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PED Test

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PED Test

Unread postby motherscratcher » Thu Nov 15, 2012 11:30 am

We've discussed PED's here before and all have come to our own conclusions about what, if any, benefit they provide.

This is an average guy who gave them shot just to see what would happen. It's short, and interesting. I feel like I have a lot in common with this dude, especially when he talks about the mental aspect of exercise.

http://andyspoartsthoughts.tumblr.com/post/35721125879/peds-and-you-the-benefits-of-cheating

And yes. This absolutely does make me want to go out and buy some of this shit. Like, yesterday.
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Re: PED Test

Unread postby WiscTribeFan » Thu Nov 15, 2012 5:09 pm

Can you pick me up a bottle or two as well?
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Re: PED Test

Unread postby leadpipe » Thu Nov 15, 2012 5:38 pm

But... but...this wouldn't make this guy hit a baseball better....

Clearly this is a zillion dollar a year placebo business.

Worth guys over all sports mortaging their careers and reputations.
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Re: PED Test

Unread postby motherscratcher » Thu Nov 15, 2012 5:45 pm

Another thing LP...it sounds as if this is a more inocuous "low level" performance enhancer. This guy went out of his way to make sure that what he was taking was banned, but not illegal in any way. It's just an OTC suppliment from the sound of it. Can probably pick up a bottle at GNC.

So what does the real stuff do for you?

I'm serious. If I can motivate myself to make a commitment to fitness and eating healthier (as those things are irreplacable no matter what pill I might be taking), I can't think of a single reason NOT to utilize something like this to help me out.
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Re: PED Test

Unread postby WiscTribeFan » Thu Nov 15, 2012 5:52 pm

OK, as a chemist and pharmaceutical researcher, I do need to point out a few things.

But... but...this wouldn't make this guy hit a baseball better....

It might not help him, but it could help someone who already can hit a baseball well, especially with the supplements/drugs that increase muscle mass. Increased strength means increased bat speed. If you are already good at hitting a ball this means a warning track fly ball turns into a dinger.

The bug-a-boo with all supplements is that they are not regulated by the FDA. What this means is that the customer has no real way of knowing what's really in there. Many an athlete has tested positive for a banned substance that they unwittingly took in a supposedly natural supplement. One supplement that was touted as being a 'natural Viagra', was tested and actually did have Viagra in the mixture.

Back to this supplement. No-one really knows what's in there, and Ephedra is one chemical step away from meth. There's a reason it's regulated. This guy never talked about any side effects. Did his hunger decrease? Is he sleeping less? Does he feel wired all the time? Did he need to increase the amount he took over time to get the same effects?

Here's a real good question: Has he tried to stop taking the supplement and if so, what happened? There's a good possibility that he might start to go through some type of withdrawal syndrome.

It all sounds great. There was a recent article on aging men taking testosterone, legally, as a way to lose weight, gain lost muscle mass and increase their sex drive. There's a down side to everything you put in your body.

Buyer beware.
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Re: PED Test

Unread postby leadpipe » Thu Nov 15, 2012 5:54 pm

motherscratcher wrote:Another thing LP...it sounds as if this is a more inocuous "low level" performance enhancer. This guy went out of his way to make sure that what he was taking was banned, but not illegal in any way. It's just an OTC suppliment from the sound of it. Can probably pick up a bottle at GNC.

So what does the real stuff do for you?

I'm serious. If I can motivate myself to make a commitment to fitness and eating healthier (as those things are irreplacable no matter what pill I might be taking), I can't think of a single reason NOT to utilize something like this to help me out.


The single reason probably would be that about everything on the shelves at GNC while not illegal, is not regulated by the FDA.

Lotta dead wrestlers from the hard stuff, lotta skin cancer popping up form those "safe" tanning booths, and I would assume many athletes from this time frame will go the way of Ken Caminiti. Lotta cats thought shit from GNC that contained aphedra was great too - until guys started dropping.

Thing about it is, for the average guy, fitness and eating right is all you need. And it works. It's just hard to do.
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Re: PED Test

Unread postby WiscTribeFan » Thu Nov 15, 2012 5:55 pm

motherscratcher wrote:Another thing LP...it sounds as if this is a more inocuous "low level" performance enhancer. This guy went out of his way to make sure that what he was taking was banned, but not illegal in any way. It's just an OTC suppliment from the sound of it. Can probably pick up a bottle at GNC.

So what does the real stuff do for you?

I'm serious. If I can motivate myself to make a commitment to fitness and eating healthier (as those things are irreplacable no matter what pill I might be taking), I can't think of a single reason NOT to utilize something like this to help me out.


You mean like the two soldiers who died during basic training while taking this supplement?
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Re: PED Test

Unread postby leadpipe » Thu Nov 15, 2012 5:56 pm

WiscTribeFan wrote:OK, as a chemist and pharmaceutical researcher, I do need to point out a few things.

But... but...this wouldn't make this guy hit a baseball better....

It might not help him, but it could help someone who already can hit a baseball well, especially with the supplements/drugs that increase muscle mass. Increased strength means increased bat speed. If you are already good at hitting a ball this means a warning track fly ball turns into a dinger.

The bug-a-boo with all supplements is that they are not regulated by the FDA. What this means is that the customer has no real way of knowing what's really in there. Many an athlete has tested positive for a banned substance that they unwittingly took in a supposedly natural supplement. One supplement that was touted as being a 'natural Viagra', was tested and actually did have Viagra in the mixture.

Back to this supplement. No-one really knows what's in there, and Ephedra is one chemical step away from meth. There's a reason it's regulated. This guy never talked about any side effects. Did his hunger decrease? Is he sleeping less? Does he feel wired all the time? Did he need to increase the amount he took over time to get the same effects?

Here's a real good question: Has he tried to stop taking the supplement and if so, what happened? There's a good possibility that he might start to go through some type of withdrawal syndrome.

It all sounds great. There was a recent article on aging men taking testosterone, legally, as a way to lose weight, gain lost muscle mass and increase their sex drive. There's a down side to everything you put in your body.

Buyer beware.


I was being sarcastic with that quote, cause that's always the most aggravating and misguided argument concerning baseball and steroids.
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Re: PED Test

Unread postby WiscTribeFan » Thu Nov 15, 2012 5:58 pm

I was being sarcastic with that quote, cause that's always the most aggravating and misguided argument concerning baseball and steroids.

I missed that due to my ephedra fueled high...
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Re: PED Test

Unread postby motherscratcher » Thu Nov 15, 2012 6:30 pm

In ephedra's defense...

Back in my younger days I'd occasionally take a ripped fuel when I was going out. As I recall, it never really made me feel any different, but damn, I could just keep going all night without getting worn out or too drunk to pack it in. I remember (vaguely) a weekend in Morgantown where the bars stayed open until 5AM or some shit. That was a good weekend.

Good times, if you survive, I guess.
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Re: PED Test

Unread postby peeker643 » Thu Nov 15, 2012 6:55 pm

motherscratcher wrote:In ephedra's defense...

Back in my younger days I'd occasionally take a ripped fuel when I was going out. As I recall, it never really made me feel any different, but damn, I could just keep going all night without getting worn out or too drunk to pack it in. I remember (vaguely) a weekend in Morgantown where the bars stayed open until 5AM or some shit. That was a good weekend.

Good times, if you survive, I guess.


That would have been a far more enjoyable anecdote had you died.
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Re: PED Test

Unread postby swerb » Thu Nov 15, 2012 8:08 pm

I'll fund the cost of the first 100 pills if moscratch agrees to eat like 6 a day and if he agrees to post 30-40 times a day in the forums. Give our readers an inside day by day look at someone going through the process.

Since when is the FDA a respected institution? Im sure the shit is fine moscratch.
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Re: PED Test

Unread postby pod2dawg » Thu Nov 15, 2012 8:49 pm

Ah the old ephedra clone , DMAA. If you have coronary artery disease the vasconstrictive properties of this product...can kill you..especially if it combined with caffeine. If you have some congenital coronary anomoly previously undetected....say aortic stenosis...it can kill you. High blood pressure?......it can kill you.

But shit you could choke on a chicken wing too & I eat them all the time.

You are 100% correct regular guys only need good diet & exercise.

IF your cholesterol is fine, don't have hypertension, and echocardiogram is clear....fuck it take swerbs offer.
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Re: PED Test

Unread postby Erie Warrior » Thu Nov 15, 2012 9:16 pm

Ephedra is FANTASTIC. This shit was the cat's pajamas before the ephedra ban
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Re: PED Test

Unread postby pup » Thu Nov 15, 2012 11:30 pm

Ahhhh. Ripped fuel.

Saw more than a couple of dudes end up green after playing about 8 softball games while throwing those things down like sunflower seeds in the day.
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Re: PED Test

Unread postby 7foot3 » Fri Nov 16, 2012 6:55 pm

leadpipe wrote:But... but...this wouldn't make this guy hit a baseball better....

Clearly this is a zillion dollar a year placebo business.

Worth guys over all sports mortaging their careers and reputations.



The blogger said

"There is one distinction that I have to be make, however. These drugs would not suddenly make me into a baseball player. I am not going to become Barry Bonds because I started taking a banned substance. I can’t recognize pitches. In the batting cages, I can’t hit anything faster than 50 miles per hour. On the mound, I still can’t find the plate and I can’t throw all that fast either. There is still a lot of work that goes into honing your body and becoming an athlete. It’s not easy work. The athlete still has to put in the time and effort in the gym to become great."

Nobody has said these are placebos or couldn't help make you faster and stronger as long as you put the gym time in. You've built up quite the strawman here. But, there is a big difference between being a workout warrior and being able to lay off the curve and square up a fastball. We still are unable to properly evaluate how much better an actual ballplayer (and not a weightlifter) PEDs can make you, and need to hold off on the wailing about records being broken until we do understand (and realize that steroids have been around since the 50s, and people were experimenting with other foreign substances that they believed to help them even before that).
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Re: PED Test

Unread postby leadpipe » Fri Nov 16, 2012 10:08 pm

7foot3 wrote:
leadpipe wrote:But... but...this wouldn't make this guy hit a baseball better....

Clearly this is a zillion dollar a year placebo business.

Worth guys over all sports mortaging their careers and reputations.



The blogger said

"There is one distinction that I have to be make, however. These drugs would not suddenly make me into a baseball player. I am not going to become Barry Bonds because I started taking a banned substance. I can’t recognize pitches. In the batting cages, I can’t hit anything faster than 50 miles per hour. On the mound, I still can’t find the plate and I can’t throw all that fast either. There is still a lot of work that goes into honing your body and becoming an athlete. It’s not easy work. The athlete still has to put in the time and effort in the gym to become great."

Nobody has said these are placebos or couldn't help make you faster and stronger as long as you put the gym time in. You've built up quite the strawman here. But, there is a big difference between being a workout warrior and being able to lay off the curve and square up a fastball. We still are unable to properly evaluate how much better an actual ballplayer (and not a weightlifter) PEDs can make you, and need to hold off on the wailing about records being broken until we do understand (and realize that steroids have been around since the 50s, and people were experimenting with other foreign substances that they believed to help them even before that).


Here we go again. Like clockwork. The condescending strawman and wailing.....

The first two lines of your "blogger" explain just how dim the argument referred to at the top is. "These drugs would not make me into a baseball player."

No shit.

Only problem is we're talking about guys taking PED's....that are already baseball players. And we're not talking about some magic dust you throw on a lazy ass ballplayer. That paragraphs lumps in every hump with guys who are already at a certain skill level, and are ready to work - and by the way, I would think that the lot of guys that are willing to take a chance with these things, are gonna go ahead and do the work.

And yes, steroids have been around a long time, but the recent "steroid era" has obvious things one can recognize. Mickey Mantle didn't go up a cap size nor have the players of his generation totally rewrite the aging scale. Perhaps if guys in the 70's started having their primes last well into their thirties we'da questioned that as well.

Look, I don't KNOW much technically. I don't KNOW if OJ killed his wife. I don't KNOW if there was really a man on the moon. I don't KNOW that the reason the Tour de France mountain stages the last few years are significantly slower because of the drug crackdown.

And I don't KNOW that if you took a good baseball player and afforded him an ability to get bigger, stronger and faster that it would make him better, but I could make a pretty strong guess - using not only common sense, but what has gone on in front of my eyes in this sport - and about every other one.
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Re: PED Test

Unread postby 7foot3 » Sat Nov 17, 2012 9:04 pm

leadpipe wrote:Here we go again. Like clockwork. The condescending strawman and wailing.....

The first two lines of your "blogger" explain just how dim the argument referred to at the top is. "These drugs would not make me into a baseball player."

No shit.

Only problem is we're talking about guys taking PED's....that are already baseball players. And we're not talking about some magic dust you throw on a lazy ass ballplayer. That paragraphs lumps in every hump with guys who are already at a certain skill level, and are ready to work - and by the way, I would think that the lot of guys that are willing to take a chance with these things, are gonna go ahead and do the work.

And yes, steroids have been around a long time, but the recent "steroid era" has obvious things one can recognize. Mickey Mantle didn't go up a cap size nor have the players of his generation totally rewrite the aging scale. Perhaps if guys in the 70's started having their primes last well into their thirties we'da questioned that as well.

Look, I don't KNOW much technically. I don't KNOW if OJ killed his wife. I don't KNOW if there was really a man on the moon. I don't KNOW that the reason the Tour de France mountain stages the last few years are significantly slower because of the drug crackdown.

And I don't KNOW that if you took a good baseball player and afforded him an ability to get bigger, stronger and faster that it would make him better, but I could make a pretty strong guess - using not only common sense, but what has gone on in front of my eyes in this sport - and about every other one.


Don't build up a strawman, and you won't get called out for it. Seems pretty simple to me.

Right, a lot of these guys are willing to do the work necessary, even before PEDs. And a lot of these guys are incredibly good, even without PEDs. You still haven't demonstrated that taking PEDs makes you a better ballplayer.

How do we know that guys in the past didn't go up a cap size, and how do we know how increased cap size correlates to increased ability? You're assuming a lot of things you don't actually know. Again, no one is saying they can't make you better, but we have to be a bit more precise than where we're at.
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Re: PED Test

Unread postby leadpipe » Sat Nov 17, 2012 9:27 pm

7foot3 wrote:
leadpipe wrote:Here we go again. Like clockwork. The condescending strawman and wailing.....

The first two lines of your "blogger" explain just how dim the argument referred to at the top is. "These drugs would not make me into a baseball player."

No shit.

Only problem is we're talking about guys taking PED's....that are already baseball players. And we're not talking about some magic dust you throw on a lazy ass ballplayer. That paragraphs lumps in every hump with guys who are already at a certain skill level, and are ready to work - and by the way, I would think that the lot of guys that are willing to take a chance with these things, are gonna go ahead and do the work.

And yes, steroids have been around a long time, but the recent "steroid era" has obvious things one can recognize. Mickey Mantle didn't go up a cap size nor have the players of his generation totally rewrite the aging scale. Perhaps if guys in the 70's started having their primes last well into their thirties we'da questioned that as well.

Look, I don't KNOW much technically. I don't KNOW if OJ killed his wife. I don't KNOW if there was really a man on the moon. I don't KNOW that the reason the Tour de France mountain stages the last few years are significantly slower because of the drug crackdown.

And I don't KNOW that if you took a good baseball player and afforded him an ability to get bigger, stronger and faster that it would make him better, but I could make a pretty strong guess - using not only common sense, but what has gone on in front of my eyes in this sport - and about every other one.


Don't build up a strawman, and you won't get called out for it. Seems pretty simple to me.

Right, a lot of these guys are willing to do the work necessary, even before PEDs. And a lot of these guys are incredibly good, even without PEDs. You still haven't demonstrated that taking PEDs makes you a better ballplayer.

How do we know that guys in the past didn't go up a cap size, and how do we know how increased cap size correlates to increased ability? You're assuming a lot of things you don't actually know. Again, no one is saying they can't make you better, but we have to be a bit more precise than where we're at.


Like my post says, yeah, technically I guess I don't know. But I'm not oblivious to what I see.

Not quite sure how something that can make one bigger, stronger and faster doesn't equate to better in the realm of athletic competition. This is quite different than saying it'll make an average joe big league, but being bigger, stronger and faster in gonna improve you. If you choose to believe this isn't true, great, but I'm not sure what's unclear about it.

And by the way, substititute Barry Bonds cap size for his body transformation. You wanna tell me guys in the 50's thru 80's had these transformations - in their thirties? Really?

As I mentioned above, we'll have a pretty good idea when a good number of the main "suspects" in all of this start doing the Albert Belle limp through life and start dieing off Caminiti style. Cause if you don't think that's comin' in the next 10-20 years....this just in, it is.
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Re: PED Test

Unread postby FUDU » Sun Nov 18, 2012 9:22 pm

I definitely think mo should take some PEDs.

Post enhancing drugs.
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Re: PED Test

Unread postby motherscratcher » Sun Nov 18, 2012 9:24 pm

FUDU wrote:I definitely think mo should take some PEDs.

Post enhancing drugs.


You mean like Extenze?
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Re: PED Test

Unread postby peeker643 » Mon Nov 19, 2012 11:53 am

motherscratcher wrote:
FUDU wrote:I definitely think mo should take some PEDs.

Post enhancing drugs.


You mean like Extenze?


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Re: PED Test

Unread postby 7foot3 » Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:21 pm

leadpipe wrote:Like my post says, yeah, technically I guess I don't know. But I'm not oblivious to what I see.

Not quite sure how something that can make one bigger, stronger and faster doesn't equate to better in the realm of athletic competition. This is quite different than saying it'll make an average joe big league, but being bigger, stronger and faster in gonna improve you. If you choose to believe this isn't true, great, but I'm not sure what's unclear about it.

And by the way, substititute Barry Bonds cap size for his body transformation. You wanna tell me guys in the 50's thru 80's had these transformations - in their thirties? Really?

As I mentioned above, we'll have a pretty good idea when a good number of the main "suspects" in all of this start doing the Albert Belle limp through life and start dieing off Caminiti style. Cause if you don't think that's comin' in the next 10-20 years....this just in, it is.



But you do understand the difference between "this seems likely to me" and "this is a fact", right? Because there is a world of difference, and it's essential in the discussion.

You know what else is going to improve your game? Willie Mays' red juice. Or simply tylenol and caffeine the morning after a rough night of partying. Sure, killing that headache won't make average job a big leaguer, but give something to that guy who has already trained a lot, and you'll see results.

Alex Sanchez and Rafael Betancourt were busted for juicing. Body transformation does nothing but work as confirmation bias. There are olympic athletes who got huge while passing rigorous drug tests because the way people weight train has changes dramatically since the 50s.

I'm not going to respond to people getting hurt or dying until it actually happens. It seems only fair to deal in the reality that we actually have, and not just leadpipe's presumptions.

Look, I understand why it makes sense to you. But if this was the new epidemic that it's being treated as, we would have more definitive results than "maybe you would be a better ballplayer" and allegations about hat sizes.
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Re: PED Test

Unread postby pup » Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:13 pm

Like a run of guys hitting more home runs in shorter periods of times than ever before in the history of the game? Then those numbers falling back to "normal" levels?

I know one story does not make a case. But this is the truest of true. Playing college ball, at a high enough level where this stuff goes on, there was a teammate whose freshman year was a solid contact hitter but nothing special overall. Came back his sophomore year...larger. Of course it was due to a needle to help his workout. And dude might have won a very good league's triple crown if not for 2 factors. Our home field was the size of Rhode Island and he couldn't keep himself in the lineup because he wasn't smart enough to stretch all those new muscles out properly.

I have no idea what kind of proof you are looking for. Or if there is anything out there. But you can believe this...that shit helps. A lot.
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Re: PED Test

Unread postby mattvan1 » Mon Nov 19, 2012 11:06 pm

motherscratcher wrote:In ephedra's defense...

Back in my younger days I'd occasionally take a ripped fuel when I was going out. As I recall, it never really made me feel any different, but damn, I could just keep going all night without getting worn out or too drunk to pack it in. I remember (vaguely) a weekend in Morgantown where the bars stayed open until 5AM or some shit. That was a good weekend.

Good times, if you survive, I guess.


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Re: PED Test

Unread postby leadpipe » Mon Nov 19, 2012 11:17 pm

pup wrote:Like a run of guys hitting more home runs in shorter periods of times than ever before in the history of the game? Then those numbers falling back to "normal" levels?

I know one story does not make a case. But this is the truest of true. Playing college ball, at a high enough level where this stuff goes on, there was a teammate whose freshman year was a solid contact hitter but nothing special overall. Came back his sophomore year...larger. Of course it was due to a needle to help his workout. And dude might have won a very good league's triple crown if not for 2 factors. Our home field was the size of Rhode Island and he couldn't keep himself in the lineup because he wasn't smart enough to stretch all those new muscles out properly.

I have no idea what kind of proof you are looking for. Or if there is anything out there. But you can believe this...that shit helps. A lot.


Which feeds into one of my overall points. If it didn't help, why mortage a future to do it.

I dealt with several college players during the course of those years, and the percentage of guys they thought were using was high. We're talkin' Atlantic 10 conference and the like. And the transformations were pretty evident.

But again, talkin' in circles. Pup brings up a good question - just exactly what kind of proof are you looking for? And I'll bet there's much you're walking around with in life you feel is fact, but it really isn't, based on the conversation here.
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Re: PED Test

Unread postby 7foot3 » Thu Nov 29, 2012 2:18 am

pup wrote:Like a run of guys hitting more home runs in shorter periods of times than ever before in the history of the game? Then those numbers falling back to "normal" levels?

I know one story does not make a case. But this is the truest of true. Playing college ball, at a high enough level where this stuff goes on, there was a teammate whose freshman year was a solid contact hitter but nothing special overall. Came back his sophomore year...larger. Of course it was due to a needle to help his workout. And dude might have won a very good league's triple crown if not for 2 factors. Our home field was the size of Rhode Island and he couldn't keep himself in the lineup because he wasn't smart enough to stretch all those new muscles out properly.

I have no idea what kind of proof you are looking for. Or if there is anything out there. But you can believe this...that shit helps. A lot.


But this "run of guys" is pretty vague. When exactly was this run of home runs, and when did it fall back to "normal"? Home runs per year peaked in 2001, and declined some before testing was set up. When testing was in place, home runs still stayed fairly level for a couple years, before dipping in 2010-11, and they were back up a tick this year.

Not to mention there could be plenty of other factors that mean more home runs - smaler parks, livelier balls, a couple expansions happening close together. All of these things happened, and would lead to more home runs too. And, again, you're ignoring the Sanchezes and Betancourts. Where do they fall in line with this "steroids=home runs" argument?
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