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The Gun Question

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The Gun Question

Unread postby peeker643 » Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:27 pm

Even before many offered condolences on social media sites I saw assholes from all sides of the spectrum talking about the 2nd amendment and the need (or arguing the need) for much more restrictive gun laws.

I'll kick it off and I'll leave out the part where I MF the a-holes on either side f the argument who shoved their agenda out in front of the fact that parents in CT will spend the next week burying truly innocent kids. Parents will walk past bedrooms with unmade beds, clothes on the dresser and unwrapped or wrapped Christmas gifts that six and seven year old children will never open and break. They'll not want to return those gifts, not want to make the beds, not want to change a single fucking thing about the room that is now empty of the one thing that in the world that matters the very most.

They'll get out of their cars in the garage, walk past bikes, soccer cleats, cheerleading uniforms and other reminders of their kids. They'll open the door that leads into the house and they will, far more often than they won't, expect to hear their kid's footsteps running down a hallway to greet them.

And they'll live with their loss and those reminders every single day for the rest of their lives. It will never go away.

All because some sick individual made a choice to walk into that room that day and execute a room full of kindergartners.

It's wrong on every level and it's almost unbearable to think about. Truly, it puts me on the verge of tears to even think about and there's a not a responsible person among us who hasn't considered what it would mean if it was there kid who wasn't coming home from school today.

Now, I own guns. More than one, fewer than 10. I've had at least one gun since I was 16 yrs old. And I have never walked into a school and shot up a classroom. I have never opened fire on people at a mall or in a theater.

If you want to make an argument that certain types of guns do not need to be owned by non-law enforcement types then I'm fine with that. Never needed an uzi or an automatic weapon to target shoot or drop a deer that helps feed my family. And I'm not a 2nd amendment crazy. I don't own guns because I'm part of an armed militia and ready to help dispose of domestic or foreign tyranny. I own guns because they are a tool and an instrument with a purpose. Some for hunting and recreation, a couple specifically for self/home defense.

I see no reason why a trained, responsible adult can't or shouldn't have access to that specific tool for those purposes.

I understand others may agree or disagree. I also understand this a hot button issue, especially today, much like abortion or politics or religion. I'm interested in others viewpoints. I have my views and I believe in them and I'm looking for rational discussion as to what views and why. If you want to participate in the discussion let's try and keep it civilized.

One of the bottom lines for me is that no matter what you deprive honest, intelligent, responsible people of, those who are inclined to procure it will do so. Making guns illegal to people who today legally obtain them and lawfully utilize them will not eliminate people from having them or doing harm with them. Outlawing alcohol didn't stop drinking, illegalizing weed and coke and heroin hasn't made a dent in the drug habits of the people who use it.

I'm far more inclined to listen to an idea that would minimize the type of weapons people could have that were accompanied by far harsher penalties if violated. I'm interested in far more stringent requirements to own weapons or potentially limiting the capacity of the number of rounds that can be fired. Even then I think it's a slippery slope. But I'm willing to listen to logic and reason.
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Re: The Gun Question

Unread postby motherscratcher » Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:13 pm

I think a lot of the people that I follow on twitter talking about more restrictive gun laws have a point. It's not that they don't understand the pain of the families close to it, or that they don't give a shit and are trying to politicize the tragedy to further their own political agenda.

The point, as far as I was seeing, is that now IS a good time to talk about gun control. Yesterday or the day before would have been a better time. But when something like this happens, opponents of gun control bring out the old "now is the time for prayer, not politicizing" bullshit. And then what happens? There is never an actual serious discussion.

As for my own viewpoint, I've always been a mild supporter of more gun control. And I realize a lot of that had to do with it not effecting me even a little bit. I don't own a gun. Nobody in my immediate family owns any guns. I have no desire to own a gun. So what do I give a shit, right?

What I struggle with the most is that I have trouble thinking of any friends or family members that I can think of any reason not o own a gun...or 100 guns if they are so inclined. I couldn't possibly care less that CDT or Peeker have guns. I don't care if thy have a whole arsenal.

So, I don't know.

But the truth of it is, if stricter laws would help prevent this, then that's what we need to do. And if responsible, normal, rational people like CDT and Peeker lose some or all of their guns as a result of that...I really don't give a shit. But I'm not at all convinced it would make a difference.

What bothers me the most is the fact that it seems, or it has seemed up until now, that we aren't allowed to even entertain the possibility that stricter laws are worthwhile or make a difference. Maybe that changes now.
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Re: The Gun Question

Unread postby motherscratcher » Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:23 pm

This is what I'm talking about. Look at the last few posts in the shooting thread:

Peeker: "Nothing. But there's no pipe bomb agenda to be politicized."



FUDU:

Was told this line was on Twitter, who said it I have no clue.

It has a point.

If you think a man who killed his mother and a host of children would be constrained by a law you want, you're a fool.



Translation: if you want t talk about gun control, you are an asshole politicizing a tragedy. If you think there's anything anyone can do to ever prevent this, you are a fool, so don't even bother discussing or thinking about it.
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Re: The Gun Question

Unread postby FUDU » Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:27 pm

I'm not a Tackleberry gun nut, but I cannot get behind any kind of gun ban nor extreme restrictions to access.

I'm not a parent either so I do have the luxury of principles.

However I will admit I can never have this conversation with the parent who has lost a child to this kind of scenario or even a common armed robbery. It would be disrespectful for one thing, and just too difficult to do so and walk away as if I was proud to stand for my right of opinion.

So I will say all of this here. I feel it is too important a right to restrict for many reasons. Personal self defense is one, and regardless of how insignificant the impact also for national defense against a government gone wrong. No need to go over all the other stuff like guns don't kill people, people kill people (or outlaw cars b/c of car accidents).

Plus I am a very firm believer that a person legally carrying a firearm could and would help in a situation like a school shooting if they were present and armed. Actually this is the most important point IMO, in regards to CCW and these public mass shootings. I think it is foolish to insist and assume more bad would happen than good. Again I'm not a parent, but I would like to think that I would be very much behind knowing there is someone fighting for my child's life and safety as opposed to just hoping that nothing bad happens as a gunmen is left unopposed while targeting the kids. If my child still was killed and b/c of or in any way the part of the non LEO carrying a firearm I would hope to view his efforts as heroic and that he did his absolute best while risking his life for others.

I do believe only people kill people, and in terms of the worst scenario (and regardless of how improbable or crazy) I belief our right to free speech is useless without our right to protect ourselves.

They will try to restrict our ability to access and use guns, but it will be through subtle means that have very indirect relations to the right and guns themselves. Frankly measures will be taken to make such items financially unattainable. IMO it is inevitable.
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Re: The Gun Question

Unread postby leadpipe » Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:00 am

Can't remember the exact quote from JFK, but it was something along the lines of "It's hard to defend oneself against those willing to lay down their own lives."

I don't think you can defend yourself, nor legislate this type out of our lives.

I'd be willing to listen to arguments that stiffer firearm laws would curb everyday crimes, I don't think I'd be convinced that these would help in any way, an incident like todays.
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Re: The Gun Question

Unread postby peeker643 » Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:08 am

motherscratcher wrote:This is what I'm talking about. Look at the last few posts in the shooting thread:

Peeker: "Nothing. But there's no pipe bomb agenda to be politicized."



FUDU:

Was told this line was on Twitter, who said it I have no clue.

It has a point.

If you think a man who killed his mother and a host of children would be constrained by a law you want, you're a fool.



Translation: if you want t talk about gun control, you are an asshole politicizing a tragedy. If you think there's anything anyone can do to ever prevent this, you are a fool, so don't even bother discussing or thinking about it.


Frustration. Not personal in at way. But there are people on both sides with an agenda which is why I started this thread. That one shouldn't be muddied by it and that post was nothing more than reaction to a multitude of comments I saw skewed by what I believe. I can respect your opinion without agreeing with it.
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Re: The Gun Question

Unread postby motherscratcher » Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:17 am

I know. I just wanted to point out, from the perspective of someone tentatively on the side of more gun control, what a lot of the obstacles to having this discussion are. Because it would be a shame for this thread to devolve into bullshit. Because there are some smart MFers that frequent these boards...and me too. And I'd like to maybe come away from it with a better formed opinion.
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Re: The Gun Question

Unread postby motherscratcher » Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:19 am

leadpipe wrote:Can't remember the exact quote from JFK, but it was something along the lines of "It's hard to defend oneself against those willing to lay down their own lives."

I don't think you can defend yourself, nor legislate this type out of our lives.

I'd be willing to listen to arguments that stiffer firearm laws would curb everyday crimes, I don't think I'd be convinced that these would help in any way, an incident like todays.


I do agree with this. Some people are just batshit crazy, and they are going to do batshit crazy things. And you are never going to be able to prevent ALL of these tragedies. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't try.
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Re: The Gun Question

Unread postby swerb » Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:44 am

I'm a righty. But I am not a gun guy. No desire to own one. Sympathize with the hunters & middle America home defense people ... but Jesus H. More bad than good happens. Seems like there should be a way to preserve the rights of the aforementioned, yet make it a little harder for the bat shit crazy people that get their hands on semi-automatic rifles and guns.

Thought Obama's address to the nation was very good today. Guy may have no idea how to get the economy going, but he is a good man.

IMO, you can't ignore the trend. We've seen a disturbing # of school shootings these last few years. As teh father of a 7 and 4 year old in a town that sounded eerily like the pre-today description of Newtown, if we're not at least having the discussion on how to prevent future occurences like this, we're idiots.
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Re: The Gun Question

Unread postby Spin » Sat Dec 15, 2012 2:22 am

leadpipe wrote:I'd be willing to listen to arguments that stiffer firearm laws would curb everyday crimes, I don't think I'd be convinced that these would help in any way, an incident like todays.


No there's so much of this stuff on the black market, you can buy shit the Army doesn't have. No law is going to stop that.

Like drugs, there's no way to keep them out of the hands that want them.
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Re: The Gun Question

Unread postby StewieG » Sat Dec 15, 2012 5:13 am

I don't really have a dog in this fight, but here's where I'm at right now. Anything that makes it a little more difficult for someone to amass their own personal armory is a good thing. But if people want to get the guns, they're going to get them whether it's legal or not. And if someone wants to hurt a large group of people, they're going to do it with or without the guns. So while I think tighter gun laws are probably a good idea, I'm just not sure it'll make much difference.
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Re: The Gun Question

Unread postby Erie Warrior » Sat Dec 15, 2012 8:10 am

Ban personal possession of all handguns and semi-auto rifles (including 10-22 mods, AR-15's, mini 14s). Do not allow any grandfathering bullshit.

Reimburse the owners and melt them down.

You want to protect your house, get a dog and a security system. And aren't you just protecting your house from other people with guns? There is no reason you can't protect your house with a shotgun or a .30-.30 with the same effectiveness.

The next time a someone goes on a rampage with a bolt action rifle, ban those too. You can talk all day about the "black market", but it's just noise. For 95% of people, if you couldn't walk into a Gander Mountain or a gun show and buy a truck load of guns, you wouldn't get one. End of story.

And this notion that it's "my right to bear arms" is equally ridiculous. It's no more a right than owning a home or a car. It's a material possession. It's not a right, it's a luxury.

You can pry my guns from my cold, dead hand. How about your kid's cold, dead hands?
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Re: The Gun Question

Unread postby General » Sat Dec 15, 2012 8:52 am

I don't have kids but I have teenage nieces and nephews and I can't fathom the pain that the families are enduring. Also I don't own any guns currently. I have been shopping for a home protection weapon but haven't made the buy yet. I think you can put any kind of restriction on whatever type of gun you want but the bottom line is that it is the people who feel they have either nothing left to lose or some "noble" cause to "defend" that are the real danger in any society. And I'm not sure what to do about them.
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Re: The Gun Question

Unread postby FUDU » Sat Dec 15, 2012 9:25 am

Erie Warrior wrote:Ban personal possession of all handguns and semi-auto rifles (including 10-22 mods, AR-15's, mini 14s). Do not allow any grandfathering bullshit.

Reimburse the owners and melt them down.

You want to protect your house, get a dog and a security system. And aren't you just protecting your house from other people with guns? There is no reason you can't protect your house with a shotgun or a .30-.30 with the same effectiveness.

The next time a someone goes on a rampage with a bolt action rifle, ban those too. You can talk all day about the "black market", but it's just noise. For 95% of people, if you couldn't walk into a Gander Mountain or a gun show and buy a truck load of guns, you wouldn't get one. End of story.

And this notion that it's "my right to bear arms" is equally ridiculous. It's no more a right than owning a home or a car. It's a material possession. It's not a right, it's a luxury.

You can pry my guns from my cold, dead hand. How about your kid's cold, dead hands?


While I respect your opinion EW, the Constitution doesn't see it your way.

As to your suggestion about owning a shotgun for home protection, that means people would have access to shotguns, that means the risk of a nut bag taking a shotgun into a school will exist.

Plus, at the risk of sounding insensitive to yesterday's events (which I am not in any way) why the insistence on NOW being the time for the ultimate debate on gun control? Other mass shootings, especially at a school, were just as relevant to the discussion of the issue, they were equally as tragic to those involved (and I'm not directing this at anyone person, just making an observation). If the issue of gun control cannot stand on its own merit while at the same time the rights bestowed upon citizens of this country are recognized then why must it be subsidized by the tragic accidents of a minority of people that are either evil or suffer from mental issues or mental lapses in judgment?

Realizing this tragedy is still fresh and reports are not yet completely accurate, reports say the assault weapon never left the 20 year old's car, so a ban would have accomplished what exactly in regards to yesterday's events? Make it hard to get an assault weapon, I agree completely.

Ultimately I really believe it is the responsibility of adults to recognize were we've failed in not only raising young people and their understanding of a firearm and its uses but also in recognizing when young people have mental issues. Whether those mental issues are severe or not, we need to do a much better job of resolving those issue and if necessary getting a young person proper help, in any way.

But the right of the people must be bigger than the wrong doings of the few who fail to see the evil in their actions and who possess no fear of the repercussions of a weakened system.
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Re: The Gun Question

Unread postby Fire Marshall Bill 2.0 » Sat Dec 15, 2012 10:05 am

Typical internet thread....

Talk about the guns, ignore the elephant if the room...mental health

Throw in the fact this guy enetered a grade school in a ninja suit and no one noticed....

...and the 'assault weapon' was left in the car
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Re: The Gun Question

Unread postby motherscratcher » Sat Dec 15, 2012 10:16 am

Mental health is a huge part of it FMB. Maybe you should start that thread also.

And they did notice him entering the building. He was buzzed in by the principal. And why wouldn't he be? He was the familiar son of an employee.

It's almost a blessing that that poor woman didn't make it. I can't imagine having to somehow try to live wih that mistake.

But your right. There's more that goes into this than one issue. That doesn't mean that guns can't/shouldn't be discussed as its a very large part of it, obviously.
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Re: The Gun Question

Unread postby FUDU » Sat Dec 15, 2012 10:23 am

I swear I read something about mental health in this thread.

Mo, I thought I heard the school was put in lock down after he arrived on campus b/c the word was already out he killed someone at home? Which is a scary thought, but I put little faith in that report as I've not heard it discussed much at all.

As always there is no one size fits all answer to these situations.
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Re: The Gun Question

Unread postby Spin » Sat Dec 15, 2012 10:39 am

Fire Marshall Bill 2.0 wrote:Typical internet thread....

Talk about the guns, ignore the elephant if the room...mental health

Throw in the fact this guy enetered a grade school in a ninja suit and no one noticed....

...and the 'assault weapon' was left in the car


We can go so many ways with this. Mental health. Nobody seeing this wack job and not doing anything about it. Or not able to legally do anything about it.
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Lack of parenting.
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This one so far is just about the uproar on gun control.
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Re: The Gun Question

Unread postby Spin » Sat Dec 15, 2012 10:41 am

Erie Warrior wrote:Ban personal possession of all handguns and semi-auto rifles (including 10-22 mods, AR-15's, mini 14s). Do not allow any grandfathering bullshit.

Reimburse the owners and melt them down.

You want to protect your house, get a dog and a security system. And aren't you just protecting your house from other people with guns? There is no reason you can't protect your house with a shotgun or a .30-.30 with the same effectiveness.

The next time a someone goes on a rampage with a bolt action rifle, ban those too. You can talk all day about the "black market", but it's just noise. For 95% of people, if you couldn't walk into a Gander Mountain or a gun show and buy a truck load of guns, you wouldn't get one. End of story.


The guns used in most of these attacks are already illegal to own. Banning guns does no good.

Gun control won't stop the carnage: http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2012 ... chool.html
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Re: The Gun Question

Unread postby Spin » Sat Dec 15, 2012 10:42 am

FUDU wrote:I swear I read something about mental health in this thread.

Mo, I thought I heard the school was put in lock down after he arrived on campus b/c the word was already out he killed someone at home? Which is a scary thought, but I put little faith in that report as I've not heard it discussed much at all.

As always there is no one size fits all answer to these situations.


SOMEONE buzzed him in. He lived in Hoboken. New Jersey. He had a past at that school.

Who buzzed him in the fuckin door? And why? Too lazy to look at the monitor first, or walk down there?
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Re: The Gun Question

Unread postby Fire Marshall Bill 2.0 » Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:10 pm

motherscratcher wrote:Mental health is a huge part of it FMB. Maybe you should start that thread also.


I'm not smart enuff to carry the thread

I'm just speaking as a parent of a son with a mental illness who has seen and heard much over the past 15 yrs and while I've learned a lot I can't sit here and debate the issue....I can only throw my nickel in once in awhile

I can tell you that I read a story in USA today yrs ago that highlighted the fact that 60% of the federal mental health budget was going to AIDS research......

My wife has been very involved and in fact is the COB of the local menatl health assoc after teaching a Family to Family course for about 13 of those 15 yrs

I had to tell her yrs ago to quit bringing those stories home as its all so depressing and no one is in a hurry to be a part of that till tragedy strikes

I can also tell you that there are a multitude of parents out there scared to death of their children and lock themselves in their rooms at night and that the age of consent for medical treatment avgs about 14

We have been lucky as my son now has a PhD and is teaching mathematics in college but he still stuggles...esp socially
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Re: The Gun Question

Unread postby municipalmutt » Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:36 pm

If the fact that KILLING someone is already illegal and it doesn't seem to be a deterrent, why in the fuck would someone hellbent on killing care that a gun is illegal?

The news media with its circus sensationalism makes these sick animals into celebrities for eternity. If you're a loser and have no other lot in life, isn't being famous/infamous for eternity as a mass murderer an attractive thing?
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Re: The Gun Question

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:49 pm

Just about everyone I follow on Twitter is a liberal, and it usually takes about 35 seconds after a tragedy for them to start hash tagging the same dumb slogans and platitudes. Just like EW, they make absurd demands and express a eagerness to see everyone punished for the actions of an individual.

Let us not forget these same liberals are the ones that denounce other so called "morality laws", drugs, marriage inequality, and abortion as anti personal freedom. But they have no problem demanding other's give up their possessions so they can have a bigger false sense of their own security. They pay no mind to the fact the vast majority of gun owners are law abiding citizens. Punish all.


But the best and sweetest thing of all of their prattling, they have no teeth to back up their demands. They're paper tigers in a real jungle.

No automatics? Fine with me. You have a full auto, you go to jail.

Assault rifles? I'll give mine up, provided you reimburse me twice what the rifle cost and for all the ammunition I own (you don't want that floating around do you?).

Pistols? I'm keeping mine. That's not negotiable.

The private person to person sale of firearms should require paperwork to be filed with the police.

Another thing I've noticed with the anti gun crowd, they NEVER explain how they would enact their much desired gun bans and restrictions. You can ban guns, but what does that do to get rid of all the guns that are already out there? And what about the owners of those guns, would they all be made criminals by the stroke of a pen?

How far are you willing to go to have your fake security? Will you send armed government troops door to door to conduct searches? If so I guess that means the 5th Amendment gets tossed onto the scrap heap with the 2nd.

They have no plan and I see some even calling for a "war on guns", which is so American, declaring war on an inanimate object. Goes perfectly with the war on drugs and the war on poverty.

Banning guns is a simple solution from simple people. It's the easy thing to do. Ban guns tomorrow, gangbangers will still be killing each other in piles, crazy people will still do crazy things, and you've left the law abiding citizen at the mercy of the criminal who has no respect for your law.
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Re: The Gun Question

Unread postby FUDU » Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:02 pm

CDT, do you think that the door to door taking of guns is as virtual an impossibility as anything else? What I'm getting at is what I mentioned up thread in that guns & ammo if to be phased out of society would most likely happen through indirect means, like EPA environmental polices against lead or some similar type of BS legislation. Also through extreme taxation on not just guns or ammo, but anything and any process used to produce them. IOW they would be made attainable for the average person like me or you.

You're more into guns than I am, so I'd like to hear your thoughts on that angle of it.
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Re: The Gun Question

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:05 pm

How do you explain the fact that gun related deaths in Cali are down about 50% since 1989 and the start of the toughest gun laws in the country (not all passed at one time).
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Re: The Gun Question

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:26 pm

FUDU wrote:CDT, do you think that the door to door taking of guns is as virtual an impossibility as anything else? What I'm getting at is what I mentioned up thread in that guns & ammo if to be phased out of society would most likely happen through indirect means, like EPA environmental polices against lead or some similar type of BS legislation. Also through extreme taxation on not just guns or ammo, but anything and any process used to produce them. IOW they would be made attainable for the average person like me or you.

You're more into guns than I am, so I'd like to hear your thoughts on that angle of it.



It would be impossible to achieve. Those agents would go home in boxes. I was just asking how far is the anti gun crowd willing to go. Some seem very militant, which is odd.

You also here the old Chris Rock joke a lot "just make bullets $5,000", which some people took as a literal plan of action. Nevermind the law of supply and demand. Bullets are cheap because there are trillions of them on the planet. There was a stockpile of 7.62 ammo (AK-47) found in the Congo that numbered around 500,000 rounds.
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Re: The Gun Question

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:32 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:How do you explain the fact that gun related deaths in Cali are down about 50% since 1989 and the start of the toughest gun laws in the country (not all passed at one time).


Only 50% over 20 years? With the guns laws they have out there you would've expected no less than a 80% drop.
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Re: The Gun Question

Unread postby FUDU » Sat Dec 15, 2012 2:18 pm

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:
e0y2e3 wrote:How do you explain the fact that gun related deaths in Cali are down about 50% since 1989 and the start of the toughest gun laws in the country (not all passed at one time).


Only 50% over 20 years? With the guns laws they have out there you would've expected no less than a 80% drop.


I was thinking of the word anomaly.

There's overwhelming data that proves just the opposite, even globally.
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Re: The Gun Question

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Sat Dec 15, 2012 2:28 pm

Global data compared to US data is comparing apples to oranges and Cali would be a large country in its own right.

What you are thinking is "I make shit up because I can and I cry about the constitution being why we deserve our machine guns and then try to compare the US gun situation to other countries when the facts disagree!!!"

Rednecks be Rednecks.

The state with the toughest gun control in the US is looking at a 56% drop per 100K residents in murders. That isn't an anomaly. BTW: violent crimes in other major cities like NYC have also dropped (a lot) as gun control has increased.
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Re: The Gun Question

Unread postby FUDU » Sat Dec 15, 2012 2:33 pm

Making shit up?

The Constitution is pretty clear on this issue. The highest court in the land has backed it up.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/06/26/supreme-court-upholds-rig_n_109365.html

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/06/28/AR2010062802134.html
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Re: The Gun Question

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Sat Dec 15, 2012 2:37 pm

No, you are making shit up with your "overwhelming data against gun control working" bullshit.

You're like one of those NRA fucks that quotes Mexico gun control failures and ignores the Cartel running the country. The only people that ignore the success of gun control are rednecks and fucks with NRA tied agendas.

And the Constitution needs to be evolved, no arguments there. That's the point of creating an amenable document. However citing an SC decision that allowed all existing gun control laws to stay in place without placing any limitations on future GC laws doesn't really help your cause either.
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Re: The Gun Question

Unread postby FUDU » Sat Dec 15, 2012 2:47 pm

My cause, as is an uncountable numbers of people, is to allow the people the right to bear arms. Restrictions on automatic firearms is at much higher consensus, regardless of political leanings. I don't see a big problem with that discussion and creating sensible legislation regarding such.

Banning handguns, significant restrictions to handguns, just plain ignorant and borderline foolish.
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Re: The Gun Question

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Sat Dec 15, 2012 2:48 pm

I'm not opposed to increasing gun restrictions, but trying to get the gun control folks to agree on what those are, and how they should be implemented, is unlikely.

It's okay to have a national talk about guns. We probably should anyway.
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Re: The Gun Question

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Sat Dec 15, 2012 2:49 pm

States and cities with concealed carry bans have almost universally shown declines in murder rate.

That's a fact you want to ignore, but it is a fact nonetheless. Just because you have delusions of some society where two teachers were strapped and dropped this guy yesterday before anyone died doesn't mean your delusional redneck reality is.... well.... real or even plausible.

You've clearly watched Tombstone about 500x too many.
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Re: The Gun Question

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Sat Dec 15, 2012 3:03 pm

e0y2e3 wrote: You're like one of those NRA fucks that quotes Mexico gun control failures and ignores the Cartel running the country. The only people that ignore the success of gun control are rednecks and fucks with NRA tied agendas.



This is one of my biggest gripes with the NRA lovers. When it comes to violence in Northern Mexico, 80% of the guns used come from legal purchases in the US (3,000 of which came courtesy of the US Gov's Fast & Furious). The problem is most of these come via "Strawman" purchases and easy nature of selling a high powered gun off to someone you met on the internet with no verification of who that person is. Private gun sales must be more heavily regulated. I know, gun owners, it sucks and it's a hassle, but the police should know who is selling what and to who.
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Re: The Gun Question

Unread postby FUDU » Sat Dec 15, 2012 3:04 pm

Go ahead with your predetermined notions and labels e0y2e3, all based on a username, it was expected.

You're so far from the truth it isn't even funny.

Nobody has ever stated an individual with a CC can't be dangerous, but I think it's plainly obvious that the nut jobs in our society far out number the former when it comes to gun related danger.
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Re: The Gun Question

Unread postby motherscratcher » Sat Dec 15, 2012 3:42 pm

FUDU, it isn't the normal people with CC carry licenses that are the problem. But like e0y says, who in their right mind thinks that untrained teachers packing heat in all of our schools is some sort of answer.

Hell, if you have a kindergarden teacher pulling a glock out of her purse in a classroom full of kids in the midst of chaos and the outcome is just as likely to be worse than better.

I know a few guys with CC permits. I'm not worried about them. But I'd like to see all of the instances when some good citizen has stopped a felony in progress that he just happened to be in the neighborhood of.
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Re: The Gun Question

Unread postby motherscratcher » Sat Dec 15, 2012 3:49 pm

This thread got to long to go back and address individual posts. But one common sentiment is one of the ones you hear all of the time after something like this.

"You aren't going to stop a crazy person hell bent on this from accomplishing this."

I know. It sure as shit sounds true. It's undoubtedly true in a lot of cases. But, does that mean we need to make it easy for them?

This dude apparently used his mother's guns to do this. If his mother didn't' have guns would this have happened? Possibly. We'll never know for sure.

I'm not sure it's accurate, but I read yesterday that the whacko in Aurora used guns he bought at Gander mountain legally. If it was illegal for him to buy those would he have been able to get guns somewhere else and do the same thing. Probably.

But what if it wasn't so damn easy. What if they had to go on the black market to get guns and ended up trying to buy them from the trunk of an undercover cop?

What is out of the next 10 assholes that are planning to do this, 5 of them were caught simply because it just wasn't as fucking easy to get these weapons than it is now?

Wouldn't that be worth it?
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Re: The Gun Question

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Sat Dec 15, 2012 3:56 pm

Yeah that's all nice and lovey-dovey, but what about the guns that already out there and owned legally? Why is this never addressed?
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Re: The Gun Question

Unread postby LakeErieWarriors » Sat Dec 15, 2012 4:06 pm

Yesterday's tragedy produced louder screams for gun control than ever before, possibly. Not to be insensitive to yesterday, but think about it, 10's of thousands of people are killed each year via homicide by firearms, and 100's (max) are killed each year via tragedies like yesterday, and murderer's, statistacally speaking, are much less likely to have mental illnesses compared to their mass-murderer counterparts. This issue has been swept under the rug for way too long, and yesterday a classroom full of kindergartners were killed. Can it get worse than that? Kindergartners? No, it really can't, I don't think.

Previous measures on gun control have been very weak and have produced weak results, nationally. It's an issue for politicians that's as dangerous as/more dangerous than birth control, gay marraige, etc., to take a position on. Our President has four more years to A)Be recognized in history as the first Black President or B)Be recognized in history as a President that significantly improved society for the future, and who also happened to be the first Black President.

How often do Concealed Carry people prevent a tragedy like yesterday's, or even everyday murder? I completely understand the right to own a rifle for hunting, and a handgun for personal/home protection. The fact is that there are too many guns out there and it's just too easy for the wrong people to get their hands on them. Can strict/no bullshit gun control policies/gun production regulation curb this?

Fuck if I know, it's never been attempted.
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Re: The Gun Question

Unread postby Spin » Sat Dec 15, 2012 4:10 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:Global data compared to US data is comparing apples to oranges and Cali would be a large country in its own right.

What you are thinking is "I make shit up because I can and I cry about the constitution being why we deserve our machine guns and then try to compare the US gun situation to other countries when the facts disagree!!!"

Rednecks be Rednecks.

The state with the toughest gun control in the US is looking at a 56% drop per 100K residents in murders. That isn't an anomaly. BTW: violent crimes in other major cities like NYC have also dropped (a lot) as gun control has increased.


What is the murder rate overall compared to pre-gun control?

Are the peoplee who want someone gone using other methods now?
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Re: The Gun Question

Unread postby Spin » Sat Dec 15, 2012 4:13 pm

motherscratcher wrote:FUDU, it isn't the normal people with CC carry licenses that are the problem. But like e0y says, who in their right mind thinks that untrained teachers packing heat in all of our schools is some sort of answer.


Isreal.
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Re: The Gun Question

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Sat Dec 15, 2012 4:34 pm

WTF do you mean overall? What do you want, to start blending gun control states and cities stats with those that don't have them in place? Regardless, the homicide rate in this country has steadily declined over the last fifty years and has even hit all time lows. Those changes have corresponded to a increase in gun control along with many other initiatives to limit violent crimes.

In no way is gun control the lone reason many of our cities are far safer than they were 20 years ago (DC, NYC, Cali, etc), but they are a core part of a long list of improvements that have been put in place by the local gov'ts and they have inarguably worked.

Now you want to bring up Israel as if living in an active war zone is relevant to our everyday lives.
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Re: The Gun Question

Unread postby motherscratcher » Sat Dec 15, 2012 4:35 pm

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:Yeah that's all nice and lovey-dovey, but what about the guns that already out there and owned legally? Why is this never addressed?


Lovey Dovey?

I don't know CDT. I don't know what to do about that.
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Re: The Gun Question

Unread postby motherscratcher » Sat Dec 15, 2012 4:39 pm

Let me ask you this CDT. You say you are OK (if I'm understanding you) with outlawing assault rifles and automatic weapons. Why?
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Re: The Gun Question

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Sat Dec 15, 2012 4:42 pm

BTW: our wonderful right to bear arms has yielded a country that, even with the huge improvements made over the last 50+ years in homicide rates, still is close to lead in homicide rate (per capita) in the industrialized world.

So man, those CC licenses really are doing a lot!
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Re: The Gun Question

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Sat Dec 15, 2012 5:23 pm

motherscratcher wrote:Let me ask you this CDT. You say you are OK (if I'm understanding you) with outlawing assault rifles and automatic weapons. Why?


Automatics serve no real function for a civilian. You can't target shoot, hunt, and they're total overkill for any type of self defense. I'm not for totally banning semi-automatic rifles. But i'm not opposed to making it harder to get one. I would expand the FFL requirement to semi-auto assault rifles and any carbine with a caliber higher than a .22.
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Re: The Gun Question

Unread postby Spin » Sat Dec 15, 2012 5:36 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:Now you want to bring up Israel as if living in an active war zone is relevant to our everyday lives.


So a mass people killed by a psycho is somehow different from those killed by a psycho terrorist? Bullshit. There have been school shootings in the US since before there was a US (1764). 65 people have been killed in school shootings since 2009.

That's enough for me.
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Re: The Gun Question

Unread postby dem425 » Sat Dec 15, 2012 5:40 pm

Guns are not the ultimate answer. They are merely an option. People should have the right to own guns, but for God's sake, not everyone should.

However, should you choose not to own a gun, that is also your right.

I believe the world is inheritently evil. When we rise to do unconditional acts of charity, goodwill, generosity and the like, these are exceptions. Therefore, we have an obligation to protect those we love (with or without firearms) from the abundant evil in the world.

I have always believed in a mandatory 3-day waiting peiod to buy guns from authorized dealers. Anyone needing a firearm for exigent reasons would need police authorization and documentation. Double the cost of all guns to include not only comprehensive background checks but voice-stress analyzers for mental health security. There are gun sales made by legitimate folk on a private basis. In Ohio, they must adhere to the law which states if you sell a gun to a private individual, YOU are responsible for knowing their age and their character.

Someone wrote on another thread that it would take a 30% increase in school budgets to accomodate armed security and metal detectors in every school. Some people want answers, but are they willing to pay for it.

Everyone should read the book, "The Gift of Fear", by Gavin DeBecker. He is a bleeding liberal BUT he presents, problems AND solutions to dealing with fear in our daily lives and the lives of our loved ones. Not once does he advocate gun ownership.

Would it have made any difference in ANY of these atrocious school shootings if the suspects knew for sure that inside the school were "trained and armed individuals committed to protecting the lives of those inside"?..........I don't know

I don't own a gun to kill.......I own it to protect my self and my family from evil (besides I'm too old to fight)..
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Re: The Gun Question

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Sat Dec 15, 2012 5:41 pm

So you are going to pretend that arming our teachers is a viable solution because a lot of people in Israel are armed due to the fact that they are essentially at war always?

(and I would really love to see these many Israel instances where CC firearm stopped mass death, especially considering the general nature of the attacks there being bomb related; in reality you are just exaggerating the hell out of this example as well)

Yeah, good logic. ARM THE TEACHERS, MORE GUNS, FUCK THE FACT THAT THERE IS NO EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE OF CC FIREARMS DETERRING VIOLANT CRIMES!!!!
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