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Tribe Signs Bourn

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Tribe Signs Bourn

Unread postby andrew6586 » Mon Feb 11, 2013 9:34 pm

Per Heyman on twitter: $48 million over 4 years with option in 2018.
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Re: Tribe Signs Bourn

Unread postby RedDawg53 » Mon Feb 11, 2013 9:41 pm

andrew6586 wrote:Per Heyman on twitter: $48 million over 4 years with option in 2018.


Awesome! Larry Dolan is still cheap tho ;-) ;) :wink:
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Re: Tribe Signs Bourn

Unread postby motherscratcher » Mon Feb 11, 2013 9:54 pm

Wow. I did not see that coming.
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Re: Tribe Signs Bourn

Unread postby Adverb Harry » Mon Feb 11, 2013 10:08 pm

For one or two years, I like it. After that...yikes. Happy to see the team really nutting up here, but I just don't know how wise this is. Could be a really good lineup this year if they don't deal anyone away (Brantley, Stubbs). Just don't like the amount of years at all.
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Re: Tribe Signs Bourn

Unread postby scott » Mon Feb 11, 2013 10:11 pm

motherscratcher wrote:Wow. I did not see that coming.


Not at all. I like his game.
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Re: Tribe Signs Bourn

Unread postby skatingtripods » Mon Feb 11, 2013 10:12 pm

Um, wow...
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Re: Tribe Signs Bourn

Unread postby Dnthateonthepronk » Mon Feb 11, 2013 10:43 pm

So much for top MLB free agents not wanting to come to Cleveland :hide:



So Lohse is next :lmfao:


But seriously though they shoulda just taken the 56 million for Swisher and the 48 million for Bourn and just gave it to CC :dead: ;-) ;) :wink:
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Re: Tribe Signs Bourn

Unread postby TribeinLA » Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:11 am

I have to ask this...is Drew Stubbs truly needed now? I like him...just wanted to know what y'all think.
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Re: Tribe Signs Bourn

Unread postby British_Pharaoh » Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:17 am

TribeinLA wrote:I have to ask this...is Drew Stubbs truly needed now? I like him...just wanted to know what y'all think.

I like him, and I think Swisher playing the lion share of his games at 1B/DH means we can (and should) keep hold of a superior defender like Stubbs in the OF. I think if any of our OFers are to be traded it will be Brantley as he can actually bring something of worth in return.
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Re: Tribe Signs Bourn

Unread postby RedDawg53 » Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:22 am

British_Pharaoh wrote:
TribeinLA wrote:I have to ask this...is Drew Stubbs truly needed now? I like him...just wanted to know what y'all think.

I like him, and I think Swisher playing the lion share of his games at 1B/DH means we can (and should) keep hold of a superior defender like Stubbs in the OF. I think if any of our OFers are to be traded it will be Brantley as he can actually bring something of worth in return.


I was just thinking the same thing about Michael Brantley. I've never been a hugeBrantley fan. If the Tribe can bring in more pitching, then by all means trade him.
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Re: Tribe Signs Bourn

Unread postby Kingpin74 » Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:24 am

We're still probably looking at Jungle Terry and Ryan the stadium host as our 4th and 5th starters, but there just didn't seem to be value in the free agent starter market this year. The lineup looks awesome and we can always hit the trade market if we're in contention this summer. I've been as critical of the front office and ownership as anyone but this offseason couldn't have gone much better.
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Re: Tribe Signs Bourn

Unread postby British_Pharaoh » Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:28 am

RedDawg53 wrote:
British_Pharaoh wrote:
TribeinLA wrote:I have to ask this...is Drew Stubbs truly needed now? I like him...just wanted to know what y'all think.

I like him, and I think Swisher playing the lion share of his games at 1B/DH means we can (and should) keep hold of a superior defender like Stubbs in the OF. I think if any of our OFers are to be traded it will be Brantley as he can actually bring something of worth in return.


I was just thinking the same thing about Michael Brantley. I've never been a hugeBrantley fan. If the Tribe can bring in more pitching, then by all means trade him.


I'm a Brantley fan and I do think he can be a valuable player, but if you can get good pitching from a trade of him (and possibly a prospect would be needed to) then I concede that you have to do it.
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Re: Tribe Signs Bourn

Unread postby RedDawg53 » Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:30 am

http://teamleaks.com/New-York-Mets/indi ... ew-stubbs/



Brian Erni, MetsBlog.com:

"Stubbs has gaps in his game; he strikes out a ton and doesn’t walk a lot. Last year’s .213/.277/.333 line was pretty abysmal by any standard, and not exactly ideal for a guy the Mets might want to slot towards the top of the order. It’s worth noting he did battle an oblique injury throughout the summer. But despite the subpar 2012, Stubbs could fill some glaring needs. Last season,the Mets struggled mightily against left handed pitching, and for all his shortcomings, hitting lefties wasn’t Stubbs’ problem in ’12 (.283 with seven home runs in 138 at bats vs. .186 with seven homers in 355 at bats against righties). With the pop he has in his bat, and the ability to play above average defense in center, I think he has the potential to be a nice add to the current outfield mix. Is he flawed? Sure, but there is no perfect fit available right now, and the Mets might need to roll the dice on a wild card."
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Re: Tribe Signs Bourn

Unread postby GodHatesClevelandSport » Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:39 am

This must make Michael Brantley very happy, since his career OPS is one point higher than Michael Bourn. (cash)
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Re: Tribe Signs Bourn

Unread postby skatingtripods » Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:40 am

TribeinLA wrote:I have to ask this...is Drew Stubbs truly needed now? I like him...just wanted to know what y'all think.


He's an ideal 4th OF from a defensive and speed standpoint. Could be a huge asset as a pinch runner, not that the Indians have a lot of guys to pinch run for anymore (Reynolds, Chisenhall). There's been some talk about a Brantley/Stubbs platoon:

Brantley v. LHP: .246/.309/.311/.620
Brantley v. RHP: .286/.337/.403/.740

Stubbs v. RHP: .228/.301/.355/.655
Stubbs v. LHP: .276/.344/.476/.820

It would make sense, though I don't think Brantley would respond to it very well. The Indians did face a RH SP in 109 of 162 games, so Brantley would still get plenty of playing time.

If the right offer comes along for either guy, you probably have to take it, but there's nothing wrong with keeping both.
Last edited by skatingtripods on Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tribe Signs Bourn

Unread postby skatingtripods » Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:50 am

GodHatesClevelandSport wrote:This must make Michael Brantley very happy, since his career OPS is one point higher than Michael Bourn. (cash)


Majority of Bourn's value is in his 276 SB, 69 defensive runs saved, and four straight years of 4+ WAR. Brantley has 39 SB and -11 defensive runs saved (-21 in CF) in four seasons. Five points lower wOBA for Brantley. I get the age difference and the tougher league, but, Brantley's nowhere near the same skill set as Bourn.

I'd say Brantley would get 3 yrs, 4-6M per on the open market, and 6M is really aiming high.
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Re: Tribe Signs Bourn

Unread postby GodHatesClevelandSport » Tue Feb 12, 2013 12:02 pm

skatingtripods wrote:
GodHatesClevelandSport wrote:This must make Michael Brantley very happy, since his career OPS is one point higher than Michael Bourn. (cash)


Majority of Bourn's value is in his 276 SB, 69 defensive runs saved, and four straight years of 4+ WAR. Brantley has 39 SB and -11 defensive runs saved (-21 in CF) in four seasons. Five points lower wOBA for Brantley. I get the age difference and the tougher league, but, Brantley's nowhere near the same skill set as Bourn.

I'd say Brantley would get 3 yrs, 4-6M per on the open market, and 6M is really aiming high.


Admittedly haven't looked into Bourn's defense. I assume he's good since he's almost exclusively a centerfielder. I don't know how this pushes Swisher to first, since Stubbs blows and he'd be the one to move to RF, right? A quick check of his numbers shows he makes few errors and hardly ever throws anyone out. I'd imagine speed is the key to his defense. Rag-arm Brantley actually has one more assist than Bourn over the last two years.

I am concerned about Bourn's speed. Once elite, he's severely dropped off from three years ago. He's also led the league twice in caught stealing while leading in SBs just three times. So is he all that good at stealing bases, or just a volume stealer? I do feel baserunning is a very disappointing part of Brantley's game.

I feel signing Bourn, Reynolds, and Swisher make better headlines than a baseball team. But at least they show that the front office realizes they need to spend some money and play with the big boys rather than sit back and run Shelley Duncan and Jack Hannahan out there while trying to attract people to the park with a beer and brat deal.
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Re: Tribe Signs Bourn

Unread postby skatingtripods » Tue Feb 12, 2013 12:15 pm

GodHatesClevelandSport wrote:Admittedly haven't looked into Bourn's defense. I assume he's good since he's almost exclusively a centerfielder. I don't know how this pushes Swisher to first, since Stubbs blows and he'd be the one to move to RF, right? A quick check of his numbers shows he makes few errors and hardly ever throws anyone out. I'd imagine speed is the key to his defense. Rag-arm Brantley actually has one more assist than Bourn over the last two years.


Well, I think you take Stubbs's good defense, good speed, and mediocre bat and put it in right field to help your ballclub's defense overall. Swisher is a below average outfielder and very slightly above average at 1B. Reynolds is below average everywhere on the diamond, so you put him as the DH.

If you hide Stubbs ninth, he might not be that bad. When he does get on, you'll have great speed. If he strikes out to end the inning, Bourn leads off. He gives you a little pop at the bottom of the order as well.

But, yes, a Brantley-Bourn-Stubbs OF better catch everything, because they're not throwing anybody out.

I am concerned about Bourn's speed. Once elite, he's severely dropped off from three years ago. He's also led the league twice in caught stealing while leading in SBs just three times. So is he all that good at stealing bases, or just a volume stealer? I do feel baserunning is a very disappointing part of Brantley's game.


This is a concern. Fangraphs wrote about it two weeks ago.

You're going to get thrown out when you steal as much as Bourn does. But, 76% last season is pretty good. It's not the 81% of 2011, but it's still good. Personally, I think any concern about Bourn's offensive prowess is justified.

I feel signing Bourn, Reynolds, and Swisher make better headlines than a baseball team.


I disagree 100% with this. They're all above average offensive performers, both for their position and overall (yes, even Bourn was). They give you lineup balance and are very clear upgrades over what was previously here. The Bourn and Swisher deals may wind up proving to be one season too long, but that's a bridge you cross when you get to it.
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Re: Tribe Signs Bourn

Unread postby cappy1920 » Tue Feb 12, 2013 12:18 pm

Stubbs could be our Franklin Gutierrez of 2007...
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Re: Tribe Signs Bourn

Unread postby 1Perry » Tue Feb 12, 2013 12:23 pm

I'm all for Brantley-Bourn-Stubbs in the outfield. Swisher-Reynolds 1st-Dh and a "well we never quite got around to making a shirt with your name on it Jason".
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Re: Tribe Signs Bourn

Unread postby GodHatesClevelandSport » Tue Feb 12, 2013 1:40 pm

By the way, Stubbs has never played right field. It's a much easier transition from center to right than the other way, but still.
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Re: Tribe Signs Bourn

Unread postby TribeinLA » Tue Feb 12, 2013 1:48 pm

I think Brantley is surprsingly the fish out of water. He is not a true anything (yet)...certainly not going to steal 40-60 bases like Bourn would and cannot play the outfield as well as Stubbs (yet).

My God how big is Ubaldo's success/suckiness going to be big for this team? We are now built KIND of like Toronto -- lots of pop and speed but not a clear cut 1-2-3 rotation. I think Brantley is a good player, but nothing past that. I am sure he's not about to be the next Joe DiMaggio. Signing Bourn, I think, has to move out either/or Stubbs/Brantley even if Swish moves to 1b. We need more power in the rotation.

Regrardless, I like the move. How great is it to finally have some decent star power on this team and not having to put up with Dellichaels or Shelley Duncan or Grady's health or Eduardo Perez? I am liking the money that the new tv deal has gotten us and what we are doing with it. I thought for sure the front office would have kept it all.
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Re: Tribe Signs Bourn

Unread postby motherscratcher » Tue Feb 12, 2013 1:55 pm

It's unnecessary to pick the "best" outfield.

Whether you think the Brantley/Stubbs/Bourn OF with Swish 1B and Reynolds DH...Or Keep Swish in the OF, Reynolds at 1B and Stubbs the 4th OF

There are 162 games. I'm sure we will see plenty of both of those sets depending on matchups and other factors.

I will say, I'm not excited to consider Brantley in a platoon just yet. He took a big step forward last year and I'd prefer to see if he improves even more. Not going to figure that out in a platoon. Heck, even Peek was a Brantley fan by seasons end.
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Re: Tribe Signs Bourn

Unread postby skatingtripods » Tue Feb 12, 2013 2:00 pm

TribeinLA wrote:We are now built KIND of like Toronto -- lots of pop and speed but not a clear cut 1-2-3 rotation.


I think you mean we are built like LAST SEASON's Toronto. Considering this season, their 1-5 are Dickey-Morrow-Buehrle-Johnson-Romero. Josh Johnson is the best #4 starter in all of baseball.
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Re: Tribe Signs Bourn

Unread postby pup » Tue Feb 12, 2013 2:04 pm

My favorite part of the entire discussion (to go along with the Trout debate from last year)...amazingly stealing bases is important.

I thought stats told us they were negligible and not worth the risk.

A few more years and wins will matter again. :hide:
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Re: Tribe Signs Bourn

Unread postby skatingtripods » Tue Feb 12, 2013 2:20 pm

pup wrote:My favorite part of the entire discussion (to go along with the Trout debate from last year)...amazingly stealing bases is important.

I thought stats told us they were negligible and not worth the risk.


From 2009-2012, Bourn's baserunning has been worth 40.6 additional runs above average: http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?p ... &sort=20,d

If you don't want to click the link, because numbers scare you, that's 12.5 runs more than the next highest player (Andrus) over that time.

No, stolen bases aren't worth much. However, with Bourn, the amount of infield and bunt hits he picks up help his BABip and having him on base from what would be a ground out from other batters has value.

There's no quantifiable way, yet, that I've seen for determining the value of turning a ground ball out for most guys into a double.
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Re: Tribe Signs Bourn

Unread postby motherscratcher » Tue Feb 12, 2013 2:40 pm

skatingtripods wrote:
TribeinLA wrote:We are now built KIND of like Toronto -- lots of pop and speed but not a clear cut 1-2-3 rotation.


I think you mean we are built like LAST SEASON's Toronto. Considering this season, their 1-5 are Dickey-Morrow-Buehrle-Johnson-Romero. Josh Johnson is the best #4 starter in all of baseball.


Isn't Johnson the #2 starter there? He's better than Morrow and Buehrle isn't he?
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Re: Tribe Signs Bourn

Unread postby idoctribefan » Tue Feb 12, 2013 2:53 pm

Jonah Keri weighs in on the Bourn signing....thinks the Tribe got great value.

http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-trian ... hael-bourn
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Re: Tribe Signs Bourn

Unread postby skatingtripods » Tue Feb 12, 2013 5:14 pm

motherscratcher wrote:
skatingtripods wrote:
TribeinLA wrote:We are now built KIND of like Toronto -- lots of pop and speed but not a clear cut 1-2-3 rotation.


I think you mean we are built like LAST SEASON's Toronto. Considering this season, their 1-5 are Dickey-Morrow-Buehrle-Johnson-Romero. Josh Johnson is the best #4 starter in all of baseball.


Isn't Johnson the #2 starter there? He's better than Morrow and Buehrle isn't he?


Jays announced their rotation already and the order I gave is straight from Twitter.

I don't know if he's better than Morrow, but I'd put him ahead of Buehrle. Buehrle separates the two RHP, so that makes sense.

Either way, if Romero regains any of his form, that rotation is dynamite.

I really hate that the Indians have to start the season by facing a knuckleballer.
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Re: Tribe Signs Bourn

Unread postby scrambler » Tue Feb 12, 2013 5:19 pm

motherscratcher wrote:It's unnecessary to pick the "best" outfield.

Whether you think the Brantley/Stubbs/Bourn OF with Swish 1B and Reynolds DH...Or Keep Swish in the OF, Reynolds at 1B and Stubbs the 4th OF

There are 162 games. I'm sure we will see plenty of both of those sets depending on matchups and other factors.

I will say, I'm not excited to consider Brantley in a platoon just yet. He took a big step forward last year and I'd prefer to see if he improves even more. Not going to figure that out in a platoon. Heck, even Peek was a Brantley fan by seasons end.

I agree. I don't get the Stubbs infatuation. Guy is a pathetic player, period. He had a nice first full season and has declined markedly the last two years...while Brantley is on the opposite track, he has improved markedly his last two years and was so far and away vastly superior to Stubbs last year it isn't even funny. Stubbs can really, really run and can go catch the ball and has some power. Unfortunately he can't hit at all. A power hitter with a .610 OPS is sad, an OBP of .277 is sad. He's also a 180-210 strikeout guy playing full time. He has also played in one of the most if not the most hitter friendly park in baseball.

Yes, I'm assuming the logic is the change of scenery will greatly help him and turn him around. IF he can revert back to his rookie form he'll be a plus player. Of course we say those same things about Ubaldo Jimenez. All I see in Drew Stubbs is a player who had gotten significantly worse as an offensive player two straight years. In Michael Brantley I see the exact opposite.
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Re: Tribe Signs Bourn

Unread postby scrambler » Tue Feb 12, 2013 5:35 pm

So in other and shorter words for me Drew Stubbs=Ubaldo Jimenez. My role for Drew Stubbs on this team is to pinch run for Nick Swishwer in the 8th inning and go play defense in the outfield in the 9th. My role for Ubaldo Jimenz is Dan Wheeler circa 2012. that's all.

and I'll add, I hope I'm wrong about Drew Stubbs.
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Re: Tribe Signs Bourn

Unread postby scrambler » Tue Feb 12, 2013 5:40 pm

TribeinLA wrote:I have to ask this...is Drew Stubbs truly needed now? I like him...just wanted to know what y'all think.


No he stinks and is not needed unless you like guys who really stink. I do not like him as a baseball player, don't know the guy, so may be a nice guy. But no sane person can look at 2011 and 2012 and not come to the conclusion that his stench as an offensive player is so overwhelming he should not see the field as a starting player.
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