New TCF Project - Best Cleveland Athletes at Every Uniform #

[skatingtripods]

So far, through six pieces, this series has been outstanding. To those of you who are on Twitter, please link and retweet these articles to help get the views that these things deserve. Some of the best Cleveland sportswriters at work.

[danwismar]

A couple of notes from that #5 piece on Boudreau that I noticed and wanted to throw out to the board:

1) Was it just me, or did a few of those photos of a young Boudreau bear something of a resemblance to Grady Sizemore? (especially the one of the clubhouse celebration after the '48 series)

2) I laughed at the article title at the bottom of that Sport magazine cover with Boudreau. It was by Clark Griffith (then owner of the Washington Senators...his son Calvin would inherit the team and move them to become the Minnesota Twins). Dated February 1949, it was titled, "Big Money is Ruining Baseball"

Ha!

[swerb]

So far, through six pieces, this series has been outstanding. To those of you who are on Twitter, please link and retweet these articles to help get the views that these things deserve. Some of the best Cleveland sportswriters at work.

Put @theclevelandfan in your tweets so they show up on my @connect page so I don't forget to RT them.

[skatingtripods]

So far, through six pieces, this series has been outstanding. To those of you who are on Twitter, please link and retweet these articles to help get the views that these things deserve. Some of the best Cleveland sportswriters at work.

Put @theclevelandfan in your tweets so they show up on my @connect page so I don't forget to RT them.

Well, Peeker and I do tweet them from your account. I was mostly speaking to the other posters who read them. Dan, Al, Tom, Jeff, and CDT usually tweet/RT all of our articles.

[pup]

Any thoughts to putting these together into a book at the end?

[gotribe31]

Any thoughts to putting these together into a book at the end?

That'd be pretty cool. How hard is it to get something like that into an e-book on Amazon or something even?

[skatingtripods]

Any thoughts to putting these together into a book at the end?

Told my fiancee about the articles and she said that it would make a great coffee table book. So, you're not the only one who has mentioned this idea.

Not sure. Maybe we could email Jonathan Knight and see what it costs and send out some feelers to see if we would sell enough of them to make it worthwhile.

[pup]

Any thoughts to putting these together into a book at the end?

Told my fiancee about the articles and she said that it would make a great coffee table book. So, you're not the only one who has mentioned this idea.

Not sure. Maybe we could email Jonathan Knight and see what it costs and send out some feelers to see if we would sell enough of them to make it worthwhile.

Doesn't Buff have some connections?

[peeker643]

Concern I'd have is 50-99 are gona be all Browns and not a great deal of debate over which ones.

I think you'd have to broaden it to Buckeyes (and I would anyway, honestly) to keep it fresh later and more interesting now.

I think if you do that you could sell some books. Might take a re-start or additional thought but it broadens the market and adds some diversity.

[peeker643]

"By the Numbers: the Best Cleveland and OSU Sports Stars to Wear the Colors"

Some shit like that with a brief explanation of how deeply invested in OSU NE Ohio really is.

[gotribe31]

Concern I'd have is 50-99 are gona be all Browns and not a great deal of debate over which ones.

I think you'd have to broaden it to Buckeyes (and I would anyway, honestly) to keep it fresh later and more interesting now.

I think if you do that you could sell some books. Might take a re-start or additional thought but it broadens the market and adds some diversity.

What in the Hell's diversity?

Agreed, I'd add Buckeyes. Won't be dominated by tOSU guys anyway since they have at most a 4-year run, but you'd really rather have Ernie Davis than Archie Griffin at #45? Would you want to look Jim Stillwagon in the eye and tell him that Billy Yates is the best #68? I wouldn't. Would give us a better option at #10 than Pat Tabler too.

Would make for a really interesting debate in some of the smaller digits though, which would't be a bad thing. We've almost had too easy of a concensus so far. #19 and #25 are going to be tough, but not sure who would have won at #2 if Doss and Carter were available. At least, before Kyrie proved to be superhuman the past couple of weeks.

[Larvell Blanks]

Do what needs to be done for #'s 50 and above but leave #90 free for one of the most dazzling b-ballers we've seen in quote a while




sorry I couldn't find a pic of a ball slipping through his mitts or flying off his face but give me time

[skatingtripods]

I don't think 19 is tough at all.

Peeker's right, we'd have to add Buckeyes to the mix for the high numbers. At least we'd get a guy like Jose Mesa at #49. Orel Hershiser at #55. Paul Shuey at #53, maybe a couple others.

I don't necessarily think it's a bad thing to have all Browns up there, since it seems like #1 up to around #49 will predominantly be Indians. Especially if we really want to stick to the Cleveland theme.

[danwismar]

Well, as the writers involved know, we kicked around the idea of including Buckeyes, and the decision was made not to. Thinking about it, there would be only a handful of no-brainers for Buckeyes...depending of course on how far back you want to go.

I would suggest going forward we could at least make mention of well-known OSU players among the candidates. At #13 I haven't officially flipped the coin between Vizquel and Frank Ryan yet, but if you guys think I'm not going to mention MoC, you're crazy.

[Squints]

As a board memeber who actually looks forward to these articles, I think you all should just stick to your guns and go on with your original idea of sticking with the Cleveland teams. Our city, for most of it's history, has only the 3 major sports teams to choose these players from- with all do respect to indoor soccer and the Barons. We aren't New York, Chicago or even Minneapolis for that matter. Therefore, there will be those, for lack of a better word, "tougher" decisions where there may not be a lot of quality choices like at 10.

Anyways, again, keep up the good work. These articles have been exceptional. Keep on asking the board's opinion as there are some that won't seriously say Greg Little for #15.

#13- Frank Ryan. The field general of the last major Cleveland team who one a title who threw 3 TDs in that game and had a productive career. I love Omar, but until we
get another title, Frank has this almost mythical-like existance, especially to those of us too young to remember 1964.

[skatingtripods]

Looks like 9-12 is about done. Looks like Glover, Dick Snyder, Z, Robbie Alomar. Open for some more discussion on #11 and #12, since #10 will go up tomorrow. So, if anybody wants to chime in with another name, feel free.

Looking ahead, here are some considerations for 13-16:

13: Vizquel, Frank Ryan 14: Doby, Otto Graham, Julio Franco 15: Sandy Alomar, Jock Callander Johnny Allen, 16: Gotta be Felix Fermin or Tomo Ohka; Josh Cribbs seems to be about it.

[peeker643]

All due respect to Larry Doby, but if Otto Graham isn't the lock of all locks then something is wrong, IMO.

Looks like 9-12 is about done. Looks like Glover, Dick Snyder, Z, Robbie Alomar. Open for some more discussion on #11 and #12, since #10 will go up tomorrow. So, if anybody wants to chime in with another name, feel free.

Looking ahead, here are some considerations for 13-16:

13: Vizquel, Frank Ryan 14: Doby, Otto Graham, Julio Franco 15: Sandy Alomar, Jock Callander Johnny Allen, 16: Gotta be Felix Fermin or Tomo Ohka; Josh Cribbs seems to be about it.

[Squints]

^^^^^

No doubt. Doby should of asked Boudreau for #10.

I'm not saying he should be ranked over Cribbs, but Zoran Karic needs consideration at #16. Personally, I would rank him, his career and his 3 championships over someone who is best known for running to daylight and f'ing up out routes. But he is a man, shows up every Sunday, leaves it out on the field for a bunch of crappy teams, loves Cleveland and the Browns, plus he ran to daylight better than anyone in NFL history. That counts, and I am a realist.

Also, Milt Plum went wore #16, went to two pro bowls but had to follow #14.

[Squints]

Has anyone come across a website that has the uniform numerical history for our teams? I found one for the Cavs, but haven't found any for the Browns or Indians.

[skatingtripods]

Has anyone come across a website that has the uniform numerical history for our teams? I found one for the Cavs, but haven't found any for the Browns or Indians.

We got a .pdf link from the Browns with a list of their all-time numbers.

As for the Indians, I've been using this page, scrolling to the bottom, and then just going back year-by-year with the previous year link at the bottom.

[danwismar]

Squints...thanks for the comments and input. That's exactly the kind of stuff from readers we wanted...and haven't been getting near enough of. Appreciate the compliments too.

[Squints]

Thoroughly enjoyed the pieces on Frank Ryan and Otto Graham. One should expect these articles to be plagiarized in Pluto's next book. Awesome job.

Seems like 17, 18 and 19 are no-brainers. Although something needs to be said for Travis Fryman's consistency and professionalism on a team of higher profile stars. And it's unfortunate for Bernie that he shares his number with the greatest rhp of all time.

[gotribe31]

Thanks Squints.

Yeah, we're kicking around what to do for #'s like 14, 19, 25 etc that have legit legends behind other, slightly better legends. Kind of a "best of the rest" piece or something like that.

[kman_holla8]

Do what needs to be done for #'s 50 and above but leave #90 free for one of the most dazzling b-ballers we've seen in quote a while




sorry I couldn't find a pic of a ball slipping through his mitts or flying off his face but give me time

Does this mean we have to look forward to Baron Davis at #85, lol...

[kman_holla8]

Do what needs to be done for #'s 50 and above but leave #90 free for one of the most dazzling b-ballers we've seen in quote a while

sorry I couldn't find a pic of a ball slipping through his mitts or flying off his face but give me time

Does this mean we have to look forward to Baron Davis at #85, lol...

Dave Logan seems to have a possibility, but I never saw him play. He has defensive statistics on profootballreference.com. Was he part-time defense or maybe he recovered fumbles on special teams??

[Squints]

I would think that 21 is all but posted and the way this is going I would think it's Eric Metcalf and deservedly so. But, and this is my last pimping of indoor soccer, but Hector Marinaro deserves you honorable mention. Of course I would put him over Metcalf for the same line of thinking Karic over Cribbs, but that is just me and I realize that. Metcalf is the poster child for Belichick Era frsutration, but he was so damn exciting when he got loose. Marinaro was everything Karic was, but better, for those 3 championship teams, a Pippen/Jordan-like comparison and relationship.

[Squints]

If you are all still debating 25, I would officially like to vote/support Mark Price. He was the floor general for those Cavs teams and their most important player. Thome great, but was he the most important player? Two championship appearances for Thome, should of been more and should of had at least one title. Price played in the Jordan Era, many a hall of famer was denied a ring during this era. Thome's numbers are greater but they are starting to be watered down the longer he hangs on- is he doing this to distance himself from the steroid era?? Mark Price embodied Cleveland, Thome and his rock bolted for Philly

And most importantly, what pasty kid growing up in the shadows of the Coliseum didn't pretend he was Price playing ball in the driveway? When playing youth basketball- we perfected the pick and roll. And to our coach's dismay- if we had a 3-1 break we would always pull up at the arc and hoist a three, because that's what Price did. He had a higher percentage rate.

[fairvis]

World B. Free over Bob Lemon? Really? Still think that's a bit weak.

My take on the next few... some decent debates, actually.

#23 - He who shall not be named
#24 - Manny or Early Wynn
#25 - Thome/Price

[gotribe31]

If you are all still debating 25, I would officially like to vote/support Mark Price. He was the floor general for those Cavs teams and their most important player. Thome great, but was he the most important player? Two championship appearances for Thome, should of been more and should of had at least one title. Price played in the Jordan Era, many a hall of famer was denied a ring during this era. Thome's numbers are greater but they are starting to be watered down the longer he hangs on- is he doing this to distance himself from the steroid era?? Mark Price embodied Cleveland, Thome and his rock bolted for Philly

And most importantly, what pasty kid growing up in the shadows of the Coliseum didn't pretend he was Price playing ball in the driveway? When playing youth basketball- we perfected the pick and roll. And to our coach's dismay- if we had a 3-1 break we would always pull up at the arc and hoist a three, because that's what Price did. He had a higher percentage rate.

I still think going into the HOF with an Indians hat gives the edge to Thome.

[skatingtripods]

I still think going into the HOF with an Indians hat gives the edge to Thome.

Agree. Plus, Thome is the franchise record-holder in home runs (by nearly 100), home runs in a season, and walks, third in OBP, SLG, and OPS, fourth in total bases, second in RBI, and the whole Hall of Fame thing.

That doesn't take anything away from Price.

[googleeph2]

How about #26?

No Cavs at all...

Indians look like a battle between Boog Powell, Brook Jacoby, Bob Wickman ( I will have to link A Clayman's Jeff Manto article though- was an all-timer).

Browns- between Ray Renfro, Dino Hall... some nice anecdotes to throw in on others...

[danwismar]

Would welcome some input on #27 as well....here's the list I put together, in approximate order (IMO) of their importance as Cleveland sports figures...no Cavs worth mentioning.

Herb Score
Thom Darden
Jaret Wright
Leon Wagner
Mell Hall
Walter "The Flea" Roberts
Al Gross
Ray Ellis
Eric Wright
Willie Kirkland
Miguel Dilone

For some reason I hear a voice from down I-71 calling to me...."Eddie...Eddie"

[Larvell Blanks]

^ I think between Darden and Score, it's Herb by a narrow edge based on his 1st 2 seasons alone.

[peeker643]

If you are all still debating 25, I would officially like to vote/support Mark Price. He was the floor general for those Cavs teams and their most important player. Thome great, but was he the most important player? Two championship appearances for Thome, should of been more and should of had at least one title. Price played in the Jordan Era, many a hall of famer was denied a ring during this era. Thome's numbers are greater but they are starting to be watered down the longer he hangs on- is he doing this to distance himself from the steroid era?? Mark Price embodied Cleveland, Thome and his rock bolted for Philly

And most importantly, what pasty kid growing up in the shadows of the Coliseum didn't pretend he was Price playing ball in the driveway? When playing youth basketball- we perfected the pick and roll. And to our coach's dismay- if we had a 3-1 break we would always pull up at the arc and hoist a three, because that's what Price did. He had a higher percentage rate.

I still think going into the HOF with an Indians hat gives the edge to Thome.

Hard to argue not giving the nod to any HoFer, IMO. Specifically one whose majority of HoF-earning creds came as a Cleveland player.

Price was terrific. But Price was not a HoFer.

[Squints]

Vote Score at 27.

I wouldn't count the HOF chickens before they hatch on Thome. We just saw what the voters are thinking by basically black-balling anyone who played the majority of their career in steroid era. We can't say that 600 homers will automatically get you in because 3000 hits is not getting you in either. His reliance on the DH, especially in the last 6 years won't endear him to the voters either- see Edgar Martinez. A google search of Jim Thome and hall of fame yields that debate, most people look at him as basically a one-trick pony and whether or not that is enough to get in. Look all, I loved him when he was here, both times, but, if I take off my TCF glasses for a moment, I wouldn't be surprised if it takes him a while to get in.

If you are selecting him over Price, and it seems to going that way, I get it, but not if the argument is only that one is a hall of famer and the other one is not. Price is high on the leader board in most career categories for the Cavs- except rebounds, but that would be like holding it against Thome that he was not a triples kind of guy. I can't get excited that Thome is the alltime leader in walks, when he is the all time leader in strikeouts, by over 500, from the next guy (Pronk). He and Price have the same amount of rings, but Thome had far more and better opportunities.

I said my peace, I look forward to the piece on Thome at 25, it's not like I think he is undeserving. Again, the vast majority of installments in this project have been exceptional. Keep up the great work guys

[Squints]

Hard to argue not giving the nod to any HoFer, IMO. Specifically one whose majority of HoF-earning creds came as a Cleveland player.

Price was terrific. But Price was not a HoFer.

You all just selected a glorified journeyman baller over a Tribe inducted HOF pitcher at #21.

[googleeph2]

Hard to argue not giving the nod to any HoFer, IMO. Specifically one whose majority of HoF-earning creds came as a Cleveland player.

Price was terrific. But Price was not a HoFer.

You all just selected a glorified journeyman baller over a Tribe inducted HOF pitcher at #21.

Good point, except he wasn't just any glorified journeyman baller- he was a one of a kind glorified journeyman baller, whom Joe Tait said was responsible for keeping the NBA in Cleveland.

[peeker643]

Hard to argue not giving the nod to any HoFer, IMO. Specifically one whose majority of HoF-earning creds came as a Cleveland player.

Price was terrific. But Price was not a HoFer.

You all just selected a glorified journeyman baller over a Tribe inducted HOF pitcher at #21.

I have an opinion and not a vote. Kind of sitting back and enjoying this like anyone else. But my general rule would be HoF trumps all.

[Larvell Blanks]

I know that #29 will be Top Dawg but hopefully consideration was made towards Andre Thornton.

[danwismar]

I know that #29 will be Top Dawg but hopefully consideration was made towards Andre Thornton.

Ask, and you shall receive. Nice column by Jesse.

[Larvell Blanks]

Quite a welcome surprise. Great article by Jesse.

As hard as it was/is to imagine the events of that October night as a Tribe fan, it was much harder a a 9yr old who was a friend of the family and knew and played with little Andre and baby Theresa. The Thornton family, along with the Blanks family moved into the apratment complex we lived when both were traded to Cleveland. Hearing the news of the van accident and learning the fate of Miss Gertie and Theresa was my first time dealing with the loss of someone close. Watching how both Andre and Andre Jr not only learned to live their lives without their 2 loved ones but also celebrated and reminded people of the joy that both Gertie and Theresa brought to the lives of everyone around them. I believe that Andre's career was a reflection of the time he went through the tragic events on that October night. He took nothing for granted and didn't focus on more, he was content with what he had b/c he knew first hand how something could be snatched away in a moment. As Jesse noted, he carried himself with a class and dignity seldom seen in professional sports, I first noticed this class and dignity when seeing him initially deal with the loss of his wife and daughter. It's just a reflection of the overall person.

[peeker643]

Excellent article, Jesse. Like you I remember Thornton being the one light in a dark era. Not as engaging or as 'loud' as World B Free, in many ways he's responsible for the Tribe surviving here during his tenure, IMO. Much like Free is credited with 'saving' the Cavs from the Stepien era.

[googleeph2]

Nice job on #30, Jeff. Although I feel like stating my personal opinion on Paul Brown with signing black players- he had no problem with them on the team, of course. But he wasn't going to go crazy and have TOO many.

It may have been prudent- I don't know. But there was a limit to PB's 'just wanting to win'. As there was with the Brooklyn Dodgers at first, as well.

[danwismar]

I'm jumping the gun here on my piece on #32, but there were zero black players in either the NFL or AAFC before 1946, and PB is credited (but probably not enough)with helping to break the color line...with Willis and Marion Motley, both signed before Jackie Robinson joined the Dodgers. That is not to say Brown was a pioneer of racial equality by disposition. It was about getting the best players and winning.

There was an unwritten and unacknowledged mandate in the early days of NFL that no team could have more than 10 black players. As a league-wide imperative, they were afraid to allow blacks to dominate the sport, fearing it could alienate their white fans. Just saying this was not a limit that was dictated by Paul Brown. More like it was dictated to him.

[googleeph2]

Dan, how long did the 10-black-player limit last? I know eg. the Redskins imposed their own moratorium longer than other teams...

[danwismar]

Not sure about that, although the Jim Brown bio I'm reading makes clear that the Redskins owner was a particularly nasty piece of work. PB was trying to trade Bobby Mitchell to the Redskins (because he coveted their high draft pick which he wanted to use on that other Syracuse #44, Ernie Davis) George Preston Marshall was the Washington owner, and he fought hard for years to keep blacks off his team. Only when the team moved into a government owned building, forcing him to comply with federal anti-discrimination laws in hiring, was he forced to relent. He finally did trade for Mitchell of course, who went on to the Hall of Fame as a Redskin. Where's karma when you need it?

Lots of incredible stories surrounding the Brown-Mitchell-Brown troika that would be excellent fodder for a future article, since they probably won't make it into this one.

[fairvis]

Jesus, Dan. That was effin' brilliant. Well done good sir.