Padres interested in Ubaldo?/Hot Stove Talk

[NH Tribe Fan]

Seen on Rotoworld

http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2012/dec ... hing-wint/

[jerryroche]

Be a great way to dump two guys who apparently have no future with the Tribe, although it's interesting that San Diego thinks it might be able to do something with Jiminez that the Indians haven't. At this point, it doesn't really matter (much) what Antonetti gets in return, but maybe he can swing at least a halfway decent prospect or two for Choo.

At this point, the hope is that if management can throw enough prospects against the wall, some of them eventually might stick in the majors and actually become role players.

[leadpipe]

Wonder if the Padres still have thier old bullpen vehicle. You know the golf cart with the giant cap. Cause I'd be willing to flip Ubaldo for that thing - working or not.

[Spin]

I'll drive them to the airport.

Hell I'll drive them to San Diego.

[Dnthateonthepronk]

I'll drive them to the airport.

Hell I'll drive them to San Diego.

You are a better man, than I am sir, cause I wouldnt be able to make it without purposely running the car into a tree.

[skatingtripods]

I'll take whatever we can get. Let them try and figure him out.

I can't wait for the day when he gets through the season with a 3.95 ERA because he pitches in SD, SF, and LA for approximately 70-75% of his starts and everyone calls Antonetti an idiot.

[leadpipe]

I'll take whatever we can get. Let them try and figure him out.

I can't wait for the day when he gets through the season with a 3.95 ERA because he pitches in SD, SF, and LA for approximately 70-75% of his starts and everyone calls Antonetti an idiot.

There is nothing to figure out about the guy.

He never had command, guile, or any other bullshit. When he spent the majority of the game at 97 and movement he won. When he spends the majority at 93 he loses.

So unless the "figuring out" involves 4 or 5 MPH it ain't gonna work.

[skatingtripods]

There is nothing to figure out about the guy.

He never had command, guile, or any other bullshit. When he spent the majority of the game at 97 and movement he won. When he spends the majority at 93 he loses.

So unless the "figuring out" involves 4 or 5 MPH it ain't gonna work.

Well, I still think it's a mechanics issue that's causing the loss of velo. It could be the nagging injuries, specifically the one in his hip, but a guy doesn't just lose velo for no reason. It's not like he's old or worn out.

[hebner20]

Maybe he should try rubbing some clear cream on his arm. It seemed to work well for Barry.

[WiscTribeFan]

We traded our two top pitching prospects for UJ. There is no way on earth our FO is going to flip him for a bag of balls, which is all we can really expect to get for him at this point. If they didn't want him back, they could have simply declined his option and let him go.

Like it or not, I we've got him until his contract expires.

[Jumbo]

Convert to a catch-all fire sale thread?

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2012/12/indians-seeking-four-prospects-for-cabrera.html

Since they won't compete next year, then trading them all now is a lot more interesting then meandering aimlessly for three months before trying to make deals at the trade deadline. They are more likely to get a better package now than later, also. Cabrera is gone sooner or later anyway, so get it done.

[aldamon]

You are a better man, than I am sir, cause I wouldnt be able to make it without purposely running the car into a tree.

That'll only happen if Ubaldo is driving and trying to drive straight.

[Adverb Harry]

Convert to a catch-all fire sale thread?

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2012/12/indians-seeking-four-prospects-for-cabrera.html

Since they won't compete next year, then trading them all now is a lot more interesting then meandering aimlessly for three months before trying to make deals at the trade deadline. They are more likely to get a better package now than later, also. Cabrera is gone sooner or later anyway, so get it done.

On a related note, the Rangers have apparently made it known they're willing to deal Mike Olt in a trade. I don't think we match up too well with Texas--they already have a shortstop, unless they trade him for Upton, which they're rumored to be considering--but I would love to have that guy. I'd call it a good offseason if we could pick up Olt and two quality young pitchers. Of course, as long as I'm dreaming, I'd like Kate Upton to drive up to my house in my brand-new Porsche.

[Adverb Harry]

You are a better man, than I am sir, cause I wouldnt be able to make it without purposely running the car into a tree.

That'll only happen if Ubaldo is driving and trying to drive straight.

I think I'd run into the tree somewhere just outside of Denver, then let him go ask some of his former Rockies teammates if he could use their phone.

[peeker643]

Shane Victorino:

Jerry Crasnick of ESPN.com tweets Tuesday afternoon that the Indians have emerged as the "prime suitor" for the former Phillies all-star, and that there is momentum in such talks and a deal could be completed in Nashville before the end of the meetings.

[skatingtripods]

Ugh. If we could get Victorino for 2 years at a reasonable price, I could deal with it. Giving him 3/30 or 4/36-40, no thanks.

Guy can play, and would easily be the best LF we've had here since Marty Cordova's one lucky year in 2000, but I think he's trending towards the down side of his career. Which, coincidentally, is the type of free agent we go after.

He makes us better, there's no question. But that deal might look really bad by mid/late 2014.

[Jumbo]

Agree with ST, with the additional thought that signing Victorino just seems like a way to ignite some cash so that their 2013 payroll doesn't look quite as embarassing if they deal all of Perez/Choo/Cab/Ubaldo.

[peeker643]

Ugh. If we could get Victorino for 2 years at a reasonable price, I could deal with it. Giving him 3/30 or 4/36-40, no thanks.

Guy can play, and would easily be the best LF we've had here since Marty Cordova's one lucky year in 2000, but I think he's trending towards the down side of his career. Which, coincidentally, is the type of free agent we go after.

He makes us better, there's no question. But that deal might look really bad by mid/late 2014.

I think he's a better defensive CF than Brantley. Might be Brantley that moves to LF. Although you'll alienate Brantley further if you make that move. Not that Brantley isn't gone on the first train to Free Agentville anyway.

[WiscTribeFan]

Can someone please explain to me exactly what our strategy is at this point, and more importantly, why on earth anyone would sign with us?

We're looking at dealing talent like A-Cab, Choo, Perez and Masterson for young talent and prospects because we can't compete, but then we are rumored to be in on veteran guys like Vittorino and Youkilis. What's the point?

If I read the phrase after a player signs with someone else "...the Tribe was in on him..." one more time, I'm going to scream.

[skatingtripods]

Can someone please explain to me exactly what our strategy is at this point, and more importantly, why on earth anyone would sign with us?

Yeah, I really don't get this either. By the time they're in the hunt, Victorino's contract could really be an albatross. He's coming off one of his worst seasons, leading some to believe that his better days are behind him. He's never played in the American League and we really shouldn't be putting 10M of our 20-25M in him.

I don't think Victorino wants to play here. I don't know why we're in play this late into the process.

They wouldn't move Cabrera for a Major League pitcher and two prospects. They wanted a third prospect and the other team backed out. Yet, we want to sign a 32-year-old OFer to a three or four-year deal.

I think he's a better defensive CF than Brantley. Might be Brantley that moves to LF. Although you'll alienate Brantley further if you make that move. Not that Brantley isn't gone on the first train to Free Agentville anyway.

I don't think they move Brantley from CF. Victorino may be the better fielder, but his range has to be dwindling and LF isn't very difficult to play at the Jake.

[skatingtripods]

Red Sox reportedly offered Victorino 3/37.5. Means we're out of the bidding. Thank God. Did not want him.

[Jumbo]

Red Sox reportedly offered Victorino 3/37.5. Means we're out of the bidding. Thank God. Did not want him.

Victorino would have been David Dellucci 2.0. Actually, probably marginally better than that, and certainly better than whatever alternative they'd put up next year. At the same time, he wouldn't have been so much better than Ezequiel Carrera (or whoever) to justify 4/40 or whatever.

Again, I honestly think that signing Victorino, or Youkilis, or whatever other mid-range talent is little more than an effort to hope for 70-92 vs. 62-100 and to avoid the public embarassment of a sub-$30M payroll.

[skatingtripods]

Red Sox reportedly offered Victorino 3/37.5. Means we're out of the bidding. Thank God. Did not want him.

Victorino would have been David Dellucci 2.0. Actually, probably marginally better than that, and certainly better than whatever alternative they'd put up next year. At the same time, he wouldn't have been so much better than Ezequiel Carrera (or whoever) to justify 4/40 or whatever.

Again, I honestly think that signing Victorino, or Youkilis, or whatever other mid-range talent is little more than an effort to hope for 70-92 vs. 62-100 and to avoid the public embarassment of a sub-$30M payroll.

I believe that they truly saw value in Victorino. Switch hitter who could bat at the top or bottom of the order. Steals bases, has extra base hit power, solid outfielder. Seemingly has a relationship with Francona.

The problem is that they have to go a year longer and give more total money to win the bidding for him.

He's a much better player than Ezequiel Carrera. Is he 10 mil better, since Carrera would make the league minimum? I don't know. Probably pretty close to it. Doesn't mean he'll be a good player in year three or four of the deal. That's my problem with it.

[Adverb Harry]

Shapiro and Francona have been spotted in the Diamondbacks' "war room." Passan of Yahoo is claiming the D-Backs are exploring 3 and even 4 way trades involving Upton. Highly, highly doubt he'd be coming here (more like Texas), but I suppose we're involved in some convoluted way involving Cabrera. We'll see what happens, I suppose.

[skatingtripods]

Shapiro and Francona have been spotted in the Diamondbacks' "war room." Passan of Yahoo is claiming the D-Backs are exploring 3 and even 4 way trades involving Upton. Highly, highly doubt he'd be coming here (more like Texas), but I suppose we're involved in some convoluted way involving Cabrera. We'll see what happens, I suppose.

I think the Lee/Upton shit is just mindless chatter. I doubt it's been seriously discussed.

We're in there because the Diamondbacks want Choo and/or Cabrera, we'd like Kubel, or one (or more) of their young pitchers like Archie Bradley, Tyler Skaggs, Patrick Corbin, or the holy grail of Trevor Bauer.

The Indians and Diamondbacks match up really well, depending how all of the SS/OF players shake out. I think the market needs to be freed up by Upton being dealt and Greinke being signed. Then things should start happening.

[Jumbo]

or the holy grail of Trevor Bauer.

Thanks tripods. Just what I needed: an excuse to think we could trade Cab for Trevor Bauer + more.

EDIT: I completely missed this during the season (the Indians "effort" at the end of the year caused major baseball blackout)...but some people in the D-Backs org hate Bauer because he struggled in his first four big league starts and hates Obama? Um, OK then.

[skatingtripods]

or the holy grail of Trevor Bauer.

Thanks tripods. Just what I needed: an excuse to think we could trade Cab for Trevor Bauer + more.

EDIT: I completely missed this during the season (the Indians "effort" at the end of the year caused major baseball blackout)...but some people in the D-Backs org hate Bauer because he struggled in his first four big league starts and hates Obama? Um, OK then.

I don't think Bauer moves, but there's no reason to believe he's untouchable. He hasn't been to this point. That said, he doesn't move in a Cabrera deal. Cabrera + Choo, maybe.

[YouCanPutItOnTheBoardYES!]

Really happy that we didn't get Victorino for that price. He'd be an instant upgrade at any of our OF spots, but that's just too much money for a guy with his talent and age. One less suitor for Swisher/Ross as well.

On the firesale front, I read that the Mets are interested in Pestano. There were some rumblings of of PHI/CLE/ARZ 3-way deal with Upton and Lee involved but I think those were all bullshit.

Cabrera said he won't accept a trade to the Nats, Yankees, Red Sox, Mets, Giants, or Tigers. Not sure what that exactly means for us.

On a related note, the Rangers have apparently made it known they're willing to deal Mike Olt in a trade. I don't think we match up too well with Texas--they already have a shortstop, unless they trade him for Upton, which they're rumored to be considering--but I would love to have that guy. I'd call it a good offseason if we could pick up Olt and two quality young pitchers. Of course, as long as I'm dreaming, I'd like Kate Upton to drive up to my house in my brand-new Porsche.

Even if they trade Andrus they have Profar who is definitely MLB ready, but I do like Olt.

[YouCanPutItOnTheBoardYES!]

Also just read this on Twitter:

Jon Morosi ‏@jonmorosi
Justin Upton has drawn active interest from 3 teams today: Mariners, Rangers, Indians. @MLBONFOX

Buster Olney ‏@Buster_ESPN
The Arizona Diamondbacks have constructed a four-team deal that's currently dormant. Would net them Asdrubal Cabrera, if it's revitalized.

[dazindiansfanuk]

According to Ken Rosenthal on Twitter, the Tribe offered 4 years, $44m to Victorino........ madness!

[Dnthateonthepronk]

Can someone please explain to me exactly what our strategy is at this point, and more importantly, why on earth anyone would sign with us?

We're looking at dealing talent like A-Cab, Choo, Perez and Masterson for young talent and prospects because we can't compete, but then we are rumored to be in on veteran guys like Vittorino and Youkilis. What's the point?

If I read the phrase after a player signs with someone else "...the Tribe was in on him..." one more time, I'm going to scream.

It seems to me they are trying to rebuild and contend at the same time.

I would imagine in this instance that their thinking would be to sign victorino to replace Choo's offensive production, Perez in theory would be traded for a player or a FA would be signed to replace Asdrubal's offensive production, and Asdrubal would be traded for top tier pitching upgrades to strengthen the rotation to go with a bounce back year from Masterson who I get the sense that they believe will bounce back.

Thats the best I can gleam from their actions, because I cant find any other possible rational lines of thought to give guys like Victorino 3 or 4 years at the stage that this team is at right now.

[Dnthateonthepronk]

According to Ken Rosenthal on Twitter, the Tribe offered 4 years, $44m to Victorino........ madness!

The best/sad part is if thats true, the FO still wont be able to avoid a backlash from Joe Fan. They get pounded for not offering money, and now when they do (if they truly offered that much cash) they will get reamed for who they offered it to.


They cant win

[skatingtripods]

According to Ken Rosenthal on Twitter, the Tribe offered 4 years, $44m to Victorino........ madness!

Incredible. All the needs we have and we wanted to tie up 44M in a guy who will certainly be regressing by the end of year two, if not sooner.

I want to be happy that we're being aggressive and have a little bit of money to throw around, but not if we're going to spend it stupidly.

[leadpipe]

According to Ken Rosenthal on Twitter, the Tribe offered 4 years, $44m to Victorino........ madness!

Incredible. All the needs we have and we wanted to tie up 44M in a guy who will certainly be regressing by the end of year two, if not sooner.

I want to be happy that we're being aggressive and have a little bit of money to throw around, but not if we're going to spend it stupidly.

Let me see if I can articulate my feelings here.....

Anyone giving Shane Victorino 4 and 44 is fucking stupid.

Now, it is a clear lesson on where the Tribe is at in Free Agency. They are players for either A. An old veteran who has no place to go and wants one more contract or B. A marginal to good type player that will come here only if grossly overpaid.

We can see Victorino easily in category B.

[justmebd]

. . . AAAAANNNNDDD Victorino Signed with Boston.

Shapiro/Antonetti can't even attempt to overpay has-been players correctly. (Someone had to go there, may as well be me.)

[dazindiansfanuk]

Some traction building around a Cabrera to the D'Backs deal, ranging from multi-team blockbusters involving the Rangers and/or Rays to deals directly with the D'Backs for the likes of Bauer or Skaggs.

If you can get a top-tier arm like Bauer for Cabrera, you simply have to do that deal.

[Dnthateonthepronk]

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/

3,4 team trades , willing to spend 44 million, Gotta like the aggresiveness.

Seems like lots of interesting possibilities could happen today. Wonder if we should be hoping for a 3 tream trade, possibly could net a larger haul that way, plus recieve different prospects from different organizations, cause I mean how many times do all the prospects you reciev from one organization all work out. Hold on I hear Omar Minaya calling.

[skatingtripods]

Some traction building around a Cabrera to the D'Backs deal, ranging from multi-team blockbusters involving the Rangers and/or Rays to deals directly with the D'Backs for the likes of Bauer or Skaggs.

If you can get a top-tier arm like Bauer for Cabrera, you simply have to do that deal.

Even Skaggs was BA's 12th ranked prospect entering 2012. I'd be fine with him too.

[Adverb Harry]

I remain skeptical on any rumors coming to fruition until there's some real traction to them, but I'm loving one of the multi-team scenarios out there that nets us Bauer/and or Skaggs plus Olt. These multi-team proposals are inherently flimsy and collape easily, but that would be quite a major coup.

In any event, going to be quite disappointed in the direction of this team if they don't pull off a quality trade for Cabrera this week.

[peeker643]

Guy at work didi the math on the Ubaldo deal thus far.

Lose/lose but it's pretty damn even

Since the trade White and Pomeranz have combined to pitch 249.33 innings, gaining 8 wins and 23 losses, while posting a combined ERA of 5.70 and a combined WHIP of 1.59

Since the trade Jiminez has pitched 242 innings, gaining 13 wins and 21 losses, while posting an ERA of 5.32 and a WHIP of 1.57.

[Dnthateonthepronk]

I remain skeptical on any rumors coming to fruition until there's some real traction to them, but I'm loving one of the multi-team scenarios out there that nets us Bauer/and or Skaggs plus Olt. These multi-team proposals are inherently flimsy and collape easily, but that would be quite a major coup.

In any event, going to be quite disappointed in the direction of this team if they don't pull off a quality trade for Cabrera this week.

I would probabaly deal Choo and Perez in a 3 team deal as well if it could net us Skaggs, Bauer, and Olt. Sometime quality is better than quantity.

[WiscTribeFan]

Guy at work didi the math on the Ubaldo deal thus far.

Lose/lose but it's pretty damn even

Since the trade White and Pomeranz have combined to pitch 249.33 innings, gaining 8 wins and 23 losses, while posting a combined ERA of 5.70 and a combined WHIP of 1.59

Since the trade Jiminez has pitched 242 innings, gaining 13 wins and 21 losses, while posting an ERA of 5.32 and a WHIP of 1.57.

Factor in the difference in salary and I think it tips slightly in Colorado's favor. Not by much, though. Colorado also just flipped White to Houston for a pretty solid reliever, Wilton López.

[neoleo]

Guy at work didi the math on the Ubaldo deal thus far.

Lose/lose but it's pretty damn even

Since the trade White and Pomeranz have combined to pitch 249.33 innings, gaining 8 wins and 23 losses, while posting a combined ERA of 5.70 and a combined WHIP of 1.59

Since the trade Jiminez has pitched 242 innings, gaining 13 wins and 21 losses, while posting an ERA of 5.32 and a WHIP of 1.57.

Factor in the difference in salary and I think it tips slightly in Colorado's favor. Not by much, though. Colorado also just flipped White to Houston for a pretty solid reliever, Wilton López.

You also have to factor in who we could have had instead of Ubaldo. That's where we lose.

[phutatorius]

Value of the Ubaldo trade is TBD. But as things stand now, it's either a wash (if White and Pomeranz don't ever pan out), or we lost out in the deal (if they do). There's the possibility that 2013 is a Renaissance Year for Jimenez, with the result that we either make an improbable run at the playoffs or we're able to deal him at the deadline for some terrific prospect(s). I think that's a pretty slim possibility.

In the end, a deal made with the best intentions -- and maybe based a bit more on hope than a realistic review of where he was trending. But fine. We were in the mix, the team was on the upswing, and it was the first sign in a while that we were willing to take bold steps at the major league level to improve the team.

It's really everything else about this team that is soul-destroying. The 2011-2012 offseason supplied the brutal truth that free agents will take less money to go elsewhere, either because they're turning up their nose at Cleveland (the city) or because they don't think much of the front office and our opportunities to contend. This reinforced fan disinterest, even when the team played well at the beginning of the year: we looked at a floundering Ubaldo, and we came to realize that even if shrewd trades for prospects and player development fill in part of the puzzle, we're not going to be able to bring in major-league reinforcements except by trade, and teams don't blithely put good players on the trade market unless (1) they have a year left on their deal; or (2) the player is, like Jimenez, significantly flawed.

So we can sign nobody and we trade for upside. There was still hope, though, because of the room for growth among the players we had. Masterson, Cabrera, Tomlin, and Santana showed signs of promise, Kipper and Chiz were waiting in the wings, and just imagine what Choo could add in a year of full health. In practice, everybody either disappointed and/or took a giant step backward in development.

Now we grope blindly at free agents, while at the same time putting guys like Cabrera, Choo, and Pestano on the market. What does it signal to a guy like Victorino when we wave all these $$$ at him and talk fire sale-sounding trades? The plan is not coherent, unless you believe that the plan is to act like a player in the free-agent market, to appeal to fans, when really you don't have any real intention to land anybody. But then again, what fans are you going to win over with a bid on Shane Victorino?

Maybe the front office is ambivalent about what it has? Maybe Kipnis and Chisenhall are poised to make great leaps forward, and 2012 was an aberrational year for Santana, Cabrera and Masterson. Or maybe those 2011 performances were the aberration, Kipnis can't cut it over a full year, so we scrap and start over. I can understand why Antonetti wouldn't be able to commit to a plan, given the wild disparity in individual performances from one year to the next.

I dunno. Whatever "young core" we settle on, whether it's today's players or 2015's, we're not going to be in a position to round out the team with MLB-quality supplemental players with this level of payroll commitment. I wonder why I bother.

[leadpipe]

Guy at work didi the math on the Ubaldo deal thus far.

Lose/lose but it's pretty damn even

Since the trade White and Pomeranz have combined to pitch 249.33 innings, gaining 8 wins and 23 losses, while posting a combined ERA of 5.70 and a combined WHIP of 1.59

Since the trade Jiminez has pitched 242 innings, gaining 13 wins and 21 losses, while posting an ERA of 5.32 and a WHIP of 1.57.

Factor in the difference in salary and I think it tips slightly in Colorado's favor. Not by much, though. Colorado also just flipped White to Houston for a pretty solid reliever, Wilton López.

I think another factor is that one team is going to keep running a guy out there who is done, while one team will take there shots with a couple young guys, knowing they jettisoned a guy that couldn't help them anyomore.

In other words, Colo. can tweak the young guys - perhaps a move to the bully, trade etc.....all the while the Tribe will be running a hump out there every 5 to save face.

[motherscratcher]

NBC Sports has a post ip saying that the Indians are on the short list for Reynolds and Youk.

[skatingtripods]

NBC Sports has a post ip saying that the Indians are on the short list for Reynolds and Youk.

I'd much rather have Reynolds. Of course, it's a drop in the bucket at best, but it fills a gaping hole for this year.

Frankly, I'd try to give him 2/12 or 2/14. I don't want to go much longer than that, but he won't provide much of an impact this year because we won't be in the hunt (unless we address the six (or more) other major holes we have).

Worse comes to worse, he can also DH. I know he's a windmill, but 30 HR and 75 BB would make up for 190+ K. He's an adequate 1B, is a right handed bat, and it's been a long time since we had a full-time 1B with 30+ HR power.

[pup]

NBC Sports has a post ip saying that the Indians are on the short list for Reynolds and Youk.

I'd much rather have Reynolds. Of course, it's a drop in the bucket at best, but it fills a gaping hole for this year.

Frankly, I'd try to give him 2/12 or 2/14. I don't want to go much longer than that, but he won't provide much of an impact this year because we won't be in the hunt (unless we address the six (or more) other major holes we have).

Worse comes to worse, he can also DH. I know he's a windmill, but 30 HR and 75 BB would make up for 190+ K. He's an adequate 1B, is a right handed bat, and it's been a long time since we had a full-time 1B with 30+ HR power.

Reynolds over Youk? No effin way. Which hole does Reynolds fill that Youk does not? I was begging them to buy into a return to form from Youk last year and still think he brings a lot to the table.

[peeker643]

NBC Sports has a post ip saying that the Indians are on the short list for Reynolds and Youk.

I'd much rather have Reynolds. Of course, it's a drop in the bucket at best, but it fills a gaping hole for this year.

Frankly, I'd try to give him 2/12 or 2/14. I don't want to go much longer than that, but he won't provide much of an impact this year because we won't be in the hunt (unless we address the six (or more) other major holes we have).

Worse comes to worse, he can also DH. I know he's a windmill, but 30 HR and 75 BB would make up for 190+ K. He's an adequate 1B, is a right handed bat, and it's been a long time since we had a full-time 1B with 30+ HR power.

Reynolds over Youk? No effin way. Which hole does Reynolds fill that Youk does not? I was begging them to buy into a return to form from Youk last year and still think he brings a lot to the table.

Agreed. There is no choice there IMO. Much rather have Youkilis.

[Dnthateonthepronk]

Youk is the safer bet but Reynolds offers the higher upside. Although if you sign Swisher you kind of have to go for Youk, imagine the amount of wind that would be generated by a lineup with Swisher and Reynolds in it. Bet the Mayor of Cleveland would like it though, they could switch to wind powered energy and save the city a fortune. Might finally have that money to develop the Lake Front.