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Tribe tracking Bourn

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Tribe tracking Bourn

Unread postby British_Pharaoh » Sat Dec 22, 2012 5:03 pm

http://www.examiner.com/article/clevela ... hael-bourn

Jim Bowden of ESPN sent out a tweet that stated the market for free agent outfielder Michael Bourn included the Seattle Mariners, Cleveland Indians, Miami Marlins, Philadelphia Phillies, New York Mets, and Texas Rangers.

This comes as somewhat of a surprise as the Indians are aggressively pursuing free agent outfielder Nick Swisher as well. However, the Indians were reportedly interested in trading for Bourn at the trade deadline in 2011.

Bourn finished the 2012 season with the Atlanta Braves batting .274 with nine home runs and 57 RBIs. He also put up a respectable .348 OBP as well.

Whether the pursuit of Bourn is simply an insurance policy in case the Tribe is unable to land Swisher, or if he is to play an important role with the team, it is certainly interesting to see Cleveland in the mix for his services.
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Re: Tribe tracking Bourn

Unread postby bookelly » Sat Dec 22, 2012 6:49 pm

I think they are telling Swisher to shit or get off the pot.
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Re: Tribe tracking Bourn

Unread postby Erie Warrior » Sun Dec 23, 2012 11:03 am

He shit. In a good way.
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Re: Tribe tracking Bourn

Unread postby bookelly » Sun Dec 23, 2012 1:21 pm

Erie Warrior wrote:He shit. In a good way.


Yup. It worked alright. I can just see the Swisher household yesterday:

Hot wife: I don't WANNA go to Cleveland Nick! I'm an actress and I need to be in NY or LA!!!

Nick: Ok, Honeybunny, I'll see what I can do. (15 minutes later) Honeybunny, CLE is gonna sign Bourne and I'll be out of a job having pissed on $70 million dollars so you can act 365 a year.

Hot wife: Well...take the money but buy me a plane.

Nick: I love you Honeybunny.

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Re: Tribe tracking Bourn

Unread postby skatingtripods » Tue Feb 05, 2013 4:11 pm

Buster Olney just tweeted this:

Buster Olney ‏@Buster_ESPN
Indians among the teams that might have interest in Michael Bourn if his price tag dropped A LOT. Lots of clubs trolling for bargains now.


Not sure what I'd shell out for this kid. Even on a one-year deal, Boras has to still be looking eight figures. I'd love to have him in the lineup and patrolling CF, but I can't see us finding another $10M+. Keep in mind, Boras hates us too.

That being said, if the Indians do this, I think you move Swisher to 1B, Reynolds is your everyday DH, the OF is Brantley-Bourn-Stubbs (teams run on that OF all day long) and they're covering a ton of ground.
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Re: Tribe tracking Bourn

Unread postby British_Pharaoh » Tue Feb 05, 2013 4:51 pm

Bourn would be a slick acquisition. 40+ steals, a decent batting AVG, but yet another player who strikes out far too much (especially for a guy with minimal power). He improves the team, but I think that the money that we have suddenly found in order to bring us in the Bourn game, should have already been spent on Marcum.
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Re: Tribe tracking Bourn

Unread postby peeker643 » Tue Feb 05, 2013 4:54 pm

British_Pharaoh wrote:Bourn would be a slick acquisition. 40+ steals, a decent batting AVG, but yet another player who strikes out far too much (especially for a guy with minimal power). He improves the team, but I think that the money that we have suddenly found in order to bring us in the Bourn game, should have already been spent on Marcum.


Agreed.

And I really do like Stubbs a TON in CF. people are going to love watching that guy play defense. And they may cringe a lot when he's at the dish. ;-) ;) :wink:
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Re: Tribe tracking Bourn

Unread postby skatingtripods » Tue Feb 05, 2013 5:08 pm

British_Pharaoh wrote:Bourn would be a slick acquisition. 40+ steals, a decent batting AVG, but yet another player who strikes out far too much (especially for a guy with minimal power). He improves the team, but I think that the money that we have suddenly found in order to bring us in the Bourn game, should have already been spent on Marcum.


I soured on Marcum after I read this: http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.ph ... f-silence/

We'll see what he does. Citi Field is a good ballpark for him with that flyball rate. Ask Josh Tomlin how being a flyball pitcher in Cleveland summer works. Marcum's stuff is better than Tomlin's, specifically his filthy changeup, but I'm not sure how I'd have felt about that gamble after I did my homework. Indians probably felt the same way. And if they felt they'd have a chance at Bourn, they'd rather save the 4M.

---

The trade-off with Bourn's higher K% last year is that he walked more than ever. 4.15 pitches per PA last year. Was at 3.97 for his career up through 2011.

Probably a moot point. I don't think we'll end up with Bourn. I'd love it if we did because it gives us a DH, the second best OF defense in all of baseball (behind Anaheim), and a leadoff hitter.
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Re: Tribe tracking Bourn

Unread postby skatingtripods » Tue Feb 05, 2013 5:36 pm

Dennis Manoloff at the PD says the Indians have no shot at Bourn. He's probably right.

Nice pipe dream, but that amount of money just isn't there.
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Re: Tribe tracking Bourn

Unread postby WiscTribeFan » Wed Feb 06, 2013 1:26 pm

skatingtripods wrote:Dennis Manoloff at the PD says the Indians have no shot at Bourn. He's probably right.

Nice pipe dream, but that amount of money just isn't there.


Boras is a genius. After somehow convincing Washington that Soriano was worth that contract, and that someone else was bidding on him, he'll bully someone into overpaying Bourn, too.
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Re: Tribe tracking Bourn

Unread postby skatingtripods » Wed Feb 06, 2013 2:45 pm

WiscTribeFan wrote:Boras is a genius. After somehow convincing Washington that Soriano was worth that contract, and that someone else was bidding on him, he'll bully someone into overpaying Bourn, too.


If Boras wasn't pulling the strings, I truly believe Bourn would have already gotten his multi-year deal.
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Re: Tribe tracking Bourn

Unread postby danwismar » Wed Feb 06, 2013 5:19 pm

If they made him an offer and then demanded that he take it or leave it, would that be The Bourn Ultimatum?
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Re: Tribe tracking Bourn

Unread postby Am I Here Again? » Thu Feb 07, 2013 3:34 am

WiscTribeFan wrote:Boras is a pond scum. After somehow convincing Washington that Soriano was worth that contract, and that someone else was bidding on him, he'll bully someone into overpaying Bourn, too.

^Fixed^ ;-) ;) :wink:

Boras did the same thing with Red Sox' Jason Varitek. Sox way overpaid for Tek but they ended up only bidding against themselves.
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Re: Tribe tracking Bourn

Unread postby pup » Thu Feb 07, 2013 9:18 am

In other news, Ashley and Colin Sykes are currently tracking Rudolph.
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Re: Tribe tracking Bourn

Unread postby Dnthateonthepronk » Thu Feb 07, 2013 9:29 am

Maybe the Tribe can get in on this whole Bourn thing by being the third team that facilitates a sign and trade to the Mets. Maybe they could get some value that way. They lose their 3rd but maybe the mets can compensate with a player they deem worth a 3rd rd pick.
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Re: Tribe tracking Bourn

Unread postby skatingtripods » Thu Feb 07, 2013 12:26 pm

Dnthateonthepronk wrote:Maybe the Tribe can get in on this whole Bourn thing by being the third team that facilitates a sign and trade to the Mets. Maybe they could get some value that way. They lose their 3rd but maybe the mets can compensate with a player they deem worth a 3rd rd pick.


Illegal per the new CBA. Somebody asked about this in Dave Cameron's Fangraphs chat yesterday.
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Re: Tribe tracking Bourn

Unread postby skatingtripods » Thu Feb 07, 2013 12:35 pm

pup wrote:In other news, Ashley and Colin Sykes are currently tracking Rudolph.


Still feel like an asshole for not recognizing you the other night at the Monsters game.
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Re: Tribe tracking Bourn

Unread postby bookelly » Thu Feb 07, 2013 2:40 pm

Bourne has an offensive WAR of 6.4 and a defensive WAR at 3. Swisher was a 3.5 WAR last year. We paid Swisher $56 Mil for 4 years to get us 14 wins over that span.

Now Bourne is looking for around $15 Mil per year for 3-4 years. Surely adding 9 wins a year is worth it no? Seems like a bargin to me especially in light of the Swisher contract. Plus you get a pure lead-off guy, and you solve your DH problem to boot.

9.4 wins in this division makes you a playoff team period. Right now we are looking at 79-83 wins...with Bourne you're looking at 86-92 wins. Surely the revenue garnered from being a contender and a playoff team is higher than $15 Million dollars!

And yeah...I know he's not coming here, but I could make a damn good case that Dolan (who just pocketed $300 Mil) should give this team and city what it deserves, a true contender.
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Re: Tribe tracking Bourn

Unread postby skatingtripods » Thu Feb 07, 2013 3:28 pm

bookelly wrote:Bourne has an offensive WAR of 6.4 and a defensive WAR at 3. Swisher was a 3.5 WAR last year. We paid Swisher $56 Mil for 4 years to get us 14 wins over that span.

Now Bourne is looking for around $15 Mil per year for 3-4 years. Surely adding 9 wins a year is worth it no? Seems like a bargin to me especially in light of the Swisher contract. Plus you get a pure lead-off guy, and you solve your DH problem to boot.

9.4 wins in this division makes you a playoff team period. Right now we are looking at 79-83 wins...with Bourne you're looking at 86-92 wins. Surely the revenue garnered from being a contender and a playoff team is higher than $15 Million dollars!

And yeah...I know he's not coming here, but I could make a damn good case that Dolan (who just pocketed $300 Mil) should give this team and city what it deserves, a true contender.


While I don't disagree that Bourn would help, just want to point out that Bourn's oWAR was 3.2 last year, not 6.4. His total WAR was 6 at B-Ref, 6.4 at Fangraphs. That includes, as you said, a dWAR of 3 from B-Ref. Fangraphs doesn't separate the two, that I've seen, but Bourn is listed as having saved 22.4 runs defensively above an average player.

B-R and Fangraphs have some big differences in his value for the other seasons, though I'm inclined to go more with Fangraphs's numbers, as they seem to value defense and baserunning more than B-R does and that's a big bulk of Bourn's value. The spike in home runs really helped his offensive value, specifically his ISO, since he set career highs in ISO and SLG%.

I don't know why I'm spending more time looking at Bourn than I need to since it's never going to happen.

Teams are clearly worried about him as a hitter. He strikes out a fair amount to have little home run power. He has decent gap power and turns doubles into triples, along with the ability to turn singles into doubles, but there are reasons outside of Scott Boras why he's still on the market with pitchers and catchers reporting next week.
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Re: Tribe tracking Bourn

Unread postby Dnthateonthepronk » Thu Feb 07, 2013 3:32 pm

skatingtripods wrote:
Dnthateonthepronk wrote:Maybe the Tribe can get in on this whole Bourn thing by being the third team that facilitates a sign and trade to the Mets. Maybe they could get some value that way. They lose their 3rd but maybe the mets can compensate with a player they deem worth a 3rd rd pick.


Illegal per the new CBA. Somebody asked about this in Dave Cameron's Fangraphs chat yesterday.



Did it just get changed recently? Because if I remember correctly Dave, wrote an article about the new CBA free agent rules which contained how a sign and trade would work under the new CBA for baseball. I believe it was sometime back in September or October.

Maybe he just didnt know then.
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Re: Tribe tracking Bourn

Unread postby skatingtripods » Thu Feb 07, 2013 3:32 pm

skatingtripods wrote:there are reasons outside of Scott Boras why he's still on the market with pitchers and catchers reporting next week.


Like this: http://www.fangraphs.com/fantasy/index. ... o-decline/
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Re: Tribe tracking Bourn

Unread postby pup » Thu Feb 07, 2013 4:08 pm

skatingtripods wrote:
pup wrote:In other news, Ashley and Colin Sykes are currently tracking Rudolph.


Still feel like an asshole for not recognizing you the other night at the Monsters game.


Please. No worries.
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Re: Tribe tracking Bourn

Unread postby bookelly » Thu Feb 07, 2013 5:00 pm

skatingtripods wrote:
skatingtripods wrote:there are reasons outside of Scott Boras why he's still on the market with pitchers and catchers reporting next week.


Like this: http://www.fangraphs.com/fantasy/index. ... o-decline/


This makes him cheaper I'd assume and besides the Mets and maybe the Mariners...there's nobody left but us...

...Aw shit...I'm just gonna stop deluding myself...nevermind. :pb:
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Re: Tribe tracking Bourn

Unread postby skatingtripods » Thu Feb 07, 2013 5:13 pm

bookelly wrote:This makes him cheaper I'd assume and besides the Mets and maybe the Mariners...there's nobody left but us...

...Aw shit...I'm just gonna stop deluding myself...nevermind. :pb:


Speaking of the Mariners, 7/175 to King Felix. Incredible. Not saying he's not worth it, but a 2.5 mph velo drop over the last five years is a little bit concerning. Dropped an entire mph from 2011 to 2012.

Dude's a tremendous pitcher, and may be helped a little bit by Safeco's pitcher-friendly conditions, but that's a big commitment to a pitcher.
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Re: Tribe tracking Bourn

Unread postby peeker643 » Thu Feb 07, 2013 5:20 pm

pup wrote:
skatingtripods wrote:
pup wrote:In other news, Ashley and Colin Sykes are currently tracking Rudolph.


Still feel like an asshole for not recognizing you the other night at the Monsters game.


Please. No worries.



I wouldn't acknowledge Pup either.
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Re: Tribe tracking Bourn

Unread postby Dnthateonthepronk » Thu Feb 07, 2013 6:28 pm

skatingtripods wrote:
Speaking of the Mariners, 7/175 to King Felix. Incredible. .



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Re: Tribe tracking Bourn

Unread postby WiscTribeFan » Mon Feb 11, 2013 2:08 pm

skatingtripods wrote:
WiscTribeFan wrote:Boras is a genius. After somehow convincing Washington that Soriano was worth that contract, and that someone else was bidding on him, he'll bully someone into overpaying Bourn, too.


If Boras wasn't pulling the strings, I truly believe Bourn would have already gotten his multi-year deal.


I don't think it has helped, but most teams don't want to lose that 1st round pick to get him. If our 1st rounder wasn't protected, no way would we have signed Swisher.

Boras overplayed this one. I still can't get over Washington overpaying Soriano when no-one else was seemingly even interested in him.
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Re: Tribe tracking Bourn

Unread postby motherscratcher » Mon Feb 11, 2013 2:13 pm

skatingtripods wrote:
bookelly wrote:This makes him cheaper I'd assume and besides the Mets and maybe the Mariners...there's nobody left but us...

...Aw shit...I'm just gonna stop deluding myself...nevermind. :pb:


Speaking of the Mariners, 7/175 to King Felix. Incredible. Not saying he's not worth it, but a 2.5 mph velo drop over the last five years is a little bit concerning. Dropped an entire mph from 2011 to 2012.

Dude's a tremendous pitcher, and may be helped a little bit by Safeco's pitcher-friendly conditions, but that's a big commitment to a pitcher.


Not so fast. Elbow

Blessing in disguise for the Mariners. King Felix might be one of the best pitchers in the game, but the guy doesn't know how to win. :hide:
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Re: Tribe tracking Bourn

Unread postby skatingtripods » Mon Feb 11, 2013 3:28 pm

WiscTribeFan wrote:Boras overplayed this one. I still can't get over Washington overpaying Soriano when no-one else was seemingly even interested in him.


Paying him until, what, 2023 or something? Insanity.
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Re: Tribe tracking Bourn

Unread postby WiscTribeFan » Mon Feb 11, 2013 4:09 pm

skatingtripods wrote:
WiscTribeFan wrote:Boras overplayed this one. I still can't get over Washington overpaying Soriano when no-one else was seemingly even interested in him.


Paying him until, what, 2023 or something? Insanity.


After reviewing the numbers, it is actually a better deal than I thought for Washington. $7M a year for the next two with a $14M vesting option with 60 games finished in 2013-14. Considering he walked away from what $12M next year with the Yankees. He probably didn't get what Boras promised he'd get when he turned down that club option.

That said, no-one else seemed remotely interested, and yet he still managed to score. Not bad.
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Re: Tribe tracking Bourn

Unread postby NH Tribe Fan » Mon Feb 11, 2013 9:31 pm

Bourn signed by Cleveland. 4 years 48 million

https://twitter.com/JonHeymanCBS/status ... 1152637952

Brantley or Stubbs have to be dealt, hopefully for pitching.

I don't like this deal.
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Re: Tribe tracking Bourn

Unread postby Gradysmanldy » Mon Feb 11, 2013 9:33 pm

HOLY SHIT.

What team is this, anyway? Im completely floored.

(I think there is your first premium free agent, Peeks?)
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Re: Tribe tracking Bourn

Unread postby statmasta » Mon Feb 11, 2013 9:38 pm

$54 million to Swisher
$48 million to Bourn
$16.5 million to Cabrera
$7.3 million to Perez
$7 million to Myers
$6 million to Reynolds
$5.75 million to Jimenez

plus whatever they paid Francona

Where in the world did all of this money come from? Wow.
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Re: Tribe tracking Bourn

Unread postby Gradysmanldy » Mon Feb 11, 2013 9:39 pm

NH Tribe Fan wrote:Bourn signed by Cleveland. 4 years 48 million

https://twitter.com/JonHeymanCBS/status ... 1152637952

Brantley or Stubbs have to be dealt, hopefully for pitching.

I don't like this deal.


Or stubbs becomes a 4th outfielder? Be nice to swap him for a decent pitching prospect, but i'm not sure you get value from him. (Since he was bought at such a low value)
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Re: Tribe tracking Bourn

Unread postby Gradysmanldy » Mon Feb 11, 2013 9:40 pm

statmasta wrote:$54 million to Swisher
$48 million to Bourn
$16.5 million to Cabrera
$7.3 million to Perez
$7 million to Myers
$6 million to Reynolds
$5.75 million to Jimenez

plus whatever they paid Francona

Where in the world did all of this money come from? Wow.


Trying the Marlins contention plan out for a run, they're going to sell it all off after the season?
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Re: Tribe tracking Bourn

Unread postby statmasta » Mon Feb 11, 2013 9:42 pm

Gradysmanldy wrote:
NH Tribe Fan wrote:Bourn signed by Cleveland. 4 years 48 million

https://twitter.com/JonHeymanCBS/status ... 1152637952

Brantley or Stubbs have to be dealt, hopefully for pitching.

I don't like this deal.


Or stubbs becomes a 4th outfielder? Be nice to swap him for a decent pitching prospect, but i'm not sure you get value from him. (Since he was bought at such a low value)

I like this idea. Stubbs would be a great situational player coming in for defense or pinch-running to steal a base, or starting for short stretches to fill in for an injured player. I don't want to trade Brantley, and Stubbs doesn't have enough trade value. I say keep him as the 4th OF.
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Re: Tribe tracking Bourn

Unread postby statmasta » Mon Feb 11, 2013 9:43 pm

Or Swisher moves full-time to 1B, Stubbs moves to RF, and Reynolds becomes the DH.
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Re: Tribe tracking Bourn

Unread postby 1Perry » Mon Feb 11, 2013 9:48 pm

Gradysmanldy wrote:Trying the Marlins contention plan out for a run, they're going to sell it all off after the season?


I'll take a couple World Series wins in the next decade.
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Re: Tribe tracking Bourn

Unread postby bookelly » Mon Feb 11, 2013 9:53 pm

statmasta wrote:Or Swisher moves full-time to 1B, Stubbs moves to RF, and Reynolds becomes the DH.


THIS!!! 100 million times this!!!

With Reynolds and Giambi in a DH platoon. And Marson, Aviles, and Gomes/Phelps to round out the bench.

I am literally floored!!! Wow!!!

Wow!!!

:clap: :woot: :santa:
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Re: Tribe tracking Bourn

Unread postby Gradysmanldy » Mon Feb 11, 2013 9:54 pm

bookelly wrote:
statmasta wrote:Or Swisher moves full-time to 1B, Stubbs moves to RF, and Reynolds becomes the DH.


THIS!!! 100 million times this!!!

With Reynolds and Giambi in a DH platoon. And Marson, Aviles, and Gomes/Phelps to round out the bench.

I am literally floored!!! Wow!!!

Wow!!!

:clap: :woot: :santa:


Literally floored? Like, LITERALLY the excitement knocked you out?
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Re: Tribe tracking Bourn

Unread postby motherscratcher » Mon Feb 11, 2013 9:58 pm

What do we give up draft pick wise? Anything?
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Re: Tribe tracking Bourn

Unread postby bookelly » Mon Feb 11, 2013 10:02 pm

bookelly wrote:Bourne has an offensive WAR of 6.4 and a defensive WAR at 3. Swisher was a 3.5 WAR last year. We paid Swisher $56 Mil for 4 years to get us 14 wins over that span.

Now Bourne is looking for around $15 Mil per year for 3-4 years. Surely adding 9 wins a year is worth it no? Seems like a bargin to me especially in light of the Swisher contract. Plus you get a pure lead-off guy, and you solve your DH problem to boot.

9.4 wins in this division makes you a playoff team period. Right now we are looking at 79-83 wins...with Bourne you're looking at 86-92 wins. Surely the revenue garnered from being a contender and a playoff team is higher than $15 Million dollars!

And yeah...I know he's not coming here, but I could make a damn good case that Dolan (who just pocketed $300 Mil) should give this team and city what it deserves, a true contender.


Bump. I'm glad the FO reads these boards for my advice.
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Re: Tribe tracking Bourn

Unread postby motherscratcher » Mon Feb 11, 2013 10:03 pm

Per Callis:

@jimcallisBA: #Braves will get the No. 31 overall pick, 1st rd now totals 33 picks, #Indians lose comp-balance pick (No. 69) after Bourn signing....
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Re: Tribe tracking Bourn

Unread postby bookelly » Mon Feb 11, 2013 10:06 pm

Gradysmanldy wrote:
bookelly wrote:
statmasta wrote:Or Swisher moves full-time to 1B, Stubbs moves to RF, and Reynolds becomes the DH.


THIS!!! 100 million times this!!!

With Reynolds and Giambi in a DH platoon. And Marson, Aviles, and Gomes/Phelps to round out the bench.

I am literally floored!!! Wow!!!

Wow!!!

:clap: :woot: :santa:


Literally floored? Like, LITERALLY the excitement knocked you out?


Ok...I was LITERALLY jumping up and down yelling "Holy Shit! Holy Shit! HOLY SHIT!" So no, I was not floored...pedantic dick. :cheers:
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Re: Tribe tracking Bourn

Unread postby bookelly » Mon Feb 11, 2013 10:09 pm

motherscratcher wrote:Per Callis:

@jimcallisBA: #Braves will get the No. 31 overall pick, 1st rd now totals 33 picks, #Indians lose comp-balance pick (No. 69) after Bourn signing....


So we keep our #1 pick? Cool. Seems like the lawyers in the FO really comprehend these new rules and are using our losing season as a way to grab an advantage.

+1 Chris and Mark

/Damn that Francona signing is reaping dividends.
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Re: Tribe tracking Bourn

Unread postby Adverb Harry » Mon Feb 11, 2013 10:14 pm

bookelly wrote:
motherscratcher wrote:Per Callis:

@jimcallisBA: #Braves will get the No. 31 overall pick, 1st rd now totals 33 picks, #Indians lose comp-balance pick (No. 69) after Bourn signing....


So we keep our #1 pick? Cool. Seems like the lawyers in the FO really comprehend these new rules and are using our losing season as a way to grab an advantage.

+1 Chris and Mark

/Damn that Francona signing is reaping dividends.


Just posted in the other thread that I don't like the amount of years at all, but man, I sure love our lineup this year and next. Holy shit.

If we're really going for it, they'd better keep everyone they've got. Don't trade Brantley or even Stubbs to make room. We can make this work great without losing anyone.
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Re: Tribe tracking Bourn

Unread postby 1Perry » Mon Feb 11, 2013 10:20 pm

It may be a bad contract come year 4 but it's NOT Johnny Damon.
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Re: Tribe tracking Bourn

Unread postby fairvis » Mon Feb 11, 2013 10:25 pm

Holy shit, holy shit. What the hell has gotten into this team? Getting rid of that Pronk and Sizemore contracts certainly helped, didn't it?
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Re: Tribe tracking Bourn

Unread postby bookelly » Mon Feb 11, 2013 10:26 pm

1Perry wrote:It may be a bad contract come year 4 but it's NOT Johnny Damon.


If they blow donkey balls at the trade deadline in the next 3 years (highly likely) he becomes an incredible trade chip. Win/Win. Lose/Win. Seems like a Win/Win scenario. I like those.
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Re: Tribe tracking Bourn

Unread postby 1Perry » Mon Feb 11, 2013 10:31 pm

bookelly wrote:
1Perry wrote:It may be a bad contract come year 4 but it's NOT Johnny Damon.


If they blow donkey balls at the trade deadline in the next 3 years (highly likely) he becomes an incredible trade chip. Win/Win. Lose/Win. Seems like a Win/Win scenario. I like those.


LOL, I don't even care right now. I checked 5-6 sources just to make sure this was real.
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