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Chip Kelly or Nick Saban

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Re: Chip Kelly or Nick Saban

Unread postby Hikohadon » Tue Oct 23, 2012 9:31 am

leadpipe wrote:
FUDU wrote:Weeden has been better than meh. He's shit the bed once, his first game, he's allowed. He shows improvement from week to week in at least one area. Frankly he is almost exactly as advertised. His weakness coming in IS his weakness, his strengths coming in ARE his strengths.

If you didn't know where he was picked in the draft, or know where Luck was picked in the draft, you certainly couldn't tell the difference from the game this past Sunday.


Actually you could. Pretty easily. One guy is going thru progressions better than half the quarterbacks in the league already. And this is no knock on Weeden, and recognizing the mistakes and issues that come along with being a rookie at that position - but if you can't tell the difference between Andrew Luck and Brandon Weeden up to this point in the season, I'm not sure what to say.

Perhaps a better comparison, to leave Brandon Weeden and homerism out for a second - and compare to overall number one's.....Andrew Luck is waaaay ahead of Sam Bradford in recognizing things at the line, going thru progressions and understanding what's going on around him. And Bradford is ahead of Weeden.

And Luck, like Weeden has a lotta garbage around him. Rookie TE's to depend on, old Reggie Wayne, and no running backs you've ever heard of. An offensive line issues. And he'll still triple that teams win total from last year.

I know a PLAYA when I see a PLAYA.


Other than everything you wrote, I completely agree with your assessment.
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Re: Chip Kelly or Nick Saban

Unread postby peeker643 » Tue Oct 23, 2012 10:13 am

FUDU wrote:His weakness coming in IS his weakness, his strengths coming in ARE his strengths.

That's deep, Donny. Very poignant. And says absolutely fucking nothing

If you didn't know where he was picked in the draft, or know where Luck was picked in the draft, you certainly couldn't tell the difference from the game this past Sunday.

I believe this is true for you. I honestly do. But this is not a thread to poison with more Weeden analysis. It's a legit thread about the potential next coach with legit names being bandied about. If you want to poision a non-Weeden thread with more Weeden talk, maybe we can do it in the Browns in the Wild Card Hunt thread. Much more fitting...
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Re: Chip Kelly or Nick Saban

Unread postby Gradysmanldy » Tue Oct 23, 2012 11:00 am

I wish I knew more about the league to know where the next Leslie Frazier or Sean Peyton(sp?) is hiding. There has to be an innovative offensive mind somewhere that hasn't been tapped yet; someone who calls the plays, has experienced success, and when combined with a legit defensively minded DC, could get the most out of what he has here.
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Re: Chip Kelly or Nick Saban

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Tue Oct 23, 2012 1:35 pm

Tressel has a five year show-cause ban. He's not taking any job for a long ass time.
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Re: Chip Kelly or Nick Saban

Unread postby peeker643 » Tue Oct 23, 2012 2:00 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:Tressel has a five year show-cause ban. He's not taking any job for a long ass time.


Not in the NFL, he's already served his time ;-) ;) :wink:

And no, fwiw, I'm not advocating that guy for any NFL job. Great coach for OSU for the time he was here. Just seems like a different era though. Like he was here when I was 10yrs old and watching Pete Johnson and Archie Griffin play. :tfh:
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Re: Chip Kelly or Nick Saban

Unread postby FUDU » Tue Oct 23, 2012 3:13 pm

Hikohadon wrote:
leadpipe wrote:
FUDU wrote:Weeden has been better than meh. He's shit the bed once, his first game, he's allowed. He shows improvement from week to week in at least one area. Frankly he is almost exactly as advertised. His weakness coming in IS his weakness, his strengths coming in ARE his strengths.

If you didn't know where he was picked in the draft, or know where Luck was picked in the draft, you certainly couldn't tell the difference from the game this past Sunday.


Actually you could. Pretty easily. One guy is going thru progressions better than half the quarterbacks in the league already. And this is no knock on Weeden, and recognizing the mistakes and issues that come along with being a rookie at that position - but if you can't tell the difference between Andrew Luck and Brandon Weeden up to this point in the season, I'm not sure what to say.

Perhaps a better comparison, to leave Brandon Weeden and homerism out for a second - and compare to overall number one's.....Andrew Luck is waaaay ahead of Sam Bradford in recognizing things at the line, going thru progressions and understanding what's going on around him. And Bradford is ahead of Weeden.

And Luck, like Weeden has a lotta garbage around him. Rookie TE's to depend on, old Reggie Wayne, and no running backs you've ever heard of. An offensive line issues. And he'll still triple that teams win total from last year.

I know a PLAYA when I see a PLAYA.


Other than everything you wrote, I completely agree with your assessment.


LOL, yeah I'm really not sure what to make of your post LP other than you most likely didn't watch the game, and if you did, your couch certainly wasn't located at the 50 yard line of Lucas Oil Stadium...was it? You're going with progressions, from your living room couch, gimme a break, you should have got in on the presidential debate with that BS. But thank God YOU know a playa when you see one, maybe TCF can put that on the about us page.

Sunday's game was a nice display of talent by both QBs neither looked like world beaters and neither even sniffed sucking. But the notable differences between the two on Sunday were:

A) Luck was able to run for two easy TD's, not a huge endorsement mind you b/c it was OUR D, but to his credit he made the play(s).

B) The better throws, more clutch throws WERE made by Wheeden.

If Gordon catches that deep ball we most likely aren't even discussing this.

Frankly Luck had the two worst throws of the day when he missed some open guys by quite a bit, with one pass going way off route OOB (not to mention the biggest blunder as well with the fumble). Luck had numerous completions to wide open guys, while most of our pass catchers were covered well even when Weeden did complete the pass.

Hell Luck hasn't been overwhelming more impressive than Weeden for the whole season so far (I've watched all Weeds games and all but 1 of Luck's). Luck hasn't shit the bed like Weeden did in one game but otherwise Weeden has been more consistent since week 1. Ironically they're ratings are identical, that counts the notorious 5.1.

Luck is for certain the better prospect and justifiably the number one pick, but that was not evident from Sunday's game.
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Re: Chip Kelly or Nick Saban

Unread postby peeker643 » Tue Oct 23, 2012 4:13 pm

Honestly and truthfully, Sunday night's bedwetting vs. the Steelers aside, I think I'd rather have Jay Gruden as Head Coach of the Browns than his brother.

So add him to my list of guys that would not only strengthen at least one component of this team but also weaken a division rival. And then I'd wonder if Brad Seely is available as an Asst Head Coach and potential ST Coordinator (although it would be a lateral from San Fran if that was the role/title).
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Re: Chip Kelly or Nick Saban

Unread postby pup » Tue Oct 23, 2012 4:30 pm

Might not weaken a rival, but it can pull some of their blood.

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Re: Chip Kelly or Nick Saban

Unread postby leadpipe » Tue Oct 23, 2012 4:39 pm

One guy I believe will be much better the second time around is Josh McDaniels. Should have never been given what he was given in Denver, and shouldn't have been making GM decisions. But in a good organization, where he's a head coach period. I'd be interested.

Much more interested in a Cowher type, or anyone that's gonna bring a fullback with him.
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Re: Chip Kelly or Nick Saban

Unread postby Hikohadon » Tue Oct 23, 2012 4:44 pm

peeker643 wrote:Honestly and truthfully, Sunday night's bedwetting vs. the Steelers aside, I think I'd rather have Jay Gruden as Head Coach of the Browns than his brother.


I've been on this train of thought for a while. Although I'd rather have a LOT of people than Jon Gruden.

Jay, interested. Jon, :bunny:
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Re: Chip Kelly or Nick Saban

Unread postby Hikohadon » Tue Oct 23, 2012 4:47 pm

pup wrote:Might not weaken a rival, but it can pull some of their blood.

http://www.azcardinals.com/team/coaches/ray-horton/698a48bf-932c-4177-aa12-b7afe9196aaa


I like him a lot too. And if you look at him, at least the pressers should be more interesting.

Drawback - he's a staunch 3-4 guy, so we're looking at a total D reboot, which I'm not convinced is a necessity (esp if they got a legit pass rush threat for the RDE position).
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Re: Chip Kelly or Nick Saban

Unread postby peeker643 » Tue Oct 23, 2012 4:53 pm

leadpipe wrote:One guy I believe will be much better the second time around is Josh McDaniels. Should have never been given what he was given in Denver, and shouldn't have been making GM decisions. But in a good organization, where he's a head coach period. I'd be interested.

Much more interested in a Cowher type, or anyone that's gonna bring a fullback with him.


Kind of my line of thinking with Cam Cameron as well, though he has fewer excuses in the way of GM capacity. But he was in a dysfunctional situation in Miami as well. And part of what interests me in guys like Cameron, Gruden, McDaniels types id the QBs they had to work with with.

Not getting back to the Weeden critique, but guys like Flacco and Dalton are more similar to Weeden than someone who has a Rodgers or RGIII to build around in that they excel more in the pocket than out and they have (to one extent or other) a solid running game to rely on (i.e. Richardson v. Rice/Green-Ellis). I know BJGE isn't Rice (nor is Richardson at this point) but the system would be similar. Also like what Gruden has done creatively with Bengals passing game. Yeah, it helps with AJ Green lined up, but still...
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Re: Chip Kelly or Nick Saban

Unread postby motherscratcher » Tue Oct 23, 2012 5:49 pm

I was thinking about mcDaniels the other day. I think there are a lot of reasons to give him a look. He was handed that Denver job and a bag of shit exploded right away in his hands when he hurt little Jay Cutlers feelings. Ended up with Orton as QB, managed to win a few games to start the season and expectations went sky high.

I'm not absolving him of the clusterfuck that it turned into, but some of it was beyond his control. And Billy Boy thinks highly enough of him tonwelcome hm right back into the fold as OC. That has to mean something.

It seems like a lot of these guys figure it out on their 2nd or 3rd go round. Mangini never had time to think about what went wrong in NY. mcDaniels got to go back to a stable org and think about this stuff. I'll bet he and Bill have had discussions about what he did right/wrong and what he should do differently when he inevitably gets another chance.

Young, energetic, smart, and not on his first go round. There's a lot to like about McDaniels IMO

I also know a guy who says he heard from a guy that Josh was house hunting in the Barberton area. ;-) ;) :wink:
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Re: Chip Kelly or Nick Saban

Unread postby FUDU » Tue Oct 23, 2012 6:14 pm

Josh's wife is from here.
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Re: Chip Kelly or Nick Saban

Unread postby Gradysmanldy » Tue Oct 23, 2012 7:57 pm

motherscratcher wrote:I was funking about mcDaniels the other day. I think there are a lot of reasons to give him a look. He was handed that Denver job and a bag of shit exploded right away in his hands when he hurt little Jay Cutlers feelings. Ended up with Orton as QB, managed to win a few games to start the season and expectations went sky high.

I'm not absolving him of the clusterfuck that it turned into, but some of it was beyond his control. And Billy Boy thinks highly enough of him tonwelcome hm right back into the fold as OC. That has to mean something.

It seems like a lot of these guys figure it out on their 2nd or 3rd go round. Mangini never had time to think about what went wrong in NY. mcDaniels got to go back to a stable org and think about this stuff. I'll bet he and Bill have had discussions about what he did right/wrong and what he should do differently when he inevitably gets another chance.

Young, energetic, smart, and not on his first go round. There's a lot to like about McDaniels IMO

I also know a guy who says he heard from a guy that Josh was house hunting in the Barberton area. ;-) ;) :wink:


McDaniels was the first guy that came to my mind, too. Proven offensive talent, knows how to build the system to his players. Would be a departure from the WCO, but I'm not sure that I mind that; I think these current players are better suited for something like what Chud or Payton rolls with.

Like to see Castillo in here as the O-line coach; he was great in that facility before (mind-bendingly) getting rushed into the DC job in Philly.

Wonder if Norv has any assistants worth half a crap when he gets canned.

Question: Which DC had the better chance to succeed, over time, given the right top flight talent.....Rob Ryan or Dick Jauron? Both seem to have their moments, DJ seems to be the only one with legitimate success. (prior to Browns days) I feel like I miss Ryan and his schemes, but his defenses ended up sucking and blowing it on big plays in the end every time, and that's carried over to Dallas.
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Re: Chip Kelly or Nick Saban

Unread postby fairvis » Tue Oct 23, 2012 9:27 pm

McD is still young, and has serious offensive chops. Him being a Canton McKinley and JCU grad would provide an instant connection with the fanbase. And maybe the third Belichick disciple would be the charm. Cleveland may be able to pull enough heartstrings (and open the pocketbook) to get him here, and Banner would definitely not want him to have personnel control.

The only thing that I wouldn't be able to deal with would be the Tebow talk that would result from his hiring.
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Re: Chip Kelly or Nick Saban

Unread postby mattvan1 » Tue Oct 23, 2012 9:53 pm

fairvis wrote:McD is still young, and has serious offensive chops. Him being a Canton McKinley and JCU grad would provide an instant connection with the fanbase. And maybe the third Belichick disciple would be the charm. Cleveland may be able to pull enough heartstrings (and open the pocketbook) to get him here, and Banner would definitely not want him to have personnel control.

The only thing that I wouldn't be able to deal with would be the Tebow talk that would result from his hiring.


I'd prefer a guy who didn't lose his entire team, who didn't go 5-17 at the end of his tenure, and who didn't alienate every talented player on the roster. Very few people can work with/under Belichick and go elsewhere and be successful. The NFL is littered with guys from the Mr. Bill tree who have gone on to dismal careers on their own.
Eric Mangini, Scott Pioli, Romeo Crennel, Josh McDaniels, Charlie Weiss to name a few.

I'll pass on McDaniels.
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Re: Chip Kelly or Nick Saban

Unread postby motherscratcher » Tue Oct 23, 2012 10:02 pm

All legitimate points.

But we've been waiting for a long time to hear someone you actually DO like.
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Re: Chip Kelly or Nick Saban

Unread postby mattvan1 » Tue Oct 23, 2012 10:27 pm

motherscratcher wrote:All legitimate points.

But we've been waiting for a long time to hear someone you actually DO like.


Touché. I think what you are forgetting is that I didn't dislike Shurmur (I had no idea who he was) but I hated the process in how he was hired - no due dilligence, no interviews, same agent who shall not be named. It was a lazy bullshit exercise and embodied poor decision making. And really, that's all I want from my CEO - good decisions. Do a proper search, talk to peeps, conduct interviews, have a system to rank the candidates, factor in your gut instinct, and pick a leader. Not some bullshit latest fad Xs and Os guy - that's what your co-ordinators do. Get a guy the players will respect, a guy who has a vision, who is organized, detailed, and who you feel makes good decisions and knows how to hire and delegate.

If I start giving out names then Banner is calling me and I really don't have the time for that guy. Not right now. at least.
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Re: Chip Kelly or Nick Saban

Unread postby Hikohadon » Tue Oct 23, 2012 10:33 pm

I would like McDaniels better if his first go around wasn't such a total abortion.

If they hired him, I'd give him the benefit of the doubt that he learned from his first try, but I'd still be a little frightened of backsliding.
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Re: Chip Kelly or Nick Saban

Unread postby Triple-S » Wed Oct 24, 2012 1:28 am

Honest question, but did I miss the memo where Bill Cowher was suddenly interested in this gig?

I keep coming across that on sports talk, and a few message boards.

do people honestly think he wants to get away from yucking it up with Shannon Sharpe every sunday?

I can maybe see every other name that's been brought up in this thread as being plausible except him.
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Re: Chip Kelly or Nick Saban

Unread postby justmebd » Wed Oct 24, 2012 9:49 am

McDaniels suffers from the same disease every other disciple of BB suffers from: Arrogant Asshole Syndrome.

Mangini SHOULD have been a great coach, but he thought he could do everything, and that being on BB's staff gave him carte blanche to go insane. Ditto McDaniels.

I'd pass on McDaniels because, to me, there's too great a chance this guy will regress back to "Fuck You, I know everything" mode and blow everything up just because Fuck You I'm Smart.

The amount of destruction BB disciples cause in an amazingly short amount of time is staggering.

*NOTE: I don't consider Crennell or Weis BB Disciples because they had career prior to their employment under BB.

*NOTE #2: In spite of everything I said, I think Mangini would make a great college coach. His mentality and desire to control everything works much better at that level.
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Re: Chip Kelly or Nick Saban

Unread postby motherscratcher » Wed Oct 24, 2012 10:25 am

D you have an example besides Mangini and McDaniels?
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Re: Chip Kelly or Nick Saban

Unread postby fairvis » Wed Oct 24, 2012 10:35 am

Triple-S wrote:Honest question, but did I miss the memo where Bill Cowher was suddenly interested in this gig?.


Cowher wouldn't be. No reason to. He's pulling in serious megabucks with CBS working one morning a week for 20-some weekends a year. He's been doing for years, and I wouldn't expect him to stop for any job without the Brinks truck being backed up.

McD certainly has the stink of that disaster in Denver on him. But the main options (to me) seem to be Carmichael or Fewell, and they may have better jobs to look for.
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Re: Chip Kelly or Nick Saban

Unread postby Hikohadon » Wed Oct 24, 2012 10:38 am

fairvis wrote:
Triple-S wrote:Honest question, but did I miss the memo where Bill Cowher was suddenly interested in this gig?.


Cowher wouldn't be. No reason to. He's pulling in serious megabucks with CBS working one morning a week for 20-some weekends a year. He's been doing for years, and I wouldn't expect him to stop for any job without the Brinks truck being backed up.


Which is Reason Numero Uno we shouldn't be interested in him.
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Re: Chip Kelly or Nick Saban

Unread postby Hikohadon » Wed Oct 24, 2012 10:42 am

Like I put in my article, the competition for coaching candidates will probably be KC, SD, Philly, Carolina, and maybe Dallas.

All of which (except KC) might be considered more attractive destinations.
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Re: Chip Kelly or Nick Saban

Unread postby pup » Wed Oct 24, 2012 11:05 am

The problem with having an arrogant asshole who wants to control everything is giving them the power and ability to control everything.

If you don't give them that power, they cannot control everything. So they need to decide, be on board or stay the fuck out.

Since most of the great head coaches are most likely arrogant assholes, that is a quality that should be looked for. The top of the organization just needs to be strong enough to limit what they get to be an arrogant asshole about.

I was not considering McDaniels, but he does make a lot of sense to be in the search.
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Re: Chip Kelly or Nick Saban

Unread postby mattvan1 » Wed Oct 24, 2012 11:52 am

pup wrote:The problem with having an arrogant asshole who wants to control everything is giving them the power and ability to control everything.

If you don't give them that power, they cannot control everything. So they need to decide, be on board or stay the fuck out.

Since most of the great head coaches are most likely arrogant assholes, that is a quality that should be looked for. The top of the organization just needs to be strong enough to limit what they get to be an arrogant asshole about.

I was not considering McDaniels, but he does make a lot of sense to be in the search.


Well, there are two types of arrogant assholes. The first that knows what they are doing and win, and the type that is clueless and crash and burn. Maybe McDaniels learned from his past mistakes, but when he got run from Denver he was clearly in the second group.

Plus, when you have an aa as CEO, not sure how well another aa as HC is going to work out :tfh:
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