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Feelings Moving Forward

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Feelings Moving Forward

Unread postby andrew6586 » Mon Dec 31, 2012 12:56 pm

Just thought I'd start a thread so that everyone can voice their opinions on this team moving forward. What are your feelings? Are you excited? Are you worried about who Haslam and Banner could bring in? I'll go first

I'm excited. I think that the Lombardi rumors were started by him and it's not happening. I hope I'm right. I really like Haslam and think he's smart enough to know not to become Jerry Jones or Dan Snyder. I am skeptical about Banner but trust his track record. I am really excited for what comes next for this team. We have a ton of young talent and I think this job will be attractive to coaches. It may not be the most glamorous job but it will be better than in some places. The freedoms that Banner and Haslam are offering (control over the 53) is something that they will not have in some places.

I think things are looking up and we need to trust these guys. We all celebrated when Haslam bought the team. We can't trash the guy after the first couple of moves he makes. I trust in the FO for the first time in a long time. Go Browns.
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Re: Feelings Moving Forward

Unread postby Hikohadon » Mon Dec 31, 2012 1:00 pm

andrew6586 wrote:What are your feelings?

Meh.

andrew6586 wrote:Are you excited?

No.

andrew6586 wrote:Are you worried about who Haslam and Banner could bring in?

Yes. As much as I will allow myself to worry about such things, which isn't much these days.
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Re: Feelings Moving Forward

Unread postby andrew6586 » Mon Dec 31, 2012 1:05 pm

Good presser. Not sure if it means anything but it appears that what we thought is confirmed: the GM will be more of a personel guy.
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Re: Feelings Moving Forward

Unread postby Hikohadon » Mon Dec 31, 2012 1:08 pm

Haslam has said "candidly" 300 times so far.
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Re: Feelings Moving Forward

Unread postby mattvan1 » Mon Dec 31, 2012 1:29 pm

Hikohadon wrote:
andrew6586 wrote:What are your feelings?

Meh.

andrew6586 wrote:Are you excited?

No.

andrew6586 wrote:Are you worried about who Haslam and Banner could bring in?

Yes. As much as I will allow myself to worry about such things, which isn't much these days.


Sums up my feelings exactly.
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Re: Feelings Moving Forward

Unread postby General » Mon Dec 31, 2012 1:30 pm

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

F the Browns, F their never-ending rebuilds, F Haslem, F Banner, and F any and all new guys, F Shurmur and that stupid look on his face, F Heckert and F everything past and present about this "organization'

Stop buying tickets, empty that useless oval on the lake front and bulldoze it into the filthy lake. Level The Berea facility for a new airport and convention center. Move on without the retarded sports teams.

Where's the tylenol?
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Re: Feelings Moving Forward

Unread postby motherscratcher » Mon Dec 31, 2012 1:33 pm

Hikohadon wrote:Haslam has said "candidly" 300 times so far.


Take out the "idl" and I'm in. I don't care if it's the stripper, striper, or sugar variety, I'm on board with the Haslem Candy plan every sunday. Would distract me from shitty football.
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Re: Feelings Moving Forward

Unread postby mistero » Mon Dec 31, 2012 2:17 pm

Yes, I'm excited. We have a very good young roster. I think Weeden can be a good starter next year and for the next 5-6 years. I think we have good talent on both lines. I like the young WR's and linebackers. We need some peieces parts, especially at S and CB, but nothing that can't be done in one off season.

Give me a vet HC and I'm happy.
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Re: Feelings Moving Forward

Unread postby Erie Warrior » Mon Dec 31, 2012 2:22 pm

General wrote:ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

F the Browns, F their never-ending rebuilds, F Haslem, F Banner, and F any and all new guys, F Shurmur and that stupid look on his face, F Heckert and F everything past and present about this "organization'

Stop buying tickets, empty that useless oval on the lake front and bulldoze it into the filthy lake. Level The Berea facility for a new airport and convention center. Move on without the retarded sports teams.

Where's the tylenol?


^^^ +1
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Re: Feelings Moving Forward

Unread postby Cleveland Transplant » Mon Dec 31, 2012 6:35 pm

A new group of good ol' boys to replace the previous good ol' boys. Meh.

Weedon will probably not be the starter for the Browns next season. The most important position in the NFL has been nothing but question marks ever since '99. It's no wonder it's rebuild after rebuild after rebuild.

Holgrem took the money and ran - he wanted no part of this city or organization. It was an easy payday for him. Lerner had no interest in this organization since his father died. Mangini nor Shurmer ever stood a chance and it didn't matter how bad/good they were/are, the writing on the wall for them was almost immediate in this organization; they were set up to fail. It's really been a waste of nearly a decade now for this team.

All of this talk of our "talented young core" brings me back to 2007 when we all thought the Browns were on the up and up. 2 rebuilds later, here we are starting over again.

Eventually you need to stick with your QB and HC. You need to build a culture and you need stability.

Until then, meh.
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Re: Feelings Moving Forward

Unread postby pup » Mon Dec 31, 2012 6:43 pm

Cleveland Transplant wrote:A new group of good ol' boys to replace the previous good ol' boys. Meh.

Weedon will probably not be the starter for the Browns next season. The most important position in the NFL has been nothing but question marks ever since '99. It's no wonder it's rebuild after rebuild after rebuild.

Holgrem took the money and ran - he wanted no part of this city or organization. It was an easy payday for him. Lerner had no interest in this organization since his father died. Mangini nor Shurmer ever stood a chance and it didn't matter how bad/good they were/are, the writing on the wall for them was almost immediate in this organization; they were set up to fail. It's really been a waste of nearly a decade now for this team.

All of this talk of our "talented young core" brings me back to 2007 when we all thought the Browns were on the up and up. 2 rebuilds later, here we are starting over again.

Eventually you need to pick a good QB and hire a good HC and then you can stick with your QB and HC. You need to build a culture and you need stability.

Until then, meh.
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Re: Feelings Moving Forward

Unread postby leadpipe » Mon Dec 31, 2012 6:44 pm

Cleveland Transplant wrote:A new group of good ol' boys to replace the previous good ol' boys. Meh.

Weedon will probably not be the starter for the Browns next season. The most important position in the NFL has been nothing but question marks ever since '99. It's no wonder it's rebuild after rebuild after rebuild.

Holgrem took the money and ran - he wanted no part of this city or organization. It was an easy payday for him. Lerner had no interest in this organization since his father died. Mangini nor Shurmer ever stood a chance and it didn't matter how bad/good they were/are, the writing on the wall for them was almost immediate in this organization; they were set up to fail. It's really been a waste of nearly a decade now for this team.

All of this talk of our "talented young core" brings me back to 2007 when we all thought the Browns were on the up and up. 2 rebuilds later, here we are starting over again.

Eventually you need to stick with your QB and HC. You need to build a culture and you need stability.

Until then, meh.


Continuity???

So we should have stuck with Palmer. Kept Romeo for continuity? Build a culture under DA?

And the talent level in 2007 is nowhere near what it is now.

Really, the way you have a good team is having good players, and smart people running it. Which, incidentally, is the same way you'll build continuity.

All these head coaches....all these QB's we shoulda stuck with...how bout listing all their accomplishments around the league.

Pat Shurmer....like Romeo...like Palmer...like Couch...like Quinn...ets. were in way over their heads. Period. Were just not good enough. Period.

Yeah, eventually you need to stick with a head coach and QB...I would say about the time you find one or the other that's worth a shit.
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Re: Feelings Moving Forward

Unread postby Cleveland Transplant » Mon Dec 31, 2012 6:52 pm

You can't build a successful organization by changing your QB's every year and switching your head coaches every 2. Continuity and stability are the biggest reasons why teams like the Patriots or Packers win. This is a completely inept organization since it's return, from the very top to the very bottom. It didn't matter if you had veteran QB's with decent enough track records (Garcia, Dilfer, Delhomme) or schmucks like Charlie Frye. Eventually, you need to make a decision and ride it out for AT LEAST 3 years. Same thing with a coach.

Crennel and Butch Davis had their time. They had at least 3 seasons. Mangini? Shurmer? Never had a shot and that's what the most frustrating thing is. Nobody sticks with anything here.
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Re: Feelings Moving Forward

Unread postby pup » Mon Dec 31, 2012 6:54 pm

You take a chic to dinner. She dooks all over the table during desert. You riding that thing out for a couple years?
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Re: Feelings Moving Forward

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Mon Dec 31, 2012 7:02 pm

Spoken from pre-marriage experience Pup?
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Re: Feelings Moving Forward

Unread postby Cleveland Transplant » Mon Dec 31, 2012 7:04 pm

pup wrote:You take a chic to dinner. She dooks all over the table during desert. You riding that thing out for a couple years?


depends on the dookie we're talking about here and what caused it. She dook because of the bad food or conversation?

Pretty sure the Browns have Crohn's regardless.
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Re: Feelings Moving Forward

Unread postby googleeph2 » Mon Dec 31, 2012 7:20 pm

pup wrote:You take a chic to dinner. She dooks all over the table during desert. You riding that thing out for a couple years?


Good analogy. You root for her, even while she proves she is not the one. Afterward, you thank her and compliment her as you begin the process of transitioning to the next one.

It wasn't necessarily her fault that she did not possess the necessary qualities to make it work.

You have a short list of successors (and are intrigued as to the surprises the Rooney Rule may have in store). But if need be, the list can be expanded.

The process needs to be as short as possible, maybe as short as a week. But it could take a month. It was important to let her go ASAP and begin the process now, since there are many openings where promising candidates may land.

You will have the 'final say'.
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Re: Feelings Moving Forward

Unread postby Triple-S » Mon Dec 31, 2012 7:22 pm

I don't care.

get whatever needs to be done, done. I don't care what it takes, I don't care who's drafted, or who's released to free agency.

I have no loyalty towards anything but the damn colors and the name before the word "Browns". I don't care if you have to change the jersey, the colors, the helmets, burn berea down and rebuild it again, build a dome on the damn stadium.

Stop being a doormat, stop with the culture of losing, stop the sucking. Become the model franchise that everyone points to and says "Man, I want to be that team" ,"Man, that's the type of guy we should have as Head Coach" or "Man, I wish we had that QB". Become the Patriots, Lead, don't follow.

Tired of the damn losing. Tired of the mediocrity. Win, Win now, and win often.
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Re: Feelings Moving Forward

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Mon Dec 31, 2012 7:22 pm

^ I typically root for chicks dookying all over the table at the restaurant and then thank them for the experience.
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Re: Feelings Moving Forward

Unread postby Triple-S » Mon Dec 31, 2012 7:31 pm

Now, this all being said?

I'm fully prepared to see us forcefed garbage again.

I think we'll see us getting some idiot that's Pat Shurmer pt. 2, and the fanbase will pretty much deflate/stay the same.
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Re: Feelings Moving Forward

Unread postby motherscratcher » Mon Dec 31, 2012 8:17 pm

pup wrote:You take a chic to dinner. She dooks all over the table during desert. You riding that thing out for a couple years?


How big are her bewbs?
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Re: Feelings Moving Forward

Unread postby motherscratcher » Mon Dec 31, 2012 8:21 pm

Cleveland Transplant wrote:You can't build a successful organization by changing your QB's every year and switching your head coaches every 2. Continuity and stability are the biggest reasons why teams like the Patriots or Packers win. This is a completely inept organization since it's return, from the very top to the very bottom. It didn't matter if you had veteran QB's with decent enough track records (Garcia, Dilfer, Delhomme) or schmucks like Charlie Frye. Eventually, you need to make a decision and ride it out for AT LEAST 3 years. Same thing with a coach.

Crennel and Butch Davis had their time. They had at least 3 seasons. Mangini? Shurmer? Never had a shot and that's what the most frustrating thing is. Nobody sticks with anything here.


Sure. We all want continuity. Great. Give me the head coach/QB tandem that would have made it work in Cleveland if they weren't run out of town before they had a chance to "continue"?

Tell me which QB we gave up on prematurely that has gone on to great and wonderful things at another franchise?

Which Head Coach was it that has made it to the playoffs with another organization after the Browns gave up too soon?

The most notable thing any of them have done since being in Cleveland was the DA presser where he went viral looking like a complete asshole.
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Re: Feelings Moving Forward

Unread postby leadpipe » Mon Dec 31, 2012 8:30 pm

Cleveland Transplant wrote:You can't build a successful organization by changing your QB's every year and switching your head coaches every 2. Continuity and stability are the biggest reasons why teams like the Patriots or Packers win. This is a completely inept organization since it's return, from the very top to the very bottom. It didn't matter if you had veteran QB's with decent enough track records (Garcia, Dilfer, Delhomme) or schmucks like Charlie Frye. Eventually, you need to make a decision and ride it out for AT LEAST 3 years. Same thing with a coach.

Crennel and Butch Davis had their time. They had at least 3 seasons. Mangini? Shurmer? Never had a shot and that's what the most frustrating thing is. Nobody sticks with anything here.


No, the biggest reason the Patriots and GB win is cause they've got players and coaches that know what the hell is going on.

Bill Belichik will be a good coach in any single year. Tom Brady will be a good QB in any single year. Pat Shurmer will be a dope in any single year.

Again, really, you gotta give me an example of anyone worth a shit they jettisoned. Hell, half of em' can't even get a job in the league. The fact that Pat Shurmer will never get another head coaching gig in the league is proof what a waste it would be to give him a few more years for "continuity" sake.

Your police partner is a total oaf. You gonna continue to go to battle with him for years for continuity's sake, or you gonna change it up in hopes you get someone who will take better care of your life?

My God, anyone out there who thinks firing Pat Shurmer was a bad idea...or that he'll be a head coach again someday, is batshit crazy - or failed to watch the last two years of football.
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Re: Feelings Moving Forward

Unread postby peeker643 » Mon Dec 31, 2012 8:35 pm

motherscratcher wrote:
Cleveland Transplant wrote:You can't build a successful organization by changing your QB's every year and switching your head coaches every 2. Continuity and stability are the biggest reasons why teams like the Patriots or Packers win. This is a completely inept organization since it's return, from the very top to the very bottom. It didn't matter if you had veteran QB's with decent enough track records (Garcia, Dilfer, Delhomme) or schmucks like Charlie Frye. Eventually, you need to make a decision and ride it out for AT LEAST 3 years. Same thing with a coach.

Crennel and Butch Davis had their time. They had at least 3 seasons. Mangini? Shurmer? Never had a shot and that's what the most frustrating thing is. Nobody sticks with anything here.


Sure. We all want continuity. Great. Give me the head coach/QB tandem that would have made it work in Cleveland if they weren't run out of town before they had a chance to "continue"?

Tell me which QB we gave up on prematurely that has gone on to great and wonderful things at another franchise?

Which Head Coach was it that has made it to the playoffs with another organization after the Browns gave up too soon?

The most notable thing any of them have done since being in Cleveland was the DA presser where he went viral looking like a complete asshole.


Romeo watched his starting LB blow his brains out. That's notable, dude. Way more notable than DA looking like an asshole. He did that for multiple seasons.

All I can picture is Pioli and Romeo playing Vincent & Jules in the back of the car when I think about it.

Too soon?

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Re: Feelings Moving Forward

Unread postby andrew6586 » Mon Dec 31, 2012 8:45 pm

pup wrote:You take a chic to dinner. She dooks all over the table during desert. You riding that thing out for a couple years?

How else would I know that my wife was "the one"?
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Re: Feelings Moving Forward

Unread postby Cleveland Transplant » Mon Dec 31, 2012 11:01 pm

motherscratcher wrote:
Cleveland Transplant wrote:You can't build a successful organization by changing your QB's every year and switching your head coaches every 2. Continuity and stability are the biggest reasons why teams like the Patriots or Packers win. This is a completely inept organization since it's return, from the very top to the very bottom. It didn't matter if you had veteran QB's with decent enough track records (Garcia, Dilfer, Delhomme) or schmucks like Charlie Frye. Eventually, you need to make a decision and ride it out for AT LEAST 3 years. Same thing with a coach.

Crennel and Butch Davis had their time. They had at least 3 seasons. Mangini? Shurmer? Never had a shot and that's what the most frustrating thing is. Nobody sticks with anything here.


Sure. We all want continuity. Great. Give me the head coach/QB tandem that would have made it work in Cleveland if they weren't run out of town before they had a chance to "continue"?

Tell me which QB we gave up on prematurely that has gone on to great and wonderful things at another franchise?

Which Head Coach was it that has made it to the playoffs with another organization after the Browns gave up too soon?

The most notable thing any of them have done since being in Cleveland was the DA presser where he went viral looking like a complete asshole.


Pat Shurmur will get another HC job somewhere in the NFL. Guys like him will get another shot, especially since this was the first gig he's received and he worked for the Cleveland Browns. Dude's only in his 40's - another organization will take him in and see what else he can do.

I think Mangini should have been given at least another year, but he was gone as soon as the beginning of his second year - his last season was wasted. And to a certain extent, I think Shurmur should have been given another as well. That's not saying that he's the greatest coach or that I'm defending things like the stale offense and clock mismanagement, but he certainly wasn't set-up for success either; he knew he was gone back in July. And neither have McCoy or Weeden. Two shotgun quarterbacks and you're going to put them in the mess we have? Doesn't make any sense at all. And I would say the same for pretty much any other QB that would come in to the Browns the past 10 years: None have really had been set up for success. It is an inept organization and anybody who has come in knows in the back of their mind that another rebuild will take place in a year or two. I

In today's NFL - you don't need to necessarily draft QB's all that high or RB's. The game has changed and the talent has changed. You can make a 7th round QB a multiple Superbowl winner as long as you play to their strengths, build stability, and give it time. None of which the Browns have done for anybody.

Look at a guy like Matt Cassel taking over Tom Brady back in '08 and the success he had there. Then compare it to his time at the Chiefs. Look, not a great quarterback by any stretch. But the Patriots have a culture of winning and strong stability and Belicheck has been given time and opportunities to really do things there. Aaron Rodgers was a late first round pick - same thing about the Packers org. A lot of it is absolutely great coaching but it's also great ownership and management. Something nobody has been given since the Browns restarted; it's been a complete revolving door and cash grab. No continuity means you have no success and that's true in almost all facets of business.

For me, next season, I have a QB competition between Lewis, Weeden, and McCoy and it gets settled one way or the other. The past 10 years have already been a waste anyways and they aren't going to the playoffs, so what's more year if you need to find out who your QB is? No clear, definite answers have been given about any of them and the draft for QB's stinks. So have the competition, play the season out with the one guy you have chosen, and you make a decision to move forward. In FA, I'm going after veteran WR's and in the draft, I'm going after pass rushers. For coaching, I give the guy a minimum of 3-4 years.

But, anyways. It's all just meh.
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Re: Feelings Moving Forward

Unread postby leadpipe » Mon Dec 31, 2012 11:51 pm

Cleveland Transplant wrote:
motherscratcher wrote:
Cleveland Transplant wrote:You can't build a successful organization by changing your QB's every year and switching your head coaches every 2. Continuity and stability are the biggest reasons why teams like the Patriots or Packers win. This is a completely inept organization since it's return, from the very top to the very bottom. It didn't matter if you had veteran QB's with decent enough track records (Garcia, Dilfer, Delhomme) or schmucks like Charlie Frye. Eventually, you need to make a decision and ride it out for AT LEAST 3 years. Same thing with a coach.

Crennel and Butch Davis had their time. They had at least 3 seasons. Mangini? Shurmer? Never had a shot and that's what the most frustrating thing is. Nobody sticks with anything here.


Sure. We all want continuity. Great. Give me the head coach/QB tandem that would have made it work in Cleveland if they weren't run out of town before they had a chance to "continue"?

Tell me which QB we gave up on prematurely that has gone on to great and wonderful things at another franchise?

Which Head Coach was it that has made it to the playoffs with another organization after the Browns gave up too soon?

The most notable thing any of them have done since being in Cleveland was the DA presser where he went viral looking like a complete asshole.


Pat Shurmur will get another HC job somewhere in the NFL. Guys like him will get another shot, especially since this was the first gig he's received and he worked for the Cleveland Browns. Dude's only in his 40's - another organization will take him in and see what else he can do.

I think Mangini should have been given at least another year, but he was gone as soon as the beginning of his second year - his last season was wasted. And to a certain extent, I think Shurmur should have been given another as well. That's not saying that he's the greatest coach or that I'm defending things like the stale offense and clock mismanagement, but he certainly wasn't set-up for success either; he knew he was gone back in July. And neither have McCoy or Weeden. Two shotgun quarterbacks and you're going to put them in the mess we have? Doesn't make any sense at all. And I would say the same for pretty much any other QB that would come in to the Browns the past 10 years: None have really had been set up for success. It is an inept organization and anybody who has come in knows in the back of their mind that another rebuild will take place in a year or two. I

In today's NFL - you don't need to necessarily draft QB's all that high or RB's. The game has changed and the talent has changed. You can make a 7th round QB a multiple Superbowl winner as long as you play to their strengths, build stability, and give it time. None of which the Browns have done for anybody.

Look at a guy like Matt Cassel taking over Tom Brady back in '08 and the success he had there. Then compare it to his time at the Chiefs. Look, not a great quarterback by any stretch. But the Patriots have a culture of winning and strong stability and Belicheck has been given time and opportunities to really do things there. Aaron Rodgers was a late first round pick - same thing about the Packers org. A lot of it is absolutely great coaching but it's also great ownership and management. Something nobody has been given since the Browns restarted; it's been a complete revolving door and cash grab. No continuity means you have no success and that's true in almost all facets of business.

For me, next season, I have a QB competition between Lewis, Weeden, and McCoy and it gets settled one way or the other. The past 10 years have already been a waste anyways and they aren't going to the playoffs, so what's more year if you need to find out who your QB is? No clear, definite answers have been given about any of them and the draft for QB's stinks. So have the competition, play the season out with the one guy you have chosen, and you make a decision to move forward. In FA, I'm going after veteran WR's and in the draft, I'm going after pass rushers. For coaching, I give the guy a minimum of 3-4 years.

But, anyways. It's all just meh.


You do realize that practically every good QB in the league was a first round draft pick - an exrememly high first round pick in most cases. Matt Cassell was a product of a great organization playing the easiest schedule in the league that year. Matt Cassell stinks. So you can yell Tom Brady, like you can yell Trent Dilfer....but if you wanna play extreme exceptions you're going to be on the losing end of those battles.

To take it a step further, in today's NFL QB is so important anyone that appears to have a shot at being halfway decent gets drafted higher than they have a right to be. Tanneyhill and Weeden aren't selected in those spots 10 years ago.

So, if you don't get your QB as a blue chipper coming out of college, you're in deep shit. Period. Facts is facts.

You are out of order in regard to the NFL and business. You EARN your years by being PRODUCTIVE. The best companies in this country aren't letting rummies hang around for "team building" or any other bullshit.

Bill Belichek EARNED his years in New England. He was gifted nothing. Pat Shurmer failed to earn his years here, and he was rightfully kicked to the curb.

He will not be hired as a head guy again. And it's important to remember he was on NOBODYS radar before he came here. He came as a patsy for Holmgren. And everyone in the league knows it.

And a QB battle between Weeden, Lewis and McCoy will bring you another year of "continuity" and another year of "Losing." If they had a chance to bring in a good player at the position you'd have a chance to win - even though he hasn't been around long enough to grab all those wonderful things continuity would bring.

Was San Fran in better shape under Mike Singletary in his last season, or were they better when they got a guy in there that knows what the hell is going on?

Man, sometimes I think I'm watchin' a different sport.
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Re: Feelings Moving Forward

Unread postby LakeErieWarriors » Tue Jan 01, 2013 12:23 am

Another thing--And this isn't Browns specific. How many QB's have shown McCoy et al. levels of suck, undergone 3-4 yrs. of 'progression' and become elite? I can't think of any. 0 former Browns QB's have, I know that for sure.

And taking QB's late in the draft and them turning out to be elite? Very, very rare. Brady's the only one I can think of off the top of my head over the past 10 yrs.

As far as coaches? I wasn't truly excited for any of the new Browns' hires. Yes, I was excited bc I'm a dumbass Browns fan and I can talk myself into thinking a guy like Shurmur could work if I try hard enough, but deep down, I know they're shit. Mangini? All the talent he had on those Jets teams and couldn't take them all the way? Then we dove at him just like that same regime would've dove at Rex if the Jets weren't equally stupid enough to keep him around.

I do have faith that Haslam and Banner will get it right but again, I'm just a dumbass Browns fan.
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Re: Feelings Moving Forward

Unread postby Cleveland Transplant » Tue Jan 01, 2013 12:56 am

leadpipe wrote:You do realize that practically every good QB in the league was a first round draft pick - an exrememly high first round pick in most cases. Matt Cassell was a product of a great organization playing the easiest schedule in the league that year. Matt Cassell stinks. So you can yell Tom Brady, like you can yell Trent Dilfer....but if you wanna play extreme exceptions you're going to be on the losing end of those battles.

To take it a step further, in today's NFL QB is so important anyone that appears to have a shot at being halfway decent gets drafted higher than they have a right to be. Tanneyhill and Weeden aren't selected in those spots 10 years ago.

So, if you don't get your QB as a blue chipper coming out of college, you're in deep shit. Period. Facts is facts.

You are out of order in regard to the NFL and business. You EARN your years by being PRODUCTIVE. The best companies in this country aren't letting rummies hang around for "team building" or any other bullshit.

Bill Belicheck EARNED his years in New England. He was gifted nothing. Pat Shurmer failed to earn his years here, and he was rightfully kicked to the curb.


Bill Belichick was given complete authority on what to do right off the bat. He didn't "earn" anything right away in NE. He WAS gifted that type of authority. And it wasn't like he had an outstanding record here in Cleveland other than in 94, or a great record with the Pats his first year.

There have been plenty of guys who have been productive who were still canned. Look at Lovie Smith. Overall, a pretty good coach with a lot of wins. A guy who would be hailed here in Cleveland for his record and is considered a productive coach by most standards.

If you honestly think Pat Shurmur was set up for success here, then I don't know what to tell you. Lerner didn't give a shit. Holmgrem didn't give a shit. He was left out to dry. And again, not excusing his on the field decisions, but let's be real. He never had a shot and he was gone as soon as he was hired. Nobody expected Holgrem or this regime to stick more than a couple years despite their "5 year plan." And that's been true for every regime since this organizations inception in 99.

The NFL is just as much of a good ol' boys club as anything else and coaches and management get hired and brought in too often because they're buddies with the owner or have ties to them somehow. It's not always about productivity, it's about bringing in "your guys." Haslem, Holgrem, Savage, Policy, etc. all did it and every organization does it.

He will not be hired as a head guy again. And it's important to remember he was on NOBODYS radar before he came here. He came as a patsy for Holmgren. And everyone in the league knows it.


Mark my words - he'll be a HC somewhere again. Just watch.

And a QB battle between Weeden, Lewis and McCoy will bring you another year of "continuity" and another year of "Losing." If they had a chance to bring in a good player at the position you'd have a chance to win - even though he hasn't been around long enough to grab all those wonderful things continuity would bring.


What does it matter at this point? It's already been a wasted decade, with too many questions surrounding these two guys. You might as well settle it and what's one more year? The team isn't going to do much next year no matter who comes in, the QB class stinks, and I'm not expecting a guy like Alex Smith to come here. So you might as well work with what you got and then if it fails, go hard at the next QB class.

Was San Fran in better shape under Mike Singletary in his last season, or were they better when they got a guy in there that knows what the hell is going on?


Mike Singletary's approach doesn't work in the NFL as a HC. Works better on the college level or coordinator level, but not as an NFL HC. Obviously they're better. And Singletary needed to be let go, there isn't a question about that. It was evident that the team and staff gave up on him. If there's one thing that can be credited to Browns players is that they've never (clearly) given up on any of the coaches here, unlike Singletary and Andy Reid this year.
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Re: Feelings Moving Forward

Unread postby justmebd » Tue Jan 01, 2013 1:02 am

motherscratcher wrote:
Cleveland Transplant wrote:You can't build a successful organization by changing your QB's every year and switching your head coaches every 2. Continuity and stability are the biggest reasons why teams like the Patriots or Packers win. This is a completely inept organization since it's return, from the very top to the very bottom. It didn't matter if you had veteran QB's with decent enough track records (Garcia, Dilfer, Delhomme) or schmucks like Charlie Frye. Eventually, you need to make a decision and ride it out for AT LEAST 3 years. Same thing with a coach.

Crennel and Butch Davis had their time. They had at least 3 seasons. Mangini? Shurmer? Never had a shot and that's what the most frustrating thing is. Nobody sticks with anything here.


Sure. We all want continuity. Great. Give me the head coach/QB tandem that would have made it work in Cleveland if they weren't run out of town before they had a chance to "continue"?

Tell me which QB we gave up on prematurely that has gone on to great and wonderful things at another franchise?

Which Head Coach was it that has made it to the playoffs with another organization after the Browns gave up too soon?

The most notable thing any of them have done since being in Cleveland was the DA presser where he went viral looking like a complete asshole.

This.

Palmer was a blah coach who obviously hasn't made a splash anywhere else.

Butch Davis is Butch Davis and Romeo Crennel is Romeo Crennel.

Mangini should have been a great coach, but instead he decided to be a fuckstick who did everything in his power to prove he was right and you were wrong instead of just trying to build a winning team. When we hired him five minutes after the Jets fired him, I clearly remember telling several friends/family, "You know, he was fired from the Jets for a REASON."

SHUR . . . . Jesus Christ I'm glad that putz is gone, because that's all he'll ever be when it comes to head-coaching, a putz.
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Re: Feelings Moving Forward

Unread postby googleeph2 » Tue Jan 01, 2013 10:30 am

A couple years ago, Swerb was despairing that there was no hope with the Browns as long as Randy Lerner was owner. My thought was why the diss? He was the money man who stayed out of the way of the football people. It became obvious to me that the owner needs to play a role, at least in the setting up of the org. With that in mind, I look at shurmur as just a symptom. Him leaving would not have been that big a deal if Lerner were still in place. The 'sustainable success' stuff/HC & GM synergy stuff from the PC with Haslam and Banner was very nice to hear.

Agree on the QBs showing their true colors early on. The only exception I can think of was Sipe. And Jim Plunkett. Both in their 60s now. Although I would like to see Weeden have a chance to compete in the new off. system. There may not be a switch that can be turned on, but a new coach can play to strengths. Like Sam with Sipe, after Gregg.

That said, my biggest concern about Weeden was not locking onto receivers, resulting in picks, incompletions and balls batted down. It was not immobility. It was not the constant checking down to the back if the primary receiver was covered (the D was always ready and had the back blanketed for a tackle to force 4th down). It was not the AARP card in his wallet. What really bothered me was the second freaking time he threw the ball away on 4th down this season. That speaks to something important, I do feel certain!
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Re: Feelings Moving Forward

Unread postby leadpipe » Tue Jan 01, 2013 11:02 am

Cleveland Transplant wrote:
leadpipe wrote:You do realize that practically every good QB in the league was a first round draft pick - an exrememly high first round pick in most cases. Matt Cassell was a product of a great organization playing the easiest schedule in the league that year. Matt Cassell stinks. So you can yell Tom Brady, like you can yell Trent Dilfer....but if you wanna play extreme exceptions you're going to be on the losing end of those battles.

To take it a step further, in today's NFL QB is so important anyone that appears to have a shot at being halfway decent gets drafted higher than they have a right to be. Tanneyhill and Weeden aren't selected in those spots 10 years ago.

So, if you don't get your QB as a blue chipper coming out of college, you're in deep shit. Period. Facts is facts.

You are out of order in regard to the NFL and business. You EARN your years by being PRODUCTIVE. The best companies in this country aren't letting rummies hang around for "team building" or any other bullshit.

Bill Belicheck EARNED his years in New England. He was gifted nothing. Pat Shurmer failed to earn his years here, and he was rightfully kicked to the curb.


Bill Belichick was given complete authority on what to do right off the bat. He didn't "earn" anything right away in NE. He WAS gifted that type of authority. And it wasn't like he had an outstanding record here in Cleveland other than in 94, or a great record with the Pats his first year.

There have been plenty of guys who have been productive who were still canned. Look at Lovie Smith. Overall, a pretty good coach with a lot of wins. A guy who would be hailed here in Cleveland for his record and is considered a productive coach by most standards.

If you honestly think Pat Shurmur was set up for success here, then I don't know what to tell you. Lerner didn't give a shit. Holmgrem didn't give a shit. He was left out to dry. And again, not excusing his on the field decisions, but let's be real. He never had a shot and he was gone as soon as he was hired. Nobody expected Holgrem or this regime to stick more than a couple years despite their "5 year plan." And that's been true for every regime since this organizations inception in 99.

The NFL is just as much of a good ol' boys club as anything else and coaches and management get hired and brought in too often because they're buddies with the owner or have ties to them somehow. It's not always about productivity, it's about bringing in "your guys." Haslem, Holgrem, Savage, Policy, etc. all did it and every organization does it.

He will not be hired as a head guy again. And it's important to remember he was on NOBODYS radar before he came here. He came as a patsy for Holmgren. And everyone in the league knows it.


Mark my words - he'll be a HC somewhere again. Just watch.

And a QB battle between Weeden, Lewis and McCoy will bring you another year of "continuity" and another year of "Losing." If they had a chance to bring in a good player at the position you'd have a chance to win - even though he hasn't been around long enough to grab all those wonderful things continuity would bring.


What does it matter at this point? It's already been a wasted decade, with too many questions surrounding these two guys. You might as well settle it and what's one more year? The team isn't going to do much next year no matter who comes in, the QB class stinks, and I'm not expecting a guy like Alex Smith to come here. So you might as well work with what you got and then if it fails, go hard at the next QB class.

Was San Fran in better shape under Mike Singletary in his last season, or were they better when they got a guy in there that knows what the hell is going on?


Mike Singletary's approach doesn't work in the NFL as a HC. Works better on the college level or coordinator level, but not as an NFL HC. Obviously they're better. And Singletary needed to be let go, there isn't a question about that. It was evident that the team and staff gave up on him. If there's one thing that can be credited to Browns players is that they've never (clearly) given up on any of the coaches here, unlike Singletary and Andy Reid this year.


So, Mike Singletary should be fired, without regard for continuity, yet Pat Shurmer - a guy that doesn't understand the 2:00 warning and runs an offense from 1980 should be kept for continuity.

Sounds like a clear and consistent point to me.

The reason you believe Singletary should have been canned is because he blew. Same reason that everyone with half a brain believes Shurmer should be.

And what authority Belichik was given has no bearing on future years should he have sucked. He earned his next year by being good in the current one. Clearly.

And it's funny you bring up Lovie Smith. His phones has reportedly rung four different times already. They'll be damn near 10 openings and Shurmer's phone won't ring once.

Shurmer a head coach again? Whatta you wanna wager?
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Re: Feelings Moving Forward

Unread postby pod2dawg » Tue Jan 01, 2013 11:13 am

Lovie & Reid will be hired as HC by the 10th somewhere.

Shurm will end up OC for someone like the Lions, never a HC offer again.
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Re: Feelings Moving Forward

Unread postby googleeph2 » Tue Jan 01, 2013 11:15 am

Lead and pod, even Romeo got hired again. I wouldn't wager either side on Shurmur. He won't be a HC next year, but he is young. Plenty of time for an effective QB to make him look decent, to someone from the same 'tree'. Or someone who shares his agent.
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Re: Feelings Moving Forward

Unread postby Cleveland Transplant » Tue Jan 01, 2013 11:21 am

leadpipe wrote:So, Mike Singletary should be fired, without regard for continuity, yet Pat Shurmer - a guy that doesn't understand the 2:00 warning and runs an offense from 1980 should be kept for continuity.

Sounds like a clear and consistent point to me.

The reason you believe Singletary should have been canned is because he blew. Same reason that everyone with half a brain believes Shurmer should be.


Apples and oranges. Singletary couldn't get along with his staff or his team, fired his offensive coordinator midway through the season, players publicly demanded to be traded....you're talking an outright mutiny during his last year there. There wasn't anything of the sort here in Cleveland. Singletary had to go - there wasn't a choice there.

Shumur? There was at least some growth and better decision making between this year and last. Example: He had all of his timeouts in the 4th quarter of the last game. ;-) ;) :wink:

And what authority Belichik was given has no bearing on future years should he have sucked. He earned his next year by being good in the current one. Clearly.


My point was this: sometimes, it's not always about productivity in the NFL. Sometimes, it's just about the people you know or just simply want. Coaches often just get hired regardless of their previous track record. You look at Belichick's record before his Superbowl run in 2001, and it's a pretty meh record, at best, with only one winning season under his belt as HC. You take a guy with the record he had before 2001 and bring him here right now? People would lose their shit.

Shurmur is even a great example about this. It's not always about productivity or "earning" things in the NFL.

And it's funny you bring up Lovie Smith. His phones has reportedly rung four different times already. They'll be damn near 10 openings and Shurmer's phone won't ring once.

Shurmer a head coach again? Whatta you wanna wager?


How much does a beer cost these days at Browns Stadium? $8? If Shurmur never becomes HC again in the NFL, I'll Paypal you a beer. :cheers:
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Re: Feelings Moving Forward

Unread postby justmebd » Tue Jan 01, 2013 11:21 am

googleeph2 wrote:Lead and pod, even Romeo got hired again. I wouldn't wager either side on Shurmur. He won't be a HC next year, but he is young. Plenty of time for an effective QB to make him look decent, to someone from the same 'tree'. Or someone who shares his agent.

The Romeo Crennel hire in KC clearly was nepotism at its finest, and I still can't believe Pioli still has his job today.

No one outside of KC's front office thought hiring Crennel was a good decision.

Except maybe the actual team, because Romeo is a "nice guy."
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Re: Feelings Moving Forward

Unread postby pod2dawg » Tue Jan 01, 2013 11:29 am

googs, under the extreme perfect storm conditions maybe......like a walrus gets a GM job, and SHUR & he have the same agents....God help that org.

Romeo got the "interim" tag and they went 2-1 at KC before he fell to earth this year. That "tree" does not seem to produce the fruit anymore.

To whom whatever God you pray, Atheists, too this onetime......sacrifice a goat, do a dance, chew some peyote, say the Rosary, ...whatever the hell you do.....please help direct J/HAS & Banner to get this shit right this one time.
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Re: Feelings Moving Forward

Unread postby Larvell Blanks » Tue Jan 01, 2013 1:21 pm

For the love of God, the only person to look dumber and more cluless while wearing the headphones on the sidelines was Art Shell. You honestly think that other GM's and owners didn't/won't see Shurmur's body of work while in game situations and think to themselves, "Damn, we gotta get him to take it to the next level!". No one league wide saw his handling and thin skin with the local media when they questioned him? Shurmur was never mentioned as the next "it" guy when he was a coordinator on other teams. Only this last idiot regime had the balls to make him the "last coach I hire". For comments to be made that he'll be working a sideline somewhere other than the Arena League is ridiculous. As mentioned upthread, the league saw this as Shurm's being the teachers pet and not a legitimate hire that was going to catapult this organization.


and when you're starting RB is hoping the team goes after his college coach and you're starting MLB is looking forward to the "change" that's not a big vote of confidence to the outgoing coaches tenure
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Re: Feelings Moving Forward

Unread postby leadpipe » Tue Jan 01, 2013 1:55 pm

Gotta give Romeo a few more years there boys, continuity trumps inability.

And the Romeo hire got them a franchise worst record. Perhaps if this is a goal of some other NFL team out there, Shurmer should sit by the phone.
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Re: Feelings Moving Forward

Unread postby Hikohadon » Tue Jan 01, 2013 2:19 pm

googleeph2 wrote:Lead and pod, even Romeo got hired again. I wouldn't wager either side on Shurmur. He won't be a HC next year, but he is young. Plenty of time for an effective QB to make him look decent, to someone from the same 'tree'. Or someone who shares his agent.


Agree. As is, no one would hire Shurmur as a HC. No way. But if he goes to some team and runs their Offense and turns it into a top unit, he'll get sniffs again. They'll say "He's young, he has some experience, he's learned from his mistakes, he got a raw deal, and besides, it's Cleveland, where no one can succeed."

They'll say the same thing about him that some around here say about McDaniels.

Time heals many wounds, and the point that Romeo freakin' Crennel got a second job is stark evidence of that.

This is not to say he SHOULD get a second chance, I think you'd be crazier than a coked-up whore, but he MIGHT.
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Re: Feelings Moving Forward

Unread postby leadpipe » Tue Jan 01, 2013 2:59 pm

Hikohadon wrote:
googleeph2 wrote:Lead and pod, even Romeo got hired again. I wouldn't wager either side on Shurmur. He won't be a HC next year, but he is young. Plenty of time for an effective QB to make him look decent, to someone from the same 'tree'. Or someone who shares his agent.


Agree. As is, no one would hire Shurmur as a HC. No way. But if he goes to some team and runs their Offense and turns it into a top unit, he'll get sniffs again. They'll say "He's young, he has some experience, he's learned from his mistakes, he got a raw deal, and besides, it's Cleveland, where no one can succeed."

They'll say the same thing about him that some around here say about McDaniels.

Time heals many wounds, and the point that Romeo freakin' Crennel got a second job is stark evidence of that.

This is not to say he SHOULD get a second chance, I think you'd be crazier than a coked-up whore, but he MIGHT.


This of course comes with a big caveat;

Have you watched one of his offenses?

If his offenses were great before Cleveland he'd a been on some kind of radar.

They weren't.

And they blew here.

Now, to your point, I never said I'd bet my LIFE - cause, well, look at Romeo. But if I can make a bet where there is a better than 90% chance I'm correct, I'm emptying the bank account.

Hey, a worse move for the Jets than bringing in Tebow, was bringing in Sporano. Cause at least best case with the Tebow deal was that Snchez plays well and Tebow fills some sort of minor roll. Best case with Sporano was, the same thing he's always given you - bad offense. Minus the 6 weeks it took every team in the league to figure out the wildcat.

So stupid shit happens, and time heals, but man, the guy is a leaguewide joke.
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Re: Feelings Moving Forward

Unread postby Hikohadon » Tue Jan 01, 2013 3:09 pm

leadpipe wrote:
Hikohadon wrote:
googleeph2 wrote:Lead and pod, even Romeo got hired again. I wouldn't wager either side on Shurmur. He won't be a HC next year, but he is young. Plenty of time for an effective QB to make him look decent, to someone from the same 'tree'. Or someone who shares his agent.


Agree. As is, no one would hire Shurmur as a HC. No way. But if he goes to some team and runs their Offense and turns it into a top unit, he'll get sniffs again. They'll say "He's young, he has some experience, he's learned from his mistakes, he got a raw deal, and besides, it's Cleveland, where no one can succeed."

They'll say the same thing about him that some around here say about McDaniels.

Time heals many wounds, and the point that Romeo freakin' Crennel got a second job is stark evidence of that.

This is not to say he SHOULD get a second chance, I think you'd be crazier than a coked-up whore, but he MIGHT.


This of course comes with a big caveat;

Have you watched one of his offenses?

If his offenses were great before Cleveland he'd a been on some kind of radar.

They weren't.

And they blew here.

Now, to your point, I never said I'd bet my LIFE - cause, well, look at Romeo. But if I can make a bet where there is a better than 90% chance I'm correct, I'm emptying the bank account.

Hey, a worse move for the Jets than bringing in Tebow, was bringing in Sporano. Cause at least best case with the Tebow deal was that Snchez plays well and Tebow fills some sort of minor roll. Best case with Sporano was, the same thing he's always given you - bad offense. Minus the 6 weeks it took every team in the league to figure out the wildcat.

So stupid shit happens, and time heals, but man, the guy is a leaguewide joke.


Nothing I can disagree with there. His ineptitude will likely stymie his future prospects. But maybe he lucks into a job with an elite QB who bails him out and makes him look falsely competent.
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Re: Feelings Moving Forward

Unread postby jerryroche » Thu Jan 03, 2013 9:41 am

Quote MK Thursday: "[Ray] Horton runs a 3-4, but Haslam might be leaning toward that, a source said."

Just great.
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Re: Feelings Moving Forward

Unread postby Hikohadon » Thu Jan 03, 2013 11:42 am

jerryroche wrote:Quote MK Thursday: "[Ray] Horton runs a 3-4, but Haslam might be leaning toward that, a source said."

Just great.


Yeah, I think I read somewhere that Haslam prefers a 3-4, likely because they ran one in Pittsburgh and the Steelers have a good D.

Which is really simplistic thinking if true, but, whatever.
It's only progress if you eventually get somewhere.
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Re: Feelings Moving Forward

Unread postby Toxicadam » Fri Jan 04, 2013 4:44 pm

I reached a personal bottom the other day when I sincerely wished our franchise was like the Bengals. It seems like something acheivable in my lifetime.

I think it's the same kind of bargaining that makes nerds pine for Alison Brie.
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Re: Feelings Moving Forward

Unread postby Gradysmanldy » Sat Jan 05, 2013 4:43 am

Shurms about to passed over for an OC job, in his own coaching tree, where he wouldn't even have the authority to call plays. If it happens, have to think that's a poor omen.
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Re: Feelings Moving Forward

Unread postby kman_holla8 » Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:56 pm

So we established as a base line that none of the previous 5 coaches or 72 former starting QB's have done any better for themselves in the roles after they were in cleveland. However we do need to give Chip or whoever comes in 4 Years to put the plan in place and bring in there guys and have full-offseasons and mini-camps to do establish some continuity and stablility in the franchise. If Haslem / Banner and the FO can all work together and not be a dumpster fire of an organization, our future will be brighter than it has at anytime since '99. The hard part of the process will be this year and next year to a degree. This year will be about purging the old roster and figuring out who has game. 2013 will be finally having a hand full of hold-overs from pre-'12 roster, a small configuration of draft picks and (the suppose-ed) new FA and '13 draft picks who are right the system and the team. By 2014 Draft, hopefully we have a combination of 25 to 40 guys who are Haslem/Banners/HC guys who embody what they are looking for, (and another high draft pick). IMO if we can achieve that harmony going into the 2015 season,(with Baltimore and Pittsburgh continue to evolve into older, slower, teams that lack depth of years past) We can have a sense of optimisim to look towards being a playoff team.

If not, we are still the same old frustrating dumpster fire since '99...
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Re: Feelings Moving Forward

Unread postby Spin » Sat Jan 05, 2013 1:48 pm

Random wanderings...

I was watching the commercial of San Fran's locker room, and thought to myself, the Harbaughs just "look" like coaches. A guy you would run through a brick wall for.

Shur, he looks like a guy you would like playing poker against.

"If you face a third and long, obviously you did something wrong on first and second down." Bdum bum.


Sorry, back to your regularly scheduled thread...
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