Reds and Indians deep in Choo trade talks

[andrew6586]

@TonyIPI

Indians save on Choo ($7.9M), Sipp ($1M). Spend $4.5M cash, Stubbs ($2.9M) & Albers ($1.7M). Trade has basically zero sum effect on payroll.

[Dnthateonthepronk]

It does say Stubbs is Arb eligible, wonder what the number for him is going to be.

MLBTR has him estimated at $2.9m, compared to $7.9m for Choo.

So, that's $5m more to throw at Swisher?

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2012/10/p ... -2013.html

Holy shit, we are sending the Reds money

[Dnthateonthepronk]

So glad to have Jack Bauer. He will strike guys out by 10 and kill some terrorists by 11.

His daughter's pretty hot, too.

[Dnthateonthepronk]

Done Deal

Indians get: Trevor Bauer, Drew Stubbs, Matt Albers, Bryan Shaw
D Backs get: Didi Gregorius, Tony Sipp, Lars Anderson
Reds get: Shin Soo Choo, Jason Donald.

If Bauer's arm doesn't fall off (a very distinct possibility assuming he's now an Indian), this is a steal for Cleveland. A front of the rotation stud plus two interesting relievers and (if nothing else) a warm outfield body for one year of Choo (who's gone anyway) and crap (Anderson and Sipp). And Donald, too. He's not crap, but he's close.

Shapiro and Antonetti, I won't admit this much, but on this deal at least, I you.

I like Shaw for Sipp. He has had a good start to his career. Really helped me down the stretch in 2011 on my fantasy dynasty team. He was a great SP/RP flex option.

[Prosecutor]

What's not to like? One year of Choo for a young starter with FOR potential, an outfielder with speed and range, and a couple of relievers. The acquisition of Aviles left Donald without a role, not that a guy who hit .202 at age 27 had a role anyway. We don't need Sipp with the acquisition of Albers, and there's also Hagadone pitching well in winter ball. And even if Lars Anderson had a chance of making the team, it's gone now with the signing of Reynolds.

So it looks like we got a lot for one year of Choo and three guys we have absolutely no use for.

Sure, Bauer is a risk, but that's what teams like the Indians have to do to get quality starting pitching. At least this time they didn't give up Drew Pomeranz.

I can't believe Arizona got fair value. Either they see something in Gregorius that nobody else does, or they know something about Bauer that we don't. Like maybe the Phillies knew something about Jason Knapp that we didn't.

It looks like everybody got what they wanted. I don't know about the Reds, though, as they'll only have Choo for one year. The other two teams each got young talent with upside at positions of dire need. The Reds got a one-year stopgap in Choo and a fringe major leaguer in Donald.

[CAVSTRIBEBROWNSin07!]

This is the best first impression I've had of an Indians move in a long time. Quite a haul for 1 year of Choo, a few terrible players, and $3.5 million (Larry? Is that you?!). Bauer is a potential ace not far from being major league ready. Stubbs is the right handed hitter the Indians have sorely needed, and I can see him having a big bounceback in a new setting. PLUS 2 guys for the pen! Nicely done Shaponetti and Dolan.

[ChoccoIndians]

I really like this trade. Sad to see Choo go, but the writing was on the wall, he wasn't coming back in 2014.

Get some good potential for him and I think we are showing for the first time in a few years some actual well laid plans to be contenders again.

[Kingpin74]

Credit where credit is due, seems like a solid return for a guy bolting in a year. But now can we please stop spending short term money on the Reynoldses and Swishers of the world? Put that extra cash into a long term offer to Kipnis or something.

[British_Pharaoh]

Brilliant return! Bauer is going to be a stud and isn't 22 until next month.
Bryan Shaw ain't exactly junk either. A young reliever who has had 2 good first seasons in the Majors (walks are a bit high though) and Albers had a good season in 2012.

Well done Antonetti!
Now work some magic with A-Cab

[Adverb Harry]

Not trying to sound too greedy in light of such a great trade, but I hope this doesn't make it less likely that Cabrera is dealt, too. He's still by far our best trading chip, and if we were able to essentially land Bauer for Choo (when it was widely assumed that it would take Cabrera to get Bauer instead), then we've got a chance yet to really add maybe two more impact pieces. Great move, but they still need to do some work.

[Dellucci TailGator]

So, Stubbs clearly plays center. He's the best in baseball there. Brantley in left. If they don't land Swisher, who is playing right field? Or does this mean they're pretty convinced they're going to land Swisher?

[dazindiansfanuk]

So, Stubbs clearly plays center. He's the best in baseball there. Brantley in left. If they don't land Swisher, who is playing right field? Or does this mean they're pretty convinced they're going to land Swisher?

I think it means they're gonna go with the full court press to get Swisher or one of the fall back options, like a Cody Ross type guy.

[pup]

Ummmm.



Since my keyboard won't allow to type positive things about Shaponetti, emoticons will have the carry the torch for my opinion.

[bookelly]

The addition of the BP arms I hope means C. Perez is also on the block. Trading Droobs and Perez could land us a nice haul to pair along with the "Lindor Wave" plus Chiz, Kip, Brant and Santana.

They still need a 1B (for next year), 2 more SP studs and 2 corner guys. Stubbs is your 4th OF, nothing more.

So we are at least 5 major pieces away from contending. But we have two big chips to trade.

---

And I'm all for the one year deals as long as they are reasonable, but I'm in the re-sign Justin, Kip, Pestano camp.

[WiscTribeFan]

I can't believe Arizona got fair value. Either they see something in Gregorius that nobody else does, or they know something about Bauer that we don't. Like maybe the Phillies knew something about Jason Knapp that we didn't.

I read a quote that AZ's GM likens Gregorius to a young Derek Jeter. I think he believes that he snowed us all by getting this kid. Time will tell.

Dealing Sipp and cutting Raffy Perez loose has made our once strong lefty bullpen situation much less so. I'm assuming that the organization believes that Hagadone is ready to take one of those slots, as long as he stops punching walls.

What other southpaws do we have for the pen this year? Barnes? Huff?

Seems as if many folks think Cleveland made out well in this deal, although they do mention that Bauer's personality collided with folks in Arizona.

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/win-now-ed ... 18501.html

...And so Antonetti conceived a deal around Bauer, the former UCLA star who stormed through the minor leagues, arrived in Arizona to great fanfare and found himself alienated by teammates and management because of what some would call quirkiness and others stubbornness. Certainly Bauer is unique, from his mega-long toss to his crow-hop warm-up pitches. He is also a pitching savant, eager to learn everything about the game's mechanics and perfect his craft while doing so. Bauer pitched hurt last year, was mediocre in the big leagues, beefed with Montero and soon landed in the Diamondbacks' doghouse, which, admittedly, has included Upton, no slouch himself.

[Dnthateonthepronk]

Wow. There are now 12 straight posts by 8?(too lazy to go back and count) different posters with positive reaction to this front office...........and even one by Pup.


The Apocalypse is coming.

[Madre Hill, Superstar]

Wow. There are now 12 straight posts by 8?(too lazy to go back and count) different posters with positive reaction to this front office...........and even one by Pup.


The Apocalypse is coming.

I think our front office is learning. Maybe.

[googleeph2]

They still need a 1B (for next year), 2 more SP studs and 2 corner guys. Stubbs is your 4th OF, nothing more.

So we are at least 5 major pieces away from contending. But we have two big chips to trade.

Boo, if they truly can get 2 more SP studs, the rest would just be gravy. I'd be fine with piecemealing journeymen in the lineup as needed, to an extent.

[googleeph2]

I read a quote that AZ's GM likens Gregorius to a young Derek Jeter. I think he believes that he snowed us all by getting this kid. Time will tell.

Is it an ‘I’m the smartest person in the room’ thing? Because giving up a pitcher w/6yrs of control who everyone agrees is a FOR guy… he’s the one who all eyes will turn to once the games begin.

[skatingtripods]

Regarding Bauer's mechanics and warmup, Kyle Boddy of Driveline Baseball wrote this for The Hardball Times: http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/blog_ ... eft-alone/

Boddy owns Driveline Mechanics Research in Seattle, WA and really knows his shit.

Best part in the entire article for me:

His deceleration pattern is extremely efficient: He rotates his throwing shoulder forward into the target significantly farther than most pitchers. This pattern allows force to be applied to the baseball in increasingly straighter lines, which is naturally more efficient and less injurious on the elbow and shoulder.

[volunteerbrownie]

I guess I break the streak of positive posters. Maybe it's the Clevelander in me, but I just get visions of Jason Knapp breaking down with significant arm injuries when I think about Bauer. As for Stubbs, I get voices in my head that are repeatedly saying "a SWING and a miss". I'm just not buying it right now.

[bac5665]

All I'll say is that I really hope Bauer pans out. After Kipnis, Santana and LaPorta all failing to be playas, I'm losing my ability to be excited about deals like this.

On paper, looks great. Now we just need it to pan out.

[WiscTribeFan]

The Reds continue to stockpile ex-Indians by signing Jack Hannahan today.

[pup]

Regarding Bauer's mechanics and warmup, Kyle Boddy of Driveline Baseball wrote this for The Hardball Times: http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/blog_ ... eft-alone/

Boddy owns Driveline Mechanics Research in Seattle, WA and really knows his shit.

Best part in the entire article for me:

His deceleration pattern is extremely efficient: He rotates his throwing shoulder forward into the target significantly farther than most pitchers. This pattern allows force to be applied to the baseball in increasingly straighter lines, which is naturally more efficient and less injurious on the elbow and shoulder.

Holy shit! Someone who "gets it".

Especially the Strasburg part. Dude is the picture child for arm injuries. Not really sure what is so difficult about pitching mechanics, but these guys sure like to alter them. The proper mechanics have been around for years, but everyone wants to be smarter than the previous guy, so they tinker. Deceleration is such a simple concept, yet you still have tons of guys "stopping" instead of decelerating. I always thought Cliff Lee has the best deceleration in the game.

[onlyindreams]

All I'll say is that I really hope Bauer pans out. After Kipnis, Santana and LaPorta all failing to be playas, I'm losing my ability to be excited about deals like this.

On paper, looks great. Now we just need it to pan out.

Why are you lumping Kipnis and Santana in with LaPorta? The former two are pretty solid players. They have flaws but they're probably going to get better.

[Erie Warrior]

Stubbs is the right handed hitter the Indians have sorely needed

He struggles to hit his weight. He's a stiff at the dish.

This was Choo for Bauer, which is fine.

[Sea Foam Green]

He's got a pretty severe split. Hits LHP decently well. Struggles Horrendously against Righties though.

Rumored to be dating Samantha Steele of ESPN too.

So there's that.

[bac5665]

All I'll say is that I really hope Bauer pans out. After Kipnis, Santana and LaPorta all failing to be playas, I'm losing my ability to be excited about deals like this.

On paper, looks great. Now we just need it to pan out.

Why are you lumping Kipnis and Santana in with LaPorta? The former two are pretty solid players. They have flaws but they're probably going to get better.

Because Kipnis and Santana, like LaPorta, were supposed to be elite. Not just solid. None of them has lived up to expectations. LaPorta, is, obviously, the biggest disappointment, but his horrific failure doesn't erase Kipnis and Santana's smaller failure.

[Larvell Blanks]

He's got a pretty severe split. Hits LHP decently well. Struggles Horrendously against Righties though.

Rumored to be dating Samantha Steele of ESPN too.

So there's that.

Didn't she just become engaged to Christian Ponder of the Vikings? Or does she have a different beau for each sport?

[jerryroche]

Besides shaking up last season's meh lineup, Shaponetti gets three stars for simply doing something. It shows even peripheral fans that at least the effort is being made to improve the team. That, quite frankly, hasn't been evident at any time since the trade for Ubaldo. It seems like yesterday, but that was a whole year-and-a-half ago.

[TouchEmAllTime]

I guess I break the streak of positive posters. Maybe it's the Clevelander in me, but I just get visions of Jason Knapp breaking down with significant arm injuries when I think about Bauer. As for Stubbs, I get voices in my head that are repeatedly saying "a SWING and a miss". I'm just not buying it right now.

But the thing is we only lost Choo, who has just become a semi-productive major leaguer past his prime, who won't be worth his new salary, so it's a no risk situation with a lot of upside. I still hate just about everything about this team, but this wasn't a bad move.

[Sea Foam Green]

He's got a pretty severe split. Hits LHP decently well. Struggles Horrendously against Righties though.

Rumored to be dating Samantha Steele of ESPN too.

So there's that.

Didn't she just become engaged to Christian Ponder of the Vikings? Or does she have a different beau for each sport?

Honestly, had no idea. I live down in Cincy and heard it on the radio a while back.

However, I checked Wikipedia, and you are correct, so disregard. Serves me right for listening to anything those loudmouths have to say.

[neoleo]

He's got a pretty severe split. Hits LHP decently well. Struggles Horrendously against Righties though.

Rumored to be dating Samantha Steele of ESPN too.

So there's that.

Didn't she just become engaged to Christian Ponder of the Vikings? Or does she have a different beau for each sport?

Honestly, had no idea. I live down in Cincy and heard it on the radio a while back.

However, I checked Wikipedia, and you are correct, so disregard. Serves me right for listening to anything those loudmouths have to say.

I don't even know why I know this, but I'm pretty sure Ponder and Steele just started dating recently (like after the NFL season started). So even though they're engaged now, it's very possible she was with Stubbs during the baseball season.

[e0y2e3]

Way tooo many horny dudes keeping tabs on whose dating Samantha Steele (who is this?) in this thread.

[pup]

[skatingtripods]

Stubbs has a fair amount of value. He's three seasons removed from being four wins above replacement player and was 2.9 WAR in 2011. There's no doubt that he has his shortcomings as a player, low average and high strikeouts, but he has a very nice blend of speed and defense that we haven't had in quite a while. He's got moderate power and should hit 15-20 HR if he gets a full season worth of at bats. His .821 OPS against LHP is pretty nice to have and I wonder if the Indians are looking at him as a platoon player with a free agent on the market who hits RHP.

Ryan Sweeney fits the mold. A pretty decent defensive OF with a .293/.347/.402/.749 split against RHP (a pathetic .225/.298/.281/.579 v. LHP). Scott Podsednik could be another one with a .282/.342/.389/.731 split v. RHP.

I know we hate platoons around here, but if we can utilize speed, defense, occasional pop, and piecemeal a 1.5-2 win OFer with Stubbs and another guy, that's not a bad thing.

[CAVSTRIBEBROWNSin07!]

I read a quote that AZ's GM likens Gregorius to a young Derek Jeter. I think he believes that he snowed us all by getting this kid. Time will tell.

While that may be true and he may be proven correct in the long run, you need to have a better idea of market value than that.

[CAVSTRIBEBROWNSin07!]

Holy crap that's Bauer? This trade gets better by the minute.

[Erie Warrior]

It moved.

[e0y2e3]

Unnecessarily fake tits.

[YouCanPutItOnTheBoardYES!]

All I'll say is that I really hope Bauer pans out. After Kipnis, Santana and LaPorta all failing to be playas, I'm losing my ability to be excited about deals like this.

On paper, looks great. Now we just need it to pan out.

Why are you lumping Kipnis and Santana in with LaPorta? The former two are pretty solid players. They have flaws but they're probably going to get better.

Because Kipnis and Santana, like LaPorta, were supposed to be elite. Not just solid. None of them has lived up to expectations. LaPorta, is, obviously, the biggest disappointment, but his horrific failure doesn't erase Kipnis and Santana's smaller failure.

After one full season in the bigs we can deem Kipnis a failure.

Santana is no scrub either. But yes, he is a failure after two seasons.

[volunteerbrownie]

FWIW, just watched Mitch Williams on the MLB Network wear out Bauer for Bauer's unwillingness to accept coaching and his poor mechanics.

Now, Mitch was a little stubborn in his day as well, but this trade isn't as much of a homerun as many are making it out to be. IF Bauer is willing to make changes for the better, and that's a BIG IF the more and more I hear about him, he could be a gamechanger. But, there appears to be legitimate questions about make-up and coachability

[Adverb Harry]

Unnecessarily fake tits.

Oxymoron.

[volunteerbrownie]

Not THE Samantha Steele from ESPN. That's a Samantha Steele who's a coed from Michigan State.

Doesn't matter to me... BOTH are smoking hot!

[Cerebral_DownTime]

I like this trade?

[motherscratcher]

All I'll say is that I really hope Bauer pans out. After Kipnis, Santana and LaPorta all failing to be playas, I'm losing my ability to be excited about deals like this.

On paper, looks great. Now we just need it to pan out.

Why are you lumping Kipnis and Santana in with LaPorta? The former two are pretty solid players. They have flaws but they're probably going to get better.

Because Kipnis and Santana, like LaPorta, were supposed to be elite. Not just solid. None of them has lived up to expectations. LaPorta, is, obviously, the biggest disappointment, but his horrific failure doesn't erase Kipnis and Santana's smaller failure.

Have you considered the possibility that the actual problem might just be your expectations?

[TouchEmAllTime]

Ewww man hands.

[smalls1129]

FWIW, just watched Mitch Williams on the MLB Network wear out Bauer for Bauer's unwillingness to accept coaching and his poor mechanics.

Now, Mitch was a little stubborn in his day as well, but this trade isn't as much of a homerun as many are making it out to be. IF Bauer is willing to make changes for the better, and that's a BIG IF the more and more I hear about him, he could be a gamechanger. But, there appears to be legitimate questions about make-up and coachability

I have read and listened to comments like this all day but I have to say after reading up on why he doesn't seem to want to change I can't blame him. Look in the last 20 years MLB pitching coaches and organizations have limited throwing on the side and have enacted all sort of pitch count limits allegedly to keep pitchers from getting hurt. And guess what, it hasn't helped at all. If you read a bit about his training regiment you'll see that he is the first of a whole wave of young pitchers who are trying a different approach. All that I know is pitchers used to by able to pitch double headers without getting injured and it seems the more they are babied the more susceptible they've come to arm troubles. Just a wild guess but I would say that near 50% of active pitchers have had TJ surgery. Obviously something is not working when surgery is the norm rather than exception. Oh by the way CA came out today and said they're not going to mess with his pregame routine, so maybe it won't matter how hard headed he is on the subject.

[dmiles]

Regarding Kyle Boddy, I will admit not reading up on his pitching stuff, but that's because he's a Dr. Chris Yeager disciple on the hitting side, and I've pointed out the flaws in Yeager's stuff many times on other sites. I have a hard time reading what he has to say about pitching if thinks Yeager's stuff is top-notch, but who knows maybe he's got a better handle on the pitching side. Nice guy, just needs to get rid of his Yeager DVDs.

I've been looking at some Drew Stubbs home runs and mechanics are his problem. I don't know his history other than he is a freakishly good athlete considering he can rip off stolen bases on a 6'4" frame. So far what I am seeing in Stubbs swing is that he seems to be taking the bottom hand down to the ball. There just isn't time in a major league batters box to line up a pitch and swing your arms as fast as you can. Most of the home runs are hit way out in front, which means his timing window has to be absolutely perfect to jack one. As I review the homers on MLB, several of them are line drives that barely clear the fence. So far very few towering Ryan Braun type homers that you typically see in most power hitters.

A change of scenery might help a little so we'll see. His swing reminds me of what I see a lot of guys teaching down at the batting cages. Hands to the ball moving the arms as fast as possible. I'll see if I can make a clip later.

[leadpipe]

FWIW, just watched Mitch Williams on the MLB Network wear out Bauer for Bauer's unwillingness to accept coaching and his poor mechanics.

Now, Mitch was a little stubborn in his day as well, but this trade isn't as much of a homerun as many are making it out to be. IF Bauer is willing to make changes for the better, and that's a BIG IF the more and more I hear about him, he could be a gamechanger. But, there appears to be legitimate questions about make-up and coachability

Isn't this why they got such perceived quality in the first place?

Cause if Bauer had perfect mechanics, make-up and attitude to go along with the stuff, he wouldn't be going anywhere.

The Tribe needs some talent. Rolling the dice with a loose cannon is an OK gamble im my book. Hell, it's a longshot to get a prospect to blossom, him being kind of a dick is minor.

And if you can PLAY you can PLAY. If he's a true playa he won't need the coaching.