage to develop a time machine and take a player a year before they were in power?

This regime drafted scheme over personnel. That is dumb. We have young players built for the 4-3 and they did a decent enough job. Sheard and Rubin don't fit the new scheme, so we reached a little for Mingo and took some meh overpriced FA signings. Grabbed McFadden when there were other players who had more relative value.

Wake me up when we change the front office over again in a year or two.


They managed to not have a 2nd round pick because it was used on Josh Gordon. I don't care if Santa Claus made the pick, Josh Gordon is on our roster and he got there by using this year's 2nd round pick. You want to grade the 2013 draft, then Josh Gordon is included. Pretty simple.
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Re: Draft Grades

Unread postby neoleo » Tue Apr 30, 2013 9:04 am

Also, I don't see teams getting their "draft grade" docked becaused they drafted a good player with a pick that was acquired by the previous regime.
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Re: Draft Grades

Unread postby Gradysmanldy » Tue Apr 30, 2013 9:16 am

I can't believe the wailing and gnashing of teeth here over the draft.

You *do* have to factor in the Gordon selection, because he was our second round pick. Anything he did last year was just gravy, we basically got him on loan for developmental purposes. It was a risk the previous regime made that makes the current regime look better.

If your scouts were groomed to look for 4-3 defense and WCO offense, and use a different grading scale than the current management, then the BEST case scenario in a draft is to not waste picks on non-consensus players and have BETTER picks next year. A 3 rounder, with a higher success %, is a win compared to a 4th rounder this year. No question.

Team was already the youngest in the league, the last thing they need is another 4-5 rooks starting. Let some vets supplement the young talent in place, change schemes, and evaluate how much of the dysfunction last year was due to inexperience and shit coaching.

It's a step forward without completely exploding and rebuilding the roster. Not that pretty, but best case scenario. Lombo didn't fuck up any of the picks, which is a net win.

Not to mention that the biggest offseason additions (the pieces necessary to transition to the 3-4 and a couple reliable receivers) were young experienced F/A, and wont need to be filled in the draft.

Btw: those kvetching about *needing* O-line help, this was a top 5 line w/o Pinkston. It's gon' be fine.
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Re: Draft Grades

Unread postby jb » Tue Apr 30, 2013 12:54 pm

Word is they are back in the FA waters. Looking at Winston Justice (wasn't he the 4th Ghostbusters?) . Maybe they think he can move inside? Or just ONeil Cousins proofing us. Thank God
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Re: Draft Grades

Unread postby danwismar » Tue Apr 30, 2013 1:00 pm

At least they know they need help on the OL. There is zero depth at tackle beyond Thomas/Schwartz, and the guards are not even average starting NFL-caliber. The line did well protecting Weeden last season...remarkably so...but they are one injury to a tackle away from disaster.
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Re: Draft Grades

Unread postby pup » Tue Apr 30, 2013 1:22 pm

danwismar wrote:At least they know they need help on the OL. There is zero depth at tackle beyond Thomas/Schwartz, and the guards are not even average starting NFL-caliber. The line did well protecting Weeden last season...remarkably so...but they are one injury to a tackle away from disaster.


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Re: Draft Grades

Unread postby Gradysmanldy » Tue Apr 30, 2013 1:32 pm

Agree with Pup, every NFL team has that problem.

Hopefully they find a better backup than Miller, but Winston Justice is barely capable. Pinkston and Greco are likely NFL average guards, and Luauvauasoapsoasyuo is at BEST a backup.
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Re: Draft Grades

Unread postby Triple-S » Tue Apr 30, 2013 1:40 pm

jb wrote:Honest question: why?

In fact, I would ammend this to read "I as a Browns fan, I tend to believe they are Bumblefucks until they prove otherwise."


Honestly can't blame you or anyone in the fanbase for being jaded. This team until other wise shown on the field is garbage.

The benefit of the doubt mainly comes from the fact that I at least see them trying to make this team better.

If Lombardi/Banner had spent the entire off season sitting on their hands and not being active in FA/trades? Then yeah, I'm not giving them that benefit. Same would have happened had they traded to get Ryan Mallett.
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Re: Draft Grades

Unread postby leadpipe » Tue Apr 30, 2013 4:26 pm

Sea Foam Green wrote:
leadpipe wrote:
And if I hear one more yup complaining the Browns didn't get the Honey Badger - these same humps that wouldn't know who the Honey Badger was if he came into their house, kicked them in the teeth and ripped their cardigans, I'm gonna be sick.


Not trying to pick a fight here, just generally curious. As one who adamantly espouses the need for PLAYA's, it seems that this type of complaint would go against your MO.

Not that I'm beside myself about the pick in any way, just that given Honey Badger was taken one pick after our own undersized DB, it seems to me like a legitimate claim to state it would have been preferable to take the one that had significant impact on the field for a National Championship Contender in the toughest conference in football, over the guy that had less impact against worse competition.

So what am I missing? Does too dumb to stay on the field trump Playa ability?


In a word, yes.

And we're talking historically dumb here. As I mentioned, the rumor going around had several teams nixing him from their lists based on the interview.

And, I tend to believe it when it's backed up by EVERY team passing on him MULTIPLE times.

There's guys that are jack-asses, and not so bright that have their stock drop, but Dez Bryant wasn't dropping into the third, as an example.

I'd take a wager right now that in four years, the Browns pick will still be in the league. I wouldn't make that wager with the Honey Badger.

And by the way, the whole point of that paragraph you sighted wasn't to pick on THB specifically, it was to point out that people who wouldn't know a football if it hit them in the temple just pick a popular name and bitch about why their team didn't draft him. Just as most everyone reading this, many who do know football well, haven't watched that "undersized" CB the Browns drafted for a single solitary second.

The draft was last weekend. And 30 teams have no idea whether they are better or not. So why the hell would the fans?
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Re: Draft Grades

Unread postby jb » Mon May 06, 2013 4:31 pm

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Re: Draft Grades

Unread postby Fire Marshall Bill 2.0 » Mon May 06, 2013 9:51 pm

Hikohadon wrote:There are many players on the Browns I would trade for a steak.


This is just beeyoooteeful ^^^^

lmao
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