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"Winning isn't Everything" - Shapiro

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Re: "Winning isn't Everything" - Shapiro

Unread postby leadpipe » Tue Dec 04, 2012 9:58 pm

Look, I understand there is some "luck" involved in any deal flipping a playa for prospects. Certainly with some better luck things might be a bit different in this regard. But the organization is in waaaay worse shape than some prospects not panning out.

Way worse.

As worse a position as I can remember. And I'm gettin' old.

Not sure you could name a team in worse shape.

We can argue all day long in regard to how it got there, but make no mistake about it, it got there my NUMEROUS mistakes up top. That's just a fact.

And the thing is, it's not up to ME to understands who to draft. It's not up to ME to analyze the prospects we get back in trade correctly. It's not up to ME to decide to give a DH an organization crippling contract. It's up to the guys making 6 figures + in the organization - and make no mistake about it, over the last 10 or so years, they've done a pretty shitty job - a job that's beyond "luck." And again, why do we know this to be true? Look at the shape of the team.

I'm not an automatic "Dolan is cheap!!!" guy. I'm not a blind Shapiro hater. But this piece of shit team with an absolute dearth of prospects and very few playas didn't fall from the sky. It's not just dumb luck.

You wanna keep the front office in place, great. But nobody should be acting like it's ridiculous should one want to jettison some of these guys.

This market inside this game is what it is. What an organization like this needs to concentrate on hasn't been a secret in years - there's no fooling anyone here. You gotta dreaft, and you gotta realize the days to the miracle package in return for a playa is long gone.
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Re: "Winning isn't Everything" - Shapiro

Unread postby peeker643 » Wed Dec 05, 2012 9:57 am

Quote which numbers and stats you will in support of whatever side you come out on regarding Santana.

He's been disappointing. What appeared to be a core piece of any future success a couple years back doesn't look to be that today. What you hoped was a young leader a couple years back looks to be another guy who won't cut down on his swing and is interested more in hs own numbers than moving guys on the bases or cutting down on his swing to put a ball in play.

This team doesn't have one of those leaders. It ain't Santana, it ain't Cabbie and it ain't Choo. Not one of them has the mental makeup to be that guy and that's one of the huge issues with this club.

Santana ain't that guy either. Not unless he grows the fuck up and becomes a more disciplined, unselfish hitter. He has not improved a bit in that regard and unless he does he'll never be anything more than a decent player with holes in his game.

Good hitter, 6th/7th/8th on good team. Not elite player. Still a fine deal to get him for what you did but bloom is quickly coming off that rose.
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Re: "Winning isn't Everything" - Shapiro

Unread postby bac5665 » Wed Dec 05, 2012 11:09 am

Peeks, that's closer to what I originally wanted to talk about with Santana.

As it has been said many times on this forum, the Tribe needs Playas. He have none. Santana was supposed to be a Playa. That's what he was for. That was his purpose in the rebuild. In that role, he's been a dud, a disappointment, a miss. He is a decent catcher, sure. But that wasn't the standard we were told to grade him on.
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Re: "Winning isn't Everything" - Shapiro

Unread postby Erie Warrior » Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:03 pm

Free agents won't even play in Cleveland for more money. That's a leadership/ culture issue.
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Re: "Winning isn't Everything" - Shapiro

Unread postby gotribe31 » Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:59 pm

Erie Warrior wrote:Free agents won't even play in Cleveland for more money. That's a leadership/ culture issue.


Haha, right.
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Re: "Winning isn't Everything" - Shapiro

Unread postby Dnthateonthepronk » Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:04 pm

Erie Warrior wrote:Free agents won't even play in Cleveland for more money. That's a leadership/ culture issue.


Thats more of a Boston has a better chance to win at this point thing. It wasnt like we offered him 50-60 million and he turned it down. We only offered him 5 million more. I think we all would agree Boston has a better shot at winning the big one at this poinr right now in the next 4 years than Cleveland does.
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Re: "Winning isn't Everything" - Shapiro

Unread postby leadpipe » Wed Dec 05, 2012 5:38 pm

gotribe31 wrote:
Erie Warrior wrote:Free agents won't even play in Cleveland for more money. That's a leadership/ culture issue.


Haha, right.


Players will take more money.

Always have, always will.

Problem is being in such a poor position that you have to clearly outspend other suitors, thus making it next to impossible to get a good contract for the team.
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Re: "Winning isn't Everything" - Shapiro

Unread postby 1Perry » Wed Dec 05, 2012 7:45 pm

leadpipe wrote:
gotribe31 wrote:
Erie Warrior wrote:Free agents won't even play in Cleveland for more money. That's a leadership/ culture issue.


Haha, right.


Players will take more money.

Always have, always will.

Problem is being in such a poor position that you have to clearly outspend other suitors, thus making it next to impossible to get a good contract for the team.


As Nino Colla's article notes, it's where the Indians can offer the most money and still not get who they are after. Who exactly is going to sign with a team that releases statements that "winning isn't everything"?

It's amazing that people will still defend Shapiro.
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Re: "Winning isn't Everything" - Shapiro

Unread postby motherscratcher » Wed Dec 05, 2012 8:01 pm

1Perry wrote:
leadpipe wrote:
gotribe31 wrote:
Erie Warrior wrote:Free agents won't even play in Cleveland for more money. That's a leadership/ culture issue.


Haha, right.


Players will take more money.

Always have, always will.

Problem is being in such a poor position that you have to clearly outspend other suitors, thus making it next to impossible to get a good contract for the team.


As Nino Colla's article notes, it's where the Indians can offer the most money and still not get who they are after. Who exactly is going to sign with a team that releases statements that "winning isn't everything"?

It's amazing that people will still defend Shapiro.


I knew I could count on you to misinterpret and misrepresent what Shapiro was saying. Thanks for not letting me down. :thumb up:
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Re: "Winning isn't Everything" - Shapiro

Unread postby bookelly » Wed Dec 05, 2012 9:14 pm

skatingtripods wrote:
dazindiansfanuk wrote:If you only care about BAV, he's a dud.

Everything else suggest's he's been elite at his position the last two years....... some might have questions over the guys mental space - you could make a strong case that natural talent is over-coming his lack of effort.... but, like you said "dud" is ludicrous.


He's also only 340 games into his career and missed two months of key development time as a rookie.

No, he's not Buster Posey. But he's easily a top ten offensive catcher.


He's not a dud by any measure. One serious problem he has is that he gets the shit beat out of him behind the dish. He's got a plus arm, but damn is he poor with the mitt. We're gonna see a lot more of him at DH with Francona. Hopefully that will help him put up bigger numbers at the plate.
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Re: "Winning isn't Everything" - Shapiro

Unread postby pup » Thu Dec 06, 2012 10:00 am

Who exactly have we offered more money to an been turned down?
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Re: "Winning isn't Everything" - Shapiro

Unread postby peeker643 » Thu Dec 06, 2012 10:02 am

pup wrote:Who exactly have we offered more money to an been turned down?


I can think of Victorino this year and Carlos Pena last year (as well as maybe Beltran last season too?).
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Re: "Winning isn't Everything" - Shapiro

Unread postby pup » Thu Dec 06, 2012 10:08 am

peeker643 wrote:
pup wrote:Who exactly have we offered more money to an been turned down?


I can think of Victorino this year and Carlos Pena last year (as well as maybe Beltran last season too?).


Victorino is iffy at best. Total value was greater, but it was with an extra year I thought. So if he thinks he can get one more deal after these 3 years maybe he doesn't see it as being higher.

Thought Pena was so close in dollars it was negligible and probably equal of better in Tampa with the State Tax thing?
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Re: "Winning isn't Everything" - Shapiro

Unread postby 1Perry » Thu Dec 06, 2012 10:21 am

pup wrote:Who exactly have we offered more money to an been turned down?


It was seen as an absolute joke that the Indians could offer someone, like Beltran, more money than a team like St. Louis and they still couldn't sign him. If the Indians of all teams can't out-bid a team for someone, who can they sign?.............


Shane Victorino agreed to a three-year deal with the Boston Red Sox, worth $39 million dollars. The Indians offered Victorino one more year, and technically more money ($44 total), but less money spread out over the course of the contract. With the Red Sox he will make $13 million per season, with the Indians deal he makes $11 million per season. Sure, that's $2 million he loses next year, but we're talking about $5 more million guaranteed dollars and another guaranteed year of being paid.

The Indians out-bid the Sox, anyway you want to look at it.


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Re: "Winning isn't Everything" - Shapiro

Unread postby peeker643 » Thu Dec 06, 2012 10:35 am

pup wrote:
peeker643 wrote:
pup wrote:Who exactly have we offered more money to an been turned down?


I can think of Victorino this year and Carlos Pena last year (as well as maybe Beltran last season too?).


Victorino is iffy at best. Total value was greater, but it was with an extra year I thought. So if he thinks he can get one more deal after these 3 years maybe he doesn't see it as being higher.

Thought Pena was so close in dollars it was negligible and probably equal of better in Tampa with the State Tax thing?


Victorino will be 35-36 when his 3-ear deal ends. If you're him and you want the most money and the most security then you're taking 4/44. He's not getting a bigger deal as a 35 or 36yr old.

And I'm not doing tax analysis and advanced math regarding these offers and deals. The Indians offered Pena more money. They offered Beltran more money and they offered Victorino more money.

They didn't want to come here. How the hell can you blame any of them, really.
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Re: "Winning isn't Everything" - Shapiro

Unread postby motherscratcher » Thu Dec 06, 2012 10:50 am

1Perry wrote:
pup wrote:Who exactly have we offered more money to an been turned down?


It was seen as an absolute joke that the Indians could offer someone, like Beltran, more money than a team like St. Louis and they still couldn't sign him. If the Indians of all teams can't out-bid a team for someone, who can they sign?.............


Shane Victorino agreed to a three-year deal with the Boston Red Sox, worth $39 million dollars. The Indians offered Victorino one more year, and technically more money ($44 total), but less money spread out over the course of the contract. With the Red Sox he will make $13 million per season, with the Indians deal he makes $11 million per season. Sure, that's $2 million he loses next year, but we're talking about $5 more million guaranteed dollars and another guaranteed year of being paid.

The Indians out-bid the Sox, anyway you want to look at it.


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Anyway you look at it?

IDK, one way to look at it is that 13>11.

My dad is a math teacher so I know this to be true.
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Re: "Winning isn't Everything" - Shapiro

Unread postby motherscratcher » Thu Dec 06, 2012 10:58 am

peeker643 wrote:
pup wrote:
peeker643 wrote:
pup wrote:Who exactly have we offered more money to an been turned down?


I can think of Victorino this year and Carlos Pena last year (as well as maybe Beltran last season too?).


Victorino is iffy at best. Total value was greater, but it was with an extra year I thought. So if he thinks he can get one more deal after these 3 years maybe he doesn't see it as being higher.

Thought Pena was so close in dollars it was negligible and probably equal of better in Tampa with the State Tax thing?


Victorino will be 35-36 when his 3-ear deal ends. If you're him and you want the most money and the most security then you're taking 4/44. He's not getting a bigger deal as a 35 or 36yr old.

And I'm not doing tax analysis and advanced math regarding these offers and deals. The Indians offered Pena more money. They offered Beltran more money and they offered Victorino more money.

They didn't want to come here. How the hell can you blame any of them, really.


I'm not sure you can really use that logic on the Victorino situation. All he would need ot make the cash even out after 3 years is a 1/5 deal. Nothing is assured but I'd think that was a pretty safe bet, unless he completely falls off a cliff talent wise. That's possible, but most of these guys don't end up in the major leagues with a lack of confidence in their own abilities.

Another thing to consider is that if you are looking to tack on another 3-4 year deal after this one, being a year younger doesn't hurt either.

What if the Indians offer was 5/44? That still more money than the Red Sox offered and now TWO more years guaranteed. This isn't tax analysis and advanced math.

If I was Victorino I'd have probably taken the 13 per deal as well.

That's not to say that Boston isn't a more desirable place to play for 99.9% of these guys. I'm sure that played into it also and if it was a "tie" I still thing the Red Sox win. But I don't think this was even a tie.
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Re: "Winning isn't Everything" - Shapiro

Unread postby peeker643 » Thu Dec 06, 2012 11:21 am

I'm taking the 4/44 when I look at the fact my OPS droped 150 points and my OPS+ went from 130 to 91. I'd hope to understand that as I get further into my 30's that my numbers are more likely to be at lifetime levels than prime year levels and I'll happily guarantee that $44m is there to cushion the fall back to earth.

While 13>11, so too is 44>39.

I'll eave it to the experts to determine whether Mass taxes and cost of living are higher than CLE taxes and cost of living to see where all that falls off.

Now, if I want to win and play for an org that will go out and get what's required to do that, I don't even consider 4/44 when the caller id shows a 216 area code.

motherscratcher wrote:
peeker643 wrote:
pup wrote:
peeker643 wrote:
pup wrote:Who exactly have we offered more money to an been turned down?


I can think of Victorino this year and Carlos Pena last year (as well as maybe Beltran last season too?).


Victorino is iffy at best. Total value was greater, but it was with an extra year I thought. So if he thinks he can get one more deal after these 3 years maybe he doesn't see it as being higher.

Thought Pena was so close in dollars it was negligible and probably equal of better in Tampa with the State Tax thing?


Victorino will be 35-36 when his 3-ear deal ends. If you're him and you want the most money and the most security then you're taking 4/44. He's not getting a bigger deal as a 35 or 36yr old.

And I'm not doing tax analysis and advanced math regarding these offers and deals. The Indians offered Pena more money. They offered Beltran more money and they offered Victorino more money.

They didn't want to come here. How the hell can you blame any of them, really.


I'm not sure you can really use that logic on the Victorino situation. All he would need ot make the cash even out after 3 years is a 1/5 deal. Nothing is assured but I'd think that was a pretty safe bet, unless he completely falls off a cliff talent wise. That's possible, but most of these guys don't end up in the major leagues with a lack of confidence in their own abilities.

Another thing to consider is that if you are looking to tack on another 3-4 year deal after this one, being a year younger doesn't hurt either.

What if the Indians offer was 5/44? That still more money than the Red Sox offered and now TWO more years guaranteed. This isn't tax analysis and advanced math.

If I was Victorino I'd have probably taken the 13 per deal as well.

That's not to say that Boston isn't a more desirable place to play for 99.9% of these guys. I'm sure that played into it also and if it was a "tie" I still thing the Red Sox win. But I don't think this was even a tie.
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Re: "Winning isn't Everything" - Shapiro

Unread postby motherscratcher » Thu Dec 06, 2012 11:53 am

I guess we'll just have to see what shakes out over the winter of 2015/16.

If Victorino plays in 2016 for more than $5 mil, you owe me a beer.

If he plays for less or is out of baseball...I guess I'll have to see if I can track you down some Zima on eBay or something.
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Re: "Winning isn't Everything" - Shapiro

Unread postby peeker643 » Thu Dec 06, 2012 11:58 am

motherscratcher wrote:I guess we'll just have to see what shakes out over the winter of 2015/16.

If Victorino plays in 2016 for more than $5 mil, you owe me a beer.

If he plays for less or is out of baseball...I guess I'll have to see if I can track you down some Zima on eBay or something.


One of us will be dead by then but I'll save this thread and look at it then.
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Re: "Winning isn't Everything" - Shapiro

Unread postby 1Perry » Thu Dec 06, 2012 12:03 pm

peeker643 wrote:I'm taking the 4/44 when I look at the fact my OPS droped 150 points and my OPS+ went from 130 to 91. I'd hope to understand that as I get further into my 30's that my numbers are more likely to be at lifetime levels than prime year levels and I'll happily guarantee that $44m is there to cushion the fall back to earth.


Everything else being equal, most everyone in his situation takes the 4/44. To be fair I look at the money I already have in the bank and tell myself that $39 million is more than I will ever spend the remainder of my life so do I want to spend another year losing 90+ games or do I want a reasonable chance at a ring?

That makes the choice an easy one. It's why Beltran took less money.
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