The Gun Question

[FUDU]

Maybe, but I don't want to destroy my house FMB.

[British_Pharaoh]

The monarchy has no political or economic power. We're a constitutional monarchy; essentially a kingdom in name only. We're ruled by a democratic administration, your Congress is modelled very much on our Houses of Parliament. Why is this difficult to grasp? Why do you dwell on the fact that we have a long history and traditions?

The money that it costs to keep the monarchy is far outweighed by the revenue that the Queen brings into the economy.

Yes, I agree you shouldn't give a toss about what Piers Morgan has to say. He's not a citizen of the USA (unfortunately we have to claim ownership over the reptile) but I must agree with him when he says that his opinions on the Second Amendment should be respected and protected under the First Amendment. If you're so passionate and reverential over the Bill of Rights then you can't pick and choose which Rights you wish to venerate and protect, nor can you choose when to respect them depending on convenience.

It's not about being self-righteous. You have to understand we're outside observers, and its difficult for us to understand the emotional fervour that the gun debate sparks (on both sides of the coin) when gun law reform is not an issue here, since we have strict laws and very few incidents of gun violence.

What we see is absolutely ridiculous arguments in favour of a proliferation of gun ownership and in some cases, gun laws to become even more liberal. Not to mention the proposals of arming teaching or having guards patrolling all public schools.

It may be your country but if you're allowed to pontificate over the ills of foreign societies and what's broken in other nations and even become involved in the politics of overseas governments, then you have to expect some passionate views from foreigners like Piers Morgan (especially given the fact he has a show on CNN, which is a media broadcasting company in case you did not realise, so naturally the slimy snake is going to comment on topical issues. This fact cannot be hard to grasp.)

I think you will find that it is you who is the hypocrite.
You may not think foreigners have a right to criticise (even though, conversely, you and your fellows can do it with impunity) but they have a right to voice their opinions.

[Erie Warrior]

of course proof is a ridiculous term, but anyhoo...

Ruger LCR for this guy.

Watch out zombies and crazy mother fuckers, I'm packin'!

[British_Pharaoh]

Two NY firefighters murdered (by gunfire) as they serve their community by responding to a fire in Webster, New York

http://www.democratandchronicle.com/art ... r-shooting

Brilliant! It seems that even America's most venerated and heroic servants are not safe from a coward's bullet in the back.

Still enjoying that 'freedom'?

[motherscratcher]

If only there had been a teacher packing some heat somewhere in the vicinity.

[peeker643]

Two NY firefighters murdered (by gunfire) as they serve their community by responding to a fire in Webster, New York

http://www.democratandchronicle.com/art ... r-shooting

Brilliant! It seems that even America's most venerated and heroic servants are not safe from a coward's bullet in the back.

Still enjoying that 'freedom'?

No. None of us are enjoying our freedom any longer. It's all over.

You're right. It was your link that convinced all of us that everything about this place is wrong and it was also your gripping and expressive "It seems that even America's most venerated and heroic servants are not safe from a coward's bullet in the back."

Melting down anything that can be shot, wielded, thrown , swung and hurled right now.

Thank you. It appears nearly 300 years later your British sense and decency has brought us full circle. We owe you greatly.

[peeker643]

If only there had been a teacher poking some heat somewhere in the vicinity.

You really need thinner fingers, greater dexterity or a better keyboard.

[motherscratcher]

If only there had been a teacher poking some heat somewhere in the vicinity.

You really need thinner fingers, greater dexterity or a better keyboard.

I've got great dexterity. And despite my giant walrus-like physique, ive actually got dainty little girly hands. almost like David Duchovny. It's the damn iPad.

[gotribe31]

Two NY firefighters murdered (by gunfire) as they serve their community by responding to a fire in Webster, New York

http://www.democratandchronicle.com/art ... r-shooting

Brilliant! It seems that even America's most venerated and heroic servants are not safe from a coward's bullet in the back.

Still enjoying that 'freedom'?

Go. The fuck. Away. No one comes in here and posts every negative story that happens in the UK. And there are plenty of them. Countless occupied home invasions, stabbings etc. Your're paying millions of dollars to house a terrorist in the most comfortable environment imaginable because your courts are too fucking gutless to deport him to Jordan. You sentenced an SAS soldier to 18 months in prison because he brought a sidearm back from Iraq that he was given for his service.

I give you permission never to come to the US, that way you don't have to worry about all of these heinous gun crimes. Congratulations. Stay the fuck out.

[FUDU]

Why do Americans see protection of the Second Amendment as synonymous with maintaining their 'freedom' and liberty?

Are you unaware of what transpired in the last 1700's?

Can you not see the direct relation between those events and the idea for the BOR, particularly the 2nd Amendment?

Would you call the colonists reactionary?

[Cerebral_DownTime]

The 2nd Amendment is the proverbial "iron in the glove". It's most basic function is to give us the ability to protect our other rights, by force if necessary. Some people seem to miss this point.


You're welcome to have your foreigner opinion, but most Americans see this as a debate between brothers, with outsider voices just muddying the waters.

[Fire Marshall Bill 2.0]

The monarchy has no political or economic power. We're a constitutional monarchy; essentially a kingdom in name only. We're ruled by a democratic administration, your Congress is modelled very much on our Houses of Parliament. Why is this difficult to grasp? Why do you dwell on the fact that we have a long history and traditions?

The money that it costs to keep the monarchy is far outweighed by the revenue that the Queen brings into the economy.

Yes, I agree you shouldn't give a toss about what Piers Morgan has to say. He's not a citizen of the USA (unfortunately we have to claim ownership over the reptile) but I must agree with him when he says that his opinions on the Second Amendment should be respected and protected under the First Amendment. If you're so passionate and reverential over the Bill of Rights then you can't pick and choose which Rights you wish to venerate and protect, nor can you choose when to respect them depending on convenience.

It's not about being self-righteous. You have to understand we're outside observers, and its difficult for us to understand the emotional fervour that the gun debate sparks (on both sides of the coin) when gun law reform is not an issue here, since we have strict laws and very few incidents of gun violence.

What we see is absolutely ridiculous arguments in favour of a proliferation of gun ownership and in some cases, gun laws to become even more liberal. Not to mention the proposals of arming teaching or having guards patrolling all public schools.

It may be your country but if you're allowed to pontificate over the ills of foreign societies and what's broken in other nations and even become involved in the politics of overseas governments, then you have to expect some passionate views from foreigners like Piers Morgan (especially given the fact he has a show on CNN, which is a media broadcasting company in case you did not realise, so naturally the slimy snake is going to comment on topical issues. This fact cannot be hard to grasp.)

I think you will find that it is you who is the hypocrite.
You may not think foreigners have a right to criticise (even though, conversely, you and your fellows can do it with impunity) but they have a right to voice their opinions.

Blah blah blah blah blah



This is exactly the point...no one here gives a rats ass about your country or its political system or if you start carving youselves up with scimitars

As a result, your opinions of ours aren't even considered worthy of discourse

...and when you cop that snobby English 'tude and talk down your nose, I for one feel beholden as an American to telling you to shove it up your pompous Limey ass

[British_Pharaoh]

The monarchy has no political or economic power. We're a constitutional monarchy; essentially a kingdom in name only. We're ruled by a democratic administration, your Congress is modelled very much on our Houses of Parliament. Why is this difficult to grasp? Why do you dwell on the fact that we have a long history and traditions?

The money that it costs to keep the monarchy is far outweighed by the revenue that the Queen brings into the economy.

Yes, I agree you shouldn't give a toss about what Piers Morgan has to say. He's not a citizen of the USA (unfortunately we have to claim ownership over the reptile) but I must agree with him when he says that his opinions on the Second Amendment should be respected and protected under the First Amendment. If you're so passionate and reverential over the Bill of Rights then you can't pick and choose which Rights you wish to venerate and protect, nor can you choose when to respect them depending on convenience.

It's not about being self-righteous. You have to understand we're outside observers, and its difficult for us to understand the emotional fervour that the gun debate sparks (on both sides of the coin) when gun law reform is not an issue here, since we have strict laws and very few incidents of gun violence.

What we see is absolutely ridiculous arguments in favour of a proliferation of gun ownership and in some cases, gun laws to become even more liberal. Not to mention the proposals of arming teaching or having guards patrolling all public schools.

It may be your country but if you're allowed to pontificate over the ills of foreign societies and what's broken in other nations and even become involved in the politics of overseas governments, then you have to expect some passionate views from foreigners like Piers Morgan (especially given the fact he has a show on CNN, which is a media broadcasting company in case you did not realise, so naturally the slimy snake is going to comment on topical issues. This fact cannot be hard to grasp.)

I think you will find that it is you who is the hypocrite.
You may not think foreigners have a right to criticise (even though, conversely, you and your fellows can do it with impunity) but they have a right to voice their opinions.

Blah blah blah blah blah



This is exactly the point...no one here gives a rats ass about your country or its political system or if you start carving youselves up with scimitars

As a result, your opinions of ours aren't even considered worthy of discourse

...and when you cop that snobby English 'tude and talk down your nose, I for one feel beholden as an American to telling you to shove it up your pompous Limey ass

I posted that reply to educate those of you who are still ignorant and insular enough to make erroneous assumptions about the state of MY country, you fucking hypocrite. If you don't want me to join the debate on gun crime and offer my opinion as someone who respects and advocates freedom of speech then I won't and you can carry on living in the 18th century with your 230 year old laws.

But don't pour your slur on the United Kingdom, especially when it is so so off the mark.

Happy New Year you rude c*nt

[British_Pharaoh]

Why do Americans see protection of the Second Amendment as synonymous with maintaining their 'freedom' and liberty?

Are you unaware of what transpired in the last 1700's?

Can you not see the direct relation between those events and the idea for the BOR, particularly the 2nd Amendment?

Would you call the colonists reactionary?

Of course I do, but I'm saying that things have change. We're at a point now where globalisation is the new imperialism. The Second Amendment was brought into being so that the newly found nation-state of America could protect itself from any other potential external enemy. With politics and international relations as they are now (and more importantly, the nature of warfare as it is and is looking for the future) the need for arming your population - in the essence of the Second Amendment - is no longer there.

I understand that given a short - in comparable terms - but very rich and colourful history, that it is only natural to become passionately and almost militantly attached to symbols like the flag, documents of liberty and pieces of paper that express the birth of your great nation.

But I think there are other civil liberties worth fighting for/government encroachment on current liberties worth fighting against that are more important than maintaining your easy access to guns.

It just seems a waste of such a powerful and passionate collective voice.
Think of what could be achieved if you put the energy and fervour that this debate inspires, into something much more noble.

[peeker643]

Not for nothing, but I wonder if we'll be getting advice and morality lessons in a few hundred years from reformed radical muslims on our sports message boards.

Interesting dynamics in play all around.

If BP starts questioning how we cook and eat, that'll be the last straw.

[British_Pharaoh]

Not for nothing, but I wonder if we'll be getting advice and morality lessons in a few hundred years from reformed radical muslims on our sports message boards.

Interesting dynamics in play all around.

If BP starts questioning how we cook and eat, that'll be the last straw.

It's clear now that you're a moron and just trying to troll me.

The south of your country is inundated with Asians and Hispanics and you want to talk to me about the UK's immigration problems?

You realise you have nothing you can say to me because you're uneducated and totally unaware of facts, empirical evidence and devoid of common sense it seems, so you have to resort to criticising another person's country. Precisely, the reason that you believe I should not be posting in this thread.

America: A nation of generally decent people, tempered by c*nts like you

[Larvell Blanks]

[FUDU]

BP, is same sex marriage legal in the United Kingdom yet...

[peeker643]

Not for nothing, but I wonder if we'll be getting advice and morality lessons in a few hundred years from reformed radical muslims on our sports message boards.

Interesting dynamics in play all around.

If BP starts questioning how we cook and eat, that'll be the last straw.

It's clear now that you're a moron and just trying to troll me.

The south of your country is inundated with Asians and Hispanics and you want to talk to me about the UK's immigration problems?

You realise you have nothing you can say to me because you're uneducated and totally unaware of facts, empirical evidence and devoid of common sense it seems, so you have to resort to criticising another person's country. Precisely, the reason that you believe I should not be posting in this thread.

America: A nation of generally decent people, tempered by c*nts like you

Oh, I don't care if you post in this thread. I don't care if you light yourself on fire and throw yourself off a building.

I'm not criticizing your country. I'm criticizing one pretentious asshole from your country. Much like you're criticizing some of the assholes in this one.

From what I read on these boards, it would seem every Brit is a pretentious asshole that has answers to everyone else's problems but fails to recognize their own.

You should focus on making your bed before you tell us how to clean up our house.

And if anything I criticized your culinary reputation (not yours specifically, but broad brush and all). I respectfully refrained from going to the stereotypical dental hygiene crack. I though that was thoughtful and showed restraint as well as sound judgment.

In addition to frowning upon the populus being armed, are you all too decent and proper to spell out the word "cunts" when you want to use it as an insult? I admire your civility and decorum. I aspire to that level of character.

Happy Boxing Day!!

[motherscratcher]

Well, that escalated quickly.

[gotribe31]

Well, that escalated quickly.

Yeah, BP really went racist in a hurry there. Just one mans opinion, but he's in flagrant violation of rule #1 here.

[peeker643]

Well, that escalated quickly.

I think I kept a lid on it. I didn't even get nasty.

What's amusing is I wasn't actually trolling BP. Not actively or knowingly. I was actually considering the 2nd amendment was there partly because of a poor relationship with the crown at the time. Couple hundred years later and the countries are fighting and standing side-by-side against shared enemies and, to this day (despite what BP is single handedly doing to ruin it), are the strongest of allies.

Couldn't have seemed possible to the colonial folks.

Makes me wonder what happens down the road with those we have no use for today. Have to believe thousands of years worth of radical muslim beliefs and practices might make it difficult to set aside those differences.

Although the vast majority of those who practice that faith are peaceful people. Not unlike the vast majority of people who own weapons in the US being peaceful people.

I think BP is a bit thin-skinned these days. I simply don't put enough stock into what he says to actively troll him. Lee, on the other hand? Oh yeah... I'd poke that beehive with a stick for kicks and giggles.

[Erie Warrior]

It is an emprirical fact that English food is awful.

[motherscratcher]

I'll start by saying taht I like BP. Always have. And am glad that he posts here. My views on gun control are probably more closely alligned with his than the rest of you. And I also do believe there would be some value in an outsider's opinion on this. Truly.

But the superiority and condescention in his recent posts in this thread I think are what is most off putting. Except maybe to FMB who I believe truly despises BP. That's not all that unusual, though.

And Peek, I did notice your ommision of the dental hygiene card, and was proud of your restraint.

really did seem like BP nuked Peek's entire neighborhood there in response to Peek shooting a pellet gun at him.

[peeker643]

I'll start by saying taht I like BP. Always have. And am glad that he posts here. My views on gun control are probably more closely alligned with his than the rest of you. And I also do believe there would be some value in an outsider's opinion on this. Truly.

But the superiority and condescention in his recent posts in this thread I think are what is most off putting. Except maybe to FMB who I believe truly despises BP. That's not all that unusual, though.

And Peek, I did notice your ommision of the dental hygiene card, and was proud of your restraint.

really did seem like BP nuked Peek's entire neighborhood there in response to Peek shooting a pellet gun at him.

Never had a problem with BP and agree in value of outsider's opinion on Tribe and this. Also valued him participating in the threads. Didn't have an issue with it. Didn't think I made one out of it any more so than my smart ass comments on anything else.

Like I said, I'll chalk it up to a bad day for a long time, valued poster.

[Fire Marshall Bill 2.0]

But the superiority and condescention in his recent posts in this thread I think are what is most off putting. Except maybe to FMB who I believe truly despises BP. That's not all that unusual, though.

Yes...you are correct...for ignorant comments he has made in the past concerning American soldiers and Veterans

I will give him no quarter and treat him as I see fit from my perspective of him

He is the epitome of stereotypical English snobbery and I haven't read one word he's written in response to me because I place no value on his opinion and no, I don't give a rats ass what outsiders think of our laws or how we govern

Maybe someday someone will start a thread about what a jobless wasteland England has become...but I doubt becaaaaaaause....... no one here gives a shit

...and under no circumstances should anyone use the words English and food in the same sentence...thats just wrong...better to go with gruel

[Cerebral_DownTime]

Do I have to kill a guy with a trident?

Mother, go get your sword sword and we will duel in the parking lot of the East Avenue liquor store. Gladiator style.

[British_Pharaoh]

BP, is same sex marriage legal in the United Kingdom yet...

Yes, but not in church

[British_Pharaoh]

Well, that escalated quickly.

Yeah, BP really went racist in a hurry there. Just one mans opinion, but he's in flagrant violation of rule #1 here.

Racist?? How

and at least two others on here have referred to Asian immigrants in Britain as 'ragheads'

[Cerebral_DownTime]

Wait till Al Washif Bakhir hear about that. Maybe he'll gather up his fundy fucktard followers move to a country more accepting of his views. Where gays can't marry and women are stoned for, you know, existing.

I never said "raghead" BTW. I said Dark Age crazy Muslims.

[British_Pharaoh]

If the hostility towards my posts on this thread were due to my use of language rather than in voicing my opinion, then I apologise if the language I used, and the way I used it appeared condescending and offensive.

But, considering how others on here were using language and the manner in which they were posting in reply to me, it seemed that I was being vilified and treated very unfairly being foreign and having an opinion.

And if I am being attacked for that reason then it hardly seems that I am the racist who is assaulting the Bill of Rights and 'freedoms'.

[British_Pharaoh]

I said Dark Age crazy Muslims.

...Oh that's OK then.

[Cerebral_DownTime]

Well I classify fundy Christians and Jews in the same light too.

[British_Pharaoh]

Well I classify fundy Christians and Jews in the same light too.

Better

[FUDU]

BP, is same sex marriage legal in the United Kingdom yet...

Yes, but not in church

So the US and the UK exist in the same century.

That was kind of my point to you. I have no problem with outsiders criticism of our ways, but don't pretend b/c England was our motherland that she has some high ground relative to today's world.

Most foreigners that live here will tell you to your face that this is still the best country in the world to live.

[British_Pharaoh]

My friend, I do not have a great opinion of my nation and I am far from a patriot. I think nationalism is one of the most destructive ideologies and anti-utilitarian. I disapprove of what flags and national symbols represent in the minds of many compatriots and I deplore the effects that national rivalries and nations' desire to assert their prestige and glory have on societies.

I opine as an individual, not as an Englishman.

[Orenthal]

‏@JeremyClarkson

Americans. Was the second amendment not introduced to protect you from the tyranny of the British? Piers Morgan in other words.

‏@JeremyClarkson

Americans. It took us 40 years to get rid of Piers Morgan. Pleasse don't send him back.

[dmiles]

Interesting I was drinking one night in Glasgow with a bunch of co-workers most of them from the local area, and two were Irish. This was circa 2003-2004 I can't recall. Anyway much like BP they uniformly hated any kind of patriotism, and could not understand why we Yanks were at all.

BP this is the internet. All Democrats are whacked out commies despite evidence to contrary. Despite all of the good things done around the world and in this country by Christians... on the internet anyone mentioning the bible is a nutjob fundie that is absolutely no different than a 14th century Wahabbist. All republicans are idiots, racists, etc. It's just the way it is in internet debate. And the British are thought of as being docile little wusses, once again despite evidence to the contrary it's just how things escalate.

As an aside fundie christians who insist on political activism are basically progressives, just moral progressives. The same rubbish as progressive liberals, one wants economic control over your life, one wants moral control over your life, but both groups seems to start sentences with "we should pass a law" or "what can we do to fix....."

Anyway, I digress since I value your opinion...
- what if either progressive group gained too much power? Not good...
- How do you feel about the folks trapped behind the Iron Curtain being unarmed? Or the Chinese? Or Cubans? Does human freedom matter at all?
- Lastly what is it about human history makes you so trusting regarding the benevolence of governments?

Have you seen a modern police force in the states? They often dress like a front-line infantrymen would....for a routine public gathering. Is it impossible for them to go rogue? If we Yanks are so quick to the trigger around the world these days to the point where world opinion on our actions means very little, should we not at least be slightly concerned that maybe someday we citizens will be painted as terrorists? It's not that far-fetched.

1. Protect the family
2. Protect our shit. (Or private property)

[British_Pharaoh]

I find it hard to believe that an armed population is the only way to make your government fear you, and to stop political oppression. It's a worthy argument to want to hold onto your guns I suppose, but I think it's specious reasoning.
Unless there's a military coup (which I suppose is a possibility in America moreso than any other western democracy) I don't see in what instance firearms would be used to protect yourselves from your own leaders. I mean who are you going to use them against? Unless there's a military coup you likely don't have to worry about an army firing on its own citizens. However, I will concede that there has been precedents where the national guard have done just that.

If your answer to certain groups that YOU don't like achieving more power and influence, is to squeeze off a few rounds then that seems very revolutionary Europe to me. It's such a backward way of trying to resolve issues, akin to Tudor England or nineteenth-century Russia where duels were common.

Since the advent of modernity and the decline of absolutist monarchies, with democratic systems replacing them, I think we have seen more to be positive about regarding western governments, than to think that in this day and age that they would actively seek to harm us.

Incidentally, the way in which the ruling class enforce hegemony is much more subtle and underhand (and non-violent) The mass media is a tool used to manipulate and control these days, and also to 'dumb us down'.

[e0y2e3]

The best part is that people act like their pistols and shitty assault rifles are going to matter if their is a military coup.

Chasing the terrorists around Aghanistan (whom hold about a 100 to 1 advantage in terms of killing soldiers over the US citizens) has created a military that is so used to guerilla warefare they would clean out our citizens in about 35 seconds.

Christ if the Brits weren't complete and utter morons that clung to ridiculous military tactics during the revolution they would have kicked our asses back then.

The 2nd amendment is a JOKE. The strongest weapon we have against tyranical gov'ts today is the spread of information, not our fucking glocks.

[mattvan1]

I find it hard to believe that an armed population is the only way to make your government fear you, and to stop political oppression. It's a worthy argument to want to hold onto your guns I suppose, but I think it's specious reasoning.
Unless there's a military coup (which I suppose is a possibility in America moreso than any other western democracy) I don't see in what instance firearms would be used to protect yourselves from your own leaders. I mean who are you going to use them against? Unless there's a military coup you likely don't have to worry about an army firing on its own citizens. However, I will concede that there has been precedents where the national guard have done just that.

If your answer to certain groups that YOU don't like achieving more power and influence, is to squeeze off a few rounds then that seems very revolutionary Europe to me. It's such a backward way of trying to resolve issues, akin to Tudor England or nineteenth-century Russia where duels were common.

Since the advent of modernity and the decline of absolutist monarchies, with democratic systems replacing them, I think we have seen more to be positive about regarding western governments, than to think that in this day and age that they would actively seek to harm us.

Incidentally, the way in which the ruling class enforce hegemony is much more subtle and underhand (and non-violent) The mass media is a tool used to manipulate and control these days, and also to 'dumb us down'.

You make several excellent points and while the discussion appears to be focused on the 2nd Amendment, it is in actuality more closely related to the federal government fucking about with the liberty and freedoms of individuals.

I'm fairly certain our founding fathers would weep knowing how the 2nd Amendment has been corrupted and twisted into a defense for the indefensible, and yet if we begin to allow the federal government to chip away at the Bill of Rights then where is the line ultimately drawn? The 4th, 6th, 8th, and 10th are gradually being eroded under the cover of The Patriot Act and other "national emergencies" and while I can certainly make an argument for elements of these new laws ultimately people need to realize that our government is gradually growing its powers far beyond what was granted, by the people, 200+ years ago.

[e0y2e3]

But.... but.... but.... I need that assault rifle to protect my family Matt!

I'd love to put in the time to try and find a stat comparing home invasions of armed homes versus unarmed homes, because I betchya a higher % in the second category die than the first.

[HoodooMan]

I'm fairly certain our founding fathers would weep knowing how the 2nd Amendment has been corrupted and twisted into a defense for the indefensible, and yet if we begin to allow the federal government to chip away at the Bill of Rights then where is the line ultimately drawn? The 4th, 6th, 8th, and 10th are gradually being eroded under the cover of The Patriot Act and other "national emergencies" and while I can certainly make an argument for elements of these new laws ultimately people need to realize that our government is gradually growing its powers far beyond what was granted, by the people, 200+ years ago.

The real issue there is that we've never rewritten the Constitution in order to restore its relevance.

Of course, what we'd probably end up with would be a BoR that replaces Freedom of Expression as our foremost guaranteed right with something like Freedom from being IPhoneless; so maybe it's best that we stick with what we have after all, and just allow our interpretation of the Constitution to evolve with the times in the hands of 9 Actual Smart People.

[mattvan1]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/dec/21/sacred-text-us-gun-habit

[FUDU]

I'm fairly certain our founding fathers would weep knowing how the 2nd Amendment has been corrupted and twisted into a defense for the indefensible, and yet if we begin to allow the federal government to chip away at the Bill of Rights then where is the line ultimately drawn?

matt can you expound on exactly how the 2nd has been corrupted and twisted, and into a defense of the indefensible?

[e0y2e3]

So if the relevance of the 2nd amendment is to protect the citizens from a corrupt gov't (as dmiles says above) shouldn't we arm our peoples with missles, anti-aircraft batteries, etc? Because that is what it takes to fight a gov't now. If we want to cling to original intent we better start arming up!

[FUDU]

Our rights don't exist relative to our odds of surviving such a battle.

Shall we rewrite every enumerated right based upon the context of the times we live in? (rhetorical, as I'd just assume wait for matt's reply).

[e0y2e3]

There have been multiple references to the 2nd Amendment being vital due to it protecting us from our gov't in this thread.

The fact that said example is 100% untrue at this point is important to accept when discussing this outdated shitty amendmentment.

Right now guns are used for paranoid people to protect themselves and for people to feel like they have a big cock at shooting ranges. They entire militia concept that spawned the 2nd Amendment is dead.

[HoodooMan]

Our rights don't exist relative to our odds of surviving such a battle.

Exactly.

Which is why the 2nd Amendment was only originally intended to guarantee our right to possess our actual arms, to swing them freely to and fro all the livelong day, scratch and bruise who they may!

[HoodooMan]

They entire militia concept that spawned the 2nd Amendment is dead.

Flashmobs are close enough.