The CPD 13

[dem425]

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ss ... er_default

No argument that I have ALWAYS been a police supporter. BUT, this will be a tough one to explain. Even if the two suspects were armed to the teeth, 137 rounds fired from police is going to take a lot of 'splaining........

Stay tuned................

[FUDU]

Yeah been hearing a lot of people questioning this one.

From one of the original reports:

According to East Cleveland Detective Sgt. Scott Gardner, it started Thursday night when two men shot at a police officer outside the Justice Center, leading to a chase from the city to East Cleveland.

http://videos.cleveland.com/plain-dealer/2012/11/2_dead_in_cleveland_police_cha.html

I would think that is a big key to this whole thing.

dem when this sort of thing goes down people are often led to believe "all bets are off" so to speak in terms of police pursuit and apprehension, IOW whatever means necessary. Can you shed any light on that?

[idoctribefan]

You lead police on a 25-minute high-speed chase, you deserve whatever it is that you get. And 137 rounds is only 10.7 rounds per cop. In the CCW class I took (taught by CPD cops) they said the average officer only hits his/her target 18% of the time in the line of duty. So if each cop took 10 shots, he/she is figuring that she's only gonna hit 1-2 of those 10. A report I heard said that the driver turned the car around and started driving it directly at a few of those officers. Keep firing at them until they stop attempting to run you down.

You don't wanna get shot?........pull over, roll your window down, and put your hands on the steering wheel.

[Cerebral_DownTime]

they said the average officer only hits his/her target 18% of the time in the line of duty.

lol.

Sounds like the Indians' 1st basemen.

[dem425]

FUDU:
If you mean that if a cop is shot, "all bets are off", I would say the ferocity in which police would actively pursue is limitless.

However, in this case, information (as far as reported) is way too sketchy. Initially, the cop (s) who reported the original "shooting" and subsequently initiated the pursuit will be grilled the most. What EXACTLY did they see which led to the pursuit?........If a cop was shot at, who is it, are they aware, did they call to report being shot at, was a weapon seen and description, etc...

All the others who joined in on the pursuit may have been operating under the pretext that they were chasing someone who tried to shoot a cop. Yet, they too will be grilled as to why they participated in this.

After 23 minutes of high speed pursuing you can bet that everyone is JACKED. The slightest move or action by a suspect may very well look like a continued act of aggression.

Positive GSR results will help to add credence to some of the story. But the 137 rounds fired by 13 officers will raise rightful scrutiny. Was anyone in charge of the scene?.....Usually, it's highest ranking officer.....Each officer that fired is going to be asked, "was your life or another's life in IMMINENT DANGER (which means that you or another are the innocent victim of an immediate attack which could result in serious bodily harm or death)

I hope that "mob mentality" was not at play here but I am afraid that of 137 shots fired, how many were "controlled fire, aimed at the center of an exposed mass intent on stopping a deadly force threat".

What about a dangerous crossfire situation?........Rule #4 of safe gun handling says "know your target AND the backstop". It's meant to stress that while you should know what you are shooting at, you MUST also know what lies beyond that target. Is there a potential for death or injury to innocent people?

AND don't forget at some point, the race card will also be played heavily. Out of the 13 cops, 12 are white and one is Hispanic.

These are the things I don't miss........And hopefully, one day, Cleveland Patrolman's Association (CPPA) will get a president that doesn't step on his dick in a pre-emptive move to get behind his men (think a prez like Bob Beck)......

Sorry, this was so long.......

[bookelly]

So it looks like that gunshot at the cops that started this was actually a backfire from an old car. That's some mighty fine police work there Lou.

But you watch, the cops involved will get a suspension with pay, and the victims families will be rich from the lawsuit...which comes out of your paycheck. Fucking Brilliant.

[jfiling]

FUDU:
If you mean that if a cop is shot, "all bets are off", I would say the ferocity in which police would actively pursue is limitless.

However, in this case, information (as far as reported) is way too sketchy. Initially, the cop (s) who reported the original "shooting" and subsequently initiated the pursuit will be grilled the most. What EXACTLY did they see which led to the pursuit?........If a cop was shot at, who is it, are they aware, did they call to report being shot at, was a weapon seen and description, etc...

All the others who joined in on the pursuit may have been operating under the pretext that they were chasing someone who tried to shoot a cop. Yet, they too will be grilled as to why they participated in this.

After 23 minutes of high speed pursuing you can bet that everyone is JACKED. The slightest move or action by a suspect may very well look like a continued act of aggression.

Positive GSR results will help to add credence to some of the story. But the 137 rounds fired by 13 officers will raise rightful scrutiny. Was anyone in charge of the scene?.....Usually, it's highest ranking officer.....Each officer that fired is going to be asked, "was your life or another's life in IMMINENT DANGER (which means that you or another are the innocent victim of an immediate attack which could result in serious bodily harm or death)

I hope that "mob mentality" was not at play here but I am afraid that of 137 shots fired, how many were "controlled fire, aimed at the center of an exposed mass intent on stopping a deadly force threat".

What about a dangerous crossfire situation?........Rule #4 of safe gun handling says "know your target AND the backstop". It's meant to stress that while you should know what you are shooting at, you MUST also know what lies beyond that target. Is there a potential for death or injury to innocent people?

AND don't forget at some point, the race card will also be played heavily. Out of the 13 cops, 12 are white and one is Hispanic.

These are the things I don't miss........And hopefully, one day, Cleveland Patrolman's Association (CPPA) will get a president that doesn't step on his dick in a pre-emptive move to get behind his men (think a prez like Bob Beck)......

Sorry, this was so long.......

FWIW, I appreciate that take. I just found out about this story, and was surprised to see this thread was up here.

[FUDU]

It would be very disappointing if this was all caused by a car backfire mistaken for a gunshot. I know anything is possible but IMO a police officer should be able to distinguish the difference 98% of the time.

The shooting on the west side in the summer of 2011 was a 1/4 mile from my house. I was awake (around 1 am) and I heard the gunshot, and the first thing that came to mind was that it was a gunshot (even in the middle of a neighborhood where it never happens), and not a extraordinary firework and not at all a car backfire. For whatever reason gunshots carry a very distinct sound that is hard to mistake.

My two cents.

[dem425]

I'm afraid this is going to be a very large turd in a very small punchbowl.......

[jfiling]

I'm afraid this is going to be a very large turd in a very small punchbowl.......

How do you mean? I'm thinking you have the best insight on all this, and I'm guessing you've been following the case. I'm just curious knowing your thinking in what's happened and what's being reported.

[dem425]

In best case scenario, the suspects are armed to the teeth, they shoot at a cop and the chase ensues.

1) 30 police cars in any kind of chase is problematic at best
2) 137 rounds fired indicate a control issue and a cross-fire issue. Who was in charge?.......Shit, Bonnie and Clyde were ambushed and just over a 100 rounds were fired at them, and Clyde had a BAR!
3) I've been led to believe that dispatch to district cars comunication is lacking in a crisis

The above would be challenging investigation in a perfect situation.

I know no more of the REAL details than anyone else who reads the paper but I do know some of the investigative questions that needs to be answered.

Also, I knew Mike McGrath (CPD Chief) back in the day and he was a cop's cop. Unfortunately, he has been turned into a politician and gave up his cop card. So when his first news statement is subliminally dotted with "oh shits", you know the scrutiny is going to be astronomical......

[jfiling]

In best case scenario, the suspects are armed to the teeth, they shoot at a cop and the chase ensues.

1) 30 police cars in any kind of chase is problematic at best
2) 137 rounds fired indicate a control issue and a cross-fire issue. Who was in charge?.......Shit, Bonnie and Clyde were ambushed and just over a 100 rounds were fired at them, and Clyde had a BAR!
3) I've been led to believe that dispatch to district cars comunication is lacking in a crisis

The above would be challenging investigation in a perfect situation.

I know no more of the REAL details than anyone else who reads the paper but I do know some of the investigative questions that needs to be answered.

Also, I knew Mike McGrath (CPD Chief) back in the day and he was a cop's cop. Unfortunately, he has been turned into a politician and gave up his cop card. So when his first news statement is subliminally dotted with "oh shits", you know the scrutiny is going to be astronomical......

Thanks for the reply. As this story progresses with more information being released (and I'll state up front I fear that it'll be years, if ever, before we hear the whole story), I'll be interested in your take on what's happened.