The Gun Question

[Spin]

WTF do you mean overall? What do you want, to start blending gun control states and cities stats with those that don't have them in place? Regardless, the homicide rate in this country has steadily declined over the last fifty years and has even hit all time lows. Those changes have corresponded to a increase in gun control along with many other initiatives to limit violent crimes.

So if the number of homicides is dropping at the same rate as homicides by firearms, then there is no correlation between gun control laws and then drop in firearm related homicides.

There is a correlation between the decrease in firearm-related homicides and homicides as a whole.

[e0y2e3]

WTF are you talking about? In the late 80s and early 90s when homicide rates were at all time highs gun control was an afterthought.

The biggest strides have come SINCE we started instituting gun control (and again, since you like to make completely illogical bullshit statements while snipping out the core of my argument) EVEN with the improvement we ARE STILL AT THE TOP OF THE INDUSTRIAL WORLD IN HOMICIDES and we also have SOME OF THE MOST LAX GUN CONTROL.

Gun control isn't the only answer, but in every instance where it has been instituted results have been seen and in places with stronger firearms laws even better results have been seen.

Stop fucking making shit up and arguing points that make zero sense.

[motherscratcher]

Let me ask you this CDT. You say you are OK (if I'm understanding you) with outlawing assault rifles and automatic weapons. Why?

Automatics serve no real function for a civilian. You can't target shoot, hunt, and they're total overkill for any type of self defense. I'm not for totally banning semi-automatic rifles. But i'm not opposed to making it harder to get one. I would expand the FFL requirement to semi-auto assault rifles and any carbine with a caliber higher than a .22.

I can see that. That's ratioanal*. And I'm not on board with eliminating all guns from everyone everywhere (although I might be if such a thing were possible). I'm just not for keeping the status quo.

Clear we should be trying SOMETHING to make this shit better. And making guns...ANY guns MUCH more difficult to obtain is a great way to go as far a I can tell. And if the 99% of people who are sane, responsible gun owners have to jump through a ton of stupid annoying hoops to get a gun...well that's tough shit AFAIC.

*I was going to edit my typo before posting but decided to just leave it as ratioanal.

[Cerebral_DownTime]

Your grammar skill decreases when you have an increase in anger. You're like the Grammar Hulk.

[e0y2e3]

Spin isn't worth more than responding as quickly as I can and without reading anything I wrote. He only warrants a response that functions on the same sixth grade level as his intellect.

[motherscratcher]

e0y - quit banging your head against the wall. Arguing with someone who's answer is arming all of the schoolteachers because, well, Isreal, is someone you probably aren't going to come to an understanding with.

[e0y2e3]

In reality, people like Spin who think arming teachers is the answer and people like FUDU typing out whole fantasies about some hero at the school having a firearm, trying to save the kids and dying (only to be treated like a national hero afterward) stands as the strongest evidence in favor of gun control I could possibly drum up.

Seriously, FUDU wrote an entire fucking fantasy about a person with CC being at the school.

That happend.

[Cerebral_DownTime]

Let me ask you this CDT. You say you are OK (if I'm understanding you) with outlawing assault rifles and automatic weapons. Why?

Automatics serve no real function for a civilian. You can't target shoot, hunt, and they're total overkill for any type of self defense. I'm not for totally banning semi-automatic rifles. But i'm not opposed to making it harder to get one. I would expand the FFL requirement to semi-auto assault rifles and any carbine with a caliber higher than a .22.

I can see that. That's ratioanal*. And I'm not on board with eliminating all guns from everyone everywhere (although I might be if such a thing were possible). I'm just not for keeping the status quo.

Clear we should be trying SOMETHING to make this shit better. And making guns...ANY guns MUCH more difficult to obtain is a great way to go as far a I can tell. And if the 99% of people who are sane, responsible gun owners have to jump through a ton of stupid annoying hoops to get a gun...well that's tough shit AFAIC.

*I was going to edit my typo before posting but decided to just leave it as ratioanal.

My gun collection is pretty much complete. So throw up all the red tape and hoops you want, I won't have to jump through them.

[Cerebral_DownTime]

And FTR I DO NOT endorse arming teachers.

[e0y2e3]

Sure, but if its illegal to have a CC and you get busted walking around with a gun there is a high likelihood you'd lose them all.

You are right, it won't deter a lunatic that has been planning a military style invasion for awhile now, but it brings about higher chances of that person being exposed if you eliminate CC and they are walking around with guns and it makes it harder for new lunatics to build their collections.

I do inherently agree with lead that if someone is as sick as this person at the school was there is a high likelihood they'll pull something off, but making it harder and making more instances where they could be exposed as insane before the incident really can't hurt. And real world you will see an improvement in the daily murder rate.

[motherscratcher]

Sure, but if its illegal to have a CC and you get busted walking around with a gun there is a high likelihood you'd lose them all.

You are right, it won't deter a lunatic that has been planning a military style invasion for awhile now, but it brings about higher chances of that person being exposed if you eliminate CC and they are walking around with guns and it makes it harder for new lunatics to build their collections.

I do inherently agree with lead that if someone is as sick as this person at the school was there is a high likelihood they'll pull something off, but making it harder and making more instances where they could be exposed as insane before the incident really can't hurt. And real world you will see an improvement in the daily murder rate.

Yes, this. Exactly this.

[e0y2e3]

Basically the answer is either clone a bunch of armed FUDUs and send them to every school, movie theater, mall, grocery store, etc in America and let FUDU protect us all (or die a hero!) or try to put as many hurdles in the way of people making themselves into death squads as we can.

[Cerebral_DownTime]

Sure, but if its illegal to have a CC and you get busted walking around with a gun there is a high likelihood you'd lose them all.

If that was the case, I wouldn't be walking around with one. But people who do not care about the law will still be carrying concealed guns. It changes nothing at all.

[e0y2e3]

Sure, but if its illegal to have a CC and you get busted walking around with a gun there is a high likelihood you'd lose them all.

If that was the case, I wouldn't be walking around with one. But people who do not care about the law will still be carrying concealed guns. It changes nothing at all.

That's kind of the point CDT. You wouldn't get busted and you don't need to be busted, but people that don't care about the law and do walk around with guns are the only people that would get caught and thus potentially exposed. No doubt you won't catch everyone who doesn't give a fuck and intends to do harm with a CC, but you will catch some people, which is better than zero.

[dem425]

Hey Eyesore:

If you are referring to my post, I said nothing about arming teachers. Take some of your own advice and read before you post an accusatory response.

However, if this was not directed at me, I apologize, but I have to admit you certainly are the burr under many a saddle........

[e0y2e3]

Hey Eyesore:

If you are referring to my post, I said nothing about arming teachers. Take some of your own advice and read before you post an accusatory response.

However, if this was not directed at me, I apologize, but I have to admit you certainly are the burr under many a saddle........

Not you at all, your post was well thought out and I had no issues. I was answering the village idiot Spin.

[FUDU]

FUDU, it isn't the normal people with CC carry licenses that are the problem. But like e0y says, who in their right mind thinks that untrained teachers packing heat in all of our schools is some sort of answer.

Hell, if you have a kindergarden teacher pulling a glock out of her purse in a classroom full of kids in the midst of chaos and the outcome is just as likely to be worse than better.

I know a few guys with CC permits. I'm not worried about them. But I'd like to see all of the instances when some good citizen has stopped a felony in progress that he just happened to be in the neighborhood of.

Now this gets into the notion of secured schools. B/C as you rightfully acknowledge a guy trained and legally carrying would be in that scenario by chance. My contention isn't necessarily to arm all faculty in a school. It's a bit unrealistic for one thing, and frankly I don't think many of them would go for it, who would want to be a teacher if they HAD to carry a sidearm?

My issue with the anit-gun/anti-CC crowd and the to often made claims that it would make things worse. I disagree and I don't think there is any clear cut evidence of such a thing. For one, b/c CC is not universal for starters.

Ultimately I think people get sucked into panic mode on this issue and are not willing to accept that it is not the guns that are the cause of these problems. Guns are simply a chosen tool used to execute these usually pre-planned tragedies.

[FUDU]

Yeah I think there are fewer people that are for arming teachers than there are people in here trying their hardest to misrepresent what others are posting.

JFC with that shit already.

[Spin]

Spin isn't worth more than responding as quickly as I can and without reading anything I wrote. He only warrants a response that functions on the same sixth grade level as his intellect.

I tried lowering my response to the 6th grade level and you still don't get it. Let me try this.

The overall homicide rate is dropping. The gun-related homicide rate is dropping. What is there to wtf about? It's simple.

Now if the overall homicide rate was the same, or increasing, THEN you could claim that gun control is having an effect and I would listen to you.

Your denial that guns are bought and sold outside licensed firearm dealers makes me wonder why I try to reason with you. Christ you can't be that ignorant.

[e0y2e3]

Yeah, that's it. If more people were killing each other with knives than in 1990 gun control would be working, but since they aren't rising at a fast enough rate to make up for the decrease in gun homicides gun control is a failure.

ARM THE TEACHERZ!!!

[e0y2e3]

Yeah I think there are fewer people that are for arming teachers than there are people in here trying their hardest to misrepresent what others are posting.

JFC with that shit already.

There is Spin.

And you're delusional fantasies about being armed and trying to save those kids (or dying a hero!!!).

Beyond that everyone is good.

[motherscratcher]

FUDU, it isn't the normal people with CC carry licenses that are the problem. But like e0y says, who in their right mind thinks that untrained teachers packing heat in all of our schools is some sort of answer.

Hell, if you have a kindergarden teacher pulling a glock out of her purse in a classroom full of kids in the midst of chaos and the outcome is just as likely to be worse than better.

I know a few guys with CC permits. I'm not worried about them. But I'd like to see all of the instances when some good citizen has stopped a felony in progress that he just happened to be in the neighborhood of.

Now this gets into the notion of secured schools. B/C as you rightfully acknowledge a guy trained and legally carrying would be in that scenario by chance. My contention isn't necessarily to arm all faculty in a school. It's a bit unrealistic for one thing, and frankly I don't think many of them would go for it, who would want to be a teacher if they HAD to carry a sidearm?

My issue with the anit-gun/anti-CC crowd and the to often made claims that it would make things worse. I disagree and I don't think there is any clear cut evidence of such a thing. For one, b/c CC is not universal for starters.

Ultimately I think people get sucked into panic mode on this issue and are not willing to accept that it is not the guns that are the cause of these problems. Guns are simply a chosen tool used to execute these usually pre-planned tragedies.

Sure, I guess there's no clear cut evidence either way, but I can't think of any time when an armed citizen has done any good anywhere. I'm sure it's happened, but it has to be exceedingly more rare than instances where a legal firearm caused a wound or death to an innocent bystander/victim. Usually the result of carelessness or an accident. Again, I'm assuming that.

And I take issue with the statement "guns are simply the tool chosen". I think that minimizes the effect and impact that these weapons have on our society. Nobody is walking into a movie theater or school with a big knife and killing 27 people before lopping their own head off. Sure, guns are the tool, I guess. They are the tool for a reason. Maybe we should try to deprive, to the best of our abilities, the lunatics access to that tool?

[FUDU]

To CDT's point about sales of firearms that are undocumented, that is an area of legit concern and one in which most would be open to new ideas IMO.

But, gun advocates (sane and insane) purchase guns this way all the time, and big brother is one of the reasons why for some of these people. Might not be enough of a reason to continue to allow it as it current is, but it is at least understandable.

I've been looking for a shotgun for about a month, it only took two phone calls to find some people willing to sell theirs.

[Cerebral_DownTime]

Sure, but if its illegal to have a CC and you get busted walking around with a gun there is a high likelihood you'd lose them all.

If that was the case, I wouldn't be walking around with one. But people who do not care about the law will still be carrying concealed guns. It changes nothing at all.

That's kind of the point CDT. You wouldn't get busted and you don't need to be busted, but people that don't care about the law and do walk around with guns are the only people that would get caught and thus potentially exposed. No doubt you won't catch everyone who doesn't give a fuck and intends to do harm with a CC, but you will catch some people, which is better than zero.

Ok. So you ban carrying concealed weapons. I, and all the other people who went through the legal steps to have a CCW permit can no longer carry them. Does that make you feel safer?

[Spin]

Hey Eyesore:

If you are referring to my post, I said nothing about arming teachers. Take some of your own advice and read before you post an accusatory response.

However, if this was not directed at me, I apologize, but I have to admit you certainly are the burr under many a saddle........

Not you at all, your post was well thought out and I had no issues. I was answering the village idiot Spin.

CDT brought it up. I was answering MS's question. I never even said it was a good idea, just that Isreal was doing it. You and MS need to learn to read.

I knew this thread would eventually spiral down the toilet, but I got in anyway.

[FUDU]

Yeah I think there are fewer people that are for arming teachers than there are people in here trying their hardest to misrepresent what others are posting.

JFC with that shit already.

There is Spin.

And you're delusional fantasies about being armed and trying to save those kids (or dying a hero!!!).

Beyond that everyone is good.

Sure, but I never said that.

[Spin]

To CDT's point about sales of firearms that are undocumented, that is an area of legit concern and one in which most would be open to new ideas IMO.

But, gun advocates (sane and insane) purchase guns this way all the time, and big brother is one of the reasons why for some of these people. Might not be enough of a reason to continue to allow it as it current is, but it is at least understandable.

I've been looking for a shotgun for about a month, it only took two phone calls to find some people willing to sell theirs.

Come on FUDU, Eeyore and others like him are saying there is no gun trading outside licensed dealers.

[FUDU]

FUDU, it isn't the normal people with CC carry licenses that are the problem. But like e0y says, who in their right mind thinks that untrained teachers packing heat in all of our schools is some sort of answer.

Hell, if you have a kindergarden teacher pulling a glock out of her purse in a classroom full of kids in the midst of chaos and the outcome is just as likely to be worse than better.

I know a few guys with CC permits. I'm not worried about them. But I'd like to see all of the instances when some good citizen has stopped a felony in progress that he just happened to be in the neighborhood of.

Now this gets into the notion of secured schools. B/C as you rightfully acknowledge a guy trained and legally carrying would be in that scenario by chance. My contention isn't necessarily to arm all faculty in a school. It's a bit unrealistic for one thing, and frankly I don't think many of them would go for it, who would want to be a teacher if they HAD to carry a sidearm?

My issue with the anit-gun/anti-CC crowd and the to often made claims that it would make things worse. I disagree and I don't think there is any clear cut evidence of such a thing. For one, b/c CC is not universal for starters.

Ultimately I think people get sucked into panic mode on this issue and are not willing to accept that it is not the guns that are the cause of these problems. Guns are simply a chosen tool used to execute these usually pre-planned tragedies.

Sure, I guess there's no clear cut evidence either way, but I can't think of any time when an armed citizen has done any good anywhere. I'm sure it's happened, but it has to be exceedingly more rare than instances where a legal firearm caused a wound or death to an innocent bystander/victim. Usually the result of carelessness or an accident. Again, I'm assuming that.

And I take issue with the statement "guns are simply the tool chosen". I think that minimizes the effect and impact that these weapons have on our society. Nobody is walking into a movie theater or school with a big knife and killing 27 people before lopping their own head off. Sure, guns are the tool, I guess. They are the tool for a reason. Maybe we should try to deprive, to the best of our abilities, the lunatics access to that tool?

Yes, exactly, deprive the lunatics, the twisted or the mentally challenged that are not capable of knowing what they are doing. No how do we go about defining the lunatics, with some level of certainty? All while maintaining the rights of others access, others that have the legal right, and the proper state of mind to use them, for any of the various ways to use one.

Guns are a tool, with many uses mo, that's my point. There's guys in this forum (not me) that use them for all sorts of things, many of which are fun in their eyes. I'm not a hunter, but I enjoy just going shooting for target practice.

I also take issue with the quick trigger on the anti CC notions, that always come into question with these types of situations.

FTR I cannot see myself ever owning more than 3 guns, maybe a couple handguns and a shotgun.

[motherscratcher]

To CDT's point about sales of firearms that are undocumented, that is an area of legit concern and one in which most would be open to new ideas IMO.

But, gun advocates (sane and insane) purchase guns this way all the time, and big brother is one of the reasons why for some of these people. Might not be enough of a reason to continue to allow it as it current is, but it is at least understandable.

I've been looking for a shotgun for about a month, it only took two phone calls to find some people willing to sell theirs.

You know what? Fuck those people. Tough shit.

You want to buy a gun? Fine. Buy one from a store. Wait however long it takes to get your background check so we can be as sure as possible you aren't a nutjob. Pick up your gun in 3 weeks. OR 2. Or 4. However long that takes.

You need your gun by this weekend for the McGuillicuddy Family Fourth of July Watermellon Shoot? You should have ordered it 4 weeks ago. Borrow your cousins gun and split the prize Chris Gaines CD Retrospective collection if you win.

[FUDU]

I have no problem with that opinion, and actually am with you on that.

[e0y2e3]

Well Spin, that means we certainly should legalize Heroin since it's dealt outside of legal channels....

And CDT, I get your point, but my point is that if you eliminate any means of carrying concealed firearms in public routine traffic stops, drinking in public tickets, etc are more likely to become pathways into exposure for people running around with guns that don't have quality ideals. It would just be a part of the necessary changes (extreme punishment for CC, sale type limitations, a bunch of the stuff dem mentioned, etc). It's not a perfect solution at all, but it has worked in places such as Cali and any improvement in saving lives is better than none.

Now I doubt any of it goes down because the south, FUDU and the NRA all vote based on their right to hold their bible in one hand and gun in another.

[e0y2e3]

Yeah I think there are fewer people that are for arming teachers than there are people in here trying their hardest to misrepresent what others are posting.

JFC with that shit already.

There is Spin.

And you're delusional fantasies about being armed and trying to save those kids (or dying a hero!!!).

Beyond that everyone is good.

Sure, but I never said that.

In that sick twisted fantasy you wrote out about the CC person at the school your self involvement didn't need to be directly stated, it was clear. That post was, legitimately, one of the more disturbing things I've ever read on the interwebs.

[motherscratcher]

Come on FUDU, Eeyore and others like him are saying there is no gun trading outside licensed dealers.

Um, yeah. that would be one of the problems that need correcting.

[Erie Warrior]

With the exception of law enforcement and military, not a single person's life would change substantially if all hand guns and semi-auto rifles disappeared instantly. You're lying if you say it would.

But it would save thousands of lives.

Quite frankly your "right" to bear arms is less important than everyone's right to not be shot.

Go through the list, collect the guns, write the owners a check. If you choose to keep your hand gun or semi auto rifle (regardless of when or how it was obtained), you are breaking the law and will have to face consequences if caught. Same as any law.

Certainly people could kill each other with shot guns and rifles. But not as easily and not in the same numbers.

[FUDU]

Sure it was eye, I mean you haven't had a chance to say that in what 3 weeks.

Grow up.

I mean FFS I'm not CC. I'd bet the relevant people in this discussion know that.

[e0y2e3]

I've never seen you as outwardly disturbing before FUDU, just a racist buffoon. So no, it hasn't been 3 weeks since I've said anything like that. I seriously question your mental health.

[FUDU]

I've never seen you as outwardly disturbing before FUDU, just a racist buffoon. So no, it hasn't been 3 weeks since I've said anything like that. I seriously question your mental health.

That's on you then, my suggestion is improve your reading comprehension.

[Spin]

Well Spin, that means we certainly should legalize Heroin since it's dealt outside of legal channels....

Well if you can't beat 'em, put words in their mouth.

Hey this isn't the time of the week to be arguing with dumb asses, catch y'all tomorrow.

[motherscratcher]

With the exception of law enforcement and military, not a single person's life would change substantially if all hand guns and semi-auto rifles disappeared instantly. You're lying if you say it would.

But it would save thousands of lives.

Quite frankly your "right" to bear arms is less important than everyone's right to not be shot.

Go through the list, collect the guns, write the owners a check. If you choose to keep your hand gun or semi auto rifle (regardless of when or how it was obtained), you are breaking the law and will have to face consequences if caught. Same as any law.

Certainly people could kill each other with shot guns and rifles. But not as easily and not in the same numbers.

There are times when Im right with you on that. But here's the thing, and I can't get around it; I don't feel like I get to decide that for everyone.

I do appreciate you coming in here and slinging it with an extreme position, though. Carry on.

[FUDU]

Again EW, I respect your opinion (even if it's extreme this time) but I think there are plenty of people that would disagree with you, people that have defended themselves with a gun, from assailants with a gun.

Why don't people get the benefit of the doubt in being able to protect themselves, when it is clearly stated they have the right to, from those that have proven to go to any lengths to arm themselves for the sake of their criminal objective?

[Cerebral_DownTime]

With the exception of law enforcement and military, not a single person's life would change substantially if all hand guns and semi-auto rifles disappeared instantly. You're lying if you say it would.

But it would save thousands of lives.

Quite frankly your "right" to bear arms is less important than everyone's right to not be shot.

Go through the list, collect the guns, write the owners a check. If you choose to keep your hand gun or semi auto rifle (regardless of when or how it was obtained), you are breaking the law and will have to face consequences if caught. Same as any law.

Certainly people could kill each other with shot guns and rifles. But not as easily and not in the same numbers.

What's the weather like in Fantasy Land?

That last line is epic. "Sure some people are still going to get killed, but that's acceptable because there's no more pistols and assault rifles. It's okay if people still die, as long as it's not a lot of them at one time."

[Cerebral_DownTime]

Again EW, I respect your opinion (even if it's extreme this time) but I think there are plenty of people that would disagree with you, people that have defended themselves with a gun, from assailants with a gun.

Why don't people get the benefit of the doubt in being able to protect themselves, when it is clearly stated they have the right to, from those that have proven to go to any lengths to arm themselves for the sake of their criminal objective?

Because we don't DESERVE the benefit of the doubt in their eyes. It makes no difference that we're not criminals or dangerous. We all get punished. "Turn in your guns or you're a criminal". That sounds reasonable.

[Erie Warrior]

I happen to be an excellent drunk driver. Moreover, i have an unusually high constitution for alcohol. I can preform brain surgery at .08. How dare you, or any law tell me I can't have a few road dawgs on long trip. I've been drinking and driving for years, never one accident.

Stay outta my business, fascist.

[Cerebral_DownTime]

Except i'm not trying to ban cars or alcohol......

[motherscratcher]

Again EW, I respect your opinion (even if it's extreme this time) but I think there are plenty of people that would disagree with you, people that have defended themselves with a gun, from assailants with a gun.

Why don't people get the benefit of the doubt in being able to protect themselves, when it is clearly stated they have the right to, from those that have proven to go to any lengths to arm themselves for the sake of their criminal objective?

Because we don't DESERVE the benefit of the doubt in their eyes. It makes no difference that we're not criminals or dangerous. We all get punished. "Turn in your guns or you're a criminal". That sounds reasonable.

Again, I'm not for taking away all of everyone's guns. I'm more thinking about ways to make it much more stringent and difficult to get them, and better tracking once people have them. Not in a cameras and ankle bracelets sort of way, but in a here's our database of who has guns and what they have, sort of way.

Anyway, I think in the mind of people who want total gun elimination, it isn't about benefit of the doubt. It's more a case of; we can't think of any way to make sure that guns don't get into the wrong hands while allowing them to remain in the right hands, so the best option is to try to remove them all. And it is unfortunate that the people who own guns responsibly and safely get punished, but it is for the benefit of society as a whole and the greater good.

Not saying that I think that's the best approach.

[Erie Warrior]

Except i'm not trying to ban cars or alcohol......

But it is certainly a good idea to ban them in conjunction, correct? The imposition on my lifestyle is less important than the safety of others.

[motherscratcher]

Except i'm not trying to ban cars or alcohol......

But it is certainly a good idea to ban them in conjunction, correct? The imposition on my lifestyle is less important than the safety of others.

Wait, did EW just switch sides?

[dem425]

Peeker 2.0:

I know this has disintegrated to much more than you originally intended but Lead Pipe said it simply:

"Can't imagine life if my kid was taken that way."

And we, as a nation of armed or unarmed parents/guardians must feel this way about everything we hold dear. And by whatever means.....

And if anyone else on this discussion cannot relate, then as someone else so eloquently put, "they have no dog in this fight"......

[leadpipe]

Simply put, I'm in the camp that thought a citizen ought to have a right to bear arms and protect himself, his family and his shit.

That being said, there's certainly intriguing arguments that buck this opinion, from some of the numbers eo mentioned and so on.

But, at the end of the day, what's REALLY clouding my thoughts is the 90% rule.

Cause before this even happened I thought there was a particular guy on the clock. That guy is Cowbow Joe Citizen in the supermarket when some nutjob starts opening fire. He puts his conceal and carry to use by returning bullets with little regard for cross-fire and all the other things you might wanna be aware of. Kills a citizen or two....and here come the lawyers..and yadayada.

I'm just not real sure. I, like mother, know people with CC permits. Family included. Them I trust. But the fact I can barely walk 20 feet any direction without bumping into some slapnut makes we wonder a bit.

And damn, I'm glad I'm too old for the bar scene, cause guys packin' and tippin' has got to be at an all time high.

I'm actually on the fence now. And I wasn't two days ago.

[Cerebral_DownTime]

Well if they send me $3,000 for my AR, $500 for my SKS, and $3 per round I own, I'll toss them into a blast furnace myself. I'm keeping my pistols, shotgun, and bolt actions.