Jimmy Cleveland

[motherscratcher]

RE Burke:

I used to be pretty pissed about Burke and eventually I found out a few facts that put things in perspective. Bottom line is it seems doubtful that it will ever be developed.

1.) It is built on a landfill which makes it unsuitable for most any kind of construction.

2.) The FAA uses it as an emergency airport for Hopkins. Post 9/11 the rules were rewritten about such things and it's my understanding that Burke is the only airport that fits the bill.

Burke is vrey important for another reason, if you want business you need a business airport nearby. Having a downtown airport is a big advantage. It averages almost 200 take-offs/landings a day, imagine adding those into Hopkin's air traffic. Businesses maintain aircraft because commrcial flying just doesn't get it.

It's also very important with medical flights into Cleveland Clinic and University Hospital. Cleveland Clinic has a fleet of jets that fly all over the world bringing patients ($$$$$$$$) here. It's also an important maintenance hub for the rotary wing air medical flight services.

Back to Triple's post, how much money does the airshow bring into Cleveland every year? How much did the IndyCar races bring in? Those were three day events, and attracted over a hundred thou$and people. Not many from this forum obviously, but IndyCar Fan money is just as good as anyone else's.

How close to Cleveland does it need to be? Could something like Lost Nation or Mayfield serve the same purpose for business/medical? Or are they not big enough?

[Hikohadon]

RE Burke:

I used to be pretty pissed about Burke and eventually I found out a few facts that put things in perspective. Bottom line is it seems doubtful that it will ever be developed.

1.) It is built on a landfill which makes it unsuitable for most any kind of construction.

2.) The FAA uses it as an emergency airport for Hopkins. Post 9/11 the rules were rewritten about such things and it's my understanding that Burke is the only airport that fits the bill.

Burke is vrey important for another reason, if you want business you need a business airport nearby. Having a downtown airport is a big advantage. It averages almost 200 take-offs/landings a day, imagine adding those into Hopkin's air traffic. Businesses maintain aircraft because commrcial flying just doesn't get it.

It's also very important with medical flights into Cleveland Clinic and University Hospital. Cleveland Clinic has a fleet of jets that fly all over the world bringing patients ($$$$$$$$) here. It's also an important maintenance hub for the rotary wing air medical flight services.

Back to Triple's post, how much money does the airshow bring into Cleveland every year? How much did the IndyCar races bring in? Those were three day events, and attracted over a hundred thou$and people. Not many from this forum obviously, but IndyCar Fan money is just as good as anyone else's.

All great points, but why not just build another small buisness airport near by, that doesn't sit on prime lake front real estate?

This. Every city needs a dump, but you don't need to put it downtown.

[Spin]

RE Burke:

I used to be pretty pissed about Burke and eventually I found out a few facts that put things in perspective. Bottom line is it seems doubtful that it will ever be developed.

1.) It is built on a landfill which makes it unsuitable for most any kind of construction.

2.) The FAA uses it as an emergency airport for Hopkins. Post 9/11 the rules were rewritten about such things and it's my understanding that Burke is the only airport that fits the bill.

Burke is vrey important for another reason, if you want business you need a business airport nearby. Having a downtown airport is a big advantage. It averages almost 200 take-offs/landings a day, imagine adding those into Hopkin's air traffic. Businesses maintain aircraft because commrcial flying just doesn't get it.

It's also very important with medical flights into Cleveland Clinic and University Hospital. Cleveland Clinic has a fleet of jets that fly all over the world bringing patients ($$$$$$$$) here. It's also an important maintenance hub for the rotary wing air medical flight services.

Back to Triple's post, how much money does the airshow bring into Cleveland every year? How much did the IndyCar races bring in? Those were three day events, and attracted over a hundred thou$and people. Not many from this forum obviously, but IndyCar Fan money is just as good as anyone else's.

How close to Cleveland does it need to be? Could something like Lost Nation or Mayfield serve the same purpose for business/medical? Or are they not big enough?

They're big enough but too far away.

Being downtown is a big plus for business. Columbus has several smaller airports (Rickenbacher, OSU, Bolton), competing with cities like that would be tough with a business airport a half hour away.

If I were king for a day I would relocate/level sparsely populated neighborhoods and build a new business airport near the medical corridor. Close enough to downtown, close enough to the major hospitals, and it opens up the site of Burke for other uses.

But, relocating neighborhoods is just about impossible. Just look at the disjointed freeways (490 was suppose to go through University Circle and up to I-90, the ramp from I-71 to W. 65th St was suppose to be a freeway to I-90). Hell the Akron mayor wanted to destroy the innerbelt and restore the area to the ghetto it was before it was built.

[YahooFanChicago]

Here is how you get something done.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meigs_Field

That is exactly what I was thinking about....I remember when Mayor Daley did that to Meigs field...1 am on a Sunday night/Monday Morning. Woke up on Monday morning and all of the news channels were up in arms talking about Daley being a dictator and a jerk. 99% of the city though was supportive of it though and very happy about it. Some private plane D-bags were pissed and it gave the Daley haters ammunition but it was the right thing.

Cleveland's mayor should do the same thing. Some D-bags would bitch but 99% of the city would love it --particularly if they had a good plan on how to use the land and if they could get a lot of it financed through private funds.

[FUDU]

All great points, but why not just build another small buisness airport near by, that doesn't sit on prime lake front real estate?

Not trying to be a dick here Gov (I know too late) but feel free to start reading from that that long list of viable spots for the new airport site.

[Hikohadon]

I admittedly don't know Cleveland that well, but having driven from downtown to university circle plenty of times, this area seems ripe for being leveled.

Airport would fit too (barely).

[peeker643]

4th busiest airport in Ohio. Who knew? City does own it so they could scuttle it Daley-style if they so chose.

Long term it'd bring more revenue if it was part of a Navy Pier-lite type thing. Wouldn't want to see condos or that kind of shit though. It being the FAA designated Hopkins reliever makes me wonder if AKR/CAN is close enough to handle those chores, whatever they are, or if Cuahoga County Airport in Richmond Heights could accomodate most of the Burke-type traffic.

[Govbarney]

All great points, but why not just build another small buisness airport near by, that doesn't sit on prime lake front real estate?

Not trying to be a dick here Gov (I know too late) but feel free to start reading from that that long list of viable spots for the new airport site.

Fare enough , City planning is not my specialty , but I am bored at work today so I looked into it. Burke takes up 251.2 Acres worth of space. So using a the Area calculator map at http://www.freemaptools.com/area-calculator.htm I attempted to find some swaths of land at least that size that met the following criteria:
1) Close proximity to downtown
2) Nothing of too much value already there (e.g. lots of abandoned industry/ low value residential area's)

I found two prime locals:
A) The 329 acre rectangle East of E 55th st, South of Quincy Ave, West of E 89th St, and North of Woodland Ave. Not much of value currently exists there that isn't foreclosed, or abandoned. The two downsides of this location are you would have to re-rout a major railroad, and the cost of demolition and environmental cleanup of existing sites would be high.
B) Site two is a 250 Acre plot of land west of Harvard Rd and East of the Washington Golf Course. Nothing but vacant land occupies that site now, however I am sure it it a environmental nite-mare because of the heavy industry that used to occupy that site, that being said there is very little land in that part of Cleveland that isn't far from being a superfund site.

[peeker643]

All great points, but why not just build another small buisness airport near by, that doesn't sit on prime lake front real estate?

Not trying to be a dick here Gov (I know too late) but feel free to start reading from that that long list of viable spots for the new airport site.

Fare enough , City planning is not my specialty , but I am bored at work today so I looked into it. Burke takes up 251.2 Acres worth of space. So using a the Area calculator map at http://www.freemaptools.com/area-calculator.htm I attempted to find some swaths of land at least that size that met the following criteria:
1) Close proximity to downtown
2) Nothing of too much value already there (e.g. lots of abandoned industry/ low value residential area's)

I found two prime locals:
A) The 329 acre rectangle East of E 55th st, South of Quincy Ave, West of E 89th St, and North of Woodland Ave. Not much of value currently exists there that isn't foreclosed, or abandoned. The two downsides of this location are you would have to re-rout a major railroad, and the cost of demolition and environmental cleanup of existing sites would be high.
B) Site two is a 250 Acre plot of land west of Harvard Rd and East of the Washington Golf Course. Nothing but vacant land occupies that site now, however I am sure it it a environmental nite-mare because of the heavy industry that used to occupy that site, that being said there is very little land in that part of Cleveland that isn't far from being a superfund site.

Both those sites also offer added entertainment in that whomever heads there or lands there has to try and de-plane and reach their ultimate destination without being gunned down, knifed or becoming a crack addict before they reach their rental car.

[Govbarney]

Both those sites also offer added entertainment in that whomever heads there or lands there has to try and de-plane and reach their ultimate destination without being gunned down, knifed or becoming a crack addict before they reach their rental car.

Well... good point, but I didn't ad that to my criteria because I never had to deal with it when I was playing Sim City as a youngster.

[peeker643]

Both those sites also offer added entertainment in that whomever heads there or lands there has to try and de-plane and reach their ultimate destination without being gunned down, knifed or becoming a crack addict before they reach their rental car.

Well... good point, but I didn't ad that to my criteria because I never had to deal with it when I was playing Sim City as a youngster.

Just kidding. Putting something like that in an area like that is the first step to revitalizing that area.... or at least scattering the people who would shoot you, knife you or sell you crack. They always have somewhere to go though. Mostly the Youngstown-area

[FUDU]

Hey I'm all for that type of thinking though, as mentioned, compared to what occupies those lands now, friggin go for it.

Just as long as all the trouble heads east I am A.O.K. with it. Hell I say just make the entire east side of NEO an airport, Willoughby, Madison, Twinsburg, who needs em.

[LarsHancock]

You are all barking up the wrong tree with Burke.

The shoreway nicely cuts off any useful access to Burke. It would be a major engineering project to reclaim that space and make it commercial - you ever try to get in and out of there after a Browns game? No way it could stand the traffic that a thriving commercial area would provide. Plus, as mentioned, it does have uses that help the city.

The real area of development is west of the stadium. Do a Google Maps of Cleveland. Right around the E&Y tower is where the revitalization should occur, and there is active development in that area with the tower as the seed. You can go out to the lake on the west side of the stadium and take over those completely wasted areas with a nice commercial area ala Navy Pier, and then expand development to Whiskey Island once things pick up. Right at the mouth of the Cuyahoga is some prime real estate that is completely wasted much more than Burke.

The city is working that, but such large scale investments will take time. But I'd be willing to wager the area west of the stadium will be thriving in another 10 years, and a model for urban revitalization across the globe.

[southernflyer]

All great points, but why not just build another small buisness airport near by, that doesn't sit on prime lake front real estate?

Why isn't Cuyahoga County airport an alternative for Burke, especially since it is only 10 more miles away from the Clinic? Using a heliport, there might be a couple minutes difference. You could even build a heliport for Burke to transport executives to/from CLE or Cuyahoga county airports. Continental Airlines contracted a service to do that between Newark and downtown Manhattan a few years ago.

Lorain County airport could get their runway expanded 1,200 feet to match Burke's longer runway and upgrade their landing systems.

I think the problem is not only Burke, but the shoreway cutting off the rest of the city from 500-1,500 feet of the lakefront for miles at a time. They are correcting (at least attempting to) that problem on the western side to Lakewood, but it would be more difficult to reroute I-90 to the east.

[Govbarney]

All great points, but why not just build another small buisness airport near by, that doesn't sit on prime lake front real estate?

Why isn't Cuyahoga County airport an alternative for Burke, especially since it is only 10 more miles away from the Clinic? Using a heliport, there might be a couple minutes difference. You could even build a heliport for Burke to transport executives to/from CLE or Cuyahoga county airports. Continental Airlines contracted a service to do that between Newark and downtown Manhattan a few years ago.

Lorain County airport could get their runway expanded 1,200 feet to match Burke's longer runway and upgrade their landing systems.

I think the problem is not only Burke, but the shoreway cutting off the rest of the city from 500-1,500 feet of the lakefront for miles at a time. They are correcting (at least attempting to) that problem on the western side to Lakewood, but it would be more difficult to reroute I-90 to the east.

I believe good old Franky Jackson already has plan for converting that part of I-90 into some sort of tree lined boulevard if his North Shore re-vitalization happens.

Why CCA isn't a usable alternative to Burke is beyond me,,, I suppose because its not Big enough. I don't think its distance from the Cleveland Clinics main campus is a issue. Besides its closer to Hilcrest which receives more trama patients then the Clinics main campus.

[DeanSheen]

I believe good old Franky Jackson already has plan for converting that part of I-90 into some sort of tree lined boulevard if his North Shore re-vitalization happens.

That plan is dead. Right now they are working on the 76th bike/walk Edgewater access. The 73rd car\bike road tie in with the Edgewater interchange has received funding and construction will proceed shortly.

There is funding in place for the Clifton enhancement from Cleveland to Lakewood. The entire route will feature redesign of RTA stops, dedicated bus/bike lanes, and repaving of the Cleveland section of Clifton. The tree lined median 'may' happen in the Cleveland section but funding has not been fully acquired for that and I'm doubting it happens.

But the Shoreway being turned into a BLVD between Lake and W25th..... yeah, that's not gonna happen anytime soon.

[Fire Marshall Bill 2.0]

Why not do what a guy in Vegas I worked for did with a small piece of land between the Hughes Terminal and Scenic Air?

Build executive condo office/hangers

Basically corporate offices with your plane outside the back door

See: Ribiero, Johhny

[Spin]

All great points, but why not just build another small buisness airport near by, that doesn't sit on prime lake front real estate?

Why isn't Cuyahoga County airport an alternative for Burke, especially since it is only 10 more miles away from the Clinic? Using a heliport, there might be a couple minutes difference. You could even build a heliport for Burke to transport executives to/from CLE or Cuyahoga county airports. Continental Airlines contracted a service to do that between Newark and downtown Manhattan a few years ago.

Lorain County airport could get their runway expanded 1,200 feet to match Burke's longer runway and upgrade their landing systems.

Why CCA isn't a usable alternative to Burke is beyond me,,, I suppose because its not Big enough.

Too far away. Being downtown is a big plus for business. Columbus has several smaller airports (Rickenbacher, OSU, Bolton), competing with cities like that would be tough with a business airport a half hour away. Not to repeat myself.

Then there's the fixed wing medical services. And how close to capacity are those airports already running?

I don't think its distance from the Cleveland Clinics main campus is a issue. Besides its closer to Hilcrest which receives more trama patients then the Clinics main campus.

Trauma patients fly in by rotary wing, which don't need an airport. Just a helipad which most hospitals have. Although having the maintenance base close to Metro/Clinic/UH is a plus to those helicopter services.

The patients that fly into the Clinic and UH are fixed wing, turboprop or jet aircraft. They need an airport, and the closer to the hospital the better to cut down on all the things that go wrong during ground transport. Being at the County isn't going to make a difference in most transports.

Another question is whether there was hangar space and maintenance space out there for all of the aircraft that are based at Burke, plus what is already there. The Clinic itself has one huge hangar for it's fleet of jets.

All little things that add up to crap the planners have to consider when deciding to replace Burke.