Cleveland Browns & The NFL

by **motherscratcher** » Sat Dec 01, 2012 12:49 pm

Apparently one of the Chiefs was involved in a murder suicide at the Chief's facility. Details are very sketchy this morning but it's all over twitter right now.

by **motherscratcher** » Sat Dec 01, 2012 12:53 pm

LB Jovan Belcher

by **Cerebral_DownTime** » Sat Dec 01, 2012 12:53 pm

I guess his name is Jovan Belcher.

Crazy story.

Media already prepping concussion stories........

by **Cerebral_DownTime** » Sat Dec 01, 2012 1:02 pm

Apparently the girlfriend is still alive but in critical condition.

by **skatingtripods** » Sat Dec 01, 2012 1:17 pm

Why can't people just shoot themselves instead of taking someone else out with them? Twitter also reporting that the couple has a young child, too. Some saying 2.5 months old, some saying 2 year old. Either way, seems like a small baby now having to be raised by somebody else. Unconfirmed by a legitimate source so far, though.

Yep, CDT, you know the concussion stories are being prepped as we speak.

by **LarsHancock** » Sat Dec 01, 2012 1:29 pm

Report is he shot himself in front of Romeo and Pioli, which is an additionally fucked up thing to do.

I've been seeing a lot of suicides lately, and I just don't get it. It is one of the most hateful things you can do to those that love you. I've had a lot of friends just devastated by the loss of loved ones for no good reason. I understand things can go wrong in life, but just throwing it all away... that's not the answer.

Prayers to his family and especially his child.

by **googleeph2** » Sat Dec 01, 2012 1:54 pm

LarsHancock wrote:Report is he shot himself in front of Romeo and Pioli, which is an additionally fucked up thing to do.

I've been seeing a lot of suicides lately, and I just don't get it. It is one of the most hateful things you can do to those that love you. I've had a lot of friends just devastated by the loss of loved ones for no good reason. I understand things can go wrong in life, but just throwing it all away... that's not the answer.

Prayers to his family and especially his child.

I would never advocate suicide, even the Kevorkian type. But agree: why does the shooter need to do max damage first? At least some people figure out how to disappear forever, or at least require minimal cleanup and trauma to others.

Some people are messed in the head, or the meds are messed up- I get that. But it's like my wife's coworker's husband. They raced to have as many kids as they could make in 5 yrs, and then he hangs himself, at home, for all to see. I can't even think about the kids. All the adults near the situation are calling him selfish, bastard, idiot, and worse. Don't know if he ever considered his legacy, but that is it.

by **motherscratcher** » Sat Dec 01, 2012 1:57 pm

I think the inescapable fact is that if people on the edge were able to think rationally about the consequences of their actions and its effect on their loved ones, they wouldn't be on that edge to begin with.

by **skatingtripods** » Sat Dec 01, 2012 1:58 pm

Seems this guy killed himself right in front of Romeo Crennel and Scott Pioli.

What an awful situation for everybody involved.

by **motherscratcher** » Sat Dec 01, 2012 2:00 pm

LarsHancock wrote:Report is he shot himself in front of Romeo and Pioli, which is an additionally fucked up thing to do.

I've been seeing a lot of suicides lately, and I just don't get it. It is one of the most hateful things you can do to those that love you. I've had a lot of friends just devastated by the loss of loved ones for no good reason. I understand things can go wrong in life, but just throwing it all away... that's not the answer.

Prayers to his family and especially his child.

It's crazy. Just in the last 5 or 6 months I've been affected a few times. I had a pretty good friend from high school who I hadn't seen in a few years hang himself in July. Also, I guy I was acquainted with in dental school committed suicide a few months back. He had 2 kids, one of them less than a year old IIRC.

by **bac5665** » Sat Dec 01, 2012 2:06 pm

Absolutely awful. Lars's post says what I would say, for the most part.

As someone who has known how much pain a suicidal person is in, I have nothing but sympathy for every party involved. A man was very sick and unfortunately, for whatever reason, he chose to hurt a huge number of people. There are no words.

His family and the Chiefs will be in my thoughts today.

by **FUDU** » Sat Dec 01, 2012 3:34 pm

motherscratcher wrote:I think the inescapable fact is that if people on the edge were able to think rationally about the consequences of their actions and its effect on their loved ones, they wouldn't be on that edge to begin with.

Bingo.

by **Triple-S** » Sat Dec 01, 2012 3:36 pm

um, wow.

the NFL needs to postpone the panthers/chiefs game.

this is messed.

prayers for the family, and his teammates.

by **motherscratcher** » Sat Dec 01, 2012 4:12 pm

Reports are that the child involved was a 3 month old girl. And Belcher shot his girlfriend right in front of her mother.

Good God, this story is just...

by **FUDU** » Sat Dec 01, 2012 4:14 pm

Hate to sound like a dick, but it just might be better for that kid that dad is gone, if he was that twisted to do all this in front of other close friends and family.

by **LarsHancock** » Sat Dec 01, 2012 5:07 pm

Now the report is Belcher snapped because his girlfriend came home late after attending a Trey Songz concert, whoever that is.

I'll reserve my opinion of this until the facts and details are known.

by **justmebd** » Sat Dec 01, 2012 8:31 pm

This is just crazy. How narcissistic to kill not only the mother, but yourself, leaving an infant child parentless. But, whatever, it's all about this person's one drama.

I feel incredibly bad for the child. There's a long road to climb for the rest of the family.

I live by a cemetary, I take my 2-year old for walks through there a few times a week. He loves to walk around there, talk to the stones, and stare at the big flag pole in the middle of the grounds. I frequently see some people all gathered around the same stone, put in summer of 2011.

I finally had a chance to speak to them, and the person they were mourning had committed suicide. They clearly still are not handling the suicide in any kind of fashion that would suggest they are moving on with their lives (The person was 22).

Senseless, absolutely senseless. And as a father of a young child (With another on the way), I can't fathom how anyone would do something like this.

And, CDT, those concussion stories already are being fired off left and right.

by **peeker643** » Sat Dec 01, 2012 11:11 pm

Wish Rae Carruth had gone this route.

by **leadpipe** » Sun Dec 02, 2012 2:34 pm

The reaction of the "NFL fraternity" is laughable to me.

Yea, Joe fan is suoopsed to (and should) reserve judgement until all the facts are out there, (Whether we should be privy to ALL facts is another argument) yet they can go on and on lauding a guy who did THIS.

Christ, if this was some random guy from Arkansas the general public would be mother f'ing him till the cows came home.

And mental illness is mental illness. There's much left to be figured out, but couldn't you argue we haven't figured out those of Sandusky's ilk either? Cause some that'll give this guy a pass want Sandusky in front of a firing squad.

The act was the act. Horrible, despicable, cowardice, sad.

Period.

Add another parentless 3 year old on the countries growing pile.

by **Larvell Blanks** » Sun Dec 02, 2012 3:07 pm

Funny how this was the second story behind the all important AFC playoff race on CBS's coverage.

At least CBS was able to bring humor into this story w/ Cowher stating that he wouldn't want anyone else other than Romeo coaching this game today for KC.

KC to have a moment of silence for victims of domestic violence prior to kickoff.

Just an screwed up situation in any case but agree w/ Lead, if this was John Doe from Aurora, he'd be villified. 'cause this guy could play ball, his brothers in arms will cut him some slack

by **Hikohadon** » Mon Dec 03, 2012 2:50 am

LarsHancock wrote:I've been seeing a lot of suicides lately, and I just don't get it. It is one of the most hateful things you can do to those that love you. I've had a lot of friends just devastated by the loss of loved ones for no good reason. I understand things can go wrong in life, but just throwing it all away... that's not the answer.

But for them, it was.

The reason it's such an appealing option to these people is exactly that they don't have to deal with the cleanup on aisle loved ones. You don't have to deal with anything ever again.

The height of selfishness, yes. Especially if you're taking someone out with you.

by rk » Mon Dec 03, 2012 12:19 pm

Most of you seem to miss the primary cause of a murder/suicide. It's the murder that triggers it. Then when they finally process the ramifications of murdering someone (living with the guilt, going to jail, etc.) they decide to take their own life.

And when someone is capable of killing themself they tend to not worry about the results of that particular action. Reminding them how much it will hurt their loved ones or the people who witness it is rarely an effective tactic to convince the person not to go through the act.

by **Larvell Blanks** » Mon Dec 03, 2012 12:41 pm

Bill Reiter wrote that the Chiefs players had this guy's jersey hanging in the locker room in memorium. I guess baby mama's are a dime a dozen and the murder of one of them has no lasting affect on anyone.

** edit - not that I'm surprised

by **LarsHancock** » Mon Dec 03, 2012 2:45 pm

Larvell Blanks wrote:Bill Reiter wrote that the Chiefs players had this guy's jersey hanging in the locker room in memorium. I guess baby mama's are a dime a dozen and the murder of one of them has no lasting affect on anyone.

** edit - not that I'm surprised

How many of those guys look in the mirror every night and wonder if they are going to be next?

They are violent men, raised (and often medicated) to be even more violent. They all have their demons - drinking, drugs, whores, whatever they may be - and all their heads are a little scrambled from the game that they play.

Who will wake up tomorrow not knowing what they did on Sunday like Belcher did a couple of weeks ago? Who will have their thinking and decisionmaking impaired, and turn to drugs and booze to rectify it, and then do something they regret for the rest of their life, as short as it may be?

In that locker room, it is hard to blame the man for being defective. They know that, they know the demons he ultimately lost the battle to. They fight them every day.

Are we as humans called to be better? Of course. And was it a despicable and cowardly thing that Belcher did? Of course. But there's a reason we don't send mentally ill people to the gas chamber in America. Whether Belcher was "ill" or just "defective" we'll never know.

by **mattvan1** » Mon Dec 03, 2012 2:53 pm

LarsHancock wrote: How many of those guys look in the mirror every night and wonder if they are going to be next?

They are violent men, raised (and often medicated) to be even more violent. They all have their demons - drinking, drugs, whores, whatever they may be - and all their heads are a little scrambled from the game that they play.

Who will wake up tomorrow not knowing what they did on Sunday like Belcher did a couple of weeks ago? Who will have their thinking and decisionmaking impaired, and turn to drugs and booze to rectify it, and then do something they regret for the rest of their life, as short as it may be?

In that locker room, it is hard to blame the man for being defective. They know that, they know the demons he ultimately lost the battle to. They fight them every day.

Are we as humans called to be better? Of course. And was it a despicable and cowardly thing that Belcher did? Of course. But there's a reason we don't send mentally ill people to the gas chamber in America. Whether Belcher was "ill" or just "defective" we'll never know.

Not sure where you are going here - but I would like to point out that just because guys play a violent game does not necessarily mean they are prone to violence off the field.

by **Larvell Blanks** » Mon Dec 03, 2012 3:18 pm

LarsHancock wrote:
Larvell Blanks wrote:Bill Reiter wrote that the Chiefs players had this guy's jersey hanging in the locker room in memorium. I guess baby mama's are a dime a dozen and the murder of one of them has no lasting affect on anyone.

** edit - not that I'm surprised

How many of those guys look in the mirror every night and wonder if they are going to be next?

They are violent men, raised (and often medicated) to be even more violent. They all have their demons - drinking, drugs, whores, whatever they may be - and all their heads are a little scrambled from the game that they play.

Who will wake up tomorrow not knowing what they did on Sunday like Belcher did a couple of weeks ago? Who will have their thinking and decisionmaking impaired, and turn to drugs and booze to rectify it, and then do something they regret for the rest of their life, as short as it may be?

In that locker room, it is hard to blame the man for being defective. They know that, they know the demons he ultimately lost the battle to. They fight them every day.

Are we as humans called to be better? Of course. And was it a despicable and cowardly thing that Belcher did? Of course. But there's a reason we don't send mentally ill people to the gas chamber in America. Whether Belcher was "ill" or just "defective" we'll never know.

The reason I brought this up was the effort that the organization made to ensure his name was not mentioned and their moment of silence for all victims of domestic violence. Seems like if they didn't want any type of "memorial" out there, knowing the media, national media, would see his jersey hanging in the locker room seems like someone wasn't paying attention. The players lost one of their own, I get that, but someone in that organization has to see that jersey and tell these guys it can't be visible. 2 people lost their lives in this and one was, what we presume, an innocent victim. A third was orphaned and denied the chance of knowing her parents.

by **Cerebral_DownTime** » Mon Dec 03, 2012 3:21 pm

You cannot tell them how they can and cannot mourn the loss of a friend.

by **Larvell Blanks** » Mon Dec 03, 2012 3:33 pm

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:You cannot tell them how they can and cannot mourn the loss of a friend.

Not saying they cannot mourn a friend/teammate. However with the public outcry of this guy murdering someone and the organization making every effort to make sure they don't publicly mourn Belcher, to have his jersey hanging in the locker room for all to see (national media) doesn't assist KC w/ their original intent. The players intent was not to glorify what he did, however in this day and age, perception will be peoples reality. Those in the minority who see it as the Chiefs players paying tribute to Belcher and his actions will crucify the entire organization regardless if they are wrong or right.

by **Cerebral_DownTime** » Mon Dec 03, 2012 3:57 pm

How does emptying his locker change the perception of anything?

by **Larvell Blanks** » Mon Dec 03, 2012 4:50 pm

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:How does emptying his locker change the perception of anything?

It doesn't but it doesn't help perception having his jersey hanging there as a rallying point for the team in a room that the media will be in after the game. Especially when those who are signing the checks have distanced themselves from the situation by not acknowledging Belcher. The last thing ownership and the FO probably wanted was for players paying tribute for him seeing they rejected the idea of a black sticker and/or armbands.

If he only took his own life I could see the tug of war, but by brutally taking the life of someone else it's tough to justify paying tribute to him, to me at least it is.

by **LarsHancock** » Mon Dec 03, 2012 4:57 pm

mattvan1 wrote:
LarsHancock wrote: How many of those guys look in the mirror every night and wonder if they are going to be next?

They are violent men, raised (and often medicated) to be even more violent. They all have their demons - drinking, drugs, whores, whatever they may be - and all their heads are a little scrambled from the game that they play.

Who will wake up tomorrow not knowing what they did on Sunday like Belcher did a couple of weeks ago? Who will have their thinking and decisionmaking impaired, and turn to drugs and booze to rectify it, and then do something they regret for the rest of their life, as short as it may be?

In that locker room, it is hard to blame the man for being defective. They know that, they know the demons he ultimately lost the battle to. They fight them every day.

Are we as humans called to be better? Of course. And was it a despicable and cowardly thing that Belcher did? Of course. But there's a reason we don't send mentally ill people to the gas chamber in America. Whether Belcher was "ill" or just "defective" we'll never know.

Not sure where you are going here - but I would like to point out that just because guys play a violent game does not necessarily mean they are prone to violence off the field.

Not really sure where I was going, or if I was going anywhere.

I was trying to explain the reason the players would memorialize their teammate, but not excuse it. And yeah, I understand that there are a lot of players who are gentle giants and have great hearts off the field. And there are a bunch who aren't and don't. Belcher was the latter, despite the perception he was able to deliver that he was the former.

And I do think this scares a lot of guys into wondering if they will indeed be next in snapping.

By the way, I do think it was insensitive to the murder victim to hang the jersey there. Would Carolina have hung Rae Carruth's jersey if he decided to kill himself instead of hide in a trunk (opening debate as to which would be a more cowardly act...)? Would every fan in Baltimore have a Ray Lewis jersey, and would they blow him constantly on TV if he had killed himself after the double murder he committed?

Wait, that last one is a bad example...

by **FUDU** » Mon Dec 03, 2012 5:10 pm

rk wrote:Most of you seem to miss the primary cause of a murder/suicide. It's the murder that triggers it. Then when they finally process the ramifications of murdering someone (living with the guilt, going to jail, etc.) they decide to take their own life.

And when someone is capable of killing themself they tend to not worry about the results of that particular action. Reminding them how much it will hurt their loved ones or the people who witness it is rarely an effective tactic to convince the person not to go through the act.

True, but don't most of them go down at the same time, and same place? This guy shot his GF with his mom in the house then got in a car and drove to Arrowhead Stadium, only to shoot himself. I mean can you picture him getting stopped at the last red light on the way saying to himself "Fuck!".

by **pup** » Mon Dec 03, 2012 5:16 pm

FUDU wrote:
rk wrote:Most of you seem to miss the primary cause of a murder/suicide. It's the murder that triggers it. Then when they finally process the ramifications of murdering someone (living with the guilt, going to jail, etc.) they decide to take their own life.

And when someone is capable of killing themself they tend to not worry about the results of that particular action. Reminding them how much it will hurt their loved ones or the people who witness it is rarely an effective tactic to convince the person not to go through the act.

True, but don't most of them go down at the same time, and same place? This guy shot his GF with his mom in the house then got in a car and drove to Arrowhead Stadium, only to shoot himself. I mean can you picture him getting stopped at the last red light on the way saying to himself "Fuck!".

Latest report says he did not kill himself until the police arrived. Which leads me to believe he shot himself because of what he had done, he did not shoot her because of what he was going to do.

by **FUDU** » Mon Dec 03, 2012 5:17 pm

Agreed pup.

by **Hikohadon** » Mon Dec 03, 2012 5:23 pm

Suddenly got an image of Jason Bourne in my head...

by **peeker643** » Mon Dec 03, 2012 5:46 pm

Bitch came home late from a hip-hop concert, fucking kid wouldn't stop crying and ...shit...no wonder he shot her nine times and saved one for himself. If he'd had a bigger magazine he'd have shot her 14 times and saved the last one. No playin' around.

Boys in the locker room know how it is.

Hang that fuckin' jersey up proud.

by **Fire Marshall Bill 2.0** » Mon Dec 03, 2012 7:35 pm

Lars might be confused abbout where he was going with his take but I wasn't

Its simple

It draws the focus of attention to the football player and not the victim

The right thing to do would have been to disallow cameras in the locker room

by **Cerebral_DownTime** » Mon Dec 03, 2012 8:12 pm

Honestly, who really gives a shit about the locker?

It has nothing to do with anything.

by **kman_holla8** » Mon Dec 03, 2012 11:00 pm

This had to have been building for awhile. He is 25 she is 22. They have a 3 month-old. Any man who had known a pregnant women, knows that there hormones change. It is tough to be around them sometimes when they filp to script on you because of hormones. So they had to have been fighting for awhile. Belcher just didn't buy a gun this week, so it is possible that it was pre-meditated. He is immature and doesn't understand or what to embrace being a father. The gf mother was probably called to watch the toddler. GF, goes to the concert, the club and the hotel lobby to kick it like she used to(with his money). She comes home, someone says something to talk smack. Belcher gets fed up with her grabs his gun and the rest is history.

Belcher “Was Dazed, Suffering From Short-Term Memory Loss” After Last Start; Alcohol, Painkillers, Domestic Tensions Played Role In Murder-Suicide

It almost plays itself out like a old Chappelle Show skit called "When keeping it real goes wrong."

by **mattvan1** » Tue Dec 04, 2012 12:07 am

kman_holla8 wrote:This had to have been building for awhile. He is 25 she is 22. They have a 3 month-old. Any man who had known a pregnant women, knows that there hormones change. It is tough to be around them sometimes when they filp to script on you because of hormones. So they had to have been fighting for awhile. Belcher just didn't buy a gun this week, so it is possible that it was pre-meditated. He is immature and doesn't understand or what to embrace being a father. The gf mother was probably called to watch the toddler. GF, goes to the concert, the club and the hotel lobby to kick it like she used to(with his money). She comes home, someone says something to talk smack. Belcher gets fed up with her grabs his gun and the rest is history.

Belcher “Was Dazed, Suffering From Short-Term Memory Loss” After Last Start; Alcohol, Painkillers, Domestic Tensions Played Role In Murder-Suicide

It almost plays itself out like a old Chappelle Show skit called "When keeping it real goes wrong."

So you, like the "friend" who was the source of Deadspin blog you quoted (without linking) essentially want to believe the whole thing was some big, explainable, misunderstanding and the victim "was the catalyst"? In other words the bitch deserved it?

Am I understanding your POV?

by **LarsHancock** » Tue Dec 04, 2012 12:34 pm

Well, the story is out there now. It was a domestic violence incident, nothing more, no matter how anyone wants to paint it.

He murdered her in cold blood, and then killed himself because of the guilt.

The bad news is the mother is dead and a baby is an orphan. The good news is one less piece of human shit walks the earth. Too bad he didn't reverse the order.

by **Hikohadon** » Tue Dec 04, 2012 12:43 pm

LarsHancock wrote:He murdered her in cold blood, and then killed himself because of the guilt.

Guilt/lack of a better option/impulse to escape his predicament.

I wouldn't even call this a suicide. Rather he died in his escape attempt.

by **LarsHancock** » Tue Dec 04, 2012 12:46 pm

Hikohadon wrote:
LarsHancock wrote:He murdered her in cold blood, and then killed himself because of the guilt.

Guilt/lack of a better option/impulse to escape his predicament.

I wouldn't even call this a suicide. Rather he died in his escape attempt.

Like a "homicide bombing" without the bomb

by **Hikohadon** » Tue Dec 04, 2012 1:24 pm

PS - There's probably a good likelihood that Belcher's mother will raise the baby, which in the end might be better for that kid's overall mental makeup than being raised by violent, arguing parents.

by **LarsHancock** » Tue Dec 04, 2012 1:57 pm

By the way, out of curiosity, how do you transact the roster spot here? Do you cut him? Waive him? Is he "terminated"? Injured Reserve -head (designated not to return)?

Is his contract guaranteed for the season or not? Is the contract covered by some sort of insurance, or not covered in Belcher's case?

The NFL isn't showing an official transaction here.

by **peeker643** » Tue Dec 04, 2012 2:07 pm

LarsHancock wrote:By the way, out of curiosity, how do you transact the roster spot here? Do you cut him? Waive him? Is he "terminated"? Injured Reserve -head (designated not to return)?

Is his contract guaranteed for the season or not? Is the contract covered by some sort of insurance, or not covered in Belcher's case?

The NFL isn't showing an official transaction here.

They should be able to clearly convince the NFL that Belcher's head is simply not in the right place at this point.

by **motherscratcher** » Tue Dec 04, 2012 3:05 pm

peeker643 wrote:
LarsHancock wrote:By the way, out of curiosity, how do you transact the roster spot here? Do you cut him? Waive him? Is he "terminated"? Injured Reserve -head (designated not to return)?

Is his contract guaranteed for the season or not? Is the contract covered by some sort of insurance, or not covered in Belcher's case?

The NFL isn't showing an official transaction here.

They should be able to clearly convince the NFL that Belcher's head is simply not in the right place at this point.

wow

by **Erie Warrior** » Tue Dec 04, 2012 3:41 pm

C'mon, that was good.

Why is Matt the only one that caught the dude upthread blaming the mother for getting killed on account of hormones?

Outlaw handguns, I know Peek agrees with me.

by **Hikohadon** » Tue Dec 04, 2012 3:48 pm

LarsHancock wrote:By the way, out of curiosity, how do you transact the roster spot here? Do you cut him? Waive him? Is he "terminated"? Injured Reserve -head (designated not to return)?

Is his contract guaranteed for the season or not? Is the contract covered by some sort of insurance, or not covered in Belcher's case?

The NFL isn't showing an official transaction here.

Waived - Extremely Sleepy

by **motherscratcher** » Tue Dec 04, 2012 3:50 pm

Erie Warrior wrote:C'mon, that was good.

Why is Matt the only one that caught the dude upthread blaming the mother for getting killed on account of hormones?

Outlaw handguns, I know Peek agrees with me.

Oh, I definitely laughed. It just didn't make me feel good about myself.

And I caught that too. I'm just trying not to scare away the new guy and couldn't think of anything to write.

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