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Great Q&A With Shapiro

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Re: Great Q&A With Shapiro

Unread postby motherscratcher » Sun Oct 28, 2012 11:24 am

Ok, but you still haven't said who. Who is the "big stick" available for Lee? What proven major league talent would he have brought? It just doesn't happen.

Maybe they could have held on to him and traded him in the offseason or at the next all star break. Maybe they would have gotten a better haul. But don't act like you know they wld have for sure, and honest.y all evidence is to the contrary because the same guy WAS traded again and brought no more and probably less than was brought to the Indians.

Unless the plan was to keep him for a year and a half and delay the obvious rebuild that was going on.

Or sign m for 8 years $160 mil?

Again, what was the great alternative. Besides the Big Stick you seem so sure was t there to be had.
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Re: Great Q&A With Shapiro

Unread postby Bigfist » Sun Oct 28, 2012 12:23 pm

I'll be interested in seeing who the Indians get for Asdrubal this off season. I am sure he will be traded...Pluto makes a case for it in his column today, and that usually means that he has been fed information from the front office making the case.
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Re: Great Q&A With Shapiro

Unread postby motherscratcher » Sun Oct 28, 2012 12:41 pm

Read Al's Lazy Sunday. I'm halfway through it and it's exceptional. Al is SO much better at organizing and saying a lot of the things that I think


I agree with the premise behind the Ubaldo deal, as the Indians had a chance to make a push for the playoffs and needed an ace. But the execution was beyond terrible, as the team acquired a player who was and remains broken, for whatever reason(s). 
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Re: Great Q&A With Shapiro

Unread postby justmebd » Sun Oct 28, 2012 12:42 pm

motherscratcher wrote:Ok, but you still haven't said who. Who is the "big stick" available for Lee? What proven major league talent would he have brought? It just doesn't happen.

Maybe they could have held on to him and traded him in the offseason or at the next all star break. Maybe they would have gotten a better haul. But don't act like you know they wld have for sure, and honest.y all evidence is to the contrary because the same guy WAS traded again and brought no more and probably less than was brought to the Indians.

Unless the plan was to keep him for a year and a half and delay the obvious rebuild that was going on.

Or sign m for 8 years $160 mil?

Again, what was the great alternative. Besides the Big Stick you seem so sure was t there to be had.

You're overthinking this now. ;-) ;) :wink:

I'm speaking purely in hypotheticals because this is now three years gone. Who gives a shit, other than to keep beating the dead horse that is the "Shapiro is a moron" argument.
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Re: Great Q&A With Shapiro

Unread postby skatingtripods » Sun Oct 28, 2012 3:55 pm

justmebd wrote:Cliff Lee Trade: Indefensible on just about every level. Cy Young talent needs to be traded for proven major league talent, not prospects. This is what I believe and is not a debatable point to me. Couple this with the penny-wise, pound-foolish approach, and it's just exasperating to hear him (again) try and defend it. By trading two Cy Young award winners away in two years, it told the fanbase "Fuck you, we quit."


Roy Halladay, who is as good or better than Cliff Lee, also got a package of prospects who haven't really done shit. The Phillies system was widely-respected by a lot of baseball execs, and NONE of their prospects have really worked out.

I'm sorry, but I can't blame Shapiro for that. Pretty of well-respected scouts had LaPorta ranked top 30 in all of baseball.

Just hard to project minor leaguers without ML experience. Can't fault Shapiro for that. LaPorta, and LaPorta alone, has to make adjustments.

They can't commit 55% of the payroll to Sabathia and Lee. What the fuck is so hard to understand about that?
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Re: Great Q&A With Shapiro

Unread postby justmebd » Sun Oct 28, 2012 3:57 pm

skatingtripods wrote:
justmebd wrote:Cliff Lee Trade: Indefensible on just about every level. Cy Young talent needs to be traded for proven major league talent, not prospects. This is what I believe and is not a debatable point to me. Couple this with the penny-wise, pound-foolish approach, and it's just exasperating to hear him (again) try and defend it. By trading two Cy Young award winners away in two years, it told the fanbase "Fuck you, we quit."


Roy Halladay, who is as good or better than Cliff Lee, also got a package of prospects who haven't really done shit. The Phillies system was widely-respected by a lot of baseball execs, and NONE of their prospects have really worked out.

I'm sorry, but I can't blame Shapiro for that. Pretty of well-respected scouts had LaPorta ranked top 30 in all of baseball.

Just hard to project minor leaguers without ML experience. Can't fault Shapiro for that. LaPorta, and LaPorta alone, has to make adjustments.

They can't commit 55% of the payroll to Sabathia and Lee. What the fuck is so hard to understand about that?

I never said Sabathia.
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Re: Great Q&A With Shapiro

Unread postby pup » Sun Oct 28, 2012 4:59 pm

skatingtripods wrote:
justmebd wrote:Cliff Lee Trade: Indefensible on just about every level. Cy Young talent needs to be traded for proven major league talent, not prospects. This is what I believe and is not a debatable point to me. Couple this with the penny-wise, pound-foolish approach, and it's just exasperating to hear him (again) try and defend it. By trading two Cy Young award winners away in two years, it told the fanbase "Fuck you, we quit."


Roy Halladay, who is as good or better than Cliff Lee, also got a package of prospects who haven't really done shit. The Phillies system was widely-respected by a lot of baseball execs, and NONE of their prospects have really worked out.

I'm sorry, but I can't blame Shapiro for that. Pretty of well-respected scouts had LaPorta ranked top 30 in all of baseball.

Just hard to project minor leaguers without ML experience. Can't fault Shapiro for that. LaPorta, and LaPorta alone, has to make adjustments.

They can't commit 55% of the payroll to Sabathia and Lee. What the fuck is so hard to understand about that?


Actually, in 3 of the last 4, they would have been better off running those 2 out the 70 times and taking your chances on the other 92.
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Re: Great Q&A With Shapiro

Unread postby gotribe31 » Sun Oct 28, 2012 6:30 pm

motherscratcher wrote:Read Al's Lazy Sunday. I'm halfway through it and it's exceptional. Al is SO much better at organizing and saying a lot of the things that I think


I agree with the premise behind the Ubaldo deal, as the Indians had a chance to make a push for the playoffs and needed an ace. But the execution was beyond terrible, as the team acquired a player who was and remains broken, for whatever reason(s). 


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Re: Great Q&A With Shapiro

Unread postby Dnthateonthepronk » Sun Oct 28, 2012 6:58 pm

motherscratcher wrote:
I think he's right about those trades. Al has broken down those trades in threads around here a few times. The Indians didn't make out terribly in the Lee trade considering what the exact same player brought other teams in trades. Just because we don't think we got enough doesn't mean that there was something better available or something better WOULD BECOME available at some point.



Never said there was something better, or would have been. Im not expecting a Colon deal, I understand the aspects and risks that go into trading.

My point is the player he evaluated as the centerpiece, he was wrong on. (As well as the players in the Lee trade.) I understand they might have taken the best packages they could have gotten but that doens't mean they are good trades. They were not right on the players they identified as the players they wanted. So ultimately the trades are not wins. I just dont wanna see him try and defend them when the results are not positive. You made 2 bad trades. Just say that, stop trying to deflect by pointing out other peoples mistakes, i.e the Johan Santanna comment.

Again I like Shapiro, he has made other good trades, I would argue he has more hits than misses, he just has 2 catastrophic misses, I just wanna see him own up. He seemed to in other areas of the interview.
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Re: Great Q&A With Shapiro

Unread postby skatingtripods » Sun Oct 28, 2012 8:44 pm

justmebd wrote:
skatingtripods wrote:
justmebd wrote:Cliff Lee Trade: Indefensible on just about every level. Cy Young talent needs to be traded for proven major league talent, not prospects. This is what I believe and is not a debatable point to me. Couple this with the penny-wise, pound-foolish approach, and it's just exasperating to hear him (again) try and defend it. By trading two Cy Young award winners away in two years, it told the fanbase "Fuck you, we quit."


Roy Halladay, who is as good or better than Cliff Lee, also got a package of prospects who haven't really done shit. The Phillies system was widely-respected by a lot of baseball execs, and NONE of their prospects have really worked out.

I'm sorry, but I can't blame Shapiro for that. Pretty of well-respected scouts had LaPorta ranked top 30 in all of baseball.

Just hard to project minor leaguers without ML experience. Can't fault Shapiro for that. LaPorta, and LaPorta alone, has to make adjustments.

They can't commit 55% of the payroll to Sabathia and Lee. What the fuck is so hard to understand about that?

I never said Sabathia.



By trading two Cy Young award winners away in two years, it told the fanbase "Fuck you, we quit."


What other Cy Young winner are you talking about then?
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Re: Great Q&A With Shapiro

Unread postby justmebd » Sun Oct 28, 2012 9:32 pm

skatingtripods wrote:
justmebd wrote:
skatingtripods wrote:
justmebd wrote:Cliff Lee Trade: Indefensible on just about every level. Cy Young talent needs to be traded for proven major league talent, not prospects. This is what I believe and is not a debatable point to me. Couple this with the penny-wise, pound-foolish approach, and it's just exasperating to hear him (again) try and defend it. By trading two Cy Young award winners away in two years, it told the fanbase "Fuck you, we quit."


Roy Halladay, who is as good or better than Cliff Lee, also got a package of prospects who haven't really done shit. The Phillies system was widely-respected by a lot of baseball execs, and NONE of their prospects have really worked out.

I'm sorry, but I can't blame Shapiro for that. Pretty of well-respected scouts had LaPorta ranked top 30 in all of baseball.

Just hard to project minor leaguers without ML experience. Can't fault Shapiro for that. LaPorta, and LaPorta alone, has to make adjustments.

They can't commit 55% of the payroll to Sabathia and Lee. What the fuck is so hard to understand about that?

I never said Sabathia.



By trading two Cy Young award winners away in two years, it told the fanbase "Fuck you, we quit."


What other Cy Young winner are you talking about then?

You stopped reading.

I also said I knew Sabathia wasn't going to stay, but that the Cliff Lee situation could have been made to work. By automatically giving up on the Lee situation, that was the "Fuck you, I quit."

To my original point: I see Shapiro as a guy who can't see the Forest For the Trees, has made HORRIBLE personnel evaluation decisions on a more than consistent basis, sucks at drafting, and failed to talk his owner out of making a really bad deal (Lee).

No deal involving Lee was going to be a good deal unless two out of the three players became MVP-Caliber. Since the liklihood of that happening was miniscule, we go back to what I said again: This team lost more money by trading Lee than they would have if they just had paid him.

A good GM (which Shapiro is not) would have convinced the owners to take the longview and take the short-term hit for the long-term gain. Instead they got short-term relief in their salary budget and exchanged it for long-term overall budget and PR issues and shortfalls, or "challenges" if you're Shapiro.

For Context, consider what John Hart did the year Manny and Thome left. Manny's agent made it known Manny was going to the highest bidder, period. The Indians made an offer and the Red Sox outbid us, no one got mad, end of story.

The Indians made Thome an offer, he went to Philly, and ended up looking like the bad guy in the deal.

The end result was we lost two great bats, but no one held it against the FO or called them cheap.

Shapiro/Antonetti/Dolans simply are not that smart, and they don't make good enough decisions to whether these inevitable roster turnovers. (And the Dolans never should have bought this team, they can't really afford to have two bad seasons in a row, their modest budget can't handle that kind hit). :group:
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Re: Great Q&A With Shapiro

Unread postby motherscratcher » Sun Oct 28, 2012 10:16 pm

So basically you are leaving these options:

1. Extend Lee 8 years $160 mil

Or

2. Let Lee walk after his contract with no compensation (other than a compensatory pick)

Because one of those is impossible and the other is stupid.

I'm assuming you are arguing for the stupid approach because then nobody would have "blamed them" for Lee walking. And more fans would have gone to the games. Or something.

Put me squarely in the group that is happy Shapiro and the FO doesn't gve two shits what some fans might "blame them" for.
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Re: Great Q&A With Shapiro

Unread postby justmebd » Sun Oct 28, 2012 10:24 pm

motherscratcher wrote:So basically you are leaving these options:

1. Extend Lee 8 years $160 mil

Or

2. Let Lee walk after his contract with no compensation (other than a compensatory pick)

Because one of those is impossible and the other is stupid.

I'm assuming you are arguing for the stupid approach because then nobody would have "blamed them" for Lee walking. And more fans would have gone to the games. Or something.

Put me squarely in the group that is happy Shapiro and the FO doesn't gve two shits what some fans might "blame them" for.

You forgot the "Try to resign Lee, fail, trade him in 2010."

That's what I would've done. Trading him in 2009 did nothing but give the fanbase a Giant Middle Finger.
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Re: Great Q&A With Shapiro

Unread postby motherscratcher » Sun Oct 28, 2012 11:08 pm

But trading him when they did is completely justifiable. It accelerated the rebuild they were CLEARLY embarking on and theoretically trade him at his highest value.
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Re: Great Q&A With Shapiro

Unread postby Bigfist » Mon Oct 29, 2012 5:05 am

motherscratcher wrote:But trading him when they did is completely justifiable. It accelerated the rebuild they were CLEARLY embarking on and theoretically trade him at his highest value.


Yes, and now we are in ANOTHER rebuild, just three years later. How can anyone judge this as a success?

This thread, alas, has degenerated into just what I thought it would...the Shapiro allies on here defending him, and the Shapiro detractors criticizing him. This sort of thread has come up about fifty times over the last few years. No player has changed his stripe. I wonder why we needed another thread just to battle over Shapiro.
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Re: Great Q&A With Shapiro

Unread postby motherscratcher » Mon Oct 29, 2012 7:29 am

Did someone here call it a success and I missed it?

And you're right. It's funny how a thread about Shapiro devolved into a discussion about Shapiro.
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Re: Great Q&A With Shapiro

Unread postby justmebd » Mon Oct 29, 2012 8:01 am

motherscratcher wrote:But trading him when they did is completely justifiable. It accelerated the rebuild they were CLEARLY embarking on and theoretically trade him at his highest value.

I disagree with that, but we're just going in circles here.

Everything from here on out goes into pure hypotheticals.
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Re: Great Q&A With Shapiro

Unread postby leadpipe » Mon Oct 29, 2012 8:53 am

As far as rebuilds go, that's another thing that is MLB's fault, not necessarily any small market GM. A small market ain't kkeping the same team for eight years if they hit on every single draft pick and free agent decision.

If and when things turn. and they start going well, there's a rebuild a few short years away.

History shows us this over and over and.....
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Re: Great Q&A With Shapiro

Unread postby Bigfist » Mon Oct 29, 2012 9:22 am

motherscratcher wrote:Did someone here call it a success and I missed it?

And you're right. It's funny how a thread about Shapiro devolved into a discussion about Shapiro.


Anyone who continually defends Shapiro must think there is some element of success...otherwise, why not just pay a monkey or elephant to do the job? Might be a bit cheaper and save Dolan some money.

And as far as the discussion goes..just shocking. I mean..I thought you might actually say something negatively about Shapiro..JOKE. Nothing has changed on this list...you and tripods are the defense attorneys and Perry1 and Pup are the prosecutors. The same discussion, with the same opinions, have come up again and again and again and again. How many times do we have to beat a dead horse? Or as you might say...how many FUCKING times do we have to beat a dead horse? I'm done.
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Re: Great Q&A With Shapiro

Unread postby motherscratcher » Mon Oct 29, 2012 10:20 am

Bigfist wrote:
motherscratcher wrote:Did someone here call it a success and I missed it?

And you're right. It's funny how a thread about Shapiro devolved into a discussion about Shapiro.


Anyone who continually defends Shapiro must think there is some element of success...otherwise, why not just pay a monkey or elephant to do the job? Might be a bit cheaper and save Dolan some money.

And as far as the discussion goes..just shocking. I mean..I thought you might actually say something negatively about Shapiro..JOKE. Nothing has changed on this list...you and tripods are the defense attorneys and Perry1 and Pup are the prosecutors. The same discussion, with the same opinions, have come up again and again and again and again. How many times do we have to beat a dead horse? Or as you might say...how many FUCKING times do we have to beat a dead horse? I'm done.


Well, I defend him in the sense that I want the criticism (which is warrented) to at least be fair and logical. I just think that the "Shap shouldn't have traded Lee and/or he should have gotten 2 all stars and a big stick" agrument is neither of those things.

I hear you on the discussion going in circles over and over and over again. That much is true. But during the offseason, when your team has had the same front office for a decade there are only so many different discussions to be had. And a recently posted interview with the President of the team that all brings us here is newsworthy and worth talking about on this site. And if you didn't think so you were free to skip the thread.

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Re: Great Q&A With Shapiro

Unread postby skatingtripods » Mon Oct 29, 2012 10:48 am

Bigfist wrote:Anyone who continually defends Shapiro must think there is some element of success...otherwise, why not just pay a monkey or elephant to do the job? Might be a bit cheaper and save Dolan some money.


Trading scabs like Eduardo Perez and Ben Broussard for Shin-Soo Choo and Asdrubal Cabrera is a success. Trading papier-mache Mark DeRosa for Chris Perez is a success. It was horrible trading Victor, but they got two pretty decent arms out of him. I could go on about the individual successes that Shapiro has had in player acquisition. Problem is that these individual successes have not added up to wins, in large part, because they can't fill holes with free agents and they have gotten rather unlucky. The guys that have signed have underperformed dramatically.

Again, at some point, doesn't somebody blame the players rather than Shapiro? I know they don't have any PLAYAS, as LP would say, but, they aren't signing guys because they think they're going to suck.

Have there been major mistakes? Yes. We'll see how they handle three of them on Wednesday with the Hafner/Hernandez/Jimenez option decisions.

Shapiro (and Antonetti) have the task of finding the right players at the right cost. Once they make their decisions, however they make them, the player must perform. The Shapiro haters NEVER give him credit for what he has done right. Ultimately, it is a results business and I understand that. But, what those two have to work with, an undesirable location for free agents, and a lot of unfortunate injuries, they really haven't done all that bad.
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Re: Great Q&A With Shapiro

Unread postby 1Perry » Mon Oct 29, 2012 5:22 pm

motherscratcher wrote:
Bigfist wrote:
motherscratcher wrote:Did someone here call it a success and I missed it?

And you're right. It's funny how a thread about Shapiro devolved into a discussion about Shapiro.


Anyone who continually defends Shapiro must think there is some element of success...otherwise, why not just pay a monkey or elephant to do the job? Might be a bit cheaper and save Dolan some money.

And as far as the discussion goes..just shocking. I mean..I thought you might actually say something negatively about Shapiro..JOKE. Nothing has changed on this list...you and tripods are the defense attorneys and Perry1 and Pup are the prosecutors. The same discussion, with the same opinions, have come up again and again and again and again. How many times do we have to beat a dead horse? Or as you might say...how many FUCKING times do we have to beat a dead horse? I'm done.


Well, I defend him in the sense that I want the criticism (which is warrented) to at least be fair and logical. I just think that the "Shap shouldn't have traded Lee and/or he should have gotten 2 all stars and a big stick" agrument is neither of those things.

I hear you on the discussion going in circles over and over and over again. That much is true. But during the offseason, when your team has had the same front office for a decade there are only so many different discussions to be had. And a recently posted interview with the President of the team that all brings us here is newsworthy and worth talking about on this site. And if you didn't think so you were free to skip the thread.

:thumb up: on lumping Pup in with 1Perry instead of LP. I'm sure he appreciated it and I personally loved that! :lmfao:

And you're right about my profanity. It is excessive and for that I appologize. But, like Ralphie's dad, I feel it's my true medium and the only thing I've ever been good at. ;-) ;) :wink:

:cheers:


That Shapiro admits that Antonetti completely failed in his previous job but promoted him anyway to run the entire team is indeed a legitimate point in showing that his decision making is less than impressive.

You have avoided that point twice now.
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Re: Great Q&A With Shapiro

Unread postby 1Perry » Mon Oct 29, 2012 5:41 pm

skatingtripods wrote:
Bigfist wrote:Anyone who continually defends Shapiro must think there is some element of success...otherwise, why not just pay a monkey or elephant to do the job? Might be a bit cheaper and save Dolan some money.


Trading scabs like Eduardo Perez and Ben Broussard for Shin-Soo Choo and Asdrubal Cabrera is a success. Trading papier-mache Mark DeRosa for Chris Perez is a success. It was horrible trading Victor, but they got two pretty decent arms out of him. I could go on about the individual successes that Shapiro has had in player acquisition. Problem is that these individual successes have not added up to wins, in large part, because they can't fill holes with free agents and they have gotten rather unlucky. The guys that have signed have underperformed dramatically.

Again, at some point, doesn't somebody blame the players rather than Shapiro? I know they don't have any PLAYAS, as LP would say, but, they aren't signing guys because they think they're going to suck.

Have there been major mistakes? Yes. We'll see how they handle three of them on Wednesday with the Hafner/Hernandez/Jimenez option decisions.

Shapiro (and Antonetti) have the task of finding the right players at the right cost. Once they make their decisions, however they make them, the player must perform. The Shapiro haters NEVER give him credit for what he has done right. Ultimately, it is a results business and I understand that. But, what those two have to work with, an undesirable location for free agents, and a lot of unfortunate injuries, they really haven't done all that bad.


People can point to successes with any GM. Has there been bad luck and some players that should have performed but didn't? Sure but nobody really expected Sizemore to be the answer in left field and they had to know that Damon was not going to make a come back.

Willingham would have cost an insignificant amount more than they paid Sizemore/Damon.

There would be no question mark this year still in left.

It will be interesting to see if they make the same mistake with Hafner.

Hopefully Francona will have some real input.
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Re: Great Q&A With Shapiro

Unread postby motherscratcher » Mon Oct 29, 2012 5:45 pm

Please refer me to the link where Shapiro says something about Antonetti being a complete failure at his previous job, which I believe was Assistant GM. I don't remember that.

I do, however, remember him turning down at least 1 GM position for another club (I can't remember which one) and his name being on the short list for most GM openings the last 5 years or so.
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Re: Great Q&A With Shapiro

Unread postby 7foot3 » Wed Oct 31, 2012 2:41 am

motherscratcher wrote:Please refer me to the link where Shapiro says something about Antonetti being a complete failure at his previous job, which I believe was Assistant GM. I don't remember that.

I do, however, remember him turning down at least 1 GM position for another club (I can't remember which one) and his name being on the short list for most GM openings the last 5 years or so.


He's mixing up Mirabelli with Antonetti, which only shows how much he is actually paying attention. And Antonetti was wanted by the Cardinals, which i would think that most people here agree is a pretty smart franchise.

And wasn't the Lee situation exactly the same as Sabathia? He was dead set on testing free agency, meaning there was no way the Indians were going to win the bidding war. It absolutely sucks that two Cy Young winners happened to be up for free agency so close together, but there's nothing the team can do about it when guys want to test their value on the FA market (and yet we're still going to hear the same complaints when Choo leaves). What I want to know is what happened to the coaches that helped develop those two into Cy Young talents, and why aren't they working with Masterson and Jimenez 24/7?
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Re: Great Q&A With Shapiro

Unread postby leadpipe » Wed Oct 31, 2012 8:58 am

7foot3 wrote:
motherscratcher wrote:Please refer me to the link where Shapiro says something about Antonetti being a complete failure at his previous job, which I believe was Assistant GM. I don't remember that.

I do, however, remember him turning down at least 1 GM position for another club (I can't remember which one) and his name being on the short list for most GM openings the last 5 years or so.


He's mixing up Mirabelli with Antonetti, which only shows how much he is actually paying attention. And Antonetti was wanted by the Cardinals, which i would think that most people here agree is a pretty smart franchise.

And wasn't the Lee situation exactly the same as Sabathia? He was dead set on testing free agency, meaning there was no way the Indians were going to win the bidding war. It absolutely sucks that two Cy Young winners happened to be up for free agency so close together, but there's nothing the team can do about it when guys want to test their value on the FA market (and yet we're still going to hear the same complaints when Choo leaves). What I want to know is what happened to the coaches that helped develop those two into Cy Young talents, and why aren't they working with Masterson and Jimenez 24/7?


In all likelyhood, those coaches never existed.

Jiminez going from an "easy" 96-97 a few years back, to 94 ish and throwing breaking balls to the 8 hitter isn't a coaching issue. And there's yet to be a coach anywhere that'll get him to command.

There's isn't a coach with magic dust that is gonna get Masty's delivery less appealing to left-handers. (or better command, for that matter)

Cliff Lee woulda grown up here or there, a la Curt Schilling. Nobody coached him to get his life straightened out.

And CC is, and always will be CC.

There's a handful of coaches around the league given credit for helping guys with an adjustment here or there, but for the love of Leo Mazzone, the hammer don't build the house.

If MLB players answered honestly to the following question, What have you been taught by a coach after the age of 20 that has had a significant postive effect on your (insert hitting or pitching)?, the great majority would be scrambling for an answer.
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Re: Great Q&A With Shapiro

Unread postby 7foot3 » Wed Oct 31, 2012 1:35 pm

leadpipe wrote:In all likelyhood, those coaches never existed.

Jiminez going from an "easy" 96-97 a few years back, to 94 ish and throwing breaking balls to the 8 hitter isn't a coaching issue. And there's yet to be a coach anywhere that'll get him to command.

There's isn't a coach with magic dust that is gonna get Masty's delivery less appealing to left-handers. (or better command, for that matter)

Cliff Lee woulda grown up here or there, a la Curt Schilling. Nobody coached him to get his life straightened out.

And CC is, and always will be CC.

There's a handful of coaches around the league given credit for helping guys with an adjustment here or there, but for the love of Leo Mazzone, the hammer don't build the house.

If MLB players answered honestly to the following question, What have you been taught by a coach after the age of 20 that has had a significant postive effect on your (insert hitting or pitching)?, the great majority would be scrambling for an answer.


I'm not going to pretend there is magic dust that will fix everything, but CC and Lee didn't start off as polished major league pitchers, and if they were working on Masterson's and Jimenez's mechanics this year, they went backwards. Not to mention that the rest of the rotation took a step back too. At some level, part of this has to be on the coaching staff. If just Jimenez is screwed up, then yeah, he busted. But when the whole rotation falls apart at once?
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Re: Great Q&A With Shapiro

Unread postby Kingpin74 » Wed Oct 31, 2012 3:17 pm

Can someone post the link to Andrew Friedman and Billy Beane's interviews to explain their 58 excuses for their teams sucking the last 5 years? No? They don't have any? As Shooter McGavin would say, "they were too busy winning." I know it's not easy to succeed in a small market but I just don't care anymore about breaking down their incompetence. The A's and Rays both play in tiny markets with crappy TV deals, in long outdated, horribly located stadiums that were bad to begin with, are the red-headed sports stepchildren in their own cities, and play in divisions with two $150MM+ competitors. They still contend and they still win because they have great people in charge. It's not easy, but it can be done and I find myself less and less inclined to spend significant time and money on a team that views winning as some impossible tightrope act and just shoots for mediocrity. I love the Indians and I love baseball but if they want to keep hoping for that magical season every 10 years while accepting being buried by June 1 during the other years when things go slightly wrong, fan interest will continue to reflect that.

I think Shapiro did a genuinely good job in building the '05 and '07 teams but in the here and now, it's a bad baseball team that will continue to be a bad baseball team for the next 3-4 years unless major money is spent on quick fixes. And we all know the likelihood of that. The blame obviously isn't all on the front office but Dolan is what he is at this point and when you combine his Scrooge payroll with moves like the Ubaldo deal (where you essentially go all in despite having 3 giant holes on your roster and no money to spend), you end up with a 68 win team and terrible attendance.

Sure, their "approach" might be correct but where does that get you? The draft well/scout well/sell high approach is the only way to win in a small market and advanced stats have a lot of value, but that's only half the battle. Give me someone who carries that out correctly. Instead we have a cheap owner combined with a half-baked strategy and look where we are. Hell, I'd respect them MORE if they cut down to a complete bare bones approach during lean years like the A's, Rays, and early '00s Marlins did then actually rolled the dice when they were in position to do so. But for as much as they talk about what it takes to win in a place like this, they can't actually do it. They never have a pipeline of young, cheap, adequate talent to fill the occasional hole on the roster (like the Twins always used to) and they act like the only way to do that is to have a giant payroll. I'm just tired of it. I respect him for granting these interviews but the fact that he has to do so in the first place tells you everything you need to know.

P.S. his explanations for the CC and Lee deals are rich. So he trades CC 3 weeks before the deadline because the package is just too good to pass up and Milwaukee might fall out of contention. And when that can't miss package produces exactly one average major league centerfielder, it's OK because hey, at least he's better than a draft pick! And the Lee deal is OK because other teams made crappy trades with star players too. Give me a break. Good GMs get value for their big trade chips, even if it's not superstar value. Gio Gonzalez and Trevor Cahill can't wipe 2008 CC and 2009 Lee's cleats, yet Billy Beane was somehow able to find good young pitching that ended up helping them instantly.
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Re: Great Q&A With Shapiro

Unread postby motherscratcher » Wed Oct 31, 2012 4:12 pm

Hallelujah, Holy Shit! Where's the Tylenol?

Nice rant dude. Enjoyed it. Agree with a lot of it. :cheers:
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Re: Great Q&A With Shapiro

Unread postby Adverb Harry » Wed Oct 31, 2012 4:39 pm

motherscratcher wrote:Hallelujah, Holy Shit! Where's the Tylenol?


Well, as for me, I want Shapiro brought right here, and I want to look him straight in the eye and I want to tell him what a cheap, lying, no-good, rotten, four-flushing, low-life, snake-licking, dirt-eating, inbred, overstuffed, ignorant, blood-sucking, dog-kissing, brainless, dickless, hopeless, heartless, fat-ass, bug-eyed, stiff-legged, spotty-lipped, worm-headed sack of monkey shit he is! ;-) ;) :wink:
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Re: Great Q&A With Shapiro

Unread postby 1Perry » Thu Nov 01, 2012 4:27 am

motherscratcher wrote:Please refer me to the link where Shapiro says something about Antonetti being a complete failure at his previous job, which I believe was Assistant GM. I don't remember that.

I do, however, remember him turning down at least 1 GM position for another club (I can't remember which one) and his name being on the short list for most GM openings the last 5 years or so.


Can one blame Shapiro for turning down a short term job? Anyone else that leads a team to 3 90 plus loss seasons out of 4 with the 4th still being a losing season gets fired.
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Re: Great Q&A With Shapiro

Unread postby gotribe31 » Thu Nov 01, 2012 7:12 am

1Perry wrote:
motherscratcher wrote:Please refer me to the link where Shapiro says something about Antonetti being a complete failure at his previous job, which I believe was Assistant GM. I don't remember that.

I do, however, remember him turning down at least 1 GM position for another club (I can't remember which one) and his name being on the short list for most GM openings the last 5 years or so.


Can one blame Shapiro for turning down a short term job? Anyone else that leads a team to 3 90 plus loss seasons out of 4 with the 4th still being a losing season gets fired.


Says the guy who thinks Antonetti was running the draft before he got promoted.
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