Taking the Needle

[peeker643]

Now we're getting into the "PED" portion that interests me. Jonathan Papelbon says he took regular Toradol injections. I personally watched guys who tweaked a knee or rolled an ankle back in the 80's take a shot for pain and inflammation so they could get back on the field.

They wouldn't have physically been able to perform at all without it so is taking the needle a PED or is it medically necessary, for lack of a better term? There is some ( a lot of) benefit to reducing inflammation and limiting pain but is the goal better health or being able to run on an ankle you shouldn't run on?

I think this is where the line blurs for me.

God only knows if/what further damage is done to joints and the body when you numb it up and temporarily reduce inflammation and then go out and run and try and move 300lb men around a football field, cut and pivot on a court or go 1st to 3rd on a groundball base hit.

Here's the link to the Papelbon article. http://es.pn/156VeTL

Where's the line? Is there one for you? I have no doubt many people here have done the same thing. Is this on the player? The team/university/sport? The medical professionals? Especially when you consider how common it is to be waylaid by realizations that something that was as widely used and prescribed as Toradol turns out to potentially have serious repercussions?

[jerryroche]

Don't think there's as much as one poster here who wouldn't do just about anything to his body to get a $1 million (or $1 million MORE) contract offer to play a boy's game for even one stinkin' year.

Doesn't make it right, but this is the world we live in, like it or not.

[bac5665]

For me, the line is harm to the athlete. I honestly can't see the difference between steroids and vitamins, other than the damage that steroids appear to do to those who take them.

I would ban things that harm the athletes and allow just about anything else. After all, other than the harm, what is the difference between vitamins and steroids?

[1Perry]

I agree that there seems to be a line but where do you draw that line? If a guy tweaks a knee and wants a pain shot to play? I'm good with that.

If you do the things that caused Sammy Sosa's head to turn into a pumpkin? No, I'm not good with that.

I suppose to perhaps make my position too simple, I would say I don't really have a problem with what you decide to do to be able to use what you have.

I do with things that create what you don't have.

[leadpipe]

Jason Taylor has been the weekly guest for an hour throughout the season on the radio show I listen to out of Miami. He spoke of the "magic" of toradol early in the season and since then its gotten them on a theme of the injuries/conditions gy in that league play with.

Practically each week is crazier then the next.

Lomas Brown coming on and talking about how he played an entire game with a catheter in was particularly disturbing.

Anyways, guys lined up for Toradol each and every week.

[furls]

Is it wrong that I don't really don't even care anymore? The lines are so arbitrary anyway. Back in 1997 when I was big into lifting and sports performance (21 year old Marine), I used to pick my supplements by which had the most Andro because it worked. The fact that it was legal was a bonus. Now Andro is bad news, but there are all kinds of legal steroid precursors at some point I just get bored with the drama and the self righteousness. I was basically juicing for no other reason than getting jacked.

If you are worried about today's numbers compared to those of yester-year then you need to ban all the other performance enhancing developments over the last quarter century to "level the playing field." There are all kinds of legal enhancements out there today, not the least of which is the year round training that these pro athletes do. There really is no off season. Look at today's NFL players compared to those of the late 70's/early eighties. This year's lousy Cleveland Browns houses the best of them.

Maybe I am just an enabler (probably) but I just don't give a crap about PEDs. Making PEDs illegal just ensures that the best cheaters go unnoticed!

[peeker643]

Is it wrong that I don't really don't even care anymore? The lines are so arbitrary anyway. Back in 1997 when I was big into lifting and sports performance (21 year old Marine), I used to pick my supplements by which had the most Andro because it worked. The fact that it was legal was a bonus. Now Andro is bad news, but there are all kinds of legal steroid precursors at some point I just get bored with the drama and the self righteousness. I was basically juicing for no other reason than getting jacked.

If you are worried about today's numbers compared to those of yester-year then you need to ban all the other performance enhancing developments over the last quarter century to "level the playing field." There are all kinds of legal enhancements out there today, not the least of which is the year round training that these pro athletes do. There really is no off season. Look at today's NFL players compared to those of the late 70's/early eighties. This year's lousy Cleveland Browns houses the best of them.

Maybe I am just an enabler (probably) but I just don't give a crap about PEDs. Making PEDs illegal just ensures that the best cheaters go unnoticed!

Very close to where I am on all of it.

I really don't care what they take or what they do to themselves in the process. What does drive me crazy is the wink-wink hypocrisy of teams and doctors and athletes. IMO there's no difference between a toradol injection and Andro or Dianabol or whatever blood doping or anything else.

No one can tell me that Toradol isn't a PED. No one can tell me that anything that numbs the pain and allows them back in a game isn't a PED either. To me the lines are so blurred it's not worth keeping track other than the fact half these jackwagons who demand the Toradol NOW and line up for shots will be suing their sport in 30 years when they're bleeding out and dying off.

[1Perry]

Is it wrong that I don't really don't even care anymore? The lines are so arbitrary anyway. Back in 1997 when I was big into lifting and sports performance (21 year old Marine), I used to pick my supplements by which had the most Andro because it worked. The fact that it was legal was a bonus. Now Andro is bad news, but there are all kinds of legal steroid precursors at some point I just get bored with the drama and the self righteousness. I was basically juicing for no other reason than getting jacked.

If you are worried about today's numbers compared to those of yester-year then you need to ban all the other performance enhancing developments over the last quarter century to "level the playing field." There are all kinds of legal enhancements out there today, not the least of which is the year round training that these pro athletes do. There really is no off season. Look at today's NFL players compared to those of the late 70's/early eighties. This year's lousy Cleveland Browns houses the best of them.

Maybe I am just an enabler (probably) but I just don't give a crap about PEDs. Making PEDs illegal just ensures that the best cheaters go unnoticed!

Very close to where I am on all of it.

I really don't care what they take or what they do to themselves in the process. What does drive me crazy is the wink-wink hypocrisy of teams and doctors and athletes. IMO there's no difference between a toradol injection and Andro or Dianabol or whatever blood doping or anything else.

No one can tell me that Toradol isn't a PED. No one can tell me that anything that numbs the pain and allows them back in a game isn't a PED either. To me the lines are so blurred it's not worth keeping track other than the fact half these jackwagons who demand the Toradol NOW and line up for shots will be suing their sport in 30 years when they're bleeding out and dying off.

Which is why I believe there should be a line even if I do not know enough to say where it should be.

Without it the guy that isn't willing to give away his retirement years is shut out of competing.

I'm also absolutely find with the league leader in HR's being 45 as opposed to 65.

[motherscratcher]

Is it wrong that I don't really don't even care anymore? The lines are so arbitrary anyway. Back in 1997 when I was big into lifting and sports performance (21 year old Marine), I used to pick my supplements by which had the most Andro because it worked. The fact that it was legal was a bonus. Now Andro is bad news, but there are all kinds of legal steroid precursors at some point I just get bored with the drama and the self righteousness. I was basically juicing for no other reason than getting jacked.

If you are worried about today's numbers compared to those of yester-year then you need to ban all the other performance enhancing developments over the last quarter century to "level the playing field." There are all kinds of legal enhancements out there today, not the least of which is the year round training that these pro athletes do. There really is no off season. Look at today's NFL players compared to those of the late 70's/early eighties. This year's lousy Cleveland Browns houses the best of them.

Maybe I am just an enabler (probably) but I just don't give a crap about PEDs. Making PEDs illegal just ensures that the best cheaters go unnoticed!

Very close to where I am on all of it.

I really don't care what they take or what they do to themselves in the process. What does drive me crazy is the wink-wink hypocrisy of teams and doctors and athletes. IMO there's no difference between a toradol injection and Andro or Dianabol or whatever blood doping or anything else.

No one can tell me that Toradol isn't a PED. No one can tell me that anything that numbs the pain and allows them back in a game isn't a PED either. To me the lines are so blurred it's not worth keeping track other than the fact half these jackwagons who demand the Toradol NOW and line up for shots will be suing their sport in 30 years when they're bleeding out and dying off.

I think the argument might be that toradol allows players to play through pain, basically enabling them to complete longer at a current, natural level of performance. Anabolic steroids increase the performance allowing players to compete at a higher than natural level.

I'm not sure I completely agree with that. But it sounds like the argument that can be made.

Personally, I'm along Furl's line of thinking. I just don't really care anymore, and haven't for some time. If I thought there was actually a good way to do something about the problem, then I might. It's like the drug war... impossible to win and not worth fighting anymore.

I agree with 1Perry. How it hurts is the players who want to play clean, but wouldn't be able to compete. that sucks. It does. But again, I can't think of anything really to be done.

And at this point, I personally find all of the moralizing, hypocracy, and soapbox shouting from the media far more unsavory than some guy who took a needle in the ass to hit a ball farther.

[pod2dawg]

Toradol aka ketorlac is a legal commonly prescribed anti-inflammatory which is only to be used for a short duration. It acts alot like motrin ( ibuprofen) and aleeve (naprosyn). It does have more of an analgesic effect than most and some docs use it for post-op pain instead of narcotics. It does have more serious / frequent complications than most anti-inflammatories thus the short term recs.

It should not be used on a weekly basis by any stretch, however, we didn't know that till about 8 years ago. Not in the same league as steroids or hgh.That being said up till about 2004 I'd be rolling up my sleeve to play too.

Anybody authorizing more than about six shots a year now is committing malpractice. Anybody getting them is rolling the dice with their health.

Pods uncle

[motherscratcher]

Toradol aka ketorlac is a legal commonly prescribed anti-inflammatory which is only to be used for a short duration. It acts alot like motrin and advil. It does have more of an analgesic effect than most and some docs use it for post-op pain instead of narcotics. It does have more serious / frequent complications than most anti-inflammatories thus the short term recs.

It should not be used on a weekly basis by any stretch, however, we didn't know that till about 8 years ago. Not in the same league as steroids or ugh hgh.That being said up till about 2004 I'd be rolling up my sleeve to play too.

Anybody authorizing more than about six shots a year now is committing malpractice. Anybody getting them is rolling the dice with their health.

Pods uncle

I used to order shots of toradol all of the time during my residency when I got paged to the ER for some asshole with a toothache. Until I got to Y-Town, I had no idea that going to the ER for a toothache was even an option, but people did it all the time. We would prescribe an antibiotic (if indicated), Motrin 800, and a shot of Toradol in the ass if if was really bad. Very VERY rarely any narcotics. If word got out that the ER was prescribing narcs for toothaches lines would be out the fucking door.

Toradol did 2 things. One: It actually helped people in pain. and Two: It seperated the legit from the fishing expeditions. Someone with a legit toothache will do anything to make it stop. Someone looking for vicoden will probably pass and not come back again...which was our actual goal.

[pod2dawg]

But scratch, what about those poor souls seemingly always allergic to Toradol & Ultram? wink

[furls]

All the PED talk is making me want to find some Andro. Doing it without the PEDs... you know all natural way (200g of Protein + a couple of creatine shakes + a couple of Nitro fixers + and various uppers ephedra, caffeine etc. per day) just sucks.

Not sure if you guys caught my sarcasm there; it can be hard to get the inflection across a keyboard.

[LarsHancock]

You want to be bigger, stronger, faster - fine, but if you're taking stuff that has serious negative physiological and mental impacts on you, that's where the line should be drawn. It is bad enough when the pros do it, but when cheating trickles down to high schools, and kids with still developing bodies and brains are experimenting with stuff they have no way of controlling, then you're starting to do societal harm. Ray Lewis grows a giant penis out of his face from some weird PED he's on, who cares, but if a 16 year old who is never going to make the pros juices up and winds up killing himself because his brain is messed up from the steroids, that's seriously wrong, and the reason there needs to be rules and testing guidelines from the top levels of sport down that are consistent, clear, and incontrovertible.

The supply chain needs to be held accountable. A coach that gives a kid steroids ought to go to one of those ass-rapey type of prisons for at least 5-10 years. You think that would get their attention? Doctors and anyone else that pushes the bad stuff should get the same treatment.

Ah, but what is good and what is bad? Where does something like Andro go, which is basically benign with the exception it could turn you into a chick if you overdo it (and it can produce increased levels of testosterone in people with already high testosterone which may not be good societally)? Where is the line, and who draws it?

Here's a radical thing the government could do to make it all go away (which offends every fiber of my libertarian being): devalue sport. Set limits on ticket prices for sporting events, and set salary caps on being a pro athlete in the $40K a year range. If there is no honey pot at the end, why give up your whole life to go after the honey pot? Stupidest idea ever, I know, but it would work because as long as the demand and the reward is so high for cheating, people are going to do whatever it takes to get the prize.

Oh, and weed should be legal.

[jb]

When these guys strat crying about the money and fame they get when they are in their glory years I'll strat shedding tears about hwre they end up.

They made the Faustian deal by de facto accepting the challenges put to Achilles in the legends of antiquity. Where they end up is part of the deal.

Juice away fellas. You're all gladiators.

[furls]

I knew I was basically juicing with the andro in the mid/late 90's; that was the whole point. I also knew I was likely to face the same side effects of the juice. I didn't really care because I was BLOWING up. That crap worked!

I only did it for a couple of years, and I don't show any adverse long term side effects (yet). Not saying there are no side effects, just that I knew them and still took the supplements. I really don't care what they put in their bodies. Better rules just make better cheaters. Look at the guys in the NFL today, do you really think that shit is natural? You're kidding yourself if you do.