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Cabrera to STL?

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Cabrera to STL?

Unread postby skatingtripods » Thu Mar 07, 2013 6:09 pm

The Cardinals need a shortstop with Rafael Furcal out for the year. The Indians need pitching. The Cardinals have tons of it. Should the Indians trade Asdrubal Cabrera to STL?

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Re: Cabrera to STL?

Unread postby Adverb Harry » Thu Mar 07, 2013 6:38 pm

Great article, once again. When I heard the Furcal news earlier today, I too wondered if this would start a new round of speculation. Really, the Indians have put themselves in a precarious position this year. We were buyers, but largely due to quirks in the market that likely can't be counted on again in the future. They want to be contenders, but should have probably been rebuilders. And, while we're much better off than a year ago, this team is hardly a sure thing. That said, it's an intriguing bunch they've put together, and Cabrera in a real lineup for once should be fun to watch. I'd like to see what he can do. Then again, before December, I was sure he was a goner and excited about what he could bring back.

So, summing up, moving him for pitching (that could conceivably even help this year) is probably the right move. He's gone after next year, and aligning the team with the pieces that are controlled for the next 3-4 years (including our new major acquisitions) would be wise. A front of the rotation with Bauer and Miller/Rosenthal? Yes please, if we could swing it. Then again, this team does have a chance--remote, yes, but it's there--to make some noise this year, and it's far better with Asdrubal in there. Plus, there's the fan reaction...finally open the wallets, only to trade away a big piece for more "kids?" Probably wouldn't go over well.

If I were in charge, I'd reluctantly say do it. But it's hardly an easy call.
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Re: Cabrera to STL?

Unread postby gotribe31 » Thu Mar 07, 2013 7:09 pm

This org has more SS depth than anyone in baseball. Most of that depth is still a ways from the show of course, but it's still a consideration. If the right offer comes along, absolutely move him. But only for the right offer.
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Re: Cabrera to STL?

Unread postby bookelly » Thu Mar 07, 2013 10:17 pm

With the re-emergence of Kasmir, I don't think we really need to look for SP just yet.
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Re: Cabrera to STL?

Unread postby skatingtripods » Thu Mar 07, 2013 11:24 pm

You're absolutely right, AH. And that's how I feel about it. If we're getting high ceiling kids like Miller/Rosenthal, I don't think you can pass them up. If Wacha is somehow in the deal, too, he's a very projectable middle of the rotation arm, with a ceiling as a #2.

Reluctant? Yes. For the betterment of the team's future? No choice IMO.

We don't know who STL would offer or if either side is even seriously considering it, but I damn sure hope the Indians are finding out who the Cardinals would move.
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Re: Cabrera to STL?

Unread postby pup » Thu Mar 07, 2013 11:50 pm

First thing i thought of when I saw Furcal news.

Problem is, has to be for Miller since he is the most MLB ready. Hard to sell a trade for he future before end of ST after this off season.

One of the pitchers and Taveras? Now I am interested.
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Re: Cabrera to STL?

Unread postby skatingtripods » Fri Mar 08, 2013 1:35 am

pup wrote:Problem is, has to be for Miller since he is the most MLB ready. Hard to sell a trade for he future before end of ST after this off season.


Rosenthal was dominant as a reliever in 2012. Not sure if it'll translate to being a starter, but he's certainly MLB-ready.

That's why in my article, I suggested that the Indians trade Cabrera with a bullpen arm to make sure STL is willing to give up Rosenthal as one of the pieces.

A base of a deal with one of the two is fine with me. Add a little more to package if Rosenthal.

One of the pitchers and Taveras? Now I am interested.


Taveras would be an incredible pick up, but he's probably the only untouchable STL prospect.

Two of the pitchers plus something else also works. Three pitchers and I'm ecstatic.
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Re: Cabrera to STL?

Unread postby pup » Fri Mar 08, 2013 8:03 am

skatingtripods wrote:
pup wrote:Problem is, has to be for Miller since he is the most MLB ready. Hard to sell a trade for he future before end of ST after this off season.


Rosenthal was dominant as a reliever in 2012. Not sure if it'll translate to being a starter, but he's certainly MLB-ready.

That's why in my article, I suggested that the Indians trade Cabrera with a bullpen arm to make sure STL is willing to give up Rosenthal as one of the pieces.

A base of a deal with one of the two is fine with me. Add a little more to package if Rosenthal.

One of the pitchers and Taveras? Now I am interested.


Taveras would be an incredible pick up, but he's probably the only untouchable STL prospect.

Two of the pitchers plus something else also works. Three pitchers and I'm ecstatic.


Peter Kozmar.

Make him touchable. Shit, not only are we fixing their hole we are upgrading what they had. Go for broke.
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Re: Cabrera to STL?

Unread postby gotribe31 » Fri Mar 08, 2013 8:30 am

They're not trading Taveras. Let alone Taveras + something else.
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Re: Cabrera to STL?

Unread postby leadpipe » Fri Mar 08, 2013 9:56 am

bookelly wrote:With the re-emergence of Kasmir, I don't think we really need to look for SP just yet.


If you put off anything to depend on Scott Kazmir, you'd have to be a GD buffoon.

First of all, he hasn't "re-emerged." The firsr half of spring training doesn't really count.

Second of all, should he be competent, he needs to stay that way for some innings, instead of winding up on the DL for the 987th time.

He looks great...his velocity is this.....let me know in a 100 innings - if he gets there.

A season from Scott Kazmir that would really help the 2013 Indians is closer to "Miracle" than "expect."
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Re: Cabrera to STL?

Unread postby WiscTribeFan » Fri Mar 08, 2013 10:01 am

bookelly wrote:With the re-emergence of Kasmir, I don't think we really need to look for SP just yet.


Although encouraging, Kasmir is pitching in very low stress games trying to work his pitches back. I don't think he is ready to step into the rotation at this very second. Maybe by the end of ST, but I'd bet if he goes north with the team, it's as a LH reliever to start with. I think they will try to work out a deal with him to get some minor league starts before pitching in the bigs.

I also think that St. Louis isn't going to sell the farm to pick up a SS, at least not right away.

Forget landing any of their top pitching prospects.
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For what it's worth...

Unread postby WiscTribeFan » Fri Mar 08, 2013 11:34 am

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2013/03/c ... r-now.html


Cardinals Don’t Expect To Pursue Shortstops For Now
By Ben Nicholson-Smith [March 7 at 11:41am CST]

Rafael Furcal will undergo Tommy John surgery on his right elbow and miss most or all of the 2013 season, the Cardinals announced today. GM John Mozeliak said he doesn’t expect to pursue outside help at shortstop, at least for now.

"From the immediate standpoint, I think we’re OK,” Mozeliak told reporters in Jupiter including B.J. Rains of MLBTR. “Now, as the season develops, if we don’t feel that things are going as we hoped, then we explore other options. But I think in the short-term, we feel comfortable where we’re at."

That leaves Pete Kozma as the Cardinals’ primary shortstop option with Ronny Cedeno as a backup and Daniel Descalso as another internal option. Though Kozma has limited MLB experience and a pedestrian minor league record, he impressed late in the 2012 campaign. Mozeliak expressed optimism that Kozma will play well enough that outside options won’t be required.

"I don’t see the free agent market putting much out there for a team from the middle infield standpoint in the near future,” he said. “But that could change because guys have options. But I think the trade market, might bear some things. We’re open. I don’t have the answer today.”

If the Cardinals were to look outside of the organization for shortstops today they wouldn’t find many options. Jason Bartlett, Ryan Theriot and Munenori Kawasaki are available in free agency and it’s possible players such as Reid Brignac will be available in trades.

If the Cardinals wait until midseason it’s at least conceivable that impact players such as Asdrubal Cabrera, Stephen Drew and Troy Tulowitzki could be available. Once the season ends there could be additional trade candidates such as Elvis Andrus and J.J. Hardy plus free agents Brendan Ryan, Jhonny Peralta and Yunel Escobar. Furcal's two-year, $14MM contract expires this offseason.
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Re: Cabrera to STL?

Unread postby pup » Fri Mar 08, 2013 11:57 am

gotribe31 wrote:They're not trading Taveras. Let alone Taveras + something else.


Then I'm not trading them Cabrera.
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Re: Cabrera to STL?

Unread postby skatingtripods » Fri Mar 08, 2013 12:01 pm

I'd happily trade Cabrera for pitching. Shame that the Cardinals don't appear interested and want to go with Pete Kozma or some other schlub. Whatever.

Pup, why wouldn't you do it? It's no different than Choo for Bauer. 1 year for 6 years. If the Indians got any of STL's top pitching talent, it'd be 2 years of Cabrera for 6 years of Shelby Miller/5 of Trevor Rosenthal/6 of whoever else.

It's a moot point, I'm just curious.
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Re: Cabrera to STL?

Unread postby pup » Fri Mar 08, 2013 12:04 pm

skatingtripods wrote:I'd happily trade Cabrera for pitching. Shame that the Cardinals don't appear interested and want to go with Pete Kozma or some other schlub. Whatever.

Pup, why wouldn't you do it? It's no different than Choo for Bauer. 1 year for 6 years. If the Indians got any of STL's top pitching talent, it'd be 2 years of Cabrera for 6 years of Shelby Miller/5 of Trevor Rosenthal/6 of whoever else.

It's a moot point, I'm just curious.


1. Bauer for Choo was before going nuts with Swisher and Bourn. You have a fan base interested for this first time in a while. To revert back to trading away good players for prospects will turn some off.

2. Asdrubal >> Choo, IMO

I think we fleeced Zona/Cinci in that deal. I do not think anything short of fleecing St. Louis is worth the negative impact to the fan base.
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Re: Cabrera to STL?

Unread postby peeker643 » Fri Mar 08, 2013 12:12 pm

skatingtripods wrote:I'd happily trade Cabrera for pitching. Shame that the Cardinals don't appear interested and want to go with Pete Kozma or some other schlub. Whatever.

Pup, why wouldn't you do it? It's no different than Choo for Bauer. 1 year for 6 years. If the Indians got any of STL's top pitching talent, it'd be 2 years of Cabrera for 6 years of Shelby Miller/5 of Trevor Rosenthal/6 of whoever else.

It's a moot point, I'm just curious.


I'd trade Cabbie for pitching too. But if we know that...

Assuming you're okay going with Aviles in a year where you believe the Indians can potentially challenge for a playoff spot, why wouldn't the Cardinals consider doing the same thing with another Aviles-like SS as opposed to dealing big time prospects for Asdrubal Cabrera?

Cozart, Pennington, Crawford all primary SS for playoff teams, right?
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Re: Cabrera to STL?

Unread postby skatingtripods » Fri Mar 08, 2013 12:13 pm

pup wrote:1. Bauer for Choo was before going nuts with Swisher and Bourn. You have a fan base interested for this first time in a while. To revert back to trading away good players for prospects will turn some off.

2. Asdrubal >> Choo, IMO

I think we fleeced Zona/Cinci in that deal. I do not think anything short of fleecing St. Louis is worth the negative impact to the fan base.


Fair points. Not sure I totally agree with Cabrera >> Choo, but I will agree that Cabrera's value is higher because SS is not a productive offensive position.

I get the PR/fan base argument, but I would hate for that to be a deciding factor between keeping a bandwagon fan base happy or acquiring top-tier SP talent. Not to mention that the Indians are going to shop Cabrera again at midseason if we're not in the race and definitely next offseason, unless we go on some magical run.

FWIW, I agree we fleeced Arizona. Cincy got just what they wanted to make a one-year run and I don't think Gregorius was a lot to give up. I like the deal for them, too, especially with Choo playing in a good hitter's park this season.
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Re: Cabrera to STL?

Unread postby skatingtripods » Fri Mar 08, 2013 12:23 pm

peeker643 wrote:Assuming you're okay going with Aviles in a year where you believe the Indians can potentially challenge for a playoff spot, why wouldn't the Cardinals consider doing the same thing with another Aviles-like SS as opposed to dealing big time prospects for Asdrubal Cabrera?


I could write a lengthy blurb about the Cabrera to Aviles gap and how much it would cost us. Yes, I think it would make an impact this season and it's a definite downgrade. Which I'd live with at the expense of getting some starting pitching.

Because they'd have Cabrera for next year too? They were making a play for Cabrera at the Winter Meetings. Andrus as well. Clearly, they think SS is an organizational need, even before the Furcal injury. If they were so inclined, I think they could sign Cabrera to an extension and he'd be cheaper than Andrus.

If they can find an Aviles-type guy, who plays above average defense and can hit a little, then, that's the route they'll go. Don't let Kozma's small sample size in MLB last year fool you, he had a .236/.308/.344/.652 slash in over 2700 plate appearances in the minors.

I understand why STL wouldn't do it. Frankly, they're not as good as Cincinnati and I don't know if they can beat the Braves or Giants/Dodgers for a wild card spot. They're better off keeping the arms and retooling the rotation.

But that should never stop the Indians from asking and finding out if they'll overpay.
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Re: Cabrera to STL?

Unread postby peeker643 » Fri Mar 08, 2013 12:30 pm

skatingtripods wrote:
peeker643 wrote:Assuming you're okay going with Aviles in a year where you believe the Indians can potentially challenge for a playoff spot, why wouldn't the Cardinals consider doing the same thing with another Aviles-like SS as opposed to dealing big time prospects for Asdrubal Cabrera?


I could write a lengthy blurb about the Cabrera to Aviles gap and how much it would cost us. Yes, I think it would make an impact this season and it's a definite downgrade. Which I'd live with at the expense of getting some starting pitching.

Because they'd have Cabrera for next year too? They were making a play for Cabrera at the Winter Meetings. Andrus as well. Clearly, they think SS is an organizational need, even before the Furcal injury. If they were so inclined, I think they could sign Cabrera to an extension and he'd be cheaper than Andrus.

If they can find an Aviles-type guy, who plays above average defense and can hit a little, then, that's the route they'll go. Don't let Kozma's small sample size in MLB last year fool you, he had a .236/.308/.344/.652 slash in over 2700 plate appearances in the minors.

I understand why STL wouldn't do it. Frankly, they're not as good as Cincinnati and I don't know if they can beat the Braves or Giants/Dodgers for a wild card spot. They're better off keeping the arms and retooling the rotation.

But that should never stop the Indians from asking and finding out if they'll overpay.


I doubt it has stopped the Indians from asking. But I believe the Cardinals are likely more comfortable for now in keeping that pitching and bridging the SS gap. I'd not be comfortable with Kozma either if I was them, but there are players out there with lower acquisition costs than Cabrera's, in all likelihood.

The Tribe should knock on the door and make their pitch. I just would expect the Cardinals to close the door on them rather quickly.
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Re: Cabrera to STL?

Unread postby gotribe31 » Fri Mar 08, 2013 12:37 pm

pup wrote:
skatingtripods wrote:I'd happily trade Cabrera for pitching. Shame that the Cardinals don't appear interested and want to go with Pete Kozma or some other schlub. Whatever.

Pup, why wouldn't you do it? It's no different than Choo for Bauer. 1 year for 6 years. If the Indians got any of STL's top pitching talent, it'd be 2 years of Cabrera for 6 years of Shelby Miller/5 of Trevor Rosenthal/6 of whoever else.

It's a moot point, I'm just curious.


1. Bauer for Choo was before going nuts with Swisher and Bourn. You have a fan base interested for this first time in a while. To revert back to trading away good players for prospects will turn some off.

2. Asdrubal >> Choo, IMO

I think we fleeced Zona/Cinci in that deal. I do not think anything short of fleecing St. Louis is worth the negative impact to the fan base.


Agreed. I think that Asdrubal is worth much more than Choo, and I think we should only move him right now if there's a Godfather offer on the table. If Taveras + one of their big 3 arms is offered, I take it and run. But this team needs pitching to make a legit run at the playoffs, whether that run takes place this year or next. The #5 pick in this year's draft will help, but other than Bauer and some relief arms there isn't much on the horizon that will make a difference at the major league level anytime soon.
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Re: Cabrera to STL?

Unread postby pup » Fri Mar 08, 2013 12:50 pm

Adam - Why do you have to go the bandwagon fan route? It really cheapens an otherwise very strong position and post. Fans should not be required to follow shit. They may decide to, but you are not a bandwagon fan for getting sick of the same old crap year after year...then responding positively when the team does the work required to reengage the fans.

And yes, the Asdrubal >> Choo was about value. I think Asdrubal is better than Choo but that is a different conversation. The value of Asdrubal to the Indians is greater than Choo and more importantly the value of Asdrubal to the Cardinals would need to be greater all together.
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Re: Cabrera to STL?

Unread postby skatingtripods » Fri Mar 08, 2013 1:00 pm

pup wrote:Adam - Why do you have to go the bandwagon fan route? It really cheapens an otherwise very strong position and post. Fans should not be required to follow shit. They may decide to, but you are not a bandwagon fan for getting sick of the same old crap year after year...then responding positively when the team does the work required to reengage the fans.


Guess I'm just jaded.
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Re: Cabrera to STL?

Unread postby skatingtripods » Fri Mar 08, 2013 1:06 pm

peeker643 wrote:I doubt it has stopped the Indians from asking. But I believe the Cardinals are likely more comfortable for now in keeping that pitching and bridging the SS gap. I'd not be comfortable with Kozma either if I was them, but there are players out there with lower acquisition costs than Cabrera's, in all likelihood.

The Tribe should knock on the door and make their pitch. I just would expect the Cardinals to close the door on them rather quickly.


Probably. But, my whole premise to the article, though I guess I didn't mention it directly is that the Cardinals, despite having Furcal, were not shy about their interest in shortstops this winter. They probably put guys like Mike Wacha or Carlos Martinez out there, but in a one-for-one, maybe two-for-one sense. Now, with Furcal done, they might add names to the list that weren't previously there.

If they decide to go with Kozma or somebody else, I don't blame them for it.

It just so happens that the Cardinals have a need we can fill and the Indians have a need they can fill. Made for a good article. I don't necessarily anticipate anything happening and the Indians are probably content with their chances this season.

Again, the fact that they may look to move Cabrera at some point during the season or next winter also factored into my decision to write the article and pose the question.
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Re: Cabrera to STL?

Unread postby motherscratcher » Fri Mar 08, 2013 1:52 pm

I'm with Pup in that I'd be willing to move Asdrubal only if we get a knockout offer. Other than that I think you roll with the team on the field. But I think Tripod's point is that the Cards may be ripe for fleecing right now.

Bottom line is, while dropping Cabrera to Aviles is a definite and obvious downgrade, I have trouble believing that it would be the difference between World Series Champs and Also Rans when considering the rotation we will enter the season with. Cabrera has a value, and if StL is willing to overpay, then y have to do it. Despite the exiting and welcome spending spree that we just went on, we still aren't the Yankees and continually being on the right side of deals, ala TB, has the best chance to bear fruit.


Also, I highly recommend that when reading the name Furcal, you pronounce it in your head as if it rhymes with Urkel. You won't regret it. Very enjoyable.

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Re: Cabrera to STL?

Unread postby peeker643 » Fri Mar 08, 2013 2:16 pm

motherscratcher wrote:I'm with Pup in that I'd be willing to move Asdrubal only if we get a knockout offer. Other than that I think you roll with the team on the field. But I think Tripod's point is that the Cards may be ripe for fleecing right now.

Bottom line is, while dropping Cabrera to Aviles is a definite and obvious downgrade, I have trouble believing that it would be the difference between World Series Champs and Also Rans when considering the rotation we will enter the season with. Cabrera has a value, and if StL is willing to overpay, then y have to do it. Despite the exiting and welcome spending spree that we just went on, we still aren't the Yankees and continually being on the right side of deals, ala TB, has the best chance to bear fruit.


Also, I highly recommend that when reading the name Furcal, you pronounce it in your head as if it rhymes with Urkel. You won't regret it. Very enjoyable.

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::doh::

Not the point.

You make an overwhelmingly favorable deal any time and every time one is offered, for whomever you have to trade.

The point is why would the Cardinals willingly be on the other end of that when there are less costly options that are available?

Of course you do it if the Cardinals want to overpay. The point is they likely won't. Like I said, make the telephone call but be ready for the 'click' and dead line shortly thereafter.

We are talking about a guy in Furcal who, while somehow making an All Star team, was a .264/.325/.346 guy himself last year, with 5 HRs and 12SBs. It's not like they're replacing an MVP there.

For the stats guys, you look at a sample of the top 17-20 or so SS last season and Furcal's WAR was above only Honny's. Guys like Cozart, Aviles and Alexi Ramirez were ahead of him. You simply don't need to mortgage the farm to get his replacement or someone better.

That's all I'm saying.

If the Cardinals want to do that, fine. Take all you can get. But to think they will? Not sure why they'd even entertain the thought.
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Re: Cabrera to STL?

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Fri Mar 08, 2013 2:18 pm

If they want Cabrera, I want their best prospect in return. That's the deal, take it or go fuck yourself.
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Re: Cabrera to STL?

Unread postby skatingtripods » Fri Mar 08, 2013 2:40 pm

peeker643 wrote:If the Cardinals want to do that, fine. Take all you can get. But to think they will? Not sure why they'd even entertain the thought.


I understand the point you're making. In terms of everyday shortstops, Furcal was one of the worst and, therefore, is not hard to replace. But, shortstops are also one of the toughest positions to acquire talent at. To upgrade substantially, you have to pay the price.

If they're content with replacing Furcal with another replacement-level player, it'll be interesting to see where it leaves them come October. Their competition for the wild card spot got better and the top dog in their division got better.

They seem content to stay where they are. I'll be curious to see how it turns out.
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Re: Cabrera to STL?

Unread postby motherscratcher » Fri Mar 08, 2013 4:07 pm

Shit Peek, I'm not sure what the hell in my post made you think I was trying to contradict something that you'd said. I get what you're saying. I'm on board. I'm not implying that it is panic time in StL because Raphael Fucking Furkel went down.

I'm just saying, to the uninformed masses, that Cabrera isn't untouchable, and if there is an incredible stupid deal that is out there, jumping on it does not mean SSDD down on Carnegie.

::doh:: yourself donkey dicknose.
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Re: Cabrera to STL?

Unread postby 1Perry » Fri Mar 08, 2013 4:08 pm

Yes, the Indians would have to make the trade if it was overwhelming. No, it likely wouldn't go over well right now with those the Indians need to attract to the games this year unless there was an immediate impact player included.

Unless St Louis could sign Cabrera to an extension I can't imagine it makes much sense for them.

I do believe losing Cabrera would be a bigger hit than Choo was. Especially since the team was ready to immediately replace him.

As easy as it is to dismiss the "bandwagon" fans a team like the Indians needs them. My wife hasn't gone to a game in around 5-6 years. She actually asked me when we were going to go to a game this year. (being a 6 hour round trip it's not something generally done spur of the moment) I had no idea she was even paying attention and I'm sure it has to do with Swisher being a local guy but all the same.
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Re: Cabrera to STL?

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Fri Mar 08, 2013 4:09 pm

motherscratcher wrote:donkey dicknose.


I just.... I... I don't understand, at all.
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Re: Cabrera to STL?

Unread postby motherscratcher » Fri Mar 08, 2013 6:01 pm

Searching for a goofy insult that first thin that popped into my head for some reason was donkey dick. But that's not really an insult is it? So I just added nose onto the end and called it a day.
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Re: Cabrera to STL?

Unread postby peeker643 » Sat Mar 09, 2013 9:00 am

motherscratcher wrote:Searching for a goofy insult that first thin that popped into my head for some reason was donkey dick. But that's not really an insult is it? So I just added nose onto the end and called it a day.


It was effective. I wept inconsolably for an hour.

Words hurt, dude.

Here's numbers to show how tough it is to replace Furkel.
http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/batting/_/ ... order/true

And Adam, if the Cardinals were looking to upgrade substantially the SS position, why was Furkel their guy before he got hurt? Seems they were content to go into the season with a guy whose been declining for a few years and whose less of a player than Brendan Ryan and Jed Lowrie.

They didn't notice Furkel's suck the day after he got hurt and say, "Holy shit, dude blows and Everth Cabrera would have been a better option. We need to upgrade now by dealing our best prospects even though we could probably find an equal option to Furkel at a bus stop".

(Yeah...I'm using 'Furkel' to appease motherscratcher and heal the wounds I apparently opened with this emoticon ::doh:: )

The time to make a deal for a better SS than Furkel was before Furkel went down when you had same knowledge of his regression and suck but more leverage than when his elbow snapped. Pretty sure teams understand that. That they didn't look to upgrade over Furkel when he wasn't out for the year tells me they're somewhat certain they can find a similar guy without trading mega-prospects.

And I think they're right.

;-) ;) :wink:
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Re: Cabrera to STL?

Unread postby Dnthateonthepronk » Sat Mar 09, 2013 1:34 pm

I think they want to upgrade Furcal but dont want to pay the price to do it. It could be possible that they are willing to pay a high price but are just playing chicken and waiting to see if a teams blinks.

Either way Im not sure Asdrubal would end up in St Louis anyways. Because If I was actually going to give up a package of Miller/and or Taveras and Wacha which is what we or the front office would want for dealing Cabrera, Im calling Colorado and making a deal for Tulo not Cabrera. If im giving up that much Im getting the best player I can. Im pretty sure Colorado would have to at least listen to a deal like that on Tulo just like we would on Cabrera.
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Re: Cabrera to STL?

Unread postby dazindiansfanuk » Sat Mar 09, 2013 2:33 pm

Dnthateonthepronk wrote:I think they want to upgrade Furcal but dont want to pay the price to do it. It could be possible that they are willing to pay a high price but are just playing chicken and waiting to see if a teams blinks.

Either way Im not sure Asdrubal would end up in St Louis anyways. Because If I was actually going to give up a package of Miller/and or Taveras and Wacha which is what we or the front office would want for dealing Cabrera, Im calling Colorado and making a deal for Tulo not Cabrera. If im giving up that much Im getting the best player I can. Im pretty sure Colorado would have to at least listen to a deal like that on Tulo just like we would on Cabrera.


I won't disagree with you that I'd rather have Tulo than AC but, Tulo could be described as injury prone and is owed $144m over the next 8 years!

That's a lot to take on for any team, especially if you have to give up serious talent as well.
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Re: Cabrera to STL?

Unread postby motherscratcher » Sat Mar 09, 2013 3:45 pm

Tulo is worth the risk, IMO. Worth every penny if healthy.
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Re: Cabrera to STL?

Unread postby statmasta » Sat Mar 09, 2013 4:05 pm

Regardless of whether or not it makes baseball sense, you just can't do it. Not with this fanbase. Not with the goodwill this FO has built this off-season. To trade Cabrera now would kill all of that.

Play out the season with Cabrera this year. With him being in better shape and having a better lineup around him, he should be able to produce all year long and hopefully avoid the second half slump. If that does happen, his value will be higher. Trade him then, after this season. Plus, Lindor/Paulino will be one year closer to the bigs, too. That's one less season we have to deal with some scrub like Aviles starting everyday. It works all the way around.
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Re: Cabrera to STL?

Unread postby motherscratcher » Sat Mar 09, 2013 4:10 pm

statmasta wrote:Regardless of whether or not it makes baseball sense, you just can't do it. Not with this fanbase. Not with the goodwill this FO has built this off-season. To trade Cabrera now would kill all of that.

Play out the season with Cabrera this year. With him being in better shape and having a better lineup around him, he should be able to produce all year long and hopefully avoid the second half slump. If that does happen, his value will be higher. Trade him then, after this season. Plus, Lindor/Paulino will be one year closer to the bigs, too. That's one less season we have to deal with some scrub like Aviles starting everyday. It works all the way around.


Honest to God who gives a shit what the fanbase thinks? Just win. If it makes sense to make a trade then do it. If you are worried what Chuck Fucking Booms and the assholes who call his show think then I don't want you anywhere near the front office or making decisions.
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Re: Cabrera to STL?

Unread postby statmasta » Sat Mar 09, 2013 4:40 pm

motherscratcher wrote:
statmasta wrote:Regardless of whether or not it makes baseball sense, you just can't do it. Not with this fanbase. Not with the goodwill this FO has built this off-season. To trade Cabrera now would kill all of that.

Play out the season with Cabrera this year. With him being in better shape and having a better lineup around him, he should be able to produce all year long and hopefully avoid the second half slump. If that does happen, his value will be higher. Trade him then, after this season. Plus, Lindor/Paulino will be one year closer to the bigs, too. That's one less season we have to deal with some scrub like Aviles starting everyday. It works all the way around.


Honest to God who gives a shit what the fanbase thinks? Just win. If it makes sense to make a trade then do it. If you are worried what Chuck Fucking Booms and the assholes who call his show think then I don't want you anywhere near the front office or making decisions.

Ownership cares. Happy fans = ticket sales

And trading Cabrera wouldn't help them win this year. And that's what ownership wants right now, to win this year....or at least they want to win enough to sell plenty of tickets. Obviously nobody expects a championship, but they don't want the stadium empty anymore.

They won't trade Cabrera.
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Re: Cabrera to STL?

Unread postby motherscratcher » Sat Mar 09, 2013 4:57 pm

statmasta wrote:
motherscratcher wrote:
statmasta wrote:Regardless of whether or not it makes baseball sense, you just can't do it. Not with this fanbase. Not with the goodwill this FO has built this off-season. To trade Cabrera now would kill all of that.

Play out the season with Cabrera this year. With him being in better shape and having a better lineup around him, he should be able to produce all year long and hopefully avoid the second half slump. If that does happen, his value will be higher. Trade him then, after this season. Plus, Lindor/Paulino will be one year closer to the bigs, too. That's one less season we have to deal with some scrub like Aviles starting everyday. It works all the way around.


Honest to God who gives a shit what the fanbase thinks? Just win. If it makes sense to make a trade then do it. If you are worried what Chuck Fucking Booms and the assholes who call his show think then I don't want you anywhere near the front office or making decisions.

Ownership cares. Happy fans = ticket sales

And trading Cabrera wouldn't help them win this year. And that's what ownership wants right now, to win this year....or at least they want to win enough to sell plenty of tickets. Obviously nobody expects a championship, but they don't want the stadium empty anymore.

They won't trade Cabrera.


What the FO will do and what they should do are different arguments. It's easy to say that they won't trade Cabrera. That's a pretty likely conclusion in any scenario. The odds that he will be dealt is very small in any circumstance. But to say that he won't be dealt because Antonetti is afraid of the fans reaction is ridiculous.

Just as it's ridiculous to suggest that all of the good will this FO has garnered this offseason will evaporate immediately if Cabrera was shipped in a great deal. It won't. Not if they win. And if they don't, then it won't matter anyway.

But, what I was reacting to mostly was the statement "Regardless of whether or not it makes baseball sense, you just can't do it." That is the same as saying "The Indians shouldn't do something that makes them better because the they are afraid some fans will be mad." This front office has never given any indication they give a single solitary crap what the fans think is the right move baseball wise. Nor should they.

And if they do I want a new front office.
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Re: Cabrera to STL?

Unread postby statmasta » Sat Mar 09, 2013 5:11 pm

motherscratcher wrote:
statmasta wrote:
motherscratcher wrote:
statmasta wrote:Regardless of whether or not it makes baseball sense, you just can't do it. Not with this fanbase. Not with the goodwill this FO has built this off-season. To trade Cabrera now would kill all of that.

Play out the season with Cabrera this year. With him being in better shape and having a better lineup around him, he should be able to produce all year long and hopefully avoid the second half slump. If that does happen, his value will be higher. Trade him then, after this season. Plus, Lindor/Paulino will be one year closer to the bigs, too. That's one less season we have to deal with some scrub like Aviles starting everyday. It works all the way around.


Honest to God who gives a shit what the fanbase thinks? Just win. If it makes sense to make a trade then do it. If you are worried what Chuck Fucking Booms and the assholes who call his show think then I don't want you anywhere near the front office or making decisions.

Ownership cares. Happy fans = ticket sales

And trading Cabrera wouldn't help them win this year. And that's what ownership wants right now, to win this year....or at least they want to win enough to sell plenty of tickets. Obviously nobody expects a championship, but they don't want the stadium empty anymore.

They won't trade Cabrera.


What the FO will do and what they should do are different arguments. It's easy to say that they won't trade Cabrera. That's a pretty likely conclusion in any scenario. The odds that he will be dealt is very small in any circumstance. But to say that he won't be dealt because Antonetti is afraid of the fans reaction is ridiculous.

Just as it's ridiculous to suggest that all of the good will this FO has garnered this offseason will evaporate immediately if Cabrera was shipped in a great deal. It won't. Not if they win. And if they don't, then it won't matter anyway.

But, what I was reacting to mostly was the statement "Regardless of whether or not it makes baseball sense, you just can't do it." That is the same as saying "The Indians shouldn't do something that makes them better because the they are afraid some fans will be mad." This front office has never given any indication they give a single solitary crap what the fans think is the right move baseball wise. Nor should they.

And if they do I want a new front office.

Understood. I didn't completely explain my thoughts on this. What I really feel is that there's probably not a deal that makes enough sense for them to give up Cabrera for this season. They're not going to get Oscar Taveras or any other superstar prospect for Cabrera. If they could, you pull the trigger immediately. But that's not going to happen. Asdrubal does have good trade value, but he's also an extremely valuable player on the field. And I'm expecting him to have a more complete season than he had either of the past two years. So any deal we could get this year, we should be able to get next off-season as well (and maybe better). So I'm hoping we could get at least the same value in return next season, while keeping his value on the field for this season.

I really want to see what this team can do. I'd hate to put all these pieces together, only to immediately ship off a key piece of this team for a return that doesn't blow us away.
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Re: Cabrera to STL?

Unread postby peeker643 » Sat Mar 09, 2013 5:34 pm

People here value Cabrera beyond what he's actually worth. That doesn't surprise me at all except for the fact they watch him every year and watch him get fat, complacent and lazy pretty much the middle of July every year.

He's a good ball player. He's not a premier player offensively or defensively. If you think he's more than that then there ain't much more of a conversation to have.

Again, you see it every year. Check with the numbers guys if ya don't trust the eyes.
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Re: Cabrera to STL?

Unread postby statmasta » Sat Mar 09, 2013 5:53 pm

peeker643 wrote:People here value Cabrera beyond what he's actually worth. That doesn't surprise me at all except for the fact they watch him every year and watch him get fat, complacent and lazy pretty much the middle of July every year.

He's a good ball player. He's not a premier player offensively or defensively. If you think he's more than that then there ain't much more of a conversation to have.

Again, you see it every year. Check with the numbers guys if ya don't trust the eyes.

Maybe he's not playing to his potential, but's he's still a good player. Numbers and the eye test tell me that.

Numbers: 4.6, 3.0 WAR the past two years. 1st and 5th in the majors among shortstops respectively.

Eye test tells me he's a highly skilled player who wasn't physically capable of holding up for the entire season. He's in better shape now, though. So let's see if he can keep it up for the second half now.
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Re: Cabrera to STL?

Unread postby skatingtripods » Sat Mar 09, 2013 8:58 pm

peeker643 wrote:People here value Cabrera beyond what he's actually worth. That doesn't surprise me at all except for the fact they watch him every year and watch him get fat, complacent and lazy pretty much the middle of July every year.

He's a good ball player. He's not a premier player offensively or defensively. If you think he's more than that then there ain't much more of a conversation to have.

Again, you see it every year. Check with the numbers guys if ya don't trust the eyes.


He's a top 5 shortstop offensively. Probably top 10 SS overall, but I could understand the argument against that. Because SS is a weak offensive position, his value is inflated.

No, I don't think he's a "premier" player. He's also an extremely streaky player. But, it's not enough to look at his numbers to determine his worth. They have to be looked at in the context of the SS position.

As for what he's worth in the trade market, I really don't know. I know the Indians had high demands for him at the Winter Meetings and they weren't met.

Is he worth a Shelby Miller/Trevor Rosenthal? I don't know. But if the Cardinals offered one + another pitching prospect, I'd strongly consider it.
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Re: Cabrera to STL?

Unread postby leadpipe » Sat Mar 09, 2013 10:52 pm

Happy fans don't equal ticket sales nearly as much as winning does.

And I would add - exactly what fan base are you risking pissing off? Cause the select few that showed up to games last year always show up to the games.

The bandwagonners that you draw from winning wouldn't know Asbrubal Cabrera (Let alone the guys they get in trade) if he came up and puched them in the zipper.

Jeezus, how many poeple outside of close family and friends are gonna say, "If ACab is not on the team, no way in holy hell I suppost those bastards..."

An organization that makes on the field baseball decisions catering to fans is a bad organization.
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Re: Cabrera to STL?

Unread postby bookelly » Sun Mar 10, 2013 8:11 am

leadpipe wrote:Happy fans don't equal ticket sales nearly as much as winning does.

And I would add - exactly what fan base are you risking pissing off? Cause the select few that showed up to games last year always show up to the games.

The bandwagonners that you draw from winning wouldn't know Asbrubal Cabrera (Let alone the guys they get in trade) if he came up and puched them in the zipper.

Jeezus, how many poeple outside of close family and friends are gonna say, "If ACab is not on the team, no way in holy hell I suppost those bastards..."

An organization that makes on the field baseball decisions catering to fans is a bad organization.


That's like saying a politician that makes decisions based on his electorate is a bad politician. Every pro sports organization has to take into account the reaction of it's fan base. They are after all in business to sell tickets. To endager the goodwill built-up this offseason by trading Droobs would certainly be a PR blow.

And would instantly kill any sort of chemistry this team has been building this ST.
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Re: Cabrera to STL?

Unread postby motherscratcher » Sun Mar 10, 2013 9:53 am

They are not politicians Boo.

If the Tribe trades Asdrubal and wins, people will come.

If the Tribe keeps Asdrubal and they lose, people will stay home.

Chemistry comes from winning.
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Re: Cabrera to STL?

Unread postby leadpipe » Sun Mar 10, 2013 12:17 pm

bookelly wrote:
leadpipe wrote:Happy fans don't equal ticket sales nearly as much as winning does.

And I would add - exactly what fan base are you risking pissing off? Cause the select few that showed up to games last year always show up to the games.

The bandwagonners that you draw from winning wouldn't know Asbrubal Cabrera (Let alone the guys they get in trade) if he came up and puched them in the zipper.

Jeezus, how many poeple outside of close family and friends are gonna say, "If ACab is not on the team, no way in holy hell I suppost those bastards..."

An organization that makes on the field baseball decisions catering to fans is a bad organization.


That's like saying a politician that makes decisions based on his electorate is a bad politician. Every pro sports organization has to take into account the reaction of it's fan base. They are after all in business to sell tickets. To endager the goodwill built-up this offseason by trading Droobs would certainly be a PR blow.

And would instantly kill any sort of chemistry this team has been building this ST.


This is really, really simple.

With very few exceptions, if you win, you draw. If you lose, you don't.

They trade Asdrubal, and are in the pennant race late, they'll draw. If they stink, they could damn near have September be "Hand Job Month" and they'd struggle to draw a crowd. Adrubal or no Addrubal.

Christ, it's like Asdrubal is to Cleveland what Cal Ripken was to Baltimore.
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Re: Cabrera to STL?

Unread postby statmasta » Sun Mar 10, 2013 1:25 pm

motherscratcher wrote:They are not politicians Boo.

If the Tribe trades Asdrubal and wins, people will come.

If the Tribe keeps Asdrubal and they lose, people will stay home.

Chemistry comes from winning.

But how long will it take? Nobody who wasn't previously going to go to games will look at the standings three weeks into April and say, "Hey! The Indians are 10-5! Let's go to some games!"

It won't even happen three months into the season. "Hey, the Indians are 35-25! Let's go to some games!" That doesn't happen. People write those things off to fluky starts, and they'd be right. Especially given the past two years, would we not have to assume they're fluky starts?

Attendance from winning only happens after an established track record of winning. Which this team doesn't have. So to get fans before you estbalish that winning track record, you need to do other things....like make the fans happy with high-profile player acquisitions (done) and then keep your core players (TBD).
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Re: Cabrera to STL?

Unread postby statmasta » Sun Mar 10, 2013 1:26 pm

leadpipe wrote:
bookelly wrote:
leadpipe wrote:Happy fans don't equal ticket sales nearly as much as winning does.

And I would add - exactly what fan base are you risking pissing off? Cause the select few that showed up to games last year always show up to the games.

The bandwagonners that you draw from winning wouldn't know Asbrubal Cabrera (Let alone the guys they get in trade) if he came up and puched them in the zipper.

Jeezus, how many poeple outside of close family and friends are gonna say, "If ACab is not on the team, no way in holy hell I suppost those bastards..."

An organization that makes on the field baseball decisions catering to fans is a bad organization.


That's like saying a politician that makes decisions based on his electorate is a bad politician. Every pro sports organization has to take into account the reaction of it's fan base. They are after all in business to sell tickets. To endager the goodwill built-up this offseason by trading Droobs would certainly be a PR blow.

And would instantly kill any sort of chemistry this team has been building this ST.


This is really, really simple.

With very few exceptions, if you win, you draw. If you lose, you don't.

They trade Asdrubal, and are in the pennant race late, they'll draw. If they stink, they could damn near have September be "Hand Job Month" and they'd struggle to draw a crowd. Adrubal or no Addrubal.

Christ, it's like Asdrubal is to Cleveland what Cal Ripken was to Baltimore.

If they're in the pennant race, they won't trade Asdrubal.

Trading Asdrubal would hurt their chances of winning this season. And they want to win as many games this year as possible.
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Re: Cabrera to STL?

Unread postby statmasta » Sun Mar 10, 2013 1:30 pm

I get the point that good baseball decisions are more important than keeping the fans happy. But my point is I highly doubt there's any baseball move out there for Asdrubal that's worth it. We're not going to be able to fleece the Cardinals, they're too smart of an organization. They're not the Mariners or Dodgers. So any deal we'd make with them, I assume, would be just tolerable baseball wise, and a disaster PR wise.

If you get a top flight arm for Asdrubal, take it. I just don't think that's going to happen. That's all. That's my take.
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