Official start of the Dion Waiters era.

[OldDawg]

We can pick 'em!! Two blown #4 picks in a row.

Scott was so upset with rookie Dion Waiters that he benched him after just a minute in the fourth quarter. Waiters made just one of seven shots -- laying in an alley-oop from Miles before falling down -- and had four turnovers.

So far in training camp, he hasn't looked like the No. 4 pick in the draft.

"He struggled offensively big-time," Scott said. "I took him out in the second half because I drew up a play, guard ran the play, he messed it up. To me that was a lack of focus so I figured he didn't need to play the rest of the game."

Asked what he'd most like to see from Waiters, Scott said, "Understanding what we're doing offensively. You've got to know the plays. I can't draw up a play during a timeout and you go on the floor and mess it up."

Ironically, most of the concerns about Waiters' adjustment to the pros involved his defense, since he was coming from Syracuse, a school that employs a zone. He has done all right with that, especially on the ball. But he has a lot of company in offensive struggles.

[swerb]

Worst. Pick. Ever.

Unfathomable. Fireable offense for Chris Grant IMO.

[leadpipe]

Makes you wnder what this regime would do with, say, the 12th pick. You know, where there actually could be some complicated strategizing about who is going to be around.

To get caught with your pants down in the top five two years in a row in fantastic.

I'm tellin' ya. Wire to wire - Worst. Organization. Ever.

[pod2dawg]

I'm tellin' ya. Wire to wire - Worst. Organization. Ever.

Unfortunately for us the Tribe & New Era Browns have made it a horse race.

[scott]

Makes you wnder what this regime would do with, say, the 12th pick. You know, where there actually could be some complicated strategizing about who is going to be around.

Doesn't seem like the algebra of a double digit pick will be an issue any time soon.

All the talk of Waiters having stats similar to D-Wade during college seemed dubious at the time. Like people comparing Colt McCoy's rookie stats to Brees. You could watch Brees as a rookie and n some plays know that the talent was there. It was just a case of figuring out how to make it translate to the NFL.

Waiters feels like a 2nd level stat reach so far.

[OldDawg]

Makes you wnder what this regime would do with, say, the 12th pick.

Kinda ironic. Waiters and TT shoulda been drafted with a 12th pick in the draft. I wonder how on-board Scott was with this pick. And I also wonder if Scott puts this kid in the dog house long term, if the brass will make Scott take him out of the dog house because it will make them look bad, er, worse.

[swerb]

Thompson, at least he is a big body that can defend and rebound. A 6'3 fat shooting guard that lacks PG skills, played no D in college, and didn't work out for any teams?

Unfreakingbelievable.

[OldDawg]

Its like we wasted a year of sucking and tanking for that??

[swerb]

Its like we wasted a year of sucking and tanking for that??

Exactly. An entire year worth of cheering for my favorite team to lose ... all for Dion Effing Waiters.

OIC

[bac5665]

In taking Waiters, we literally threw away any hope of competing while Kyrie is here. That's what pisses me off so much.

[rk]

I don't believe there's a chance anyone will mistake me for any kind of apoligist for Waiters or Grant for taking such a freakin' risk with the 4th pick on him.

But last I checked the Cavs season has not actually started yet so the Official start of the Waiters era has a little while yet to go. Even if you don't give Grant the benefit of the doubt on the pick at least give him the benefit of the doubt that he was making a pick that he considered a project. Not someone who would come in on day one of the preseason and dominate.

Gonna wait a few weeks before I throw Grant off the bridge with Waiters tied to his leg. There was almost no way we were getting a major piece of the puzzle once Beal went off the board. While Robinson and Barnes would have been better, IMHO, than Waiters I am no more convinced that either of those guys would have been guys you build a playoff team around than I was in June.

The only way the Cavs got the third pick would have been to out-tank Charlotte - who did the 'best' tank job in the history of professional sports. Effing Lotto.

[bac5665]

rk, you're right that the draft played out in the worst possible way for us. No doubt. But even given that, the pick looks on paper to be disastrously, organization cripplingly bad. And nothing this FO has done gives me any confidence that that the consensus is wrong about that.

[Larvell Blanks]

^ well the kid hasn't exactly done anything to make you hope he's a project. Going into summer league games licking the Taco Bell off his fingers and landing on the bench because of focus does not send warm thoughts in anyone's direction.

Robinson should have been the natural pick at that point, especially a team that is lacking size. If Sacramento could/will build around him don't see why the Cavs couldn't with Kyrieand Robinson.

[StewieG]

When Kyrie leaves in 2 years I won't blame him one bit. Had the opportunity to get him some running mates, and we shit the bed miserably. I could draft better than Chris Grant, and that really ain't saying much. Dude should've been fired the second he turned in a draft card for Tristan Thompson.

[Gradysmanldy]

THIS was the draft that you needed to get a scorer to go along with Kyrie, and the Cavs straight out shit the bed on that. If you can't get Beal, swallow your goddamn pride and get Robinson. At least you have a starter, at that point, if not a perennial all star.

Now when you make the lottery next year, you're still looking for a rookie that can immediately step in. Cavs org is a bag of shite.

[jerryroche]

I really, really, really, really, really want to believe that Thompson and Waiters will — with enough seasoning — live up to their 1-4 draft status. But I have not yet seen one damn thing from either of them that would even begin to convince me — and TT has already had one year to do so.

[Orenthal]

Thompson, at least he is a big body that can defend and rebound. A 6'3 fat shooting guard that lacks PG skills, played no D in college, and didn't work out for any teams?

Unfreakingbelievable.

e0 pointed this out sooper early, but I think its safe to say now with a 2 draft sample size that Grant reached for something no one else can see... I'd say physical athletic freak, but only Thompson fits that description. It is still early, but, feh.

[bookelly]

Preseason game and the boards are in epic meltdown. Dudes...it's one fucking preseason game.

Chillax hommies. It'll sort itself out.

[OldDawg]

The 4th pick in the draft from 1989 to 2009 has had an average shelf live of over 14 yrs in the NBA, has averaged 14.2ppg (both average and median) and 5.4 rebounds per game.

Draft...PLayer..........yrs.....ppg.....rpg
1989....Glen Rice...........15......18.3....4.4
1990....Dennis Scott.......10......12.9....2.8
1991....Dikembe Mutombo18......9.8.....10.3
1992....Jimmy Jackson....14......14.3....4.7
1993....Jamaal Mashburn.11......19.1....5.4
1994....Donyell Marshall..15......11.2....6.7
1995....Rasheed Wallace.15......14.6....6.7
1996....Stephon Marbury.13......19.3....3
1997....Antonio Daniels...13......7.6.....1.8
1998....Antawn Jamison..14......19.5....7.9
1999....Lamar Odom......13+......14.2....8.6
2000....Marcus Fizer.......6.......9.6.....4.6
2001....Eddie Curry........10+.....13......5.2
2002....Drew Gooden.....10+.....12......7.7
2003....Chris Bosh.........9+......19.8....8.9
2004....Shaun Livingston.7+......6.8.....2.6
2005....Chris Paul...........7.......18.3....4.3
2006....Tyrus Thomas.....6.......7.9.....5
2007....Mike Conley, Jr....5.......11.9....2.8
2008....Russe Westbrook.4.......19......4.7
2009....Tyreke Evans........3.......18.2....4.9
2010....Wesley Johnson....2.......7.7.....2.9
2011....Tristi Thompson.....1.......8.2.....6.5
2012....Dion Waiters

[Love child of shawn kemp]

and the CAVS have had 6 of the above on their roster

[leadpipe]

and the CAVS have had 6 of the above on their roster

Unfortunately they were primarily the old, bad and stupid ones.

[leadpipe]

Preseason game and the boards are in epic meltdown. Dudes...it's one fucking preseason game.

Chillax hommies. It'll sort itself out.

Someone said this same thing in the 70's.

Still waiting.

[YahooFanChicago]

Just like the fat, geeky guy at the club watching the little mini skirt wearing hotties dance I'm still hoping we get supper lucky.

TT and Dion figuring it out and justifying the #4 picks may have the same chance as the fat geek pulling the hottie 5 minutes before closing time but you can still hope.

This is a Cleveland team we are talking about...all we have is hope.

[comish]

Makes you wnder what this regime would do with, say, the 12th pick. You know, where there actually could be some complicated strategizing about who is going to be around.

To get caught with your pants down in the top five two years in a row in fantastic.

I'm tellin' ya. Wire to wire - Worst. Organization. Ever.

Has this debate been had on these boards in earnest. yet? THAT might make for a fantastic waste of a day.....I've got my lead horse.....we know where Lead sits.

[StewieG]

RCF had a podcast with Brian Windhorst (yeah, yeah, I know), who was in the Cavs war room on draft night. Windy said a couple things that I found interesting. First, the MKG's agent thought on draft night that he was being traded here. He even told MKG that he wouldn't be staying in Charlotte.

Second, Waiters was #2 on their board behind MKG (Davis wasn't on their board b/c they didn't have a shot). Apparently Byron Scott was the driving force behind that one. He loved Davis, and Grant decided to follow Scott's lead on that one. It should be noted that Grant liked Waiters too, but this is Scott's doing.

[swerb]

You could just tell from the pressers after this train wreck of a pick that it was all Byron Scott.

Which makes Chris Grant even dumber.

Jim Paxson still out there?

[Larvell Blanks]

but wait, Waiters scored 18 pts last night w/ 4-4 from 3.


Waiting patiently for Pros to post his sample size and tell us how Waiters becomes the next (insert HoF name here)

[mattvan1]

but wait, Waiters scored 18 pts last night w/ 4-4 from 3.


Waiting patiently for Pros to post his sample size and tell us how Waiters becomes the next (insert HoF name here)

Don't forget about Waiters' +/-

[e0y2e3]

RCF had a podcast with Brian Windhorst (yeah, yeah, I know), who was in the Cavs war room on draft night. Windy said a couple things that I found interesting. First, the MKG's agent thought on draft night that he was being traded here. He even told MKG that he wouldn't be staying in Charlotte.

Second, Waiters was #2 on their board behind MKG (Davis wasn't on their board b/c they didn't have a shot). Apparently Byron Scott was the driving force behind that one. He loved Davis, and Grant decided to follow Scott's lead on that one. It should be noted that Grant liked Waiters too, but this is Scott's doing.

I'm very confused, as this interpretation of things from you reads absolutely nothing like Windy's Hangin In the Cavs War Room piece:

http://espn.go.com/nba/draft2012/story/ ... ers-scenes

One of you is a pretty shitty story teller! And I'm not dumb enough to click on RCF to find out which!

[Orenthal]

Drummond had a nice preseason game a few days ago... I'm somewhere between being negative and patient, or maybe just patiently negative.

ETA Jonas had a decent game last night starting.

[StewieG]

No doubt I'm a shitty storyteller. Here's what he said, paraphrased:

On their board, MKG was their number 1 choice. They were attempting to trade up to 2 to get MKG. Cavs didn't know what the Bobcats were going to do. Windy didn't know what the offer to CHA was, he just knew the offer was in. Cavs didn't know who CHA was going to take - they thought CHA might take Thomas Robinson. When CHA drafted MKG at 2, they (I assume Cavs, but he didn't specify) where on the phone with MKG's then agent, Rich Paul. Paul thought there was a trade. Paul told MKG that he wasn't staying in CHA, that he was getting traded. Cavs, at the moment the pick was made thought they had been outbid on a trade (I missed that part first time around).

But #2 on their board, after MKG was Dion Waiters. Windy wasn't privy to research and conversations about Waiters in the months leading up to the draft, and didn't know what would've happened if Beal was available at 4, but he says he saw their order, and Waiters was listed #2 behind MKG. Said that came from their "process", and their process is beyond what he got to see. Byron Scott really liked Waiters a lot. (This is the part I skimmed over and only alluded to in my original post) Byron and Chris Grant have a very close relationship, and Byron has been a remarkably loyal follower of the plan. Scott took a lot of losses playing Kyrie only a certain number of minutes, not going above his threshold the Cavs had set for him, playing the D-League guys instead of more vets, accepting the team shutting down Varejao because he wasn't completely, 100% healthy (though he could have played at the end of the year). Windy felt this was Grant showing faith in Scott, saying "OK, this is the guy you like". Cavs brass liked him too, but really Byron was the guiding light there. Byron believed in Dion Waiters.

If you feel like it, here's the link: http://realcavsfans.com/showthread.php? ... -Our-Guest

The stuff I paraphrased starts a little after the 10:00 minute mark, and lasts until about the 14 minute mark.

[Gradysmanldy]

Looked like he at least had 6th man potential last night; write up from all 10 people who gave a shit about the game was pretty positive. Explosive first step, good distribution.

Who knows, maybe he's a Jason Terry type in disguise.

[OldDawg]

Even as poorly as we have handled the draft, I have a VERY difficult time believing that they had Waiters rated higher than Beal.

[Prosecutor]

but wait, Waiters scored 18 pts last night w/ 4-4 from 3.


Waiting patiently for Pros to post his sample size and tell us how Waiters becomes the next (insert HoF name here)

I'm not going to comment on Waiters until I see him play in a regular season game. Maybe a lot of regular season games. Unless he puts up 25 points in the opener, then all bets are off.

Oh what the hell. Might as well go out on a limb. I say when all is said and done he'll end up somewhere between Shaun Livingston and Chris Paul on the final rankings of #4 picks.

[Kingpin74]

We can parse these guys all we want but what really makes me angry is that we had an awful awful team drafting for need at #4 two years in a row. This is a minimum 5 year rebuild and should be a blank canvas. Just freaking take the best player available and find a spot for him. At the absolute worst, call these other teams' bluffs and take the guy with the highest value for draft night trade talks. And if you have to keep him, even better.

[StewieG]

We can parse these guys all we want but what really makes me angry is that we had an awful awful team drafting for need at #4 two years in a row. This is a minimum 5 year rebuild and should be a blank canvas. Just freaking take the best player available and find a spot for him. At the absolute worst, call these other teams' bluffs and take the guy with the highest value for draft night trade talks. And if you have to keep him, even better.

What scares the shit out of me is the apparent fact that they DID draft the best player available (according to them) both years.

[rebelwithoutaclue]

The 4th pick in the draft from 1989 to 2009 has had an average shelf live of over 14 yrs in the NBA, has averaged 14.2ppg (both average and median) and 5.4 rebounds per game.

Draft...PLayer..........yrs.....ppg.....rpg
1989....Glen Rice...........15......18.3....4.4
1990....Dennis Scott.......10......12.9....2.8
1991....Dikembe Mutombo18......9.8.....10.3
1992....Jimmy Jackson....14......14.3....4.7
1993....Jamaal Mashburn.11......19.1....5.4
1994....Donyell Marshall..15......11.2....6.7
1995....Rasheed Wallace.15......14.6....6.7
1996....Stephon Marbury.13......19.3....3
1997....Antonio Daniels...13......7.6.....1.8
1998....Antawn Jamison..14......19.5....7.9
1999....Lamar Odom......13+......14.2....8.6
2000....Marcus Fizer.......6.......9.6.....4.6
2001....Eddie Curry........10+.....13......5.2
2002....Drew Gooden.....10+.....12......7.7
2003....Chris Bosh.........9+......19.8....8.9
2004....Shaun Livingston.7+......6.8.....2.6
2005....Chris Paul...........7.......18.3....4.3
2006....Tyrus Thomas.....6.......7.9.....5
2007....Mike Conley, Jr....5.......11.9....2.8
2008....Russe Westbrook.4.......19......4.7
2009....Tyreke Evans........3.......18.2....4.9
2010....Wesley Johnson....2.......7.7.....2.9
2011....Tristi Thompson.....1.......8.2.....6.5
2012....Dion Waiters

My only hope is that Waiters is better than Wesley Johnson, an equally terrible pick that was called terrible in real time. At least Wesley Johnson started for Syracuse though....

[YahooFanChicago]

Damn, tough crowd over here when it comes to Waiters. EO must be rubbing off on you guys.

I didn't like the Waiters pick either but isn't it too early to write him off and totally rip the guy to shreds?

We should get a little preliminary glimpse tomorrow when he starts against Beal.

Last year I didn't get to watch a single Cavs game because I was out of the country. This year I have already watched some pre-season games and I now fully understand the low opinion of TT. Watching him play I really wonder how the hell he get's the numbers he does. Dude looks so stiff and I think Pink Floyd was thinking of TT when they came up with the lyrics about their hands felt just like 2 balloons. I don't know what's up with the dudes hands but I think most kids on the short bus have better hand-eye coordination than TT.

I have been a lot more impressed with Zeller than I expected to be...guy looks like he understands the offense, looks good on the pick and roll and looks smooth going to basket. He looks overmatched on D but he is young and too skinny.

Waiters didn't look great in a couple of the pre-season games I watched but he looked damn good against the Bulls. Dude does have some skills and can create. I guess it must be that upside that made Grant select him over seemingly safer guys like Barnes and Robiinson.

[pup]

For one night at least...pretty impressive.

[OldDawg]

For one night at least...pretty impressive.

Yeah! I told you guys!

[bookelly]

Worst. Pick. Ever.

Unfathomable. Fireable offense for Chris Grant IMO.

How do you feel now Swerb?

[Gradysmanldy]

This is going to be just like the TT pick, only far more easy to make an argument both ways, and with a lot more of Eey yelling at Prosecutor.

[Prosecutor]

This is going to be just like the TT pick, only far more easy to make an argument both ways, and with a lot more of Eey yelling at Prosecutor.

If he can keep playing like he did last night there won't be any arguments.

[pod2dawg]

This is going to be just like the TT pick, only far more easy to make an argument both ways, and with a lot more of Eey yelling at Prosecutor.

I will go out on a limb here , Neon Dion will be far easier to defend as time goes on than TT. Dion has no fear. He acts like that is his court and everyone out there is trespassing.

[Gradysmanldy]

He wont keep playing like last night, though....at least not consistently. Hell, virtually none of the rookies will. He went 7-11 or something from 3 last night, and while the confidence is sick, he's not going to have those kind of nights regularly.

There's going to be a lot of wailing and teeth gnashing on nights, as well as some highlights. All of it depends on whether he starts finishing at the rim AND getting calls when he gets whacked.

[StewieG]

No, nights like Monday won't be commonplace. Nobody shoots like that consistently. What does have me cautiously optimistic about him though is that he has shot the ball well from outside every game. If people have to respect his outside shot, that makes it much easier for him to use his real strength - getting to the rim. Like you said he'll have to finish better, and hopefully start getting calls.

Interestingly, he's gotten off to a faster start than any rookie, save Davis and maybe Lillard (though Lillard isn't shooting particularly well - he's been a volume scorer so far).

[gotribe31]

For what it's worth, ESPiN ranks Waiters as the #12 rookie in the NBA right now.

January 16, 2013

Jan. 16: Do you remember a former No. 4 pick from Syracuse who scored in double figures frequently as a rookie? He had 27 games with 10 or more points and six games of 20 or more points. He was very athletic and oozed potential, showing off his array of physical talents with sweet-looking jumpers or emphatic dunks in transition. But our rookie report kept focusing on something deeper: A problem with his style of play:
"[He] may look like a slasher, but he plays like a gunner. Outside of the rare transition shot, he almost never takes shots from inside 15 feet. It's a problem to be that dependent on an outside shot at such a young age (though he's old for a rookie, he's still a young player), and his shot dispersal looks like it comes from someone who is immobile, which [he] is not. The fact is, he's made more 3s than he's attempted free throws."

That player was Wes Johnson, a guy the Minnesota Timberwolves were once so high on and now sits on the bench in Phoenix most nights, averaging fewer than three points a game for the Suns. He's destined for either Europe next fall or to an NBA team on a minimum contract ... if he plays well in summer league.

So why am I writing about Johnson in a section about Waiters, besides their sharing the same college team and top-5 draft status? Because Waiters tends to have the same problems Johnson did. Johnson thought he was playing well, racking up all those double-figure scoring games, being selected to the Rookie-Sophomore Game and ultimately earning a place on the All-Rookie second team. It was all fool's gold, of course, as those honors go to players with good raw statistics. And as we know now, advanced metrics rule the day, as they should.

Johnson was not an effective player as a rookie, just a pretty one, and over time his game has been exposed. Let's get one thing straight, though: Waiters is far more talented than Johnson. His ability to blow by defenders and then elevate at the rim is at an elite level. And his long-range shooting is solid with the potential to be special.

Still, as I've mentioned in this space before, he has a problem with shot selection. He continues to launch long or contested jumpers and fade-aways when opponents are struggling to keep him from the basket. Although he is more aggressive than Johnson was in terms of going at defenders, he's not getting to the line nearly as much as he should, either. And Waiters is built to get to the line; Johnson isn't. Waiters just has to get that kind of mindset.

Take his terrific 33-point game against Sacramento on Monday night. The Kings acted as if they were allergic to Waiters in the paint and he soared to the rim at will. Yet he still chose to shoot at least five bad shots when he had the time and the matchup to attack. It's not his fault the Cavs lost, but if he ever learns that he is capable of some 40-point games when he attacks the basket relentlessly, the Cavs will win more games and he will launch himself into ROY consideration.

Yes, you read that right.

Waiters is clearly learning how to play in the NBA, and if he continues to develop through March, he'll end up being one of the top three rookies in this class. The ROY award is based mostly on raw numbers, and Waiters could be averaging more than 18 points a game by season's end. Keep your eyes on his free throw attempts. His ROY status will be directly proportional to that number going up.

[scott]

Kid is a bit of a mess right now. 1 of 9 shooting in 20 minutes last night. I don't know what he needs, but Byron Scott should be able to sort him out. If he can't we might have the wrong coach.

[Gradysmanldy]

Well, Waiters was the guy he wanted, so he better. Kid has all the tools in the world, just needs to work on improving that jumper (finding any consistency with it) and getting better at finishing at the cup.

[StewieG]

And taking better shots. And learning to play off the ball more.