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Acceptable Stats for Young Players

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Acceptable Stats for Young Players

Unread postby andrew6586 » Wed Oct 24, 2012 9:51 am

I know that people were and still are upset with the last two years' fourth overall picks. Believe me, I am still outraged at the Waiters pick. Thompson was as horrible of a pick but we could have gotten more value there. Anyway, I wanted to get everyone's opinion on what would be acceptable out of the Cav's last three first round picks (Thompson, Waiters and Zeller). I am not talking about this season. God knows that Waiters is a project. However, in a year or two, what would you guys deam "acceptable"?

Thompson and Waiters will never live up to the fourth overall pick billing and I know that we can't expect Thompson to get 20 and 10 a night nor can we expect Waiters to drop 20 on a consistent basis. For me, I would be happy with 10 points and 8 rebounds a game from Thompson. I know that the number four overall pick should garner more production than that but I don't see him averaging much more.

Waiters is a whole other story. I honestly would be happy if he could get 12 a night and not be a liability on defense. That may be asking a lot from Deion though. He should have never been picked in the top 10.

I think that Zeller could turn out to be a solid role player. I would be perfectly happy with 12 points and 8 rebounds per night out of him. Although, he needs to put on a little weight first.

We all know Kyrie is a star on the rise but I worry, just like everyone else, about his supporting cast. Hopefully we can turn this thing around before his contract is up.
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Re: Acceptable Stats for Young Players

Unread postby JJN » Wed Oct 24, 2012 7:41 pm

I'm not too concerned about Waiters. It really depends on how many minutes he is playing, and how much he is handling the ball vs cutting. His defense has been good enough so far from what I have seen. Far more concerned with him taking off balance jumpers early in the clock.

TT has been pretty solid in the preseason, although his free throws still stink and he still needs to finish stronger. That said, I've seen a few legit moves out of him, including a baseline face-up jabstep jumper from about 12 feet. He isn't the second coming of Hakeem, but its only a lingering sense of dread when he catches the ball down low now instead of last season's overwhelming terror.

Without knowing who will be playing how many minutes, its really hard to come up with acceptable stat lines, but if TT can get 12 and 8 per 36 and Waiters can get 1.5 steals and >1 assist to turnover ratio per 36, that would be acceptable.
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Re: Acceptable Stats for Young Players

Unread postby Prosecutor » Wed Oct 24, 2012 8:58 pm

It depends on whether these guys are starting and how many minutes they're getting.

Last night Zeller started, played 29 minutes, and went 5-for-8 from the field for 13 points. He chipped in seven boards and a couple of steals and assists. And this was mainly against Roy Hibbert, Indy's All-Star 7'2" center.

If Zeller ends up starting at center, I think 13 and 7 in about 30 minutes is fine.

Waiters needs to score, period. You don't use the #4 pick on a 2 guard who can't fill it up. That being said, the Cavs have a point guard who scores much more than the typical PG, so you don't need as many points from your off guard. But he should be at least a 15 ppg guy when he gets up to speed.

Thompson was a #4 pick in a weak year. As a power forward, I'm looking more at defense and rebounds than scoring. But he's still a #4, so I'd expect no less than 14 and 10 with a 50%+ shooting percentage. Especially since he should get 3-4 dunks per game just off KI penetration and a couple more he creates himself with offensive boards.
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Re: Acceptable Stats for Young Players

Unread postby mattvan1 » Wed Oct 24, 2012 9:27 pm

Prosecutor wrote:It depends on whether these guys are starting and how many minutes they're getting.



JFC they were drafted 4th OVERALL for fucks sake and we just won a total of 40 games over two years and you preface your assessment with "it depends on whether thee guys are starting"

Just execute the entire FO and scouting department now. Seriously. Have we lowered our expectations so much that we wonder if the 4th overall pick will start for a team that won 19 games last year?
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Re: Acceptable Stats for Young Players

Unread postby Gradysmanldy » Wed Oct 24, 2012 10:51 pm

Agreed. Here's this for acceptable: If Waiters has better stats than ANY of the other top ten picks, maybe he's bordering on NOT A COMPLETE FUCKING DISASTER.

God, I hate this team. Already mad at myself in advance for watching 5 Cavs games this year, 15 hours i'll never get back.....and in one of them Waiters will have hisself a marginal game with like 16/5 pts/assists and ill think, "Maybe he can be something useful?"

And then i'll long for the days of Langdon/Welsch/Knight/etc in the competence department.

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Re: Acceptable Stats for Young Players

Unread postby JJN » Wed Oct 24, 2012 11:22 pm

Based on last year, Byron Scott doesn't play his rookies all that much. Kyrie only played 30.5 minutes last year, and the only month that he played no.1 pick minutes was January. (CP3 played 36 min his rookie season). I don't know how much of this was due to the crazy schedule, but that was most likely a factor.

The SG spot is open for Waiters to soak up a bunch of minutes, but Scott might play Gee or Miles at the 2 as a starter, or he might occasionally put Waiters in his doghouse. Harden has started 7 games in the three years he has been in the league (his rookie line was 10pts/3reb/2ast in 23min for comparison's sake). The front court is loaded, if not with talent, then at least with bodies. Zeller, Andy, TT, Leuer, Samardo, Casspi in smallball, Walton - obviously some won't play too much, but Leuer played well in the burn he got last year, and could open up the lanes for KI and DW better than anyone else in that front court.
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Re: Acceptable Stats for Young Players

Unread postby StewieG » Thu Oct 25, 2012 4:12 am

I don't care if Waiters starts or not, but I do want to see him get decent minutes. I'd like for him to show an ability to get to the rim and finish/get to the line, and I'd like to see him improve his form on his jumper (which is awful). Next year is where I hope for a big improvement from him.

Thompson I just want to not look like a clusterfuck on offense and defense.

Not exactly ringing endorsements of back-to-back 4th overall picks, and I hate Chris Grant for killing what should be enthusiasm for a young, up-and-coming team.

Zeller...6&4 would be fine with me.
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Re: Acceptable Stats for Young Players

Unread postby mattvan1 » Thu Oct 25, 2012 7:33 am

JJN wrote:Based on last year, Byron Scott doesn't play his rookies all that much. Kyrie only played 30.5 minutes last year, and the only month that he played no.1 pick minutes was January. (CP3 played 36 min his rookie season). I don't know how much of this was due to the crazy schedule, but that was most likely a factor.

The SG spot is open for Waiters to soak up a bunch of minutes, but Scott might play Gee or Miles at the 2 as a starter, or he might occasionally put Waiters in his doghouse. Harden has started 7 games in the three years he has been in the league (his rookie line was 10pts/3reb/2ast in 23min for comparison's sake). The front court is loaded, if not with talent, then at least with bodies. Zeller, Andy, TT, Leuer, Samardo, Casspi in smallball, Walton - obviously some won't play too much, but Leuer played well in the burn he got last year, and could open up the lanes for KI and DW better than anyone else in that front court.


Good point about the minutes - although Irving was only 19 years old when the season started.
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Re: Acceptable Stats for Young Players

Unread postby pup » Thu Oct 25, 2012 8:29 am

mattvan1 wrote:
JJN wrote:Based on last year, Byron Scott doesn't play his rookies all that much. Kyrie only played 30.5 minutes last year, and the only month that he played no.1 pick minutes was January. (CP3 played 36 min his rookie season). I don't know how much of this was due to the crazy schedule, but that was most likely a factor.

The SG spot is open for Waiters to soak up a bunch of minutes, but Scott might play Gee or Miles at the 2 as a starter, or he might occasionally put Waiters in his doghouse. Harden has started 7 games in the three years he has been in the league (his rookie line was 10pts/3reb/2ast in 23min for comparison's sake). The front court is loaded, if not with talent, then at least with bodies. Zeller, Andy, TT, Leuer, Samardo, Casspi in smallball, Walton - obviously some won't play too much, but Leuer played well in the burn he got last year, and could open up the lanes for KI and DW better than anyone else in that front court.


Good point about the minutes - although Irving was only 19 years old when the season started.


And had only played like 11 games in 2 years.
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Re: Acceptable Stats for Young Players

Unread postby Prosecutor » Fri Oct 26, 2012 9:25 am

mattvan1 wrote:
Prosecutor wrote:It depends on whether these guys are starting and how many minutes they're getting.



JFC they were drafted 4th OVERALL for fucks sake and we just won a total of 40 games over two years and you preface your assessment with "it depends on whether thee guys are starting"

Just execute the entire FO and scouting department now. Seriously. Have we lowered our expectations so much that we wonder if the 4th overall pick will start for a team that won 19 games last year?


It's not my "assessment" that they might not start. There's been some reporting that Scott wants his rookies to "earn" their starting jobs and that Miles might start over Waiters, at least initially. Considering how poorly Waiters has been playing, that looks like a realistic possibility.

Against Indiana, Zeller and AV started at C and PF, with TT coming off the bench. Zeller looked good and Andy's natural position is PF, so I could see Scott going with that, especially if they want to showcase Andy for a trade. Zeller is a legit center who runs the floor and has some offensive skills, so they might want to accelerate his development and try to move Andy for some scoring punch on the wings.

But no matter who starts, I agree they need to make sure TT and Waiters get significant minutes.
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Re: Acceptable Stats for Young Players

Unread postby JJN » Fri Oct 26, 2012 2:43 pm

Another thing to keep in mind with minutes is that we need to show our trade assets. Just like last year, where Sessions probably played a bit more than he should have so we could raise his trade value, this year we have the same situation. Andy should be eating up a lot of front court minutes if we plan on trading him. If Gibson is going to be traded, and has regained some of that sweet shooting, tough D that we have seen out of him, he should be eating up some more minutes at SG.
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Re: Acceptable Stats for Young Players

Unread postby Larvell Blanks » Sat Oct 27, 2012 9:34 am

Prosecutor wrote:
mattvan1 wrote:
Prosecutor wrote:It depends on whether these guys are starting and how many minutes they're getting.



JFC they were drafted 4th OVERALL for fucks sake and we just won a total of 40 games over two years and you preface your assessment with "it depends on whether thee guys are starting"

Just execute the entire FO and scouting department now. Seriously. Have we lowered our expectations so much that we wonder if the 4th overall pick will start for a team that won 19 games last year?


It's not my "assessment" that they might not start. There's been some reporting that Scott wants his rookies to "earn" their starting jobs and that Miles might start over Waiters, at least initially. Considering how poorly Waiters has been playing, that looks like a realistic possibility.

Against Indiana, Zeller and AV started at C and PF, with TT coming off the bench. Zeller looked good and Andy's natural position is PF, so I could see Scott going with that, especially if they want to showcase Andy for a trade. Zeller is a legit center who runs the floor and has some offensive skills, so they might want to accelerate his development and try to move Andy for some scoring punch on the wings. But no matter who starts, I agree they need to make sure TT and Waiters get significant minutes.



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Re: Acceptable Stats for Young Players

Unread postby pup » Sat Oct 27, 2012 11:23 am

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