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Chef's @ Brownies - Romeo and Juliettes return

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Re: Chef's @ Brownies - Romeo and Juliettes return

Unread postby FUDU » Sun Dec 09, 2012 11:31 pm

True, and I forgot about that to be honest. Left my seats to hit the head right when he tossed the flag, I returned the Chiefs had the ball. I wonder how confident he was that the play would get over turned?
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Re: Chef's @ Brownies - Romeo and Juliettes return

Unread postby Gradysmanldy » Mon Dec 10, 2012 9:07 am

Awfully quiet around these parts this morning.
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Re: Chef's @ Brownies - Romeo and Juliettes return

Unread postby FUDU » Mon Dec 10, 2012 9:35 am

Gradysmanldy wrote:Awfully quiet around these parts this morning.


We must have a lot of closet Chiefs fans.
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Re: Chef's @ Brownies - Romeo and Juliettes return

Unread postby Hikohadon » Mon Dec 10, 2012 10:45 am

Gradysmanldy wrote:Awfully quiet around these parts this morning.


Everyone has forgotten how to say something nice. The Dark Side is quicker/easier.

Legitimately, we'll really see where this team is the next 3 weeks.
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Re: Chef's @ Brownies - Romeo and Juliettes return

Unread postby jerryroche » Mon Dec 10, 2012 11:09 am

The second half was certainly much easier to watch than the first half, which seemed like what it was: a battle between two loser teams, one of which is slowly swimming upward and one of which is weighted to the bottom of the lake.

Has Shurmur either found God or earned his Ph.D. in Football Strategy during the last three weeks, or is he still the same old Paddy?
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Re: Chef's @ Brownies - Romeo and Juliettes return

Unread postby jerryroche » Mon Dec 10, 2012 11:10 am

The second half was certainly much easier to watch than the first half, which seemed like what it was: a battle between two loser teams, one of which is slowly swimming upward and one of which is weighted to the bottom of the lake.

Has Shurmur either found God or earned his Ph.D. in Football Strategy during the last three weeks, or is he still the same old Paddy?
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Re: Chef's @ Brownies - Romeo and Juliettes return

Unread postby rk » Mon Dec 10, 2012 11:11 am

Hikohadon wrote:
Gradysmanldy wrote:Awfully quiet around these parts this morning.


Everyone has forgotten how to say something nice. The Dark Side is quicker/easier.

Legitimately, we'll really see where this team is the next 3 weeks.


Huh? Pretty sure anyone who doesn't know where this team is hasn't been watching much football.

When healthy they are a legitimate middle-of-the road team. They have very good line play and a handful of playmakers on offense (Morgan, Richardson, Little, Hardesty) and at least one big playmaker on defense (Haden).

They play solid all round ball and they can play against just about anyone. The losses they've had during the year have arguably been due to missing players (Haden, Taylor) or inexperience at the beginning of the year with the offense.

None of the remaining teams have the Browns circled as a victory. None are going to overlook this team. But while the Browns are separating themselves from the bottom feeders (Chiefs/Oakland) they're not going to be a national draw or considered a favorite in the NFL until they take another step or two on either offense or defense.

Frankly they're in the best shape of the reborn Browns.
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Re: Chef's @ Brownies - Romeo and Juliettes return

Unread postby peeker643 » Mon Dec 10, 2012 11:37 am

rk wrote:
Hikohadon wrote:
Gradysmanldy wrote:Awfully quiet around these parts this morning.


Everyone has forgotten how to say something nice. The Dark Side is quicker/easier.

Legitimately, we'll really see where this team is the next 3 weeks.


Huh? Pretty sure anyone who doesn't know where this team is hasn't been watching much football.

When healthy they are a legitimate middle-of-the road team. They have very good line play and a handful of playmakers on offense (Morgan, Richardson, Little, Hardesty) and at least one big playmaker on defense (Haden).

They play solid all round ball and they can play against just about anyone. The losses they've had during the year have arguably been due to missing players (Haden, Taylor) or inexperience at the beginning of the year with the offense.

None of the remaining teams have the Browns circled as a victory. None are going to overlook this team. But while the Browns are separating themselves from the bottom feeders (Chiefs/Oakland) they're not going to be a national draw or considered a favorite in the NFL until they take another step or two on either offense or defense.

Frankly they're in the best shape of the reborn Browns.


Agree- They can beat the dregs and occasionally play with the better teams. They're 5-minute milers. They'll beat the slower guys and run with the best up to a certain point where talent and ability takes over.

But they have the same overwhelming needs now they had last season: elite QB and competent coach.

If 5-8 makes you think that's not the case then all you're doing is looking at the W-L column each week and not the actual game.
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Re: Chef's @ Brownies - Romeo and Juliettes return

Unread postby bac5665 » Mon Dec 10, 2012 11:43 am

Peek, are you saying that Weeds is not the answer or that the jury is still out in your mind?

I ask because, the way I look at it, we can't do better than Weeds, at least not for next year, so Weeds is going to start next year, period. And I've seen enough flashes that I want to see him after having this coming winter to reflect and improve on his rookie season. I think he has the potential to be really good next year. He also probably has to be the potential to be DA II. But don't think we'll know for sure until next season at the earliest.

Just curious where you think we are in getting our QB and what options you think we have.
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Re: Chef's @ Brownies - Romeo and Juliettes return

Unread postby peeker643 » Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:12 pm

bac5665 wrote:Peek, are you saying that Weeds is not the answer or that the jury is still out in your mind?

I ask because, the way I look at it, we can't do better than Weeds, at least not for next year, so Weeds is going to start next year, period. And I've seen enough flashes that I want to see him after having this coming winter to reflect and improve on his rookie season. I think he has the potential to be really good next year. He also probably has to be the potential to be DA II. But don't think we'll know for sure until next season at the earliest.

Just curious where you think we are in getting our QB and what options you think we have.


No we can't. He's the guy for the next year or so, I agree. I'm just saying he's not the guy long term. You still need to get that guy.
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Re: Chef's @ Brownies - Romeo and Juliettes return

Unread postby bac5665 » Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:22 pm

Weeds may or may not be that guy. I think there is still legitimate hope for him. But I do think that his next year play will show us his ceiling. He is who he'll be next year.

Peeks, do you think that Romo can win the SB? Flacco? Rivers? If those QBs can, the Weeds is probably the guy for us, because I think he will be as good or better than those QBs, as early as next year. If Weeds needs to be as good as Rogers, Brees, Eli Payton or Brady, than he's probably not the guy.
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Re: Chef's @ Brownies - Romeo and Juliettes return

Unread postby Gradysmanldy » Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:36 pm

I think after the last couple of weeks he's shown that he can be a competent game manager, a guy that can potentially have rockstar games, but is probably never going to be elite. It's ok get to get a competent game manager in place, and his upside is clearly higher than Colts. At this point i'd give him Cutler on the high side, Alex Smith/Drew Bledsoe on the low side, among modern comps.

Agreed that he'll get next year to show off UNLESS they bring in Vick (which I think is a possibility, depending on Arizona and Buffalo) and I think he'll benefit enormously from an off season and the growth there, as well as a new coach....probably both.
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Re: Chef's @ Brownies - Romeo and Juliettes return

Unread postby bac5665 » Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:43 pm

I'll take Cutler. Cutler is that Bears team and they find ways to win with him at the helm.
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Re: Chef's @ Brownies - Romeo and Juliettes return

Unread postby peeker643 » Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:48 pm

bac5665 wrote:Weeds may or may not be that guy. I think there is still legitimate hope for him. But I do think that his next year play will show us his ceiling. He is who he'll be next year.

Peeks, do you think that Romo can win the SB? Flacco? Rivers? If those QBs can, the Weeds is probably the guy for us, because I think he will be as good or better than those QBs, as early as next year. If Weeds needs to be as good as Rogers, Brees, Eli Payton or Brady, than he's probably not the guy.


History (and a list of Super Bowl winning QBs) tell me that the guys you mentioned aren't enough to overcome their team's fatal flaws either. Some of that is outside their control.

But Weeden does things on the field that a guy who's played football at the highest levels just shouldn't do. Things like too often lacking pocket presence (watched him drift into pressure too many times yesterday) and holding the ball too long probably are inherent issues that won't get great deal better over time much like Romo's penchant to make a really bad decision at critical times won't improve.

Could those guys, if everything around them is ideal, win a SB? Probably, but answer isn't so clear cut to me to be obvious.

I won't say I'm unhappy with what Weeden has brought (overall) but I sure haven't seen enough to indicate the Browns have their answer there.
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Re: Chef's @ Brownies - Romeo and Juliettes return

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:49 pm

How in da fuck is Drew Bledsoe a downside? Christ, the guy was a legit top three QB in the league for a good run. He went to shit, but damn.
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Re: Chef's @ Brownies - Romeo and Juliettes return

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:53 pm

And Peeks, HooDoo was right, you are going to see a new evolution post the "only elite QBs win Super Bowls" evolution we are currently ending. The league is a shit sandwich right now and talent is so watered-down you have some truly terrible play. Combine that with the further ridiculousness of the rule-evolution and you are going to see average QBs starting to perform like elite QBs, average running games looking historic, and above-average defenses looking like the '86 Bears. Collecting the "just right" talent to put around these okay QBs is going to get easier and easier.

What we saw the last few years was the first step in the evolution, the next step is the further arenafootballificiation of the NFL. Pretty soon you'll see better fundamentals displayed at the HS level too.
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Re: Chef's @ Brownies - Romeo and Juliettes return

Unread postby rk » Mon Dec 10, 2012 2:32 pm

peeker643 wrote:No we can't. He's the guy for the next year or so, I agree. I'm just saying he's not the guy long term. You still need to get that guy.


Hilarious. I'd love to see your list of guys in the NFL you would consider a long term answer. I'll even make it easy and consider long term just the next 2 years. Let's go through all 32 teams and you tell me which ones have better 'long term' answers than the Browns. Here's my list. Feel free to use it as a starter:

Teams with a legitimate long term QB:

Green Bay - Aaron Rogers
NJ Giants - Eli Manning
DC Redskins - RGIII
Colts - Luck
Atlanta - Ryan

Teams without a sure-fire starting QB for 2014:

Everyone Else
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Re: Chef's @ Brownies - Romeo and Juliettes return

Unread postby peeker643 » Mon Dec 10, 2012 2:40 pm

rk wrote:
peeker643 wrote:No we can't. He's the guy for the next year or so, I agree. I'm just saying he's not the guy long term. You still need to get that guy.


Hilarious. I'd love to see your list of guys in the NFL you would consider a long term answer. Let's go through all 32 teams and you tell me which ones have better 'long term' answers than the Browns. Here's my list. Feel free to use it as a starter:

Teams with a legitimate long term QB:

Green Bay - Aaron Rogers
NJ Giants - Eli Manning
DC Redskins - RGIII
Colts - Luck
Atlanta - Ryan

Teams without a sure-fire long term QB:

Everyone Else


Is that because Schaub, Kaepernick, Roethlisberger, Brady, Stafford, Brees and Cam are dying?

I'm not saying a guy will be at one place forever. I'm saying Weeden doesn't have the winnability of any of those guys. I'd take any of them over Weeden. And yeah... you take Weeden and I'll take Brady and we'll see which one is still an NFL starter in four years.

Why do you think he does or may? Because he throws hard? Because he dissects offenses with the clinical skills of s surgeon? Because of his athletic ability? Because of his blood and guts leadership and command? He's shown one of those things and that's a dime a dozen trait everywhere in the league except here.

Can he develop and be an 'elite' guy? Sure. Could happen. But I haven't seen a thing to indicate it's coming. Maybe you have?
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Re: Chef's @ Brownies - Romeo and Juliettes return

Unread postby bac5665 » Mon Dec 10, 2012 2:42 pm

You have to include Roethlesburger on that list. He makes plays. I hate him, but he makes plays. Also, Peyton Manning is elite until he tells you otherwise. Denver goes on that list. And Brady. In short, your list is terrible. I'd also replace Ryan with Cutler.

And I'm not at all sure that any team between your list and mine does have a shot in the next two years. I'd be pretty shocked if any team not on the list wins the SB until after 2014.
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Re: Chef's @ Brownies - Romeo and Juliettes return

Unread postby peeker643 » Mon Dec 10, 2012 2:47 pm

bac5665 wrote:You have to include Roethlesburger on that list. He makes plays. I hate him, but he makes plays. Also, Peyton Manning is elite until he tells you otherwise. Denver goes on that list. And Brady. In short, your list is terrible. I'd also replace Ryan with Cutler.

And I'm not at all sure that any team between your list and mine does have a shot in the next two years. I'd be pretty shocked if any team not on the list wins the SB until after 2014.


I honestly don't think I'd take Cutler over Weeden. Not because of anything other than Cutler is an absolute, accredited douche bag. I thought about that in my response but I couldn't take Cutler. I also think Flacco > Weeden and I don't think extremely highly of Flacco. From strictly what I've watched, I'd personally be fine with Wilson and Foles over Weeden. I wouldn't fight for it or care, but they're in the same general boat IMO.
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Re: Chef's @ Brownies - Romeo and Juliettes return

Unread postby motherscratcher » Mon Dec 10, 2012 2:57 pm

I thought of these boards (myself VERY much included) when I saw this and I laughed.

http://deadspin.com/5962569/take-your-elite-quarterback-argument-and-shove-it-in-your-butthole
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Re: Chef's @ Brownies - Romeo and Juliettes return

Unread postby Hikohadon » Mon Dec 10, 2012 3:05 pm

There's no way in fuck that you can list Schaub as an elite QB and then state that there's no way Weeden could be.

I myself wouldn't list Schaub as elite, but if you do, then, shit, Weeden can be that.
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Re: Chef's @ Brownies - Romeo and Juliettes return

Unread postby peeker643 » Mon Dec 10, 2012 3:11 pm

Hikohadon wrote:There's no way in fuck that you can list Schaub as an elite QB and then state that there's no way Weeden could be.

I myself wouldn't list Schaub as elite, but if you do, then, shit, Weeden can be that.


I didn't say those guys were elite. I said IMO they had more 'winnability' than Weeden. Yes, I made that word up, but I think you can figure out what I put into it by my previous post.

I mentioned 'elite' only in that we don't all that Weeden will be yet. He's been hampered by the coaching incompetence and he's a rookie. I acknowledge both those facts. He could one day become all everything I guess. I'm saying today that I take all those guys (and the guys RK mentioned) over Weeden right here and now and never look back.

I think Weeden's okay. I think if you put him on the Texans right now (today) the Texans would be worse off than they are with Schaub, but that Weeden could grow into Schaub or better. But I think there's a better chance that he's not even Schaub.

YMMV
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Re: Chef's @ Brownies - Romeo and Juliettes return

Unread postby Hikohadon » Mon Dec 10, 2012 3:11 pm

rk wrote:
Hikohadon wrote:
Gradysmanldy wrote:Awfully quiet around these parts this morning.


Everyone has forgotten how to say something nice. The Dark Side is quicker/easier.

Legitimately, we'll really see where this team is the next 3 weeks.


Huh? Pretty sure anyone who doesn't know where this team is hasn't been watching much football.

When healthy they are a legitimate middle-of-the road team. They have very good line play and a handful of playmakers on offense (Morgan, Richardson, Little, Hardesty) and at least one big playmaker on defense (Haden).

They play solid all round ball and they can play against just about anyone. The losses they've had during the year have arguably been due to missing players (Haden, Taylor) or inexperience at the beginning of the year with the offense.

None of the remaining teams have the Browns circled as a victory. None are going to overlook this team. But while the Browns are separating themselves from the bottom feeders (Chiefs/Oakland) they're not going to be a national draw or considered a favorite in the NFL until they take another step or two on either offense or defense.

Frankly they're in the best shape of the reborn Browns.


Translation - they'll need to make that step in order to win out, which means they would be in a different place in 3 weeks than they are now.

They get blown out the next 3 weeks and the Happy Feelings that everyone has sprouted will be gone.

After the Browns beat NO and NE in 2010, there was NO WAY that Mangini was getting fired. Couple weeks later, he's gone.

The next 3 weeks will go a LONG way towards the fate of this team's employees.
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Re: Chef's @ Brownies - Romeo and Juliettes return

Unread postby Hikohadon » Mon Dec 10, 2012 3:14 pm

peeker643 wrote:
Hikohadon wrote:There's no way in fuck that you can list Schaub as an elite QB and then state that there's no way Weeden could be.

I myself wouldn't list Schaub as elite, but if you do, then, shit, Weeden can be that.


I didn't say those guys were elite. I said IMO they had more 'winnability' than Weeden. Yes, I made that word up, but I think you can figure out what I put into it by my previous post.

I mentioned 'elite' only in that we don't all that Weeden will be yet. He's been hampered by the coaching incompetence and he's a rookie. I acknowledge both those facts. He could one day become all everything I guess. I'm saying today that I take all those guys (and the guys RK mentioned) over Weeden right here and now and never look back.

I think Weeden's okay. I think if you put him on the Texans right now (today) the Texans would be worse off than they are with Schaub, but that Weeden could grow into Schaub or better. But I think there's a better chance that he's not even Schaub.

YMMV


I don't think he's that far off from being a Schaub, which isn't necessarily props to him as much as I don't think it would be that much of a stretch for any number of QB's to be Schaub if they had all that talent around them.

EDIT - The only QB's that I feel Weeden has no chance of touching:

Eli Manning
Peyton Manning
Tom Brady
Drew Brees
RG3
Andrew Luck
Cam Newton
Aaron Rodgers

And if Kaepernick becomes what his potential is, then Weeden can't touch that either.

The high end of that spectrum (not that I'm saying Weeden will achieve that or even that the chances are good) is good enough to threaten the SB, though.

Teams where you feel better having Weeden than what they've got:

KC
NYJ
MIN
JAX
ARI
TEN
OAK
BUF

Weeden's in that morass in the middle where he can either get his shit together enough to become a playoff QB (not necessarily SB-winning) or keep the team perenially around .500 and prevent them from drafting high enough to get Mr. Elite.
Last edited by Hikohadon on Mon Dec 10, 2012 3:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Chef's @ Brownies - Romeo and Juliettes return

Unread postby bac5665 » Mon Dec 10, 2012 3:18 pm

I've never understood the Schaub hate. Dude gets it done. I would think in the NFL, all we care about is consistent results, and Schaub's been getting those, at least for the last few years.
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Re: Chef's @ Brownies - Romeo and Juliettes return

Unread postby peeker643 » Mon Dec 10, 2012 3:26 pm

bac5665 wrote:I've never understood the Schaub hate. Dude gets it done. I would think in the NFL, all we care about is consistent results, and Schaub's been getting those, at least for the last few years.


And I'd be fine if Weeden = Schaub in a year or two. I personally don't think Weeden gets there but that's completely my opinion. But that doesn't mean you're winning at the ultimate level with him (Weeden or Schaub). I think San Fran came to that conclusion when they made the switch to a more dynamic, athletic, stronger-armed guy in Kaepernick.

Again, it may very well be that the staff here hasn't permitted Weeden to exhibit some of the more dynamic tools you prefer in a QB. But to this point, for whatever reason, I haven't seen them. Not in the losses or the wins.
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Re: Chef's @ Brownies - Romeo and Juliettes return

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Mon Dec 10, 2012 3:27 pm

Were you the one obsessed with Kaepernick before he was drafted Peeks?
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Re: Chef's @ Brownies - Romeo and Juliettes return

Unread postby peeker643 » Mon Dec 10, 2012 3:33 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:Were you the one obsessed with Kaepernick before he was drafted Peeks?


Yes. I'm a bit biased in that regard. I honestly didn't think he was going to be handed the reins (or take them) this quickly, but at Nevada his passing % kept rising each year and he threw for 3k and rushed for 1k as a senior. His athletic ability was always just at the low end of the Cam spectrum.

I wasn't aware how much of a gym rat he is which is how and why he learned that offense starting a couple hours after he was drafted.

Dude's 6'5 230lbs and biggest knock was progressions and his release, both of which he's clearly worked on. He also went in the 2nd round and I wasn't thinking he was going there.
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Re: Chef's @ Brownies - Romeo and Juliettes return

Unread postby jerryroche » Mon Dec 10, 2012 3:37 pm

peeker643 wrote:Again, it may very well be that the staff here hasn't permitted Weeden to exhibit some of the more dynamic tools you prefer in a QB. But to this point, for whatever reason, I haven't seen them. Not in the losses or the wins.


Peeks, I think I'm going to wait a bit to make any hasty judgments on Weeden. For one, I don't think he and the WCO are particularly compatible. (If your definition of an elite QB is someone who can fit into any system, then Weeds is probably not elite.) Two, his bad passes have been high, wide or late. High is curable: he's not following through. Wide is probably curable: it could be that he's still not comfortable with the speed of NFL wide receivers. Late is very curable: on-time deliveries largely require experience at the NFL level, and he's getting it this season.

You may be entirely right in saying that he can probably never approach "elite" on the NFL level. But that doesn't mean he can't develop into a helluva decent QB in the near future.
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Re: Chef's @ Brownies - Romeo and Juliettes return

Unread postby Hikohadon » Mon Dec 10, 2012 3:54 pm

bac5665 wrote:I've never understood the Schaub hate. Dude gets it done. I would think in the NFL, all we care about is consistent results, and Schaub's been getting those, at least for the last few years.


Not hating on Schaub - just that he's fairly ordinary. He's good, don't get me wrong, but that team almost made it to the AFC Championship Game with a 3rd stringer. I don't think he could carry a bad team the way Luck or RG3 have this year.
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Re: Chef's @ Brownies - Romeo and Juliettes return

Unread postby Gradysmanldy » Mon Dec 10, 2012 4:00 pm

Flacco, Cutler, Shaub, Smith, Rivers......meh.

They're all guys that you can win a chip with, given the rest of your team is hitting on all cylinders. Pretty comparable group.

Brady, Brees, Rodgers, Mannings, etc....guys that can win it all even when you're not hitting on all cylinders.

We've got a guy that's moving out of the "unnaceptable" range and into the first group. Bully, but Peeks/Ey/SD/Swerb all want a guy thats in the latter range. Last year saw two kids that will likely join that latter echelon. Unlikely we see one next year, and that's not so horrible because it looks like the rest of the squad can be respectable even without the elite guy. (Especially if they bring in a free agent or two for depth and get a fearless pass rushing RDE)
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Re: Chef's @ Brownies - Romeo and Juliettes return

Unread postby Hikohadon » Mon Dec 10, 2012 4:19 pm

Gradysmanldy wrote:Flacco, Cutler, Shaub, Smith, Rivers......meh.

They're all guys that you can win a chip with, given the rest of your team is hitting on all cylinders. Pretty comparable group.

Brady, Brees, Rodgers, Mannings, etc....guys that can win it all even when you're not hitting on all cylinders.

We've got a guy that's moving out of the "unnaceptable" range and into the first group. Bully, but Peeks/Ey/SD/Swerb all want a guy thats in the latter range. Last year saw two kids that will likely join that latter echelon. Unlikely we see one next year, and that's not so horrible because it looks like the rest of the squad can be respectable even without the elite guy. (Especially if they bring in a free agent or two for depth and get a fearless pass rushing RDE)


I want a guy in that second range too, but I think you can kiss that goodbye for a while, both because of the talent coming out and the position the Browns will be in.

Flacco was a dropped pass from The Show. I don't see any reason Weeden can't get to Flacco level.

In the NFL, you'd be much better off going to war with a Super QB, but if that's just not gonna happen, I guess you try the Baltimore/Houston route.
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Re: Chef's @ Brownies - Romeo and Juliettes return

Unread postby Gradysmanldy » Mon Dec 10, 2012 5:09 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:How in da fuck is Drew Bledsoe a downside? Christ, the guy was a legit top three QB in the league for a good run. He went to shit, but damn.


I know it was a different era, and maybe im factoring in those horrid Dallas years, but I always saw him as the next tier of QB's at the time. Never in the Favre/Marino class, and he had some really nice years, but.....ehhh. Seems like Weeden's fairest comp on the high side; no mobility, good arm, threw a shitload of picks, etc.

So difficult to compare the guys in that generation to the current crop.
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Re: Chef's @ Brownies - Romeo and Juliettes return

Unread postby Gradysmanldy » Mon Dec 10, 2012 5:12 pm

Hikohadon wrote:
Gradysmanldy wrote:Flacco, Cutler, Shaub, Smith, Rivers......meh.

They're all guys that you can win a chip with, given the rest of your team is hitting on all cylinders. Pretty comparable group.

Brady, Brees, Rodgers, Mannings, etc....guys that can win it all even when you're not hitting on all cylinders.

We've got a guy that's moving out of the "unnaceptable" range and into the first group. Bully, but Peeks/Ey/SD/Swerb all want a guy thats in the latter range. Last year saw two kids that will likely join that latter echelon. Unlikely we see one next year, and that's not so horrible because it looks like the rest of the squad can be respectable even without the elite guy. (Especially if they bring in a free agent or two for depth and get a fearless pass rushing RDE)


I want a guy in that second range too, but I think you can kiss that goodbye for a while, both because of the talent coming out and the position the Browns will be in.

Flacco was a dropped pass from The Show. I don't see any reason Weeden can't get to Flacco level.

In the NFL, you'd be much better off going to war with a Super QB, but if that's just not gonna happen, I guess you try the Baltimore/Houston route.



And make no bones about it, it's still super difficult to get to the Baltimore/Houston route; still have to get the insanely good lines, playmaking defensive guys, etc, and find a guy that doesn't shit himself in pressure situations. Much easier to end up in Oakland/Tampa purgatory, where your qb just isn't even good enough to get you to the table and your defense is just not at that level. (or get Detroits situation, where your qb is mistake prone and has to be perfect to win)
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Re: Chef's @ Brownies - Romeo and Juliettes return

Unread postby rk » Mon Dec 10, 2012 6:24 pm

peeker643 wrote:Is that because Schaub, Kaepernick, Roethlisberger, Brady, Stafford, Brees and Cam are dying?


That is literally correct for Brees (33), Roethlisberger (30), and Brady (35). Brady will be 37 in 2014. Brees 35 and showing signs of degrading performance. And Roethlisberger 32 but of the three his game is the most physical so his 'NFL' age is more advanced then the others.

Schaub and Kaepernick being listed as sure-fire starters in 2014 is ridiculous. Schaub starting all of 2012 was questionable at the start of the season and Kaepernick has only started two games. Calling him elite right now in a conversation about Weeden is comical. Although I like Schaub and applaud Houston for keeping with him as they build a run-oriented offense.

I considered Stafford but his teams are consistently losing. I'll grant you that he's likely to still be a fixture in 2014 as long as Megatron is around but at a certain point there's going to be worries about him. Newton is in a similar boat. Both would have been considered locks to be starting, elite QBs in 2014. Now, a year removed from peak years, that's no longer a lock even though they will both likely be starting in 2014. Of the two Stafford is more likely to still be in the mix as an elite QB.


What it boils down to is that 1/4 of the NFL doesn't have anything set for 2014 so trying to judge long term answers at QB and stating that our 29 year old, in his first season and proving moderately successful particularly in the second half of the year, is not going to at least be in the mix as a good/great starting QB in 2014 is a conversation non-starter.

He's in the mix. And if his improvement over the year is any indication he's more than just in the mix. He's shown that he is perfectly capable of being a starting NFL QB on a competitive team. If he doesn't improve (or regresses) in the offseason than certainly there will be a need to go another route for a long term solution. But it is silly to determine today that he is not the answer for 2014.
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Re: Chef's @ Brownies - Romeo and Juliettes return

Unread postby comish » Mon Dec 10, 2012 6:39 pm

peeker643 wrote:
rk wrote:
Hikohadon wrote:
Gradysmanldy wrote:Awfully quiet around these parts this morning.


Everyone has forgotten how to say something nice. The Dark Side is quicker/easier.

Legitimately, we'll really see where this team is the next 3 weeks.


Huh? Pretty sure anyone who doesn't know where this team is hasn't been watching much football.

When healthy they are a legitimate middle-of-the road team. They have very good line play and a handful of playmakers on offense (Morgan, Richardson, Little, Hardesty) and at least one big playmaker on defense (Haden).

They play solid all round ball and they can play against just about anyone. The losses they've had during the year have arguably been due to missing players (Haden, Taylor) or inexperience at the beginning of the year with the offense.

None of the remaining teams have the Browns circled as a victory. None are going to overlook this team. But while the Browns are separating themselves from the bottom feeders (Chiefs/Oakland) they're not going to be a national draw or considered a favorite in the NFL until they take another step or two on either offense or defense.

Frankly they're in the best shape of the reborn Browns.


Agree- They can beat the dregs and occasionally play with the better teams. They're 5-minute milers. They'll beat the slower guys and run with the best up to a certain point where talent and ability takes over.

But they have the same overwhelming needs now they had last season: elite QB and competent coach.

If 5-8 makes you think that's not the case then all you're doing is looking at the W-L column each week and not the actual game.


To be fair they had quite a few MORE glaring needs last year and they most certainly HAVE addressed ADEQUATELY some of them through the draft and supplemental draft.

If you are saying they didn't address QB or Coach to your liking, fine.....but they certainly fixed some other major leaks.

Draft is looking like a solid B+ if not A now, huh pal? :salute:
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Re: Chef's @ Brownies - Romeo and Juliettes return

Unread postby pod2dawg » Mon Dec 10, 2012 10:06 pm

Two cents.....obviously jury is still out on Weeds. Now that his receivers are catching the ball & the line is keeping him upright the spotlight glare will be bright on him from here out. He has a gun, but damn those 2-3 throws he makes a game are beyond horrible. Then he'll zip one on the money to our guy in full stride.

Like Eyo says we do have the flagfootball evolution thing working for us. That plus a better play caller & healed Richardson's ribs , future has some light at the end of the tunnel and it ain't a train coming at us for the first time in a decade.
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Re: Chef's @ Brownies - Romeo and Juliettes return

Unread postby peeker643 » Mon Dec 10, 2012 11:04 pm

rk wrote:
peeker643 wrote:Is that because Schaub, Kaepernick, Roethlisberger, Brady, Stafford, Brees and Cam are dying?


That is literally correct for Brees (33), Roethlisberger (30), and Brady (35). Brady will be 37 in 2014. Brees 35 and showing signs of degrading performance. And Roethlisberger 32 but of the three his game is the most physical so his 'NFL' age is more advanced then the others.

Brees maybe. He's a midget. But I will bet all three of those guys are playing and starting and playing at a high level in 2014. And Roethlisberger is 18 months older than Weeden. He's bigger, stronger, faster, etc. Yes, he has some wear on the tires, but he's better equipped physically even now to play the position than Weeden IMO. Unfortunately for us.

Schaub and Kaepernick being listed as sure-fire starters in 2014 is ridiculous. Schaub starting all of 2012 was questionable at the start of the season and Kaepernick has only started two games. Calling him elite right now in a conversation about Weeden is comical. Although I like Schaub and applaud Houston for keeping with him as they build a run-oriented offense.

Why do people keep saying I'm calling them elite? I said I'd take any of the guys I mentioned over Weeden now and 2014 and I stand by that. A few of the guys I'd take are elite. But you don't have to be elite to get the nod over Weeden from me. If you wouldn't take Kaepernick over Weeden today I'm not sure what to say, to be honest. Schaub is a good QB. Not great, not elite, but a good QB. Weeden aspires to that level of success.

I considered Stafford but his teams are consistently losing. I'll grant you that he's likely to still be a fixture in 2014 as long as Megatron is around but at a certain point there's going to be worries about him. Newton is in a similar boat. Both would have been considered locks to be starting, elite QBs in 2014. Now, a year removed from peak years, that's no longer a lock even though they will both likely be starting in 2014. Of the two Stafford is more likely to still be in the mix as an elite QB.

^^^^^^^^^
And I'm being comical and hilarious? Again, I think you're nuts, plainly and simply, on the above.



What it boils down to is that 1/4 of the NFL doesn't have anything set for 2014 so trying to judge long term answers at QB and stating that our 29 year old, in his first season and proving moderately successful particularly in the second half of the year, is not going to at least be in the mix as a good/great starting QB in 2014 is a conversation non-starter.

Clearly it's not a non-starter judging by the last 15 or so posts.

He's in the mix. And if his improvement over the year is any indication he's more than just in the mix. He's shown that he is perfectly capable of being a starting NFL QB on a competitive team. If he doesn't improve (or regresses) in the offseason than certainly there will be a need to go another route for a long term solution. But it is silly to determine today that he is not the answer for 2014.

He's going to get 2013 to determine that. Partly because he's earned that and partly because there are no clear cut options as it stands today that can usurp him. But I'm standing by what I said 8 months ago as well as 8 hours ago: he's just a guy and you're going to need more than what he brings to the table.
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Re: Chef's @ Brownies - Romeo and Juliettes return

Unread postby OldDawg » Mon Dec 10, 2012 11:15 pm

Gradysmanldy wrote:Awfully quiet around these parts this morning.

Could it be the collective silence as every NEO Browns fan contemplates the possibility that Shur might be saving his job....
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Re: Chef's @ Brownies - Romeo and Juliettes return

Unread postby peeker643 » Mon Dec 10, 2012 11:20 pm

comish wrote:
Draft is looking like a solid B+ if not A now, huh pal? :salute:


No, it's not. Not in my opinion. The players are okay, but the acquisition costs have to be considered.

I like TRich just fine, but Doug Martin & Alfred Morris, et al are exhibit A why you don't trade away picks to move up a spot for a RB. I think TRich is fine, but the principle doesn't change. And you know my thoughts on Weeden. Schwartz has been excellent, JMJ has done nothing, John Hughes was a reach who has contributed nominally, Gordon has to be considered a 2013 2nd rounder (though it was a great move and one I liked when they made it), Travis Benjamin has been meh and Ryan Miller/Emanuelle Acho haven't contributed a thing. Billy Wynn has been okay.

Again, this roster was so pathetic in years before this that I think too may people are excited about finding midgets in a box of pygmies.

Not trying to be a dick or a pessimist. This team is better. It is on the "upswing". But a lot of that is because of how far down they were before.
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Re: Chef's @ Brownies - Romeo and Juliettes return

Unread postby Fire Marshall Bill 2.0 » Mon Dec 10, 2012 11:36 pm

Not trying to be a dick or a pessimist.

Well you sure as hell depress the shit out of me...you and Hiko both

JFC, just jump already

You're all like..."Hope is a moment now long past. The Shadow of Death is the one I cast"

No fucking lollipops for you
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Re: Chef's @ Brownies - Romeo and Juliettes return

Unread postby peeker643 » Mon Dec 10, 2012 11:42 pm

Fire Marshall Bill 2.0 wrote:Not trying to be a dick or a pessimist.

Well you sure as hell depress the shit out of me...you and Hiko both

JFC, just jump already

You're all like..."Hope is a moment now long past. The Shadow of Death is the one I cast"

No fucking lollipops for you


That quote is inspiring. Thank you.

Here's another one: "Hope in one hand and shit in the other and tell me which hand fills up faster." -Anon

Oh... I was in a store the other day that sells all kind of jerky and shit. They had gravy flavored lollipops. Beef, chicken and turkey (though I personally have difficulty distinguishing between chicken and turkey gravy, but I digress). I nearly puked just reading the label.
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Re: Chef's @ Brownies - Romeo and Juliettes return

Unread postby OldDawg » Mon Dec 10, 2012 11:49 pm

peeker643 wrote:
comish wrote:
Draft is looking like a solid B+ if not A now, huh pal? :salute:


No, it's not. Not in my opinion. The players are okay, but the acquisition costs have to be considered.

I like TRich just fine, but Doug Martin & Alfred Morris, et al are exhibit A why you don't trade away picks to move up a spot for a RB. I think TRich is fine, but the principle doesn't change. And you know my thoughts on Weeden. Schwartz has been excellent, JMJ has done nothing, John Hughes was a reach who has contributed nominally, Gordon has to be considered a 2013 2nd rounder (though it was a great move and one I liked when they made it), Travis Benjamin has been meh and Ryan Miller/Emanuelle Acho haven't contributed a thing. Billy Wynn has been okay.

Again, this roster was so pathetic in years before this that I think too may people are excited about finding midgets in a box of pygmies.

Not trying to be a dick or a pessimist. This team is better. It is on the "upswing". But a lot of that is because of how far down they were before.


I am pleased with this year's acquisitions. Gordon (though next year's pick) help solidify this rounds' picks. However, many thought both TRich and Weeden would've been available without trading up to get either one of them.
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Re: Chef's @ Brownies - Romeo and Juliettes return

Unread postby leadpipe » Mon Dec 10, 2012 11:50 pm

peeker643 wrote:
comish wrote:
Draft is looking like a solid B+ if not A now, huh pal? :salute:


No, it's not. Not in my opinion. The players are okay, but the acquisition costs have to be considered.

I like TRich just fine, but Doug Martin & Alfred Morris, et al are exhibit A why you don't trade away picks to move up a spot for a RB. I think TRich is fine, but the principle doesn't change. And you know my thoughts on Weeden. Schwartz has been excellent, JMJ has done nothing, John Hughes was a reach who has contributed nominally, Gordon has to be considered a 2013 2nd rounder (though it was a great move and one I liked when they made it), Travis Benjamin has been meh and Ryan Miller/Emanuelle Acho haven't contributed a thing. Billy Wynn has been okay.

Again, this roster was so pathetic in years before this that I think too may people are excited about finding midgets in a box of pygmies.

Not trying to be a dick or a pessimist. This team is better. It is on the "upswing". But a lot of that is because of how far down they were before.


That first round woulda been great when Mike Holmgren was on the sideline. For the year 20 and 12 it was awful.
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Re: Chef's @ Brownies - Romeo and Juliettes return

Unread postby Hikohadon » Tue Dec 11, 2012 1:12 am

Oh, and to throw in my two cents on Stafford.... I have watched an inordinate amount of his games the last two years bc he was/is my fantasy starter, and fuck that fuckin guy. You think Weeden throws bad passes sometimes? That douche throws 7-10 per game. WTF passes all over the place. If he didn't have Calvin Johnson to throw it for grabs to, he'd be bench fodder.

He throws for a bunch of yards and scores fantasy points bc he buttfucked his team into an early hole and has to throw 40 times in the second half to try and dig them out of his mistakes.

If that hump is considered elite I'll eat my freakin shoe.
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Re: Chef's @ Brownies - Romeo and Juliettes return

Unread postby Fire Marshall Bill 2.0 » Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:42 am

peeker643 wrote:
Fire Marshall Bill 2.0 wrote:Not trying to be a dick or a pessimist.

Well you sure as hell depress the shit out of me...you and Hiko both

JFC, just jump already

You're all like..."Hope is a moment now long past. The Shadow of Death is the one I cast"

No fucking lollipops for you


That quote is inspiring. Thank you.

Here's another one: "Hope in one hand and shit in the other and tell me which hand fills up faster." -Anon

Oh... I was in a store the other day that sells all kind of jerky and shit. They had gravy flavored lollipops. Beef, chicken and turkey (though I personally have difficulty distinguishing between chicken and turkey gravy, but I digress). I nearly puked just reading the label.


Well see that's where you go off the tracks.... I have no hope...I only have what I see

...and as for the pile of shit, I once dropped a load so big it took an entire company of Marines to conquer and put a flag on

..but I digress....

Who would you and Hiko have drafted with the 2 st rndrs last draft?

Where would this team be right now without TR and Weeds?

Who would be the QB?
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Re: Chef's @ Brownies - Romeo and Juliettes return

Unread postby Hikohadon » Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:07 am

Fire Marshall Bill 2.0 wrote:
peeker643 wrote:
Fire Marshall Bill 2.0 wrote:Not trying to be a dick or a pessimist.

Well you sure as hell depress the shit out of me...you and Hiko both

JFC, just jump already

You're all like..."Hope is a moment now long past. The Shadow of Death is the one I cast"

No fucking lollipops for you


That quote is inspiring. Thank you.

Here's another one: "Hope in one hand and shit in the other and tell me which hand fills up faster." -Anon

Oh... I was in a store the other day that sells all kind of jerky and shit. They had gravy flavored lollipops. Beef, chicken and turkey (though I personally have difficulty distinguishing between chicken and turkey gravy, but I digress). I nearly puked just reading the label.


Well see that's where you go off the tracks.... I have no hope...I only have what I see

...and as for the pile of shit, I once dropped a load so big it took an entire company of Marines to conquer and put a flag on

..but I digress....

Who would you and Hiko have drafted with the 2 st rndrs last draft?

Where would this team be right now without TR and Weeds?

Who would be the QB?


Why do you keep lumping me in with this? I was fine with the Weeds pick. I might not have taken him in the 1st, but I probably wouldn't have let him get past my 2nd. I just wanted him since I saw him as the best remaining option and stab out my eyes if I had to watch another year of Colt Ball.

If I didn't take Weeden in the 1st, I probably would've taken the best available RT in the 1st and Weeds in the 2nd, so in the end there's not much difference.

I just don't think Weeds will ever be a Top 10 QB. Good enough to win a SB? Maybe. But last night further depresses me since you got to see what happens when a good but non-elite QB with a good team goes up against an elite QB.

Problem is that it's harder than fuck to get an elite QB (I don't even see one on the horizon), so you gotta hope the guy you got is gonna be good enough. Probably he won't be, but that's just the nature of sport.

Regardless, he's our starter for this year and next, so I'm not gonna waste my time worrying about the QB question until this time next year.
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Re: Chef's @ Brownies - Romeo and Juliettes return

Unread postby Gradysmanldy » Tue Dec 11, 2012 11:07 am

peeker643 wrote:
comish wrote:
Draft is looking like a solid B+ if not A now, huh pal? :salute:


No, it's not. Not in my opinion. The players are okay, but the acquisition costs have to be considered.

I like TRich just fine, but Doug Martin & Alfred Morris, et al are exhibit A why you don't trade away picks to move up a spot for a RB. I think TRich is fine, but the principle doesn't change. And you know my thoughts on Weeden. Schwartz has been excellent, JMJ has done nothing, John Hughes was a reach who has contributed nominally, Gordon has to be considered a 2013 2nd rounder (though it was a great move and one I liked when they made it), Travis Benjamin has been meh and Ryan Miller/Emanuelle Acho haven't contributed a thing. Billy Wynn has been okay.

Again, this roster was so pathetic in years before this that I think too may people are excited about finding midgets in a box of pygmies.

Not trying to be a dick or a pessimist. This team is better. It is on the "upswing". But a lot of that is because of how far down they were before.


I'd still rather have almost any of the other top 10 picks over Trent, for the same reason, you mentioned, BUT i'm happy to have him on this team taking his licks and learning this year. He'll be serviceable at worst for the next 5-7 years, and at least he can catch out of the backfield.

The rest of the draft looks great, to me; i'd give it a B. 3-7 looks pretty damn good (excellent RT, two NFL capable d-lineman, and a linebacker that has looked good in limited work) Im meh on the acquisition cost of Weeden, cause like Hiko said, I would have been very happy with him at the top of the second, but the guys I wanted in the first were all O-lineman and they filled that need.
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Re: Chef's @ Brownies - Romeo and Juliettes return

Unread postby FUDU » Tue Dec 11, 2012 11:42 am

Hikohadon wrote:Problem is that it's harder than fuck to get an elite QB (I don't even see one on the horizon), so you gotta hope the guy you got is gonna be good enough. Probably he won't be, but that's just the nature of sport.


Exactly. You can't sit around all your life waiting for a no miss elite QB prospect to come out of the draft when you have to build a football team. There are at most only a handful of elite QBs in the league at any one time, it's inherent with the label. However there are still elite QBs that don't win a ring every year.

At some point you need to build the football team, and even if you don't have an elite QB it is still the most important position on the field, so you need to upgrade it if/when it's possible. Then you roll your TEAM out there and take your chances. Like the chicken and the egg, which came first the ring or the elite label.
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