Déjà vu All Over Again?

[mattvan1]

Eerily similar to Managin’s penultimate year. These last 3 games a huge – not because we can make the playoffs, but because they’re likely to determine the future of Shurmur and Heckert.

Win even 2 out of 3 and it’s gonna take major cojones on Banner’s part to whack the coach and GM, especially when players are talking about how they have turned the corner and how everyone is tight and pulling in the same direction.

Why couldn’t they just blow dead goats and end up 3-13 and remove all doubt? Not the position I had expected them to be in at this point of the season.

The thought of Shurmur at the helm going into 2013 does not make me giddy with anticipation, to say the least.

[SoulDawg74]

Eerily similar to Managin’s penultimate year. These last 3 games a huge – not because we can make the playoffs, but because they’re likely to determine the future of Shurmur and Heckert.

Win even 2 out of 3 and it’s gonna take major cojones on Banner’s part to whack the coach and GM, especially when players are talking about how they have turned the corner and how everyone is tight and pulling in the same direction.

Why couldn’t they just blow dead goats and end up 3-13 and remove all doubt? Not the position I had expected them to be in at this point of the season.

The thought of Shurmur at the helm going into 2013 does not make me giddy with anticipation, to say the least.

SD:

Not quite DeJa Vu , as Mangina's wins were a one dimensional anomaly with less than 150 yards passing per game , vs lame competition going nowhere end of the season save for the inbred win , which was single handily secured by Josh Cribbs special teams play.

This team is different , they are winning in all phases of play , and put up 30 points yesterday spearheaded by a legit passing attack and crushing ground game .

The Defense was nails , gave up an 80 yard firsts strike but didn't allow so much as a mouse fart outta the Chiefs the rest of the game .

They bulldoze three playoff contenders enroute to 500 while keeping their playoff aspirations in play until the last week topped off with a Butt whupping of them stinking inbred swine .

Sherms can stay in my book , and keep Heckert too , Banner can play with himself if he needs something to do , just to be doing something.


SoulDawg

[Hikohadon]

Question: Which would you prefer at this point?

A. Heckert and Shurmur are retained.

B. Heckert and Shurmur are both fired and Mike Lombardi/Josh McDaniels replace them?

I should probably add a "Bullet in the head" option, but I'm afraid no one would choose anything but that.

[mattvan1]

Question: Which would you prefer at this point?

A. Heckert and Shurmur are retained.

B. Heckert and Shurmur are both fired and Mike Lombardi/Josh McDaniels replace them?

I should probably add a "Bullet in the head" option, but I'm afraid no one would choose anything but that.

There it is - the crux of the matter. And at this point, I can honestly say that I just don't know.

[mattvan1]

Eerily similar to Managin’s penultimate year. These last 3 games a huge – not because we can make the playoffs, but because they’re likely to determine the future of Shurmur and Heckert.

Win even 2 out of 3 and it’s gonna take major cojones on Banner’s part to whack the coach and GM, especially when players are talking about how they have turned the corner and how everyone is tight and pulling in the same direction.

Why couldn’t they just blow dead goats and end up 3-13 and remove all doubt? Not the position I had expected them to be in at this point of the season.

The thought of Shurmur at the helm going into 2013 does not make me giddy with anticipation, to say the least.

SD:

Not quite DeJa Vu , as Mangina's wins were a one dimensional anomaly with less than 150 yards passing per game , vs lame competition going nowhere end of the season save for the inbred win , which was single handily secured by Josh Cribbs special teams play.

This team is different , they are winning in all phases of play , and put up 30 points yesterday spearheaded by a legit passing attack and crushing ground game .

The Defense was nails , gave up an 80 yard firsts strike but didn't allow so much as a mouse fart outta the Chiefs the rest of the game .

They bulldoze three playoff contenders enroute to 500 while keeping their playoff aspirations in play until the last week topped off with a Butt whupping of them stinking inbred swine .

Sherms can stay in my book , and keep Heckert too , Banner can play with himself if he needs something to do , just to be doing something.


SoulDawg

Good points about the offense - not even compareable between '09 and '12. But it's not as if we were then or are now beating good teams.

[FUDU]

Question: Which would you prefer at this point?

A. Heckert and Shurmur are retained.

B. Heckert and Shurmur are both fired and Mike Lombardi/Josh McDaniels replace them?

I should probably add a "Bullet in the head" option, but I'm afraid no one would choose anything but that.

I would prefer keep to keep what we have. We have to be objective and start to give Shurmur some credit. I mean every game we lost doesn't fall on him, there were some execution issues that could have given us 2 more wins up to this point.

Plus if there is 1 ounce of truth to any of the rumors that a Lombardi/McDaniels team would be coming here I would be scared, especially considering the attached rumor that they would look long and hard at bringing Michael Vick here. I cannot think of a worse scenario, and one that would alienate a fan base in a matter of a blink of an eye.

[Hikohadon]

Question: Which would you prefer at this point?

A. Heckert and Shurmur are retained.

B. Heckert and Shurmur are both fired and Mike Lombardi/Josh McDaniels replace them?

I should probably add a "Bullet in the head" option, but I'm afraid no one would choose anything but that.

There it is - the crux of the matter. And at this point, I can honestly say that I just don't know.

Me neither. I know I don't want Shurmur back, but Lombardi has the greater potential to fuck things up.

[Govbarney]

Question: Which would you prefer at this point?

A. Heckert and Shurmur are retained.

B. Heckert and Shurmur are both fired and Mike Lombardi/Josh McDaniels replace them?

I should probably add a "Bullet in the head" option, but I'm afraid no one would choose anything but that.

This is easy , as much as I dislike Shur , I would not hesitate to pick A, based solely on the fact McDaniels would revert this team back to a 3-4, completely undoing the one thing the Browns have done right on the rebuild front since '99.

[Hikohadon]

Question: Which would you prefer at this point?

A. Heckert and Shurmur are retained.

B. Heckert and Shurmur are both fired and Mike Lombardi/Josh McDaniels replace them?

I should probably add a "Bullet in the head" option, but I'm afraid no one would choose anything but that.

I would prefer keep to keep what we have. We have to be objective and start to give Shurmur some credit. I mean every game we lost doesn't fall on him, there were some execution issues that could have given us 2 more wins up to this point.

Plus if there is 1 ounce of truth to any of the rumors that a Lombardi/McDaniels team would be coming here I would be scared, especially considering the attached rumor that they would look long and hard at bringing Michael Vick here. I cannot think of a worse scenario, and one that would alienate a fan base in a matter of a blink of an eye.

Vick? Didn't hear that one. I guess all bad decisions come in threes.

[bac5665]

Hiko, this is why I've been hesitant all year to fire Shurmur. I still believe, and hope that I always believe, that the Mangini firing was the worst disaster of the New Browns. And getting rid of Heckert, regardless of anything else, looks likely to be a bigger disaster, without question. Look at the thread about how this team was assembled. The answer is Heckert. There are like 2 guys not brought in by Heckert. That's a remarkable statement about how bad the talent was before and about how well Heckert has drafted to assemble a team like this that quickly.

And Shurmur has been better during this winning streak. The bad coaching decisions appear to have down down. I am reminded by something Shurmur said a while back, something along the lines of, the playbook is simple and predictable right now because that's all the offense can handle. As they get better, it will get more complex. I think that may have been the case. And if it is, and Shurmur is going to continue to call better plays as the offense learns and grows, than I have an even harder time wanting to fire Shurmur.

So yeah, the choice here is pretty clear, if those are the options. If we can keep Heckert and bring in Sabin or someone, then maybe do it. But changing GMs right now is madness.

[LarsHancock]

The team is 5-8 now and could easily be 9-3. If Fort holds on to the INT vs. Philly, IF Gordon holds onto the touchdown vs. IND, IF we didn't blow the very winnable Dallas game, IF Ogbonnaya doesn't lineup wrong vs. BAL. We win 2 of 3 left, which could be easy, and that's 11 wins (like some idiot predicted at the start of the season). IF Haden wasn't out first four, that makes a difference too. Point is - we have the talent to win or to have won 11 games, even if we just didn't do it.

Would those games have been winnable under a different coach? Maybe. If the ghosts of VInce Lombardi and Bill Walsh possessed Shurmur are we at that 9-3 mark now? Who knows.

There are two big questions that need to be answered:
1) Is the Heckert system working? Clearly. We have the talent to be a double digit win team.
2) Is the Shurmur system working? Not so clear. Does the offense sputter at times from bad play calling, bad coaching, or bad QB play? One thing for certain: the current regime deserves a lot of credit for rebuilding Greg Little. Compare the guy on the field now from the guy on the field week 1 and you see marked coaching differences. Josh Gordon didn't play ball all of last year and is incredible - good coaching there. But how much more could this offense be doing?

And who have we really beat? Oakland and Kansas City are horrid, San Diego under Norv Turner is wretched, and was more wretched when we played them. Pit under Charlie Beyatch? Turrible, plus, they put the ball on the field 8 times for us. The Bungles game is the only good win against a good team.

Bottom line: I'm not sold on Shurmur in the least. He does a lot of stupid things and seems pretty clueless throughout the game. His game management is poor, his offense is regressive, an he's winning purely with talent and by beating inferior teams.

We win vs. Denver, and then we beat a Pittsburgh team fighting for a playoff spot, then we talk, until then, Shurmur is still over his head in my book. Keep Heckert, fire Shurmur.

And if we go Lombardi/McDaniels I may spontaneously combust.

[e0y2e3]

You hurt my head.

[Gradysmanldy]

There's the rub, and we all know it.

Do you keep Shurmur, who has the potential to become a better and more dynamic coach, because it means keeping Heckert in place? At the midway point of the season, we all said no, because the idea was this team is close to contention and should be able to lure a competent coach/GM.

If the option is Lombardi/Saban or Lobmardi/Daniels, it's a crapshoot, and certainly a rebuild. You can afford to take another year to figure out what you have in Heck/Shur, at that point, to make sure that you're not capable of winning under those guys. Can't just blow it up when most people around the league agree that you've actually got something to work with.

[pup]

The only correct answer is...

THIS is why he should have been fired at the bye.

[Govbarney]

You keep Heckert, and Shur and next year the Browns are the "sexy" pick to make the playoffs in the eyes of national media.

You shit can them, and we go right back to being the laughing stock who's going 1-15.

Now I dont give a rats-ass what the national media has to say, but I do think being the "sexy" team sells more season ticket packages, which may be weighing heavy on the mind of the man who just dropped a billion bucks IMO.

[mattvan1]

You keep Heckert, and Shur and next year the Browns are the "sexy" pick to make the playoffs in the eyes of national media.

You shit can them, and we go right back to being the laughing stock who's going 1-15.

Now I dont give a rats-ass what the national media has to say, but I do think being the "sexy" team sells more season ticket packages, which may be weighing heavy on the mind of the man who just dropped a billion bucks IMO.

You know, you make a really good point. Except I'm not sure that Haslam is as concerned with next year as he is the next 10 years.

[Nicastro13]

Winning can do funny thigns to us all! As little as a few days ago I was a clear 100% on the Shurminator being gone and hoping so. Only to have my brother flip out Sunday saying hes tired of it, give the guy a chance, he's a first time head coach learning ext and then watched the game, read player comments ext and now I'm probly 50/50. THese next 3 will tell me, but we get a banged up RG3/cousins, a Denver team thats wrapped up the division maybe only plaing for seeding and Pittsburgh, which will be huge game for them. He pulls off 2 outta 3 and we can talk about sticking around. If we sweep the steelers is anyone really gonna want him gone?

and side note if it means keeping Heckert I'm 100% in on another year, do not wish to have anything to do with a new GM, Lomardi or anyone else.

[e0y2e3]

Have any of you watched (or even followed) the Chiefs this year? Like really? Winning games you are supposed to win in the manner you are supposed to win them is nice and a sign of evolution, but this was hardly some job saving victory.

[Govbarney]

You keep Heckert, and Shur and next year the Browns are the "sexy" pick to make the playoffs in the eyes of national media.

You shit can them, and we go right back to being the laughing stock who's going 1-15.

Now I dont give a rats-ass what the national media has to say, but I do think being the "sexy" team sells more season ticket packages, which may be weighing heavy on the mind of the man who just dropped a billion bucks IMO.

You know, you make a really good point. Except I'm not sure that Haslam is as concerned with next year as he is the next 10 years.

I hope your right. But who wants to stomach another 5-10 yr rebuild.

I'm personally hoping for a partial tear down , i.e Keep Heckert, fire Shur, but bring in a guy who sticks with the 4-3 D. The Browns do that, and they may very well be able to keep the "sexy pick" status, as well as continue to build towards respectability.

[e0y2e3]

Well, that 2008 sexy pick status certainly helped the organization.....

[mattvan1]

Have any of you watched (or even followed) the Chiefs this year? Like really? Winning games you are supposed to win in the manner you are supposed to win them is nice and a sign of evolution, but this was hardly some job saving victory.

Yes, you see, and that is the entire point. When the fan base and the national media, both with attention spans measured in nanoseconds, jump on the bandwagon and start using phrases such as "up and coming", "hope for the future", and "a young team learning how to win" I am wondering what, if any, influence that will have on Banner and Haslam. Especially if they win 2 out of the last 3. Even though the current "streak" was built on wins over 5 teams of which 4 won't make the playoffs, and the other was against a team whose back up QB should be a greeter at Walmart.

And this thread has managed to drag both you and Soul back into the fray. All we need now is JB for the apathy trifecta

[e0y2e3]

I'm off work and bored, don't get used to it (and HooDoo is still not here).

[Gradysmanldy]

Zero chance this team beats Pittsburgh, in Pittsburgh, with playoff hopes on the line. Make your evaluations based on a 5-11 record. Even a Cousins-led Redskins game is only winnable because their defense is one of the worst in the league.

[Hikohadon]

Have any of you watched (or even followed) the Chiefs this year? Like really? Winning games you are supposed to win in the manner you are supposed to win them is nice and a sign of evolution, but this was hardly some job saving victory.

Not trying to defend Shurmy in any way, but for it to be "expected" that the Browns should beat ANY team 30-7 is quite a leap from where expectations were at the start of the year.

And, no, I haven't watched too much Chiefs. That's as heartless/gutless/nutless a team as I've ever seen. Dude had to off himself to wake them up for a week, and that's all it lasted.

[Gradysmanldy]

Not to be a dick, but that same shitass nutless Chiefs team went tit for tat with the Squeelers and beat the Ravens and Saints.

Cleveland murdered that team in a way i'm only used to seeing when the Steelers and Ravens are here, late in the season. Didn't even know how to act, just felt an annoyingly high level of pity for a decent fan base.

[e0y2e3]

Again, my friend being from KC that I spend many a Sunday's with, the Chiefs BLOW.

Worst team I've seen in a decade. It'd be like if you took the Panters and removed Cam.

They are that bad.

[Hikohadon]

Not to be a dick, but that same shitass nutless Chiefs team went tit for tat with the Squeelers and beat the Ravens and Saints.

Cleveland murdered that team in a way i'm only used to seeing when the Steelers and Ravens are here, late in the season. Didn't even know how to act, just felt an annoyingly high level of pity for a decent fan base.

They beat the Panthers and Saints. They played the Ravens tough, but lost.

I haven't looked at their schedule, but I think their blowouts were much more common than close games. They had the lead in games for 00:00 for half the season, for Zeus' sake. They are BAD. It's good the Browns took them to the shed, but I'll appreciate a 30-7 win over the Redskins a lot more.

[rebelwithoutaclue]

And Shurmur has been better during this winning streak. The bad coaching decisions appear to have down down. I am reminded by something Shurmur said a while back, something along the lines of, the playbook is simple and predictable right now because that's all the offense can handle. As they get better, it will get more complex. I think that may have been the case. And if it is, and Shurmur is going to continue to call better plays as the offense learns and grows, than I have an even harder time wanting to fire Shurmur.

I don't know what games you're watching but Shurmur still makes at least 2-3 calls per game, that anybody who has played Madden before would never make. Just this last game, is there a single reason anyone can think of as to why Richardson wasn't running the ball in from the goal line? You traded up to get him and you're leaving that job to Hardesty, who promptly fumbled? And don't get me started on running Josh Cribbs out there for returns, even after Travis Benjamin electrifies the crowd and made Cribbs look like the washed-up slowass that he is. And by far the worst call was his challenge of Cribbs' goal line dive. Cribbs got the first down so it's 1st and goal from the half yard line and, going back to the other point, you just traded up to draft a workhorse RB for this exact, goddamned situation. What is the reason for the challenge? Challenges are scarce, to waste one on a possible half yard when you'll have at least 3 plays to get that half yard and a score, is incomprehensible... unless you have watched Pat Shurmur coach.


If the choice is between Pat Shurmur and Mike Lombardi, I'll have a lot of free time on my hands next season.

[leadpipe]

What he F with this thread?

Anyone watching some football this year?

Good Christ if Haslam keeps that idiot we're fucked for another owner's tenure as well.

My. God. How many routine football decisions do you have to F up in a year.

Guy woulda been jettisoned from a CYO team if a GD Nun was half awake.

Christ.

And for proof? Watch how many teams flock for his services once they can him. The number will be about zero.

[jfiling]

Question: Which would you prefer at this point?

A. Heckert and Shurmur are retained.

B. Heckert and Shurmur are both fired and Mike Lombardi/Josh McDaniels replace them?

I should probably add a "Bullet in the head" option, but I'm afraid no one would choose anything but that.

This is easy , as much as I dislike Shur , I would not hesitate to pick A, based solely on the fact McDaniels would revert this team back to a 3-4, completely undoing the one thing the Browns have done right on the rebuild front since '99.

Any coach who would change the Browns back to the 3-4 should be immediately disqualified from consideration. The Browns have finally done the right thing and established the core of a killer 4-3 defense, and I think I may be done with this team if they try to switch back to the 3-4.

[mattvan1]

What he F with this thread?

Anyone watching some football this year?

Good Christ if Haslam keeps that idiot we're fucked for another owner's tenure as well.

My. God. How many routine football decisions do you have to F up in a year.

Guy woulda been jettisoned from a CYO team if a GD Nun was half awake.

Christ.

And for proof? Watch how many teams flock for his services once they can him. The number will be about zero.

I never wanted this to end up as a support mechanism for Shurmur. The real question was not what we want but what Haslam/Banner will do if this team finishes 8-8 or even 7-9? After starting 0-5?

Not what SHOULD they do but what WILL they do? And I think they are both hoping like hell they go 0-3 the rest of the way so they don't have that decision to make in January.

[LakeErieWarriors]

Can't believe I am (or anyone for that matter) on the fence about Shurmur now. But I am.

I think the main thing is if Shurmur's canned, who is going to replace him? Someone marginally better? Or can Jimmy's/Banner's influence bring someone here that we never had a shot at under Randy's ownership?

[swerb]

Keep Heckert. Rehire Mangini.

[leadpipe]

What he F with this thread?

Anyone watching some football this year?

Good Christ if Haslam keeps that idiot we're fucked for another owner's tenure as well.

My. God. How many routine football decisions do you have to F up in a year.

Guy woulda been jettisoned from a CYO team if a GD Nun was half awake.

Christ.

And for proof? Watch how many teams flock for his services once they can him. The number will be about zero.

I never wanted this to end up as a support mechanism for Shurmur. The real question was not what we want but what Haslam/Banner will do if this team finishes 8-8 or even 7-9? After starting 0-5?

Not what SHOULD they do but what WILL they do? And I think they are both hoping like hell they go 0-3 the rest of the way so they don't have that decision to make in January.

I have good faith that Haslam saw what I saw, and the decision has already been made.

I mean, what's gone on this year aren't little subjective arguments about play calling (at least from me). It ain't the plays - it's the 1980's offense that Haslam is well aware he's watching. It's him understanding that if a good pee wee coach takes over with 3:00 left in regulation, they beat Dallas - cause he's understand what the 2:00 warning does to the clock. He saw the guy go from the most stupildy conservative coach one week, to the most stupidly aggressive one the next.

The guy's been a boob. A moroon. A joke. He's submarined players in his defensive press conferences.

To be clear - The Browns have more talent out there than they've had since they've been back. This has allowed them to stumble upon some wins against the dregs of the league, while the coach has prevented a few others.

Again - just like the rest (save Romeo...Christ) Pat Shurmer will never be a head coach in the league again. He wasn't on any radar before, and he certainly isn't going to be on one after the disaster he's been here.

I'd actually like to know what anyone here thinks the guy does well. Leader of men? Clock management? Great offensive mind? Halftime adjustments? I mean, really, you'd get the same wins with a cardboard cut-out on that sideline.

[swerb]

What Lead Said. Have you people lost your mind?

[comish]

Keep Heckert. Rehire Mangini.

Hitting the Christmas Ales hard again I see......good for you!

[swerb]

Always.

[CleSportsTruth]

2 things:

Keep Heckert. Rehire Mangini.

1. #halfdrunktweets^ Keep Heckert though.

2. Look, it's simple. ANY future GM-Coach combo that involves Michael Lombardi is worse than what we have. Period.

[motherscratcher]

Keep Heckert. Rehire Mangini.

Mangini has prior head coaching experience and was a very successful coordinator. Sounds like a great fit.

[swerb]

I think Haslam already made up his mind. I pray he has. I mean, the odds are, he has. And once you make that leap in your mind, it's hard to go back.

Where's there's smoke, there's usually fire. The names you hear being linked to the potential opening are the ones you'd expect with a rich, brass, involved owner taking over: Saban, Chip Kelly, McDaniels.

I'd kick the tires REAL hard on Chip Kelly. And go right after him as soon as you can. Don't fall asleep at the wheel like they did with trading up to #2 to get RG3. I just got a feeling this guy would be a great NFL coach and that his offense approach would play well at the next level. Take away teams milking leads at the ends of games, and this is a 63% passing league anymore in the first 55 min of games.

The other guy I would aggressively pursue if he's available at all is Sean Payton.

Saban would mandate Lombardi as his GM, but you can't get rid of Heckert. Can you? BALL-SIE. He'd be hired to head another teams front office 5 min after getting Bannered.

[Hikohadon]

Keep Heckert. Rehire Mangini.

Mangini has prior head coaching experience and was a very successful coordinator. Sounds like a great fit.

I would LOVE another switch back to the 3-4. That would be teats.

[Gradysmanldy]

Cue the sounds of heads exploding all over Cleveland if a 3-4 guy is hired.