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Reds and Indians deep in Choo trade talks

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Reds and Indians deep in Choo trade talks

Unread postby British_Pharaoh » Tue Dec 11, 2012 5:26 pm

Didi Gregorius and Drew Stubbs for Choo AND another player


Now, I recognise that Choo can become a free agent next offseason and that Cincy may only enjoy his services for one year, but that trade proposal is utter gash (a pejorative English term)

Choo alone for those two players isn't great

Stubbs has speed and a bit of power and is a veteran but is an abysmal hitter overall and has no on base skills.

Gregorius is only 22 but has pretty meagre numbers at the Minor League level (.265/.324/.717)

**** this trade off immediately

http://www.rotoworld.com/headlines/mlb/ ... re-of-choo
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Re: Reds and Indians deep in Choo trade talks

Unread postby skatingtripods » Tue Dec 11, 2012 5:31 pm

Kevin Towers, Arizona's GM, reportedly has a hard-on for Gregorius. If this becomes Choo for Bauer + other assets, I couldn't be happier. This isn't the only deal. This will have to be viewed as Choo + SS for Stubbs + pitching. At least, I think that's how it'll play out.

Gregorius has some developing to do with the bat and it seems like that's a pretty big question mark. I'd rather let Arizona figure that out. They wanted a SS with more than two years of control. Gregorius would be six.

Could be a real interesting couple of days here.
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Re: Reds and Indians deep in Choo trade talks

Unread postby Gradysmanldy » Tue Dec 11, 2012 5:32 pm

GUH, Shap.
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Re: Reds and Indians deep in Choo trade talks

Unread postby British_Pharaoh » Tue Dec 11, 2012 5:34 pm

skatingtripods wrote:Kevin Towers, Arizona's GM, reportedly has a hard-on for Gregorius. If this becomes Choo for Bauer + other assets, I couldn't be happier. This isn't the only deal. This will have to be viewed as Choo + SS for Stubbs + pitching. At least, I think that's how it'll play out.

Gregorius has some developing to do with the bat and it seems like that's a pretty big question mark. I'd rather let Arizona figure that out. They wanted a SS with more than two years of control. Gregorius would be six.

Could be a real interesting couple of days here.

I didn't factor a trade on of Gregorius as a possibility

We have a couple of SS's in-house so bringing in another young player relatively untried in the Majors would seem a bit odd.

I'd prefer Skaggs though from 'Zona
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Re: Reds and Indians deep in Choo trade talks

Unread postby skatingtripods » Tue Dec 11, 2012 5:37 pm

British_Pharaoh wrote:I'd prefer Skaggs though from 'Zona


I don't care if it's Skaggs, Bauer, Bradley + Corbin, whatever. All of those guys are far more promising than what we currently have at the ML level. As long as we get two (or more) of Arizona's pitchers for Cabrera.
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Re: Reds and Indians deep in Choo trade talks

Unread postby WiscTribeFan » Tue Dec 11, 2012 5:49 pm

skatingtripods wrote:Kevin Towers, Arizona's GM, reportedly has a hard-on for Gregorius. If this becomes Choo for Bauer + other assets, I couldn't be happier. This isn't the only deal. This will have to be viewed as Choo + SS for Stubbs + pitching. At least, I think that's how it'll play out.

Gregorius has some developing to do with the bat and it seems like that's a pretty big question mark. I'd rather let Arizona figure that out. They wanted a SS with more than two years of control. Gregorius would be six.

Could be a real interesting couple of days here.


Which means by Sunday night A-Cab will still be our SS, Choo will be our RF and Russ Branyan, I mean Mark Reynolds will be our 1b.

And our pitching will still suck.
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Re: Reds and Indians deep in Choo trade talks

Unread postby British_Pharaoh » Tue Dec 11, 2012 6:19 pm

Hoynes has it down as a 3 team deal (inc. 'Zona) but A-Cab is not part of negotiations thus far

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Re: Reds and Indians deep in Choo trade talks

Unread postby dazindiansfanuk » Tue Dec 11, 2012 6:36 pm

6 years of Gregorius (a pretty high end SS prospect) and 3 years of Stubbs (undoubtedly flawed, but with some unfulfilled potential) for 1 year of Choo is a pretty good deal from where I'm looking.

It would seem I'm higher on Gregorius than the rest of you though.

That said, looks like the deal is much bigger than that...... looks like we're throwing in another piece to Cincy - so it would depend on who that was.

Then, looks like we'd be planning on flipping Gregorius to AZ, so it would depend who we got back there..... personally, I'd rather keep Gregorius and still trade AC, but that doesn't seem to be an option.

Then there's the "Will we bring in any FAs to fill holes left by Choo or others".

Let's see how it all shakes out before we pass judgement.
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Re: Reds and Indians deep in Choo trade talks

Unread postby skatingtripods » Tue Dec 11, 2012 6:44 pm

dazindiansfanuk wrote:It would seem I'm higher on Gregorius than the rest of you though.


My problem with Gregorius is that, in this market, we need offensive production from a SS. We can't afford big name corner OFs and have to get guys like Reynolds on 1-2 year deals to play 1B. He's got a .699 OPS in the minors. He can definitely pick it, with good range and a good arm, but we've gotta get some bat out of that position.

That said, looks like the deal is much bigger than that...... looks like we're throwing in another piece to Cincy - so it would depend on who that was.

Then, looks like we'd be planning on flipping Gregorius to AZ, so it would depend who we got back there..... personally, I'd rather keep Gregorius and still trade AC, but that doesn't seem to be an option.

Then there's the "Will we bring in any FAs to fill holes left by Choo or others".

Let's see how it all shakes out before we pass judgement.


I like the options this gives us. We have no shortage of directions we can go if this deal goes through.
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Re: Reds and Indians deep in Choo trade talks

Unread postby Jumbo » Tue Dec 11, 2012 6:46 pm

Stubbs can't hit.

Don't know much about Gregorius, but Crasnick on twitter says scouts see him "as a utility player or average SS on 2nd division club. Oh, and he "plays with energy." Meh.

If the Indians can spin him to AZ for a pitcher, then this deal seems fine. Otherwise, not.
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Re: Reds and Indians deep in Choo trade talks

Unread postby phutatorius » Tue Dec 11, 2012 7:51 pm

With Reynolds and Stubbs in the everyday, we could bring in 400 K from two players next year. Maybe they're hoping to bring in Vornado as a sponsor?
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Re: Reds and Indians deep in Choo trade talks

Unread postby Dnthateonthepronk » Tue Dec 11, 2012 7:52 pm

It all depends on who the other player is or what they get for Gregorious if they decide to flip him or if they decide to trade Asdrubal. Not really concerned about Stubbs, he is just an adequate right handed hitter roster filler Outfielder, we are taking so we dont have to see Carrera......at least see him right away right away. They need a body for the outfield and Stubbs is it.......jesus christ, we are going to lead the league in K's :thud:
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Re: Reds and Indians deep in Choo trade talks

Unread postby dazindiansfanuk » Tue Dec 11, 2012 8:51 pm

@Ken_Rosenthal: Three-team trade, per source, will look like this: Choo, Jason Donald to #Reds, Gregorius to #Diamondbacks, Stubbs, AZ pitcher to #Indians.

@Ken_Rosenthal: Corbin, Skaggs and Bauer were among #Diamondbacks pitchers who were in play. #Indians would get one in this deal; Skaggs unlikely.

All from Twitter
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Re: Reds and Indians deep in Choo trade talks

Unread postby skatingtripods » Tue Dec 11, 2012 8:56 pm

Stubbs and Bauer for Choo? Yeah, I'd do that.

Edit: Stubbs and Corbin works too.
Last edited by skatingtripods on Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Reds and Indians deep in Choo trade talks

Unread postby dazindiansfanuk » Tue Dec 11, 2012 8:58 pm

If that was the deal, then Donald is a non-issue.

In terms of pitchers coming back my preference would be Skaggs, Bauer and then Corbin (in that order).

Seeing as all AZ would be getting was Gregorius, then that'd lead me to believe the most likely is Corbin.

Corbin & Stubbs for Choo and a throw-in isn't a bad deal though seeing as there's just a year left of control for Choo.

Then you've still got AC to look to move elsewhere for pitching if you want.
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Re: Reds and Indians deep in Choo trade talks

Unread postby skatingtripods » Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:03 pm

dazindiansfanuk wrote:Then you've still got AC to look to move elsewhere for pitching if you want.


Reds get better, Cardinals invariably need to get better. And they've got a ton of arms for us to be interested in.
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Re: Reds and Indians deep in Choo trade talks

Unread postby dazindiansfanuk » Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:11 pm

@hoynsie #Indians deal with Reds and Arizona could include between 7 and 9 players.

It gets more interesting...... Rosenthal's tweet suggested a 5-player deal.... question becomes who is then the other 2-4 players in a potential deal and where are they going?
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Re: Reds and Indians deep in Choo trade talks

Unread postby Dnthateonthepronk » Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:19 pm

Corbin for Choo works out well. Probably cant expect to do much better.
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Re: Reds and Indians deep in Choo trade talks

Unread postby skatingtripods » Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:25 pm

Dnthateonthepronk wrote:Corbin for Choo works out well. Probably cant expect to do much better.


Corbin's more of a sure thing. A real quality #3 starter with plus stuff and great command. Bauer's got some learning to do and some maturing. Not saying I wouldn't take him, as he clearly has more upside and front of the rotation potential. Also probably more of an injury risk.

Either guy makes us better for a while. That's the takeaway here.
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Re: Reds and Indians deep in Choo trade talks

Unread postby Dnthateonthepronk » Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:30 pm

skatingtripods wrote:
Dnthateonthepronk wrote:Corbin for Choo works out well. Probably cant expect to do much better.


Corbin's more of a sure thing. A real quality #3 starter with plus stuff and great command. Bauer's got some learning to do and some maturing. Not saying I wouldn't take him, as he clearly has more upside and front of the rotation potential. Also probably more of an injury risk.

Either guy makes us better for a while. That's the takeaway here.


I would prefer Bauer to Corbin but wouldn't complain and would take either one at this point for 1 year of Choo. :thumb up: Good deal Shapiro( I know Antonnetti is Gm, its a joke).....makes up for not signing Greinke :hide:

It does say Stubbs is Arb eligible, wonder what the number for him is going to be.
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Re: Reds and Indians deep in Choo trade talks

Unread postby dazindiansfanuk » Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:35 pm

Dnthateonthepronk wrote:It does say Stubbs is Arb eligible, wonder what the number for him is going to be.


MLBTR has him estimated at $2.9m, compared to $7.9m for Choo.

So, that's $5m more to throw at Swisher?

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2012/10/p ... -2013.html
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Re: Reds and Indians deep in Choo trade talks

Unread postby dazindiansfanuk » Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:49 pm

Choo to the Reds is a done deal according to Jon Heyman.... now we wait and see what the rest of the deal is.
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Re: Reds and Indians deep in Choo trade talks

Unread postby dazindiansfanuk » Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:50 pm

Donald also a Red...... other names TBC.
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Re: Reds and Indians deep in Choo trade talks

Unread postby skatingtripods » Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:58 pm

If Tony Sipp is in the deal, I'm sure as shit not going to miss that fucking stiff.
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Re: Reds and Indians deep in Choo trade talks

Unread postby dazindiansfanuk » Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:59 pm

Yep, talk now is we included Sipp and Lars Anderson with Donald & Choo to get Bauer and Stubbs.
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Re: Reds and Indians deep in Choo trade talks

Unread postby dazindiansfanuk » Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:04 pm

Didi Gregorius ‏@DidiG18
I want to thank the @Reds nd the fans for everything :) but Now I'm heading to the Dbacks... Same life new team :D
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Re: Reds and Indians deep in Choo trade talks

Unread postby Adverb Harry » Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:07 pm

Not Lars Anderson! We're cutting ties with him way too soon. Kid's going to be a real star. Plus, he was our crowning achievement at the trading deadline.

In all seriousness, maybe, just maybe we could squeeze Bauer out of Arizona with this deal. And, if so, we've still got the far more attractive (in terms of value, not physical beauty...he's hideous) Asdrubal to dangle out there for more good, close-to-the-majors prospects.

This deal might work out for us. Just got to see who's coming our way.
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Re: Reds and Indians deep in Choo trade talks

Unread postby andrew6586 » Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:08 pm

Correction: Sipp was traded for a new pair of cleats.
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Re: Reds and Indians deep in Choo trade talks

Unread postby Adverb Harry » Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:08 pm

Buster Olney says we got Bauer!!
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Re: Reds and Indians deep in Choo trade talks

Unread postby dazindiansfanuk » Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:11 pm

‏@ZackMeisel
Indians will end up with Trevor Bauer, Drew Stubbs and relievers Bryan Shaw and Matt Albers. Will part w/ Choo, Sipp, Lars Anderson.
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Re: Reds and Indians deep in Choo trade talks

Unread postby skatingtripods » Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:11 pm

I'm going to hate myself for saying this, and I fully expect somebody to make me eat crow if I'm wrong, but I think we're going to wind up wishing we had gotten Patrick Corbin instead.

Just a gut feeling. I really hope I'm dead wrong.
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Re: Reds and Indians deep in Choo trade talks

Unread postby andrew6586 » Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:13 pm

From twitter:

Indians will end up with Trevor Bauer, Drew Stubbs and relievers Bryan Shaw and Matt Albers. Will part w/ Choo, Sipp, Lars Anderson.
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Re: Reds and Indians deep in Choo trade talks

Unread postby Adverb Harry » Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:13 pm

skatingtripods wrote:I'm going to hate myself for saying this, and I fully expect somebody to make me eat crow if I'm wrong, but I think we're going to wind up wishing we had gotten Patrick Corbin instead.

Just a gut feeling. I really hope I'm dead wrong.


I hope you're wrong, too! ;-) ;) :wink:
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Re: Reds and Indians deep in Choo trade talks

Unread postby andrew6586 » Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:16 pm

So glad to have Jack Bauer. He will strike guys out by 10 and kill some terrorists by 11.
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Re: Reds and Indians deep in Choo trade talks

Unread postby Adverb Harry » Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:18 pm

andrew6586 wrote:So glad to have Jack Bauer. He will strike guys out by 10 and kill some terrorists by 11.


His daughter's pretty hot, too.
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Re: Reds and Indians deep in Choo trade talks

Unread postby dazindiansfanuk » Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:18 pm

Done Deal

Indians get: Trevor Bauer, Drew Stubbs, Matt Albers, Bryan Shaw
D Backs get: Didi Gregorius, Tony Sipp, Lars Anderson
Reds get: Shin Soo Choo, Jason Donald.
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Re: Reds and Indians deep in Choo trade talks

Unread postby dazindiansfanuk » Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:20 pm

Purely from an Indians standpoint it's Choo, Donald, Sipp & Anderson for Bauer, Stubbs, Albers, Shaw.

Looks good to me.
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Re: Reds and Indians deep in Choo trade talks

Unread postby andrew6586 » Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:21 pm

According to an SI interview, Bauer has experimented with 19 pitches. Perhaps he can show Ubaldo that there are more than just 2 pitches: suck and souvenir.
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Re: Reds and Indians deep in Choo trade talks

Unread postby Adverb Harry » Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:21 pm

dazindiansfanuk wrote:Done Deal

Indians get: Trevor Bauer, Drew Stubbs, Matt Albers, Bryan Shaw
D Backs get: Didi Gregorius, Tony Sipp, Lars Anderson
Reds get: Shin Soo Choo, Jason Donald.


If Bauer's arm doesn't fall off (a very distinct possibility assuming he's now an Indian), this is a steal for Cleveland. A front of the rotation stud plus two interesting relievers and (if nothing else) a warm outfield body for one year of Choo (who's gone anyway) and crap (Anderson and Sipp). And Donald, too. He's not crap, but he's close.

Shapiro and Antonetti, I won't admit this much, but on this deal at least, I :salute: you.
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Re: Reds and Indians deep in Choo trade talks

Unread postby andrew6586 » Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:23 pm

Good God, their offense is going to be worse than last year.
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Re: Reds and Indians deep in Choo trade talks

Unread postby skatingtripods » Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:31 pm

By my very quick math, looks like the deal might have given us around $7M more to throw at Swisher or another FA as well.
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Re: Reds and Indians deep in Choo trade talks

Unread postby dazindiansfanuk » Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:32 pm

Adding two ML bullpen arms (even with losing Sipp) opens the door for perhaps a trade of a BP arm (CP or even Joe Smiff?).

Loving this move.... esentially it's 1 year of Choo and a bunch of meh that you've traded away..... Anderson? Don't need to say anything about him. Sipp? Anyone trust him late in a game? Donald? Some utility value, but out of options and a DFA waiting to happen.
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Re: Reds and Indians deep in Choo trade talks

Unread postby noles1 » Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:38 pm

Why did Arizona do this deal?

They really that high on Gregorius?

Looks like a nice deal for the Tribe. Still not sure how we score runs those, assuming A Cab moves, as well.
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Re: Reds and Indians deep in Choo trade talks

Unread postby dazindiansfanuk » Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:42 pm

skatingtripods wrote:By my very quick math, looks like the deal might have given us around $7M more to throw at Swisher or another FA as well.


‏@Ken_Rosenthal
Source: #Indians to send #Reds approximately $3.5M to account for differences in projected salaries between Choo, Stubbs.
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Re: Reds and Indians deep in Choo trade talks

Unread postby skatingtripods » Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:43 pm

dazindiansfanuk wrote:
skatingtripods wrote:By my very quick math, looks like the deal might have given us around $7M more to throw at Swisher or another FA as well.


‏@Ken_Rosenthal
Source: #Indians to send #Reds approximately $3.5M to account for differences in projected salaries between Choo, Stubbs.


Damnit.
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Re: Reds and Indians deep in Choo trade talks

Unread postby ndog » Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:44 pm

This is a good deal for the Tribe. Hopefully Stubbs bounces back and getting Bauer for what we gave up is nice. Salary savings is gravy on top.
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Re: Reds and Indians deep in Choo trade talks

Unread postby skatingtripods » Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:52 pm

noles1 wrote:Why did Arizona do this deal?

They really that high on Gregorius?


Ownership had soured on Bauer. Viewed him as immature. Spoke on it at season's end. Has some command issues, probably a bit of an egomaniac from being told how great he is for so long. Danny Knobler of CBSSports says that Bauer fell into trouble when Jerry DiPoto became the GM in Anaheim. I don't think Towers liked Bauer much. Thinks Bauer needs a fresh start.

I think they are high on Gregorius. They also have a lot of SP depth and a lot of good arms. Gregorius is a plus-plus defender, but his offense is questionable. Chase Field is a hitter haven, so he's probably a better fit there than here, so his bat may come around.
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Re: Reds and Indians deep in Choo trade talks

Unread postby drum » Tue Dec 11, 2012 11:06 pm

At first glance I can get into this move.
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Re: Reds and Indians deep in Choo trade talks

Unread postby cozmeesah » Tue Dec 11, 2012 11:30 pm

Oh my Lord are some people on other random Tribe sites stupid. :gah:
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Re: Reds and Indians deep in Choo trade talks

Unread postby aldamon » Tue Dec 11, 2012 11:35 pm

andrew6586 wrote:According to an SI interview, Bauer has experimented with 19 pitches. Perhaps he can show Ubaldo that there are more than just 2 pitches: suck and souvenir.


Wow, amazing trade. It's going to be humorous to have a guy like Ubaldo who cannot figure out his delivery on the same team as Bauer, who analyzes his delivery endlessly. I think you're right. Maybe Bauer can figure out Ubaldo? Win-win.

I'm also assuming the DBacks have now eaten Bauer's signing bonus. Nice.
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